Author Topic: Bonds vs Cash  (Read 2960 times)

ak907

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Bonds vs Cash
« on: May 21, 2024, 10:34:34 AM »
Hi all I have a question on peoples thoughts on Bonds vs Cash (really money markets) currently. There was a post on I read recently somewhere on Bonds vs Cash, but it may not have been this forum and I cannot find it, so here I am posting to get some opinions, read some good discussion. In general my guiding principles lay along the lines of Jim Collin's/boggleheads simple investment strategy + time. I have been trying to adjust my ratio's as I am closing in on FIRE, trying to move to an ~80/20 portfolio (from a 100% stocks position for ~decade) to bring risks in line with my tolerance for relying on for income.
 
  There have been a few things have have me tripped up and having me moving away from a simple 2 or 3 fund (all us stocks/all us treasury or bonds/all international stocks) portfolio. That is a very large very low interest mortgage ($670 thousand,2.65%) and higher interest rates. As discussed in the "don't pay off your mortgage" thread investing instead of using cash to pay off my mortgage makes too much sense (to me, personally the debt is not something that stresses me or something I think about). But the mortgage is ~50% of my expenses, and saving ~2x the value of the mortgage in order to meet safe withdrawal minimum to pay off said mortgage seems insane. In addition to this the fact, the return on bonds has been negative to minimal for such a long time (it looks like rates are going to not see significant cuts for some time) and money markets (specifically Vanguard VMRXX) pay so much more. As a result I have taken to shoving most of my excess cash into VMRXX instead of bonds(VLGSX). I now have ~5% of my portfolio in there, ~8% of my mortgage. Is this a crazy approach? I can always move it into bonds, albeit at a possible loss of gains if they move up quickly (and the money market stops paying) due to rate cuts. I still have ~8% in bonds from existing investments and ongoing 401k investment into bonds (VLGSX).

I have strayed from my investment plan, but I don't THINK I am taking undue risk; as I currently think of this cash as serving dual purpose of earning money while covering my mortgage balance, and helping me balance out my heavy stock portfolio. Am I missing signifiant risk? (I am not personally interested in active investing to hedge, I prefer investments to be a percentages game that I rarely think about, not something like cd ladders that have to fiddled with)

Heckler

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 10:45:08 AM »
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bond_basics

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Money_markets

In addition to increased/decreased interest payments, bonds experience capital gains or losses when interest rates change, where Money markets simply pay more or less interest.

Therefore, if you follow your IPS, buying bonds to your asset allocation when they're down in price is the right choice.  They'll either keep paying higher interest, or experience capital gains if interest rates go down.

Moving into bonds after interest rates go down and prices go up does not follow "buy low, sell high".
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 10:58:00 AM by Heckler »

Heckler

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2024, 11:00:40 AM »
trying to move to an ~80/20 portfolio (from a 100% stocks position for ~decade) to bring risks in line with my tolerance for relying on for income.
 
 

Trying to move to 80/20 is crazy.  If your IPS says 80/20, then sell stocks and buy bonds as per your IPS.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement

ak907

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2024, 11:29:31 AM »
trying to move to an ~80/20 portfolio (from a 100% stocks position for ~decade) to bring risks in line with my tolerance for relying on for income.
 
 

Trying to move to 80/20 is crazy.  If your IPS says 80/20, then sell stocks and buy bonds as per your IPS.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement

80/20 is my goal allocation when FIRE, which is 4-5 years away. I am adding money exclusively to bonds to reach that ratio, selling to reach it before needed would incur significant capital gains tax for no advantage.

ak907

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2024, 11:35:09 AM »
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Bond_basics

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Money_markets

In addition to increased/decreased interest payments, bonds experience capital gains or losses when interest rates change, where Money markets simply pay more or less interest.

Therefore, if you follow your IPS, buying bonds to your asset allocation when they're down in price is the right choice.  They'll either keep paying higher interest, or experience capital gains if interest rates go down.

Moving into bonds after interest rates go down and prices go up does not follow "buy low, sell high".

Fair enough, I did try to mention the loss of capital gains. Another way to look at it is if the Money Market dips below the mortgage interest rate, I can push the cash straight into the mortgage or another cash equivalent that still pays more than the mortgage.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2024, 12:22:11 AM »
That is a very large very low interest mortgage ($670 thousand,2.65%) and higher interest rates.
Mortgages under $750k are called "conforming", if I recall correctly, and they typically involve a tax deduction on the interest.  So that 2.65% might be further reduced by your tax bracket, to get the after-tax interest rate.

As a result I have taken to shoving most of my excess cash into VMRXX instead of bonds(VLGSX). I now have ~5% of my portfolio in there, ~8% of my mortgage.
Bond returns have been poor since 2005, but from 2005-2021 were reasonable.  Very recent performance has been bad for bonds, especially 2022.

When you include your mortgage in your retirement spending, I think that assumes you will be paying the mortgage off for the rest of your life.  I'd suggest separating a mortgage-sized chunk of your assets, and investing those with certainty, using it to pay off the mortgage.  You can leave 12 months of mortgage payments in cash, which earns interest - and is used to pay the mortgage.  But I'd suggest certainty for 2-5 years out, and using bank CDs instead of cash.

If you keep 5 years in cash, you may beat bank CDs or you may not.  If you purchase bank CDs that end in 2, 3, 4, and 5 years... you know for certain that your interest will beat your mortgage interest.  I'd favor certainty: put 12 months of mortgage into each CD, with no renewal.  Those CDs will automatically turn into cash.

ak907

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2024, 07:24:41 AM »
Thanks @MustacheAndaHalf your input is helpful. I like the CD's idea. It solves the returns risk/over-saving issue of covering the mortgage, while not loosing all returns on the money, neat solution, simple to implement.

