Author Topic: Bonds !!!  (Read 49491 times)

Pomegranate12

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Bonds !!!
« on: January 05, 2021, 07:11:55 PM »
Alright so I added bonds to my portfolio last year. 
Over the next 5 years do you see any place for Bonds in your portfolio ?

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2021, 07:13:43 PM »
Nope.

Yields are too low for me.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2021, 07:15:48 PM »
Wondering if I should sell and hold cash for a good buying opportunity

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2021, 07:17:14 PM »
I follow a simple formula: Subtract my age from 100, and then invest everything in stocks.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2021, 07:19:34 PM »
Mr Collins recommends them to "smooth the ride"

cool7hand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2021, 06:49:12 AM »
We use Ray Dalio's All Season's (aka All Weather) Portfolio. Give it a Google. It is bond heavy, but the bonds are designed to decrease volatility. That fit's our situation and goals. Maybe it might fit yours.

mistymoney

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 08:12:35 AM »
I bought bonds for the first time last year, held them a week or so and then sold them.

Not sure if the low yield with potential loss of capital really bests cash as a position right now. I am also investigating dividend stocks as an alternative.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2021, 09:25:47 AM »
I don't see the point of getting excited about 1-2%, particularly given the sky-high interest rate risk. Big losses are very possible in bonds. Most people don't know that.

Why not take the dead money and buy hedges for your all-stock portfolio?

alcon835

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2021, 10:16:27 AM »
I plan to put some into Bonds shortly before I FIRE, but that may change depending on the size of my stash. More likely I'll do some sort of CD ladder to protect me against down years.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2021, 10:19:51 AM »
Mr Collins recommends them to "smooth the ride"

Bonds make it easier to weather the storm when the market periodically crashes.

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2021, 10:39:10 AM »
Mr Collins recommends them to "smooth the ride"

Bonds make it easier to weather the storm when the market periodically crashes.

Unless the storm is in bonds.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2021, 12:36:01 PM »
I follow a simple formula: Subtract my age from 100, and then invest everything in stocks.
The year is still young, but I hope this is one of the top quotes for 2021.  :)


I don't see the point of getting excited about 1-2%, particularly given the sky-high interest rate risk. Big losses are very possible in bonds. Most people don't know that.

Why not take the dead money and buy hedges for your all-stock portfolio?
That's true of long-term zero coupon bonds.  One mitigation strategy is to invest in short-term bond funds.  Their yield is even worse than 1-2% now, but they are far less impacted by changes in bond yields.  I would also add that most performance should come from equities, not bonds, so I avoid chasing performance with bonds.

---
One justification for bonds is their low correlation to stock performance.  Bond funds can even have a slight negative correlation according to portfolio visualizer's data.  So when stocks drop, it's very likely bonds have gone up slightly.  Note that doesn't apply to high yield "junk" bonds, which tend to move with stocks more.

3toesloth

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2021, 02:36:46 PM »
Bonds, Stocks, and Real estate all seem to be valued extremely high. Also, crypto and gold. Not much left besides cash. Since everything sucks right now I have a little of everything and a bunch of cash. Fed is backing everything right now, but are only allowed to back treasuries and some MBS owned by them. Maybe look for individual bonds 20-30 companies to get some diversification.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2021, 03:02:47 PM »
I don't get long term bonds right now, unless you think things will get worse and negative rates happen.   My non-equities are in low duration bonds (mix of intermediate and short term investment grade) and cash.   Doesn't pay much, maybe average of inflation rate.   I have an AA for a reason.  Besides, why would I want to go all in on equities NOW.   Of course I could be wrong, probably am.



habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2021, 03:12:12 PM »
I have zero bonds and wouldn't tuch'em with a long pole at mom. Mucho risk for no returns. For the "safe" part I rather go with no market risk and no returns. The local bond universe isn't great anyway.

I have some weird stuff in my pension agreement that has very much bond-like properties, but that's about it and I can't do anyting with it anyway. In my local market I can get FDIC (our local equivalent of it) yielding about 1.5% more than short-term govvies so I stick to that instead. That's basically dead cash as real yield after tax is probably -1.5% or so but it helps with the sleep plus it has some option value if equity markets should tank at some time and it also serves as my emergency fund despite being way too large for that purpose.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 03:30:19 PM »
I don't see the point of getting excited about 1-2%, particularly given the sky-high interest rate risk. Big losses are very possible in bonds. Most people don't know that.

Why not take the dead money and buy hedges for your all-stock portfolio?

Is this your plan for SORR? My SORR plan is DW still enjoys her work and I'm flexible on spending less than our FI goal... But I'd like to hear about other ideas. I also can't see getting excited about bonds that pay little and would loose substantial value if interest rates ever return to historic norms... Though I also have my doubts about at this point. How do we raise rates without causing a new housing market collapse after prices skyrocketed and people bought extra house because of low rates not to mention all the over leveraged corporations and governments around the world.

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 04:00:10 PM »
But I'd like to hear about other ideas.

