Author Topic: buy bank stocks on the dip  (Read 117440 times)

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #650 on: May 29, 2024, 07:21:50 AM »
Speaking of $OZK

Down 10% pre-market this morning.   Citi analyst issued a double downgrade and raised warning flags about a construction loan (likely syndicated) they are leading in San Diego.  Also mentions an Atlanta project.

I'm only seeing snippits of the report so far, the San Diego project looks interesting.   Bank may have to put out something.


daverobev

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #651 on: May 29, 2024, 09:29:23 AM »
Speaking of $OZK

Down 10% pre-market this morning.   Citi analyst issued a double downgrade and raised warning flags about a construction loan (likely syndicated) they are leading in San Diego.  Also mentions an Atlanta project.

I'm only seeing snippits of the report so far, the San Diego project looks interesting.   Bank may have to put out something.

Down almost 16%...

Picked up a few prefs at -6% or so.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #652 on: May 29, 2024, 10:09:47 AM »
Two types of banks are having a rough go of it today:

CRE Banks (OZK, VLY)
Heavy long duration assets (ASB, FFIN)

A bad analyst report on a CRE bank combined with the 5yr pushing hard above 4.5%. 

Not seeing too much juicy out there yet, but pricing is getting better.  The OZKPAs are showing a 7.13% yield now.

daverobev

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #653 on: May 29, 2024, 11:41:59 AM »
Two types of banks are having a rough go of it today:

CRE Banks (OZK, VLY)
Heavy long duration assets (ASB, FFIN)

A bad analyst report on a CRE bank combined with the 5yr pushing hard above 4.5%. 

Not seeing too much juicy out there yet, but pricing is getting better.  The OZKPAs are showing a 7.13% yield now.

1.15 / 15.3 = ~7.5% no? Or have I forgotten how to do simple calculations. Again.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #654 on: May 29, 2024, 01:16:39 PM »
Two types of banks are having a rough go of it today:

CRE Banks (OZK, VLY)
Heavy long duration assets (ASB, FFIN)

A bad analyst report on a CRE bank combined with the 5yr pushing hard above 4.5%. 

Not seeing too much juicy out there yet, but pricing is getting better.  The OZKPAs are showing a 7.13% yield now.

1.15 / 15.3 = ~7.5% no? Or have I forgotten how to do simple calculations. Again.

You are correct, I failed to check Fidelity against my spreadsheet, it was using yesterday's quote price.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #655 on: May 29, 2024, 01:16:58 PM »
We're right at about the 12 month mark from when I paper-handed a few shares of OZKAP utterly at the bottom at about $13.25. Maybe I was just early. We'll see. :))

Note the dividend yield field on most websites does not usually update with prices. After today's dip, OZKAP's $1.16 annual dividend is now 7.6% of its much-diminished $15.26 price. That's tempting, because I really don't see OZK as the next NYCB, and the idea of buying a news-related dip is appealing. However I've been wrong before, and OZKAP has dipped below $15 a couple of times over the past year, so better opportunities may be on the way.

Maybe the winning strategy is to buy AFTER things have gone bad. ZIONO, VLYPO, CFG-D, and NYCB-A or U are all yielding well above 9%. Several other preferreds I watch are above 7%. Even USB-H is at 7.19%.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #656 on: May 29, 2024, 02:57:29 PM »
Maybe the winning strategy is to buy AFTER things have gone bad. ZIONO, VLYPO, CFG-D, and NYCB-A or U are all yielding well above 9%. Several other preferreds I watch are above 7%. Even USB-H is at 7.19%.

Unless you bought some First Republic preferreds like me...

grantmeaname

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #657 on: May 29, 2024, 03:55:39 PM »
As my boss loves to say, after that last drop there's only 100% more downside from here.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #658 on: May 29, 2024, 05:36:00 PM »
We're right at about the 12 month mark from when I paper-handed a few shares of OZKAP utterly at the bottom at about $13.25. Maybe I was just early. We'll see. :))

Note the dividend yield field on most websites does not usually update with prices. After today's dip, OZKAP's $1.16 annual dividend is now 7.6% of its much-diminished $15.26 price. That's tempting, because I really don't see OZK as the next NYCB, and the idea of buying a news-related dip is appealing. However I've been wrong before, and OZKAP has dipped below $15 a couple of times over the past year, so better opportunities may be on the way.

Maybe the winning strategy is to buy AFTER things have gone bad. ZIONO, VLYPO, CFG-D, and NYCB-A or U are all yielding well above 9%. Several other preferreds I watch are above 7%. Even USB-H is at 7.19%.

I doubled my (small) position in OZKAP today. My overall cost basis is now $14.83 giving me an overall yield of 7.78%. I'm happy with that going forward. And if it recovers closer to $25 par value over the next few years, all the better. Overall, my preferred stock portfolio is just over a 9% yield. If only it had another zero or two after the total balance I'd be set.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 10:11:54 PM by Michael in ABQ »

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #659 on: May 29, 2024, 07:40:13 PM »
The spread on the OZK prefs seems too low relative to the equity, no?  ~1x tangible book implying maybe a 12% through-cycle equity return (if it doesn’t bankrupt) vs 7.5%ish on the pref seems weak. Maybe I’m over-approximating the equity return.  I own plenty of non-bank prefs paying ~2% under the expected equity return.  Tax is a part of it for reit and partnerships but even the couple c-corp ones are paying no more than 3% under equity return.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #660 on: May 30, 2024, 06:19:13 AM »
The spread on the OZK prefs seems too low relative to the equity, no?  ~1x tangible book implying maybe a 12% through-cycle equity return (if it doesn’t bankrupt) vs 7.5%ish on the pref seems weak. Maybe I’m over-approximating the equity return.  I own plenty of non-bank prefs paying ~2% under the expected equity return.  Tax is a part of it for reit and partnerships but even the couple c-corp ones are paying no more than 3% under equity return.

