Author Topic: Bonds vs Stocks  (Read 522 times)

41_swish

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Bonds vs Stocks
« on: May 25, 2025, 01:54:25 PM »
I have an age old question, why are people so dead set on bonds? This post is inspired by this post on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dividendgang/comments/1krz9is/but_its_a_forced_sale/

And specifically this comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dividendgang/comments/1krz9is/comment/mthha62/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I have watched some classic Ben Felix videos on the matter, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZp9ULWi3pI .

I tried to come to my own conclusion and here is what my line of thinking is. Dividend stock and ETFs / fixed income funds have historically lower total returns than that of the broad financial markets.

I am using this website to look at total returns:
https://totalrealreturns.com/s/VOO,VTI,VXUS,SCHD,VYM

My conclusion is that dividend funds do provide respectable returns, especially when those exact dividends are reinvested, but the total returns of these dividends funds is still lower than the total return of major market indices. Is looking at total returns the right way to think about this comparison?

My two cents is that, this comes down to a psychological argument for dividend investors. They like to see dividends come in however often the fund has them allocated and some like to reinvest and others like to take the money and use it. I am curious what that chart looks like for SCHD and VYM without dividends reinvested. You do have to sell portions of your index tracking ETFs when you need funds.

Am I crazy for still being a three fund portfolio believer? Should I even give stupid reddit memes my time of day?

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2025, 03:27:40 PM »
There seem to be two different questions you're asking:

1.) What are the pros and cons of high yield bonds?
2.) What are the pros and cons of dividend stocks compared to broad-based total market funds?

I'm not much of a bond expert but in a nutshell there are a lot of options out there. There are extremely safe Treasury bonds, there are municipal bonds, there are corporate bonds of varying qualities. Generally speaking, the higher the yield the riskier the bond is. If you chase yield, you increase risk. In a FIRE context, attempts to negate sequence of returns risk by building a high yield portfolio do not hold up to historical backtesting. In my mind, I have little interest in bonds while I am accumulating. During withdrawal you can argue about owning short, medium, and long duration bonds or you can just buy a 10 year treasury fund and save a lot of though.

As for stocks, you can be a successful investor investing in index funds. You can also be successful investing in high dividend funds or stocks. Your success is more driven by your behavior than your investment vehicle (ie, a disciplined buy and hold investor with a high savings rate will outperform an undisciplined panic seller with a low savings rate, no matter what funds they're invested in). You can see that for yourself playing with tools that allow you to model regular contributions, e.g. here.

Generally, the indexing philosophy is that dividends are disadvantageous as you owe capital gains tax on them during accumulation. Many modern companies perform stock buybacks instead of issuing dividends, so by chasing yield you ignore the best companies doing business today. Finally, dividend stocks have been underperforming the total market for quite a while. So if the total return is lower and the tax implications are worse, why would you want to invest with that methodology? And the link above shows, chasing yield has historically performed worse during market crashes.

High yield seems to be the worst of all worlds: lower total return, higher taxes, and worse performance during withdrawal.

When I started investing I dove deep into all the calculators and explored all the funky asset allocations that people argue will benefit you during market downturns. The more I learned and the more I had invested the more I turned toward simplicity: 100% total market funds with more or less cash depending on life situation. Plenty of very successful people validate that approach, and I recommend taking advice from people who have accomplished what you're trying to do.

Finally, Reddit is garbage. No matter how warped or incorrect your idea, you'll find some community on the internet who tells you it's a great idea. Vet your sources and only pay attention to the ones that have verifiable credentials. Otherwise you might as well ask random people on the street for their opinions.

Rob_bob

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2025, 05:14:00 PM »
I didn't read the links, my comments are based on what's in your post.

I don't think people are really "dead set on bonds'.  Quality bonds are used as a risk reducer to reduce volatility which also reduces total return. The % of bonds in your portfolio is determined by your risk tolerance. High yield bonds are not a risk reducer, they have equity type volatility and higher risk.