I'm toying around with the idea, when time comes, to have a strategy where I keep a few years worth of expenses in some safe form. In that timeframe, for that amount, returns won't matter that much anyway relative to the rest of the stash and unless inflation goes ballistic a few years of no returns on a small portion of the total shouldn't alter the bigger picture. Each person have different flexibility but I think my interest in taking up some paid work aka "barista FIRE" will be extremely limited and I don't have any major illusions about my own employability if I've been out of the workforce for a few years.

Anyways, currently (very) ER isn't a big goal for me but FI is.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 09:04:49 PM »
I don't see the point of getting excited about 1-2%, particularly given the sky-high interest rate risk. Big losses are very possible in bonds. Most people don't know that.

Why not take the dead money and buy hedges for your all-stock portfolio?

Is this your plan for SORR? My SORR plan is DW still enjoys her work and I'm flexible on spending less than our FI goal... But I'd like to hear about other ideas. I also can't see getting excited about bonds that pay little and would loose substantial value if interest rates ever return to historic norms... Though I also have my doubts about at this point. How do we raise rates without causing a new housing market collapse after prices skyrocketed and people bought extra house because of low rates not to mention all the over leveraged corporations and governments around the world.

Yes. My thoughts exactly.

I'm not going to take 10 years' duration worth of interest rate risk just to earn 1% when inflation has been around 2% in the years prior to 2020. If energy prices take off again, the market will suddenly start to price in future increases. Stocks in that scenario would tank worse than bonds, as their discount rate would increase. So why not set oneself up in a limited loss / unlimited upside position using options?

I don't predict an outbreak of inflation, but I don't have to. A hedge could protect me in a number of scenarios.

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 10:05:32 PM »
I follow a simple formula: Subtract my age from 100, and then invest everything in stocks.
The year is still young, but I hope this is one of the top quotes for 2021.  :)

Glad someone noticed. ;)

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2021, 02:45:52 AM »
I agree that yields on Treasuries are lousy, but despite that I've been trying to bring my bond holdings up to the minimum amount of my portfolio in line with my desired asset allocation.

Ironically I think there's been enough short term selling that we've dipped below the 200dma and bonds may be due a bounce in the short term, especially when the next stock market selloff comes, so I'm not that pessimistic over the next 1-2 years.

For those who also find bonds unappealling... which I imagine is most people here.. what level of yields would make them more attractive and worth buying? 3% on the 30yr note? 4%? 5%?

I find that stock investors will always find a reason not to own fixed income because yields will always seem less appealing than the expect rate of return in equities.. but such perma-thinking would have meant missing out of much of one of the greatest bull markets we've ever seen over the last 30-40 years with much less volatility than other asset classes.

And remember that it's also entirely possible that stocks (especially US) could have a negative real 10 year return from this point if you believe that valuations are a large determinant of future return (indeed that is all that anyone looking at bond yields is doing). That would be a lot of risk for no reward.


As @ChpBstrd points out big losses can happen in bonds.. but they can happen in any asset.

People think that bonds and stocks are negatively correlated which is why they hold a mix of both, but this is incorrect. They are POSITIVELY correlated over the long term, and the correlation increases the longer the holding period. That is why stock/bond portfolios have worked so well for so long in the disinflationary environment we've had since the 1980s, falling yields have driven bond prices higher, while the falling interest rates have provided a strong tailwind to equities (and real estate too).

What does this mean? If bonds fall, then equities are certain to get walloped too. Yes, bonds will fall less, but they'll still move in the same direction. 

And it doesn't need to be nominal falls.. it may be due to inflation over a prolonged period. The maximum real drawdown in bonds is something like 62% on a real basis, but most of this was through inflation rather than nominal falls.




https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-02-12/bond-bear-markets-aren-t-measured-in-losses-alone
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 03:16:19 AM by vand »

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2021, 03:31:52 AM »
FWIW the TLT ETF is already down 15% from its March 2020 peak.
We have rarely seen nominal downdowns much larger than this in long term treasuries.. but then we have rarely seen interest rates so low either!

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2021, 05:19:44 AM »
Quote
For those who also find bonds unappealling... which I imagine is most people here.. what level of yields would make them more attractive and worth buying? 3% on the 30yr note? 4%? 5%?

Let’s say the earnings yield on stocks were 3-4% but the 30 year was yielding 8-9%. In that case I would favor bonds.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 07:31:04 AM »
Quote
For those who also find bonds unappealling... which I imagine is most people here.. what level of yields would make them more attractive and worth buying? 3% on the 30yr note? 4%? 5%?

Let’s say the earnings yield on stocks were 3-4% but the 30 year was yielding 8-9%. In that case I would favor bonds.

Which pretty much pidgeonholes you as a perma stock investor

celerystalks

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 08:23:03 AM »
Quote
For those who also find bonds unappealling... which I imagine is most people here.. what level of yields would make them more attractive and worth buying? 3% on the 30yr note? 4%? 5%?

Let’s say the earnings yield on stocks were 3-4% but the 30 year was yielding 8-9%. In that case I would favor bonds.