Just a note, sadly I am not able to take advantage of the interest tax deduction, as I have to file separately from my wife to avoid my income being attached to her student loans and increasing her payment beyond what her salary would pay for. Itemizing is not allowed when married filing separately.

WayDownSouth

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2024, 06:29:09 PM »
I think assets are safer than both cash or bonds at this point. Cash is extremely attractive but is a non-investment, and bonds are never guaranteed (even though we tend to think they are). Remember, anything that's unrealized is not worth anything at all until it's realized (until then, it's just digits that you own.)

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds vs Cash
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2024, 07:00:15 AM »
...a very large very low interest mortgage ($670 thousand,2.65%) and higher interest rates. As discussed in the "don't pay off your mortgage" thread investing instead of using cash to pay off my mortgage makes too much sense (to me, personally the debt is not something that stresses me or something I think about). But the mortgage is ~50% of my expenses, and saving ~2x the value of the mortgage in order to meet safe withdrawal minimum to pay off said mortgage seems insane.
We are at the root of the question with these simple facts. If your housing cost, even before maintenance or other expenses, is 50% of your expenses, and if your mortgage is for $670,000, you are probably over-housed. This may be considered normal by the locals where you live if you are in a HCOL area, but it goes against traditional investment advice not to spend more than 30% of income on housing.

If we accept you can only spend what you're spending, and then try to go back to traditional sources of advice for things like asset allocation, we run into contradictions such as the POYM/DPOYM dilemma, or difficulties around early retirement while holding such an expensive property around your neck. That is to say, we can't violate major guidance and then expect the rest of the theoretical system of FIRE to work. What are the taxes on a property worth nearly a million dollars? Ten or twenty grand per year and rising? How much extra must you save to cover just that?

I could be reading this wrong. Maybe what you mean is that the rest of your spending is so low that a 2.65% mortgage looms over it. Maybe you have a high savings rate despite it all. Maybe it's a 2BR condo in a trendy locale instead of a McMansion in a LCOL area. Despite the details, it's a distorted spending profile compared to what early retirement authors and analysts from the 1990s to 20-teens were assuming. You're kinda blazing your own trail, along with a lot of other people these days, and maybe it'll all work out.

No, I would never pay down a 2.65% mortgage in a world where 5.4% is available risk-free, and 7% is available with moderate risk. But I also don't know if I could FIRE with such a property's ongoing expenses. It's a tricky spot to be in, and if there is significant positive equity I'd strongly consider hitting the eject button and moving to a LCOL or MCOL place to retire. By doing that, one could have a paid-off house, a much lower spend rate, a lower WR, lower non-discretionary expenses, and a much better-tested FIRE profile.   
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In addition to this the fact, the return on bonds has been negative to minimal for such a long time (it looks like rates are going to not see significant cuts for some time) and money markets (specifically Vanguard VMRXX) pay so much more. As a result I have taken to shoving most of my excess cash into VMRXX instead of bonds(VLGSX). I now have ~5% of my portfolio in there, ~8% of my mortgage. Is this a crazy approach? I can always move it into bonds, albeit at a possible loss of gains if they move up quickly (and the money market stops paying) due to rate cuts. I still have ~8% in bonds from existing investments and ongoing 401k investment into bonds (VLGSX).

I have strayed from my investment plan, but I don't THINK I am taking undue risk; as I currently think of this cash as serving dual purpose of earning money while covering my mortgage balance, and helping me balance out my heavy stock portfolio. Am I missing signifiant risk? (I am not personally interested in active investing to hedge, I prefer investments to be a percentages game that I rarely think about, not something like cd ladders that have to fiddled with)
I don't think it's safe to assume rates are not going down any time soon. The Federal Reserve thinks rates will fall, as does the futures market. And these forecasts do not even take into account the possibility of a recession or financial crisis necessitating a faster series of rate cuts. There's a strong consensus that a 5.5% federal funds rate is high and restrictive in a world where Core PCE is 2.8% and falling.

So thinking 2 steps ahead, what could happen is you sit in MM funds while bonds rally and their yields collapse in anticipation of rate cuts or in response to a recession. Then rates are cut and your MM yield immediately goes down. Suddenly, you're in a spot where bond yields have similarly gone down so there's no longer the opportunity to earn 5-6% in safe assets. At that point, any hopes of paying the mortgage through money market OR bond yields are crushed.

If you want to know why the yield curve is inverted, this is it. Everybody wants to be locked into longer-term yields before expected rate cuts occur, and their voracious demand for 5 year to 30 year treasuries has driven down the yields for those assets. High rates at the short end of the curve are seen as a temporary thing that will be unwound soon, so many people's preference is to lock in a yield so they can plan for the future.

I would caution against relying on CDs or callable bonds to lock in yield, because if rates are cut most of these debts will be called and you'll just have to roll them into new CDs or bonds at lower rates. This is not a way to ensure your high fixed housing costs are covered during FIRE, and is only marginally better than the money market approach. Treasuries are so popular and have such low yields, in part, because they are not callable. One can actually plan around them.

So in summary, your fixed income allocation only works to cover your high fixed expenses if you lock in yield with longer-duration, non-callable stuff that has a lower yield right now. You can either save up enough to cover your costs via treasury bonds or other non-callable bonds, OR you can FIRE by reducing your fixed expenses by selling the house and paying cash for a home in a LCOL location (or renting in a LCOL location).

 

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