I don't know if that's a fair comparison, they are different securities.   The ROE on the common is subjected to all of these outside factors.  Credit risk, interest rate risk, regulatory risk.   The regulators trapping capital inside banks has been an issue for investors for the past 10+ years, including in my community banks doing 12%+.

  The return on the preferred is from 1) not bankrupting and 2) market interest rate changes.

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #661 on: May 30, 2024, 08:37:50 AM »
The spread on the OZK prefs seems too low relative to the equity, no?  ~1x tangible book implying maybe a 12% through-cycle equity return (if it doesn’t bankrupt) vs 7.5%ish on the pref seems weak. Maybe I’m over-approximating the equity return.  I own plenty of non-bank prefs paying ~2% under the expected equity return.  Tax is a part of it for reit and partnerships but even the couple c-corp ones are paying no more than 3% under equity return.

I don't know if that's a fair comparison, they are different securities.   The ROE on the common is subjected to all of these outside factors.  Credit risk, interest rate risk, regulatory risk.   The regulators trapping capital inside banks has been an issue for investors for the past 10+ years, including in my community banks doing 12%+.

  The return on the preferred is from 1) not bankrupting and 2) market interest rate changes.

I guess if you look at their notes and adjust for tax benefit of the pref they are somewhat aligned. To your point regulators may prevent 12% ROTCE, that’s probably too high to hope for on this bank and the pref and rebounding stock are aligned if you assume something in the 10%s.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #662 on: May 30, 2024, 09:30:39 AM »
The spread on the OZK prefs seems too low relative to the equity, no?  ~1x tangible book implying maybe a 12% through-cycle equity return (if it doesn’t bankrupt) vs 7.5%ish on the pref seems weak. Maybe I’m over-approximating the equity return.  I own plenty of non-bank prefs paying ~2% under the expected equity return.  Tax is a part of it for reit and partnerships but even the couple c-corp ones are paying no more than 3% under equity return.

I don't know if that's a fair comparison, they are different securities.   The ROE on the common is subjected to all of these outside factors.  Credit risk, interest rate risk, regulatory risk.   The regulators trapping capital inside banks has been an issue for investors for the past 10+ years, including in my community banks doing 12%+.

  The return on the preferred is from 1) not bankrupting and 2) market interest rate changes.
Interesting discussion! There are several banks with commons yielding >5%, which used to be considered a good preferred yield! International banks are even cheaper. I like to keep an eye on BNS, BBVA, CIB, and ING, as candidates to live in an IRA.

There's another angle to the prefs vs commons comparison, and that is duration. Preferreds provide a high yield now, at the expense of future growth. Commons provide a lower dividend now, but with more cash flows expected in the future (e.g. dividend hikes). So in that way, their bond comparisons would be a shorter-duration bond for the preferred and a longer-duration bond for the common.

In this light, preferreds yielding ~7% or ~8% are compared to an alternative investment such as maybe 5-year treasuries (today's yield: 4.585%) and similar commons yielding 3-6% are comparable to an alternative investment such as maybe 10-year treasuries (today's yield: 4.566%).

Through this lens, preferreds look like the better deal in the immediate term, because their spread over comparable-duration bonds is higher. This is where we cue the "yea but..." about the potential for capital gains with the common stock, and I'd argue back that there's potential for capital gains from preferreds now if you buy well below the callable price and if rates fall. The other "yea but..." is about the potential for dividend growth on the commons. However I think that's semi-speculative and also discounted by occurring in the distant future.

RobertFromTX

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #663 on: May 30, 2024, 09:46:35 AM »
SBSI common is yielding 5.5%. Southside has a stranglehold on the East Texas deposit market (#1, 35% of Tyler MSA) and have deployed them in to Austin CRE. If you can get comfortable with their HTM bonds and Austin CRE, it might be a decent dividend stock.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #664 on: May 30, 2024, 12:10:41 PM »
Update:  I bought a hundred shares of BANCF today.

Fixed to floating preferred issuance from Banc of California.   Yielding 8%+ today and the fixed to floating reset I believe is 5yrT + 4.62%.   They are currently absorbing PACW and I don't think will be in a position to redeem these anytime soon.   Mostly a current yield decision.


@ChpBstrd - I enjoyed hearing you chime in on the common vs. pref discussion.