At your age I wouldn't bother with bonds, I would invest for total return, dividend stocks, depending on the yield they pay, may or may not fit into the total return bucket.  I would let dividends collect as cash then reinvest them to help keep my asset allocation in balance.

Now I am not your age, I'm retired now, and not early as thought of on this forum, I am not accumulating but spending now.  I still have very little in fixed income.  A good portion of my portfolio is now invested in higher yielding ETFs and individual stocks but I still have a sizeable position in growth.  For the first 5 years of retirement I lived solely on the dividend/interest income from my taxable account with an occasional small distribution from my Roth, I have only sold shares for larger purchases.

When you are young focus on growth, when you are spending down you will need to decide if you want to generate income from selling shares or shifting to a more "automatic" income distribution method.

Telecaster

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2025, 05:39:12 PM »
Bonds are like a ship's ballast.  They keep things stable.   They can even help the ship go faster in some cases.   Nothing wrong with bonds.   Just like ballast, you don't want to fill up the whole hull.   Just use the amount you need.

Dividends are different, and those guys in that thread are wrong.   Dividends are part of the total return of the stock.   Let's say a company is worth X amount and pays Y amount in dividends.  Now the company is now worth = X-Y.  So the value of your stock went down by -Y..    That's fine because your bank account went up by +Y.  So your net worth is theoretically the same both pre and post dividend.  I say theoretically because market variations/inefficiencies play a role too.  But that's basically true.

So if your net worth stays the same pre and post dividend, who cares about dividends?   



Posthumane

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2025, 05:49:32 PM »
Quality bonds are used as a risk reducer to reduce volatility which also reduces total return.
Some allocation of bonds, or any other assets that under performs stocks on average but is not correlated with them, does not necessarily reduce total returns and may in fact increase them while decreasing volatility. In a modern portfolio the question of "stocks or bonds" is, in my opinion, the wrong question to ask. Neither asset performs as well on its own as multiple uncorrelated assets with appropriate balancing between them. The tough part though is getting the right asset allocation and the right balancing point.

Take, as a hypothetical example, two assets which have relatively large swings (say, +/- 10% over some arbitrary time period) but on average have zero real returns (i.e. their price ultimately returns to the same value on a long time scale). Owning 100% or asset A or 100% of asset B will get you zero returns. Owning 50% of each asset will also get you zero returns if you do nothing with them. If, however, you rebalance your portfolio anytime there is a significant swing (say 48/52) you will periodically be selling the more expensive asset and buying the cheaper asset. Do that enough times, and your portfolio will show positive returns even as the underlying assets are returning zero.

This hypothetical example can be extended to assets that do not have zero returns. Say asset A from the previous example has a 1% return and asset B still has zero. Is it better to go 100% in on asset A? Not necessarily. Depending on how correlated/uncorrelated the assets are, you will likely still do better by having a mix of both. The optimal ratio of each asset depends on correlation; it they are perfectly negatively correlated (like two inverse sine waves) then a 50/50 split might be optimal, and if their correlation is a higher then biasing more towards the higher return asset could be beneficial.

In the real world the way this plays out is that having a small percentage of an asset that is relatively stable and not well correlated with stocks gives you something to balance in and out of when large swings occur, which may increase returns if the balance point is well chosen.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2025, 05:04:57 AM »
I am using this website to look at total returns:
https://totalrealreturns.com/s/VOO,VTI,VXUS,SCHD,VYM

My conclusion is that dividend funds do provide respectable returns, especially when those exact dividends are reinvested, but the total returns of these dividends funds is still lower than the total return of major market indices. Is looking at total returns the right way to think about this comparison?