The only commons I really like right now are community banks with strong core (low cost) deposits earning 12% to 15% returns on equity today that can be bought below book value.   That's the only place where I see enough buffers for the laundry list of what could go wrong and still make a decent return, while the "what could go right" secnario is being sold off for 1.5x book for their deposit franchise.   Many of these pay me 4% per year to wait.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #665 on: May 30, 2024, 09:11:27 PM »
I’m really appreciating this write-up by Wolf Street which puts the nonresidential CRE default issue in historical context, with comparison to the GFC. Worth a look for anyone seeking the big picture perspective.
https://wolfstreet.com/2024/05/30/nonresidential-cre-loans-are-leaving-skid-marks-on-banks/

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #666 on: May 30, 2024, 10:03:25 PM »
I’m really appreciating this write-up by Wolf Street which puts the nonresidential CRE default issue in historical context, with comparison to the GFC. Worth a look for anyone seeking the big picture perspective.
https://wolfstreet.com/2024/05/30/nonresidential-cre-loans-are-leaving-skid-marks-on-banks/

Ha, yes Wolf is great, I hope he will write more about CRE.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #667 on: June 15, 2024, 05:46:10 AM »
For those who are following, I'm going to take a loss on my special situation investment.  $ASRV

The activist investor here threw in the towel and the company’s E&O policy is paying out almost a million dollar claim, basically admitting wrongdoing by the board. The company is worth $4.50 to $5 share with halfway competent management and the activist is leaving at a big loss loss in exchange for recovering most of their legal costs.

Management grifted away more than half a year of earnings instead of allowing a few independent director nominations to stand for election. It’s a wild risk in this sector and another reason to avoid banks, they can use the company money and the legal system to destroy any economics for an activist investor that pushes for change.

The biggest red flag in this one is the directors aren’t really directors. Normal compensation for a community bank board this size is $20,000 to $40,000/year, they pay significantly more than that and don’t have any directors with relevant experience. It’s been surprising both the regulators and at least until this $1mil loss, the E&O insurance provider has been okay with that. 

I sold my small taxable holdings, will slowly sell down most of my other stuff.  I may hang on to enough to annoy them at the virtual shareholder meetings.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #668 on: June 19, 2024, 05:46:36 PM »
Interesting read about how regional banks (including some names in this thread) are using hedge funds to meet stricter capital requirements. The term credit default swaps is not used, but isn't that what we're talking about here?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/regional-banks-want-slim-down-093000450.html

Meanwhile Sen. Elizabeth Warren is sending shots over the bow of Jerome Powell, for meeting with bank CEOs who are begging for a reprieve of Basel 3 regulations: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/18/sen-elizabeth-warren-powell-basel-iii-endgame.html

Together these could be seen as bullish indicators for banks. Either they persuade the government to surprisingly ignore Basel 3 recommendations and bump up bank stocks in the short run, OR banks have a backup plan to meet the higher capital standards by offloading some risk to hedge funds - at a cost - and not go bust in the long run. The backup plan might help them keep more underwater assets out of the mark-to-market bucket, but I imagine the hedge funds are extracting a pound of flesh for it.


SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #669 on: June 19, 2024, 07:24:40 PM »
Interesting read about how regional banks (including some names in this thread) are using hedge funds to meet stricter capital requirements. The term credit default swaps is not used, but isn't that what we're talking about here?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/regional-banks-want-slim-down-093000450.html

Meanwhile Sen. Elizabeth Warren is sending shots over the bow of Jerome Powell, for meeting with bank CEOs who are begging for a reprieve of Basel 3 regulations: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/18/sen-elizabeth-warren-powell-basel-iii-endgame.html

Together these could be seen as bullish indicators for banks. Either they persuade the government to surprisingly ignore Basel 3 recommendations and bump up bank stocks in the short run, OR banks have a backup plan to meet the higher capital standards by offloading some risk to hedge funds - at a cost - and not go bust in the long run. The backup plan might help them keep more underwater assets out of the mark-to-market bucket, but I imagine the hedge funds are extracting a pound of flesh for it.


I was actually thinking of posing a question here yesterday, whether private credit has the appetite to handle all the loan volume that banks don’t want to refi.  I guess this is a bullish sign that a lot of capital is there and itching to go.  Private credit is a huge $1T+ force but it also has opportunities in power infrastructure, struggling businesses that can’t tap the syndicated loan market etc.

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #670 on: June 19, 2024, 11:27:12 PM »
Interesting read about how regional banks (including some names in this thread) are using hedge funds to meet stricter capital requirements. The term credit default swaps is not used, but isn't that what we're talking about here?

A Wall Street Journal article on the same thing *does* use the term credit default swaps--in the article, if not in the title.

It also mentions that JP Morgan Chase and Morgan Stanley did the same thing, and hope that an increase in usage will make a market they can trade on, and advise issuers.

It is much more common already in Europe.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #671 on: June 20, 2024, 06:41:14 AM »
On the one hand, I'm hopeful that the emergence of a large standardized CDS market will allow public banks to actually offload default risk to shadow banks, hedge funds, and private equity. The added liquidity and lower bid-ask spreads of a frequently-traded market for standardized risk products could conceivably lower the cost of risk transfers, and allow banks to float through periods of depressed assets and higher defaults without suffering as much damage to their ability to make new loans. This "innovation" would be aimed at the root causes of the Great Depression, S&L Crisis, and GFC.

On the other hand, I remember the key lessons of the GFC. Every loan is different, quality is more subjective than science, and packaging them into a bundle of thousands of similar loans or selling them in tranches does not magically improve the aggregate quality or cause some newbie house flipper inspired by YouTube influencers to be able to make their payments. What happens when the next credit crisis wipes out this market, or the hedge fund / shadow bank / PE companies that the market depends on? It could have the same chilling effect on public banks' ability to lend, right? Plus there is still the effect on the macroeconomy by losing those private sources of capital. Finally, who is to say the counterparties can cover their obligations? Over-extended banks could still be left holding the bag.

60 years ago, the market for stock options was a series of Wall Street literal-shops selling bespoke contracts for guesswork prices to investors who generally had to hold them to maturity. The industry had more in common with pawn shops than today's CBOE, with its standardized contracts, electronic settlement, massive liquidity, and strict counterparty standards. When I think about what it would take to sell CDS to private investors against bank loans, it is hard for me to imagine something like the CBOE because the underlying assets are not standardized or standardizable like shares of stock or indices. I can imagine an auction system where individual loan documentation is uploaded, reviewed by analysts on the other side, and bid on. I could even imagine such auction systems opening to accredited individual investors for the smallest loans. It might be a good application for AI to review documentation on thousands of loans.

Another issue here is that the shadow banks/HFs/PE acting as market makers would have to earn a solid double-digit rate of return most years, even after covering the cost of their army of analysts or AI. The public banks considering making such payments would have to consider earning that rate of return themselves by simply not getting so leveraged that they must hedge. Thus, this marketplace would be (a) a place to unload the risk of loans that the banks know are junk, or (b) a place for banks in trouble to bail themselves out, or be bailed out by leveraged buyout investors. Both are factors that would push UP prices for CDS in an online auction. I suspect the terms would not be attractive on a regular basis to healthy banks making solid loans. Such banks won't even utilize the Fed's discount window, much less visit what is essentially a pawn shop for risk.

Still, Basel 3 is looming at a time when bank balance sheets still have lots of underwater assets not marked to market, housing affordability of metrics are at bubble levels, unemployment can only go up from ~4%, and defaults are rising. If there was ever a time to start a risk marketplace, it is probably now, because lots of banks are looking for a way out.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #672 on: July 02, 2024, 11:32:58 AM »
Interesting read on fintech customers losing access to their money, with some consequences to their bank partners:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/02/synapse-fintech-fdic-false-promise.html

Quote
...the FDIC made it clear that the failure of nonbanks won’t trigger FDIC insurance, and that even when fintechs partner with banks, customers may not have their deposits covered.




tj

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #673 on: July 02, 2024, 11:35:07 AM »
Interesting read on fintech customers losing access to their money, with some consequences to their bank partners:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/02/synapse-fintech-fdic-false-promise.html

Quote
...the FDIC made it clear that the failure of nonbanks won’t trigger FDIC insurance, and that even when fintechs partner with banks, customers may not have their deposits covered.

it's sad how many people will utilize Fintechs and be completely oblivious to this.

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #674 on: July 02, 2024, 11:39:55 AM »
Interesting read on fintech customers losing access to their money, with some consequences to their bank partners:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/02/synapse-fintech-fdic-false-promise.html

Quote
...the FDIC made it clear that the failure of nonbanks won’t trigger FDIC insurance, and that even when fintechs partner with banks, customers may not have their deposits covered.

That’s super hard knock learning, especially for younger generations that don’t remember GFC or bank failures. 

Total side note, it’s probably covered somewhere in this 14 page thread, but when looking at bank valuations do you back out HTM unrealized losses from TBV?  Seems to make a lot of sense to do so but plenty of sell side analysts don’t.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #675 on: July 03, 2024, 02:35:14 AM »
Welcome to July, bank earnings start in a few weeks.

The quarter started off with a fun dilution, $FFWM, a true crummy bank just diluted the heck out of their shareholders to the usual suspects (Fortress asset management and others) to raise capital.   This was after years of fighting activist shareholders trying to appoint adults ot the board of directors.

The deal is similar to $NYCB.   This is the risk dumpster diving for these stocks.   I'll be surprised if you see any larger failures now that NYCB and FFWM have seen private equity injections this cycle.   Those are two of the rougher CRE books out there but the spread between deposits / loans are large enough that time and capital can mostly fix things, then PE can exit by selling a cleaned up bank in 3-5 years.

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #676 on: July 03, 2024, 08:37:08 PM »
Welcome to July, bank earnings start in a few weeks.

The quarter started off with a fun dilution, $FFWM, a true crummy bank just diluted the heck out of their shareholders to the usual suspects (Fortress asset management and others) to raise capital.   This was after years of fighting activist shareholders trying to appoint adults ot the board of directors.

The deal is similar to $NYCB.   This is the risk dumpster diving for these stocks.   I'll be surprised if you see any larger failures now that NYCB and FFWM have seen private equity injections this cycle.   Those are two of the rougher CRE books out there but the spread between deposits / loans are large enough that time and capital can mostly fix things, then PE can exit by selling a cleaned up bank in 3-5 years.

I looked at this a little, seems pretty interesting if you think CA multi family will be ok and that new adults on the board can get lower cost deposits to come back.  But it’s also scary when you consider that management felt it was necessary to do this now and hand out warrants like Halloween candy to get the deal done.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #677 on: July 08, 2024, 12:39:55 PM »
https://fortune.com/2024/07/07/fed-rate-cuts-outlook-200-points-economy-sharper-slowdown-citi/
One team of analysts is calling for 200bp of rate cuts by this month next year.
Quote
In a note on Friday, the bank (Citi) cited fresh signs of a slowing economy for its view that the Fed will trim rates by 25 basis points eight times, starting in September and extending to July 2025.