In comparing two equity investment approaches, total returns are the correct measuring stick.  The problem is that people in that reddit thread won't run a comparison like you've done, to disprove that someone can retire in their 40s vs 70s because they held dividend stocks.  They would have a higher total net worth with the S&P 500 versus a dividend ETF.  Someone else claims they have the "same number of shares" after dividends, while ignoring that the price of each share drops by the amount of the dividend per share.  They do not gain money because the company issues a dividend.  That thread seems more of a comparison of stocks vs dividend stocks, although I didn't read every comment.

41_swish

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2025, 10:55:56 PM »
Okay, I will look at these kinds of problems in terms of total returns. Dividend funds certainly have a time and place, trying to create a one size fits all solution like that post does, glosses over a lot of nuance.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #7 on: Today at 07:39:38 AM »
One can think of the entire investment universe as dots along a line, where the line means "how soon do I get my return?". In the bond world, this is called "duration" but I think everything has a duration.

As the date you get your return goes farther and farther into the future, the risk of not getting any return increases. Time is risk, time is money, and risk is money.

A money market fund or bank CD lies at one end of the spectrum, while a highly-speculative investment with no cash flows or negative cash flows lies at the other end. The money market fund or CD pays you its return on a daily basis and is practically guaranteed. But the return is low exactly because the return is quick and guaranteed. Meanwhile, the people buying monkey drawings or memecoins receive no guarantee, have an extremely high risk of losing everything, and may have to wait decades for their ideas to yield a return, if they ever do.

Similarly, dividend stocks recoup their initial investment faster, but because they are eating (distributing) the money they would need to grow, these companies tend to not grow and underperform those businesses that reinvest. Again, you get your money in hand faster, but you get a lower overall return.

I would rank the investing universe (and their currently expected returns) something like this:

Quick and Safe Money
money market funds and CDs (4%)
AAA bonds (4.1%)
short duration government bonds (4.2%)
most corporate or muni bonds (4.5%)
long duration bonds (5%)
preferred stocks (5-7%)
dividend stocks (6-9%)
junk bonds or REITs (7-10%)
broad stock index (10%)
growth stocks (15-20%)
highly speculative investments (meme stocks, crypto, PMs)(25%+)
Distant and Risky Money

Of course, the investments far down the list are increasingly less likely to meet their investors' expectations in any given year. Otherwise we'd all be in the most risky things we could find. And good luck retiring on the returns from a 100% growth stocks or speculative portfolio. The cash flows are just too distant, too lumpy, and occasionally negative, which makes it hard to pay bills. This end of the spectrum is littered with 100% losses too, which require a lot of winners to make up for.

Thus, the "actual return" does not resemble the "expected return". For an illustration, consider how long-duration bonds can return double-digits when rates are cut, or can lose double digits when rates rise. The market is constantly pricing and repricing the odds of any given return for this whole range of assets. I will sometimes express an opinion that a particular asset class is overpriced, given its prospects.

Dividend stocks, for example, are perpetually one of my least-favorite asset classes. These companies tend to have peaked a long, long time ago, are essentially self-liquidating over a long period of time, and will often cut their dividends in the event of a recession. So you as an investor get all the risk of business equity, the additional risk of past-its-prime business equity, little to none of the growth potential, and basically the return of your own equity in a taxable format. If the dividend is 5%, it will take you 20 years just to earn back your initial investment in nominal terms, and if management cannot think of any better use of the money than to send it back to investors, will they be around that long? Why not bump up your risk two notches and go for the increased return potential of the broad index, or down one notch and get the increased reliability of corporate bonds or preferred stock?

My other least-favorite space is the speculative category, where people are busy making up financial products out of thin air, like NFTs, new cryptocurrencies, and hopeless-to-fraudulent startup companies, just to capture investors' speculative allocation. These are simply rug-pull scams masquerading as investments - a legal form of fraud.

41_swish

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #8 on: Today at 10:24:12 AM »
I should have changed the title of this post as well, because the people who I was talking about in the reddit post were not bond investors. They were dividend stock investors.