Interesting call, but it can't be ruled out.

What would be the net impact on regional banks?

1) Negative, because successful loans/mortgages will be refi'ed and banks will be stuck with the lower quality assets, as deposits flee CDs and savings accounts for riskier assets.
2) Neutral, because just as diversified banks found profitable opportunities over the past 4 years they'll find a way during rate cuts.
3) Positive, because falling rates will improve the valuation of bond portfolios just as a positive yield curve opens up lending opportunities.
4) It Depends, because bank profits will hinge on defaults more than the absolute level of rates. It's a soft vs hard landing question.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #678 on: July 09, 2024, 08:05:50 AM »
@ChpBstrd Cop out answer, but I vote #4

My guess is we'll still see 75bps of cuts this year and another 100 next year to get us to neutral.

It'll give some relief to funding costs for banks, but asset yields will plateau.   Variable rate lending will go down from 8-9% into the 6-7% range, but at the same time you have the tailwind of the 2020-2022 originations at sub 4% fixed rates being repriced.   That's going to be a nice tailwind from 2025-2027.

There's also the AOCI losses that are being earned back each quarter as mortgage backed securities amortize, prepay, and the 5-10yr rates remain stable. 


#1-#3 are all accurate observations.   #1 is especially true for Commercial Real Estate lending, so many banks are still saying "I'm out" and it'll be interesting to see how quickly that changes as quality assets are refinanced off their books.   I'm moving a $6mil bridge loan out of Renesant Bank, they were unwilling to get anywhere close to rate / terms, so it's being refinanced at $8mil with a life insurance company below 7%.    Many banks whined and said "we can't do cash out", but the original loan amount was based on a vacant building / rehab project, not a fully occupied, multitenant industrial building.

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #679 on: July 19, 2024, 09:00:57 PM »
#5, Positive for lower funding costs and less credit stress on borrowers.  More commercial building owners will be able to make interest payments and refinance.  Long rates stay high which does not create an AOCI tailwind.

In other news, Buffett just reported selling $1.4bn of the BAC stake.  Think this continues?  I think they have to report sales in real time as a large holder. 

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #680 on: July 20, 2024, 08:58:48 AM »
In other news, Buffett just reported selling $1.4bn of the BAC stake.  Think this continues?  I think they have to report sales in real time as a large holder.

With Banks, Tangible Book Value acts like gravity over a long period of time.   Bank of America's Tangible Book Value is $25 and change right now.   I wouldn't be surprised to see more trimming here.   Warren had significant holdings in the large regionals half a decade ago he also exited at elevated P/TBVs.

I've trimmed 15-20% of my BAC holdings, pushing those proceeds back into smaller community banks with good deposit franchises and credit books still trading below TBV.


reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #681 on: July 20, 2024, 10:35:00 AM »
@chasesfish , what do you think about Citi?  It's a mess, but stands out like a sore thumb as a mega bank still trading below tangible book.  I think about it's non-deposit business, and ir has an atrocious high P/E.  But then I come back to price to book, and think this could be an opportunity for someone who is patient.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #682 on: July 20, 2024, 02:48:15 PM »
@chasesfish , what do you think about Citi?  It's a mess, but stands out like a sore thumb as a mega bank still trading below tangible book.  I think about it's non-deposit business, and ir has an atrocious high P/E.  But then I come back to price to book, and think this could be an opportunity for someone who is patient.

Jane Wells seems to be taming a beast over there, I know a few sharp bank folks are high on the work she's doing and have been investing in Citi.   I haven't yet, which seems to be a mistake with it's performance.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #683 on: July 23, 2024, 06:17:13 AM »
The fun of community bank stock investing.   $BOTJ had some strange price action yesterday before earnings, as if someone was buying on insider information.   Up over 50% now on my blocks bought in 2023 and April of 2024.   I sold about 2/3rds of it into the buyer, topping at $15.75.

Watching for news now...

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #684 on: July 30, 2024, 06:54:08 AM »
According to this article, at least some banks are selling their low-yielding bonds for a loss, taking their lumps now during a period of economic strength to position themselves to earn net interest in the future.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-regional-banks-are-now-willing-to-take-billions-in-losses-123009272.html
Quote
Regional banks that announced bond sales in recent weeks include Pittsburgh-based PNC Financial Services Group and Charlotte-based Truist (TFC), two of the top 10 biggest lenders in the US, along with Regions (RF) and Webster (WBS). More are expected to do the same.

PNC took a half-billion dollars in losses on its bond sales and reinvented the proceeds into securities with yields "approximately 400 basis points higher than the securities sold," according to the bank.

That raised the bank's confidence that it would reap a record amount of net interest income next year.

This behavior initially struck me as weird. The yield to maturity of the old bonds at the prices the banks sold them should be very close to the market rate on the new bonds they bought. So what they're really doing is pulling cash flows forward in time, with higher coupons in exchange for lower gains at maturity. This play to boost net interest income might be a wise move to survive an expected recession and increase in defaults, or it may simply be executives massaging earnings to boost their stocks next year at the expense of transaction costs.

There could also be more thought going into these moves. The article doesn't say whether the banks are increasing or decreasing the duration of their bond portfolios. Swapping a low-yielding 10-year bond for a higher-yielding 10-year bond would reduce duration, for example. To keep duration constant, they'd need to swap their 10-year bond for a higher-yielding 11 or 12 year bond (speaking in generalities here).

Maybe if they're 100% confident rates are going down, they're actually adding net duration. This is a bet that could go wrong if rates were to go up instead - even as unlikely as that seems. But it's also a bet that could float the bank through a period of higher-than-expected defaults. As a bank treasurer, I'd probably take this bet. But as an investor, I suspect this trend is opening up a widening gap between current yield and YTM for low-yielding bonds that could represent a minor bargain.

I also wonder if banks are loading up on high-yielding mortgages that will probably be refinanced next year, or if they're playing the long game by locking in treasuries exclusively.

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #685 on: July 30, 2024, 10:09:40 AM »
I saw that article, too, and also found it interesting.

If I take into context the last year back to March 2023, it also means they wouldn't take a loss selling to cover redemptions, which is exactly what happened to SVB.  I can plausibly imagine the Chief Risk Officers and / or Boards pounding the table and saying "never again," at least this close to the crisis of last year.  Maybe even the regulators?  I wonder if it explicitly becomes a stress test scenario.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #686 on: July 30, 2024, 12:39:19 PM »
@ChpBstrd I can speak specifically on Truist (my old employer).   They needed capital, they stopped loaning money half a decade ago and instead went with bonds of all type, which then plummeted in value, leaving them under capitalized.   They sold their insurance division for that capital, but to avoid paying income tax on a significant gain on sale, they realized bond losses and reinvested it.

You are correct, mathematically it didn't matter whether they held the existing bonds or traded them out, the result it the same.   The timing of the action was tax driven. 

For the ones who don't have a big gain on sale, it's just about "eating the elephant" one quarter at a time.   Realize a small loss, make it back up in higher net interest income.   Eventually there are no more embedded losses

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #687 on: July 30, 2024, 03:32:16 PM »
The part I can't wrap my mind around is how, by switching to bonds with higher coupon rates and assuming they aren't changing portfolio duration, they are getting lower convexity. This means banks will benefit less from the predicted fall in interest than if they'd held onto their original low yielding bonds.

Reducing convexity might take some risk off the table if these banks are worried the yields of longer duration bonds will stay put or possibly rise. However, it will under-perform if rates fall significantly across the board. So are the banks mentioned essentially stating an opinion on the future of interest rates?
 
Maybe I'm reading too much strategy into what @chasesfish points out is a tax decision. Maybe @reeshau has a point too, in that bank boards are suddenly terrified by the risks of high duration + high convexity, and just want out as soon as possible because "never again".

Or... maybe the simplest interpretation is that there is no strategy, these banks are simply rolling assets to maintain a consistent duration over time, and somebody wrote an article about it. Maybe the change in convexity is just an unintended consequence of the higher yields available today.

Even if that is the case, investors might be wise to not think banks will enjoy massive capital gains in the event rates fall fast and far. The financial gearing for an era of rate cuts will simply be different than it was on the way up in 2022-2023. Banks are probably making themselves safer from rising rates, but at the expense of potential upside if rates fall hard. Of course, that's exactly the scenario in which banks might appreciate some bond convexity to offset their losses elsewhere.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #688 on: July 30, 2024, 06:24:48 PM »
All the reasons to realize losses in the securities book

1) Tax Decision to offset a gain.

2) Knowing bonuses won't be made in the current year, you take the "one time" loss hit and higher net interest margin in future periods look like operating cash flow / EPS.

3) Operating cash flow can be used to build reserves, since a reserve build is an accounting charge in the current period.

4) It's easier to grow loans when you can just fund the loan by selling a security around par.   Many banks loaded up on FHLB and overnight borrowings from various federal agencies to hold off cashing out underwater bonds / realizing losses.   Those advances cost 4%+ and drag on earnings.

SilentC

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #689 on: July 30, 2024, 08:07:58 PM »
If they are talking MBS, the spreads are meaningfully higher on the higher coupon bonds to compensate for higher refi risk and most models would tell you a higher YTW.  But this does change convexity/duration.

Second and probably the main driver is the previously mentioned point that it increases NII.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #690 on: September 09, 2024, 01:47:45 PM »
I recently stumbled across First National Bank Alaska (FBAK), and could use help finding the drawbacks aside from slow growth, paying too high a dividend, and being a small (28 branch) OTC bank stock.
  • Founded in 1922
  • Stock beta 0.29!
  • PE ratio: 10.46 (5y average is just over 12)
  • Yield: 6.46%
  • Payout ratio: 82.7%
  • Price/BV: 1.31
  • ROA: 1.12%
  • ROE: 13.35%
  • Debt/Equity: 9.54x
  • Debt/Assets: 90.5%
  • 3 year stock price performance: -12.9%
  • Net Income YoY growth, Q2: 8.2%; Last 5 years: 7% total
  • 100% of securities listed as "for sale" on balance sheet for at least the last 5 years
  • Operating Efficiency (2Q2024): 54.94%
  • 30-89d Delinquent Loan Rate (2Q2024): 0.15%
  • Nonperforming Loan Rate (2Q2024): 0.20%
  • Tier 1 capital: 11.12%
  • Market cap: $628M
  • Analysts following the stock: 0
My overall impression is that FBAK's hyper-conservative management is "loaded for bear" and sacrificing growth for stability and dividend payment. They could be outflanked by competitors more willing to take risks or reinvest earnings, or they could be a buyout candidate. However, in the near term their 6.46% yield looks as safe as any.