Dividend stocks surely have a a time and place and bonds absolutely have a time and place. However, when I look at the real return of those dividend stocks, with dividends reinvested, they still seem lackluster in comparison to market indices. I guess they have beat ex-us indices lately, but not the S&P 500, NASDAQ, or Dow Jones.

erp

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #9 on: Today at 10:55:37 AM »
I am not really a dividend investor - so take what I'm saying here with a healthy helping of skepticism. I like the idea of dividends, but think that the tax structure disincentivizes them enough that they don't behave normally.

One of the appeals of dividends is that the company is actually distributing real money. This (usually) means that they made money to distribute by selling something or otherwise having income. Growth stock pricing generally includes the assumption that the company will keep growing in the future, and therefore that earnings will rise. Dividend stocks have less growth priced in (which is appropriate, they're growing less), so they're priced more on actual performance. That means that if someone thinks valuations are absurd, a given dividend stock is probably less crazy because they have real cash flow to pay that dividend. A growth company could plausibly be entirely funded by VC money and have no income to speak of; just the promise of giant income later.

If you're in the wealth preservation phase of your life, there's a pretty compelling case to buying dividend stocks (whether within an ETF or individually) - the extra stability might offset the loss of return. If you're in the accumulation phase I think it's probably best to just buy a broad market ETF and be done with it.

As far as bonds go - they're just a more extreme case of the same trade off. They're generally less risky but also less rewarding. I like to hold ~ 20% in bonds or GICs (Canadian), because I feel less weird when markets take a dump. That strategy left me feeling pretty good through the Mar 2020 covid drop, and the more recent volatility during tariff nonsense, so I think it's the right choice for me.

The big takeaway is that you should be thinking about the total return (as other posters have suggested), the level of risk that you're willing to tolerate, and what you actually need in the next few years (ie. don't invest your home down payment in crypto if you want to buy in the next few years).

mistymoney

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #10 on: Today at 12:08:27 PM »
I have an age old question, why are people so dead set on bonds? This post is inspired by this post on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dividendgang/comments/1krz9is/but_its_a_forced_sale/

And specifically this comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dividendgang/comments/1krz9is/comment/mthha62/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I have watched some classic Ben Felix videos on the matter, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZp9ULWi3pI .

I tried to come to my own conclusion and here is what my line of thinking is. Dividend stock and ETFs / fixed income funds have historically lower total returns than that of the broad financial markets.

I am using this website to look at total returns:
https://totalrealreturns.com/s/VOO,VTI,VXUS,SCHD,VYM

My conclusion is that dividend funds do provide respectable returns, especially when those exact dividends are reinvested, but the total returns of these dividends funds is still lower than the total return of major market indices. Is looking at total returns the right way to think about this comparison?

My two cents is that, this comes down to a psychological argument for dividend investors. They like to see dividends come in however often the fund has them allocated and some like to reinvest and others like to take the money and use it. I am curious what that chart looks like for SCHD and VYM without dividends reinvested. You do have to sell portions of your index tracking ETFs when you need funds.

Am I crazy for still being a three fund portfolio believer? Should I even give stupid reddit memes my time of day?

welp I'm sure other will cover the more obvious, but I wanted to chime in and say that they are bashing the bogleheads as retiring later, but that is only because they are mostly rich people who intend to stay rich forever.  Some are at 50x expenses or more and still working.

It doesn't mean that the boglehead saving/investing strategy is subpar to whatever these people are doing.

mistymoney

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #11 on: Today at 12:46:24 PM »
adding:

read around on that sub for a bit.

a lot of those people are not logical at all. it was scary and darkly amusing.

How did you end up there? question whatever it was that got you there!

41_swish

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Re: Bonds vs Stocks
« Reply #12 on: Today at 08:37:14 PM »
It was a similar to this community type thing on Reddit. I went back and looked and it is illogical at best. tbh, I really shouldn't read too much into that place. I went to some of the profiles and they were buying leveraged calls on meme stocks and nonsense like that

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!