It is unclear to me why the stock fell during the banking crises of early 2023 and then never recovered from "the dip" we started talking about here. The stock is behaving like NYCB, yet FBAK has steady, profitable growth and no immediate existential threats.

FBAK stock has been relatively flat for the past several months, so I wonder if markets are accounting for the recent and sudden fall in >2 year-duration interest rates. This should have boosted the value of FBAK's $2.05B securities portfolio. Q3 could involve a surprising mark-up - maybe by a large fraction of the stock's market cap.

BIV, for reference, is up 5.3% since July 1, so if FBAK's securities portfolio resembles this fund's intermediate 5-10y bond holdings, we might expect a roughly $100M write-up of the completely-marked-to-market securities on their balance sheet. That would be 16% of the bank's market cap. The stock hasn't moved enough in recent weeks to price in this development, though one might say the Price/BV ratio was a bit high to begin with.

Your thoughts, anybody?

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #691 on: September 09, 2024, 03:32:20 PM »
My guess at lack of price recovery is their concentration in commercial real estate loans.  I couldn't find another step down in detail to separate office vs. others.

In terms of branches, I think they actually have the state covered pretty well.  To the extent that is small for the industry, I don't think there is someone else intruding on it.  I do know Wells Fargo has a lot of branches in Alaska, too.

I did see that they have non-interest-bearing deposits at about the same level of commercial accounts, at 48%.  (Of course, not the same denominator)

As anecdotal evidence:  I was in Alaska this summer.  Cruised up, and spent an extra 2 weeks.  There was a movement in Ketchikan to forbid cruises to land on Saturdays, in an effort to relieve residents from tourist crowds.  There was quite a bit of push back on that, of course, from store owners and workers.  It was a hotbutton issue.

Anchorage literally had no hotel availability for the week we were there.  Some single nights popped up for boutique hotels.  We ended up extending our stay for a week, and found an AirBnB that had a cancelation.  In light of that, though, there were quite a few vacant retail spots open downtown.  If anything, it was pretty dead during the day.  There didn't seem to be a lot of spillover from cruise tourists transiting the Captain Cook hotel or the convention center.  The small mall downtown wasn't empty, meaning empty stores, but was very quiet.  At the height of the tourist season.

So, besides national topics, there may be further chatter or worries about the local tourist-driven economy.  I did not follow up with any research in local news or anything--I just noticed it.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #692 on: September 11, 2024, 09:38:07 AM »
Virtually no growth market with exposure to energy and tourism.  Limited buyers in a sale due to geography / politics.

That's why it trades at a discount.

Your best case scenario is to get a good operator committed to 100% capital return to shareholders.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #693 on: September 12, 2024, 05:06:18 AM »
A few interesting bits of news this week:

Mortgage Bankers Association

"MBA: U.S. Commercial Mortgage Debt Reaches $4.7T in Q2 as Office Delinquencies Rise
The U.S. commercial mortgage market hit $4.7 trillion in Q2 2024, with delinquencies increasing across several key investor groups.
By the numbers: The Mortgage Bankers Association (MBA) report analyzed delinquency rates for five key investor groups holding over 80% of commercial mortgage debt. Here’s how they performed in Q2 2024:
•   Banks and thrifts: 1.15% of loans were 90+ days delinquent or in non-accrual, a 0.12% increase from Q1.
•   Life insurance companies: Delinquencies fell to 0.43% (60+ days delinquent), a decrease of 0.09% from Q1.
•   Fannie Mae: The delinquency rate remained steady at 0.44% for loans 60+ days delinquent.
•   Freddie Mac: Rates rose slightly to 0.38% (60+ days delinquent), up by 0.04%.
•   CMBS: Delinquencies rose significantly to 4.82% for loans 30+ days delinquent or in REO, an increase of 0.47%.
Focus on office loans: Office loans, which make up $740 billion of total commercial mortgage debt, are under more scrutiny. According to Trepp, in August, the office sector’s special servicing rate hit 11.91%, its highest since 2013, with $1.4 billion in loans transferred to special servicing.
New troubled debt: The multifamily special servicing rate also spiked in August, rising 60 basis points to 5.71%, the highest in nine years. Retail's rate slightly increased to 10.92%, while lodging ticked up to 7.42%. Industrial properties, however, remained stable, with rates under 1%.
➥ THE TAKEAWAY
Zoom out: The broader CRE market is grappling with rising servicing and delinquency rates throughout 2024. While some lenders attempt to restructure troubled loans, others are reclaiming properties as distress escalates. A handful of syndicators with floating-rate loans are especially feeling the pressure, as declining property values and unmet equity targets force lenders to take control.

The takeaway here continues to be the distress is in office, which is primarily financed through CMBS, and multifamily, which is held by the mortgage REITs

M&T Bank CFO Speaks at Barclays Conference

Darryl Bible (one of the smartest guys I've met) discussed the drop in mid term rates reducing the amount of watch list credits at M&T and expects total CRE delinquencies to decline from Q2 to Q3.   He specifically mentioned that the low 6% permanent loan rates are facilitiating the refinance / sale of properties that were otherwise stuck.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #694 on: September 12, 2024, 07:33:46 AM »
I found some graphics from CredIQ to illustrate the quietly growing distressed loan problem mentioned by @chasesfish .

I was previously not aware multifamily, hotel, and industrial were having problems on this scale, or that defaults had increased so much since the banking crisis days of spring 2023. These are loans secured by CMBS, so they may be better or worse than the numbers for directly held loans.






It's enough to make me want to buy puts on VNQ and wait a bit longer for the financial industry bargains to come along.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #695 on: September 12, 2024, 01:05:27 PM »
Those big spikes for industrial and self-storage seem odd. It doesn't make sense that 14.4% of self-storage properties with loans would be delinquent one month then back down to 0.1% the next. Same with the two big spikes for industrial. I think they had some bad data in November 2023 across all sectors

In my market (Albuquerque) I can confirm that industrial vacancy remains very low at 2-3% while retail and office are struggling. Lots of empty buildings and empty spaces in shopping centers and plenty of for lease signs for office buildings. Back when I was in the commercial real estate industry our office market was always struggling with 15-20% vacancy. It hasn't gotten any better. Retail used to be around 10% but I can think of multiple large shopping centers where almost every space is vacant, not even counting all the smaller buildings that don't typically get counted in the statistics as they're too small.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #696 on: September 12, 2024, 02:00:52 PM »
@Michael in ABQ - The charts include "special servicing" - For self storage, a single large credit or equity fund holding a few deals could have triggered a default in their loan then quickly resolved it.

CMBS only really works for $10mil+ property types and most of those in the self storage space are owned by the REITs.  It's likely just a small sample size issue.

Retail is the most surprising to me, but I'm in Florida and all these wealthy retirees getting juiced from social security can't seem to get enough of retail.

Industrial is a similar story on the size, it's the largest buildings that may be getting hit with tenant bankruptcies / early terminations.  It takes a long time to backfill a 30,000sqft tenant right now.

@ChpBstrd - That's pretty normal for Hotel CMBS delinquencies.    Hospitality is notorious for a higher delinquency rate, but losses aren't as bad as in other types.  You rent rooms by the night, CMBS hotels are usually better quality ones.   Bad local / macro economic stuff and poor operators pop up.   It's also a business where when times get a little tight or someone adds inventory, everyone beats their brains out for lower room rates at lower occupancy.

reeshau

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #697 on: September 12, 2024, 03:04:03 PM »
In my north Houston suburb, retail vacancy is 4.2%, industrial just 3.4%, but office is 15%--actually up a bit from last year.

ChpBstrd

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #698 on: October 09, 2024, 04:24:16 PM »
A friend of mine who works at a regional bank used one of their tools to identify $1.1B in loans in the areas impacted by Helene. That was before Milton hit relatively nearby. It makes me wonder if hurricanes cause an uptick in delinquencies. E.g. small businesses go bankrupt from the damage, construction projects face setbacks and rework, tens of thousands of vehicles are flooded, and basically the bank has to wait a very long time for the overwhelmed insurance companies to process and pay claims, if they actually do.

KRE has been relatively flat through the two hurricanes, so either markets know it's not a big deal or markets are failing to understand the damage to loan portfolios. Evidence in favor of the later explanation is that insurance companies (e.g. IAK) are at the same price they were before either hurricane.

chasesfish

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Re: buy bank stocks on the dip
« Reply #699 on: October 11, 2024, 04:37:44 AM »
A friend of mine who works at a regional bank used one of their tools to identify $1.1B in loans in the areas impacted by Helene. That was before Milton hit relatively nearby. It makes me wonder if hurricanes cause an uptick in delinquencies. E.g. small businesses go bankrupt from the damage, construction projects face setbacks and rework, tens of thousands of vehicles are flooded, and basically the bank has to wait a very long time for the overwhelmed insurance companies to process and pay claims, if they actually do.

KRE has been relatively flat through the two hurricanes, so either markets know it's not a big deal or markets are failing to understand the damage to loan portfolios. Evidence in favor of the later explanation is that insurance companies (e.g. IAK) are at the same price they were before either hurricane.

Smaller regionals / community banks are where I see some of this risk.   The community banks are doing commercial real estate under $5mil.  Usually older buildings, more rural areas, ect.   Wind coverage is required by lenders, what gets the banks is when there is flooding in areas that aren't a flood zone.   I started my career at BB&T, they talked about some losses in 1998 when Hurricane Floyd flooded the entire eastern half of North Carolina.   There is eventual federal disaster money.

If this happens, I would expect it to report like COVID related loan modifications.   They'll put the loans into foreberance, report it as a line item in their portfolio, and that % of the assets will be known as "affected loans".   Then the bank slowly reports the progress on those loans - Paid off, put back on accrual, or charged off.   There will be a few western NC banks that report that way.   I'm in one small bank that lends in Boone NC and bought a single branch bank in Mountain City TN, so I'll be able to tell you what they do in a month or so.  They usually report the first week of the 2nd month of the quarter.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 04:39:15 AM by chasesfish »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!