Which pretty much pidgeonholes you as a perma stock investor

Only if those conditions or similar ones never manifest.

In 2000 the earnings yield on stock was around 3.5 and the yield on the 30 year was ~6%. So in those times an allocation to bonds would have made much more sense.

But I turned 18 in 2000, so I did not have much capital to invest nor knowledge of investments at that time.

3toesloth

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 10:53:45 AM »
I agree that yields on Treasuries are lousy, but despite that I've been trying to bring my bond holdings up to the minimum amount of my portfolio in line with my desired asset allocation.
Good info, thanks.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 10:56:07 AM »
Warning to everyone in this thread: Don't try to time the market. Don't do it.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2021, 11:49:50 AM »
I agree that yields on Treasuries are lousy, but despite that I've been trying to bring my bond holdings up to the minimum amount of my portfolio in line with my desired asset allocation.
Good info, thanks.

Bond can still do well even from these yields under certain economic conditions, namely: DEFLATION.

If we enter let's say 3% deflation then let's say a 1.5% guaranteed return suddenly looks quite attractive.

Personally I don't think it's likely... the narrative is that with all the money printing going on in the world the idea of possible deflation is absurd, but there are deflationary forces at work in many Western economies as the baby boomers reach retirement age en masse, so who's to say how it will play out.

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2021, 02:03:28 AM »
If we enter let's say 3% deflation then let's say a 1.5% guaranteed return suddenly looks quite attractive.

Personally I don't think it's likely... the narrative is that with all the money printing going on in the world the idea of possible deflation is absurd, but there are deflationary forces at work in many Western economies as the baby boomers reach retirement age en masse, so who's to say how it will play out.

There is quite a lot of repricing of future US inflation in the market these days. 5y annual inflation in 5 years is now trading at just under 2.4%, the highest it has traded since late 2014 is just over 2.5%. This is just a derivatives market and that it trades there now does of course in no way mean it will actually be there in 5 year's time, but it's a siginficant factor in why bond yields are ticking up at mom.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2021, 03:05:20 AM »
It's worth pointing out that, unlike in the world of equities where the vast majority of Active management underperform their benchmark, in the Fixed Income space MORE active managers beat their benchmark than don't - bond picking is a game you are much more likely to win.

This is because in equities your upside is uncapped, and equity markets are driven by a small handful of outperforming stocks, but in the Bond space the upside is capped, so there is no excess reward for own Tesla or Apple debt. Bond managers don't need to pick the best companies, they just need to avoid the defaults..


https://moneyweek.com/505936/are-bond-fund-managers-smarter-than-equity-fund-managers
Quote
"Mauboussin pulls out the "intermediate-term", "corporate" and "high-yield" categories. Over ten years, more than half of the active funds in every category manage to beat their benchmark. "
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 03:14:55 AM by vand »

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2021, 03:20:17 AM »
"Mauboussin pulls out the "intermediate-term", "corporate" and "high-yield" categories. Over ten years, more than half of the active funds in every category manage to beat their benchmark. "
[/quote]

Bond Fund management 101 is to pick a rather irrelevant benchmark you are highly likely to outperform.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2021, 04:42:24 AM »
"Mauboussin pulls out the "intermediate-term", "corporate" and "high-yield" categories. Over ten years, more than half of the active funds in every category manage to beat their benchmark. "

Bond Fund management 101 is to pick a rather irrelevant benchmark you are highly likely to outperform.
[/quote]

And what's to stop equity managers doing the same?
Are bond investors just so stupid that active fund managers can pull the wool over their eyes by investing in emerging market debt but benchmark myself against 5 year treasuries? I don't think it's that simple.


habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2021, 05:07:52 AM »

And what's to stop equity managers doing the same?
Are bond investors just so stupid that active fund managers can pull the wool over their eyes by investing in emerging market debt but benchmark myself against 5 year treasuries? I don't think it's that simple.

Nothing, and equity funds to some extent do the same. We have a tech fund here whcich has had spectacular performance relative to index funds lately. That's because a broad index is the wrong measure of success, compared to say the MSCI tech index its more "meh". And a large part of the returns also come from weakening of the domestic currency as the fund is non-hedged while the broad indices are in USD. Its branded as the best recent returns available, which it is, but not because the managers are geniuses - its due to the mandate and lack of currency hedging.

In the US you can probably buy the relevant index via some ETF as the US market has en ETF for pretty much anything that moves - its much easier for an individual investor to own a relevant benchmark in equities than in bonds.

I think bond investors are more sophisticated than equity investors. Bonds are more complex on one hand and more fungible on another. If you want to own treasuries it's not terribly irrelevant exactly which bond you own as long as the duration is roughly identical. There is a fuckton of US treasuries outstanding and bar big differences in coupon rate similar maturities will perform pretty much the same. If you want to invest in say Exxon Mobile you have exactly 1 equity you can buy. If you want to own their bonds you have tens of bonds with maturities from 2 to 20 years which have very different risks and returns, they even have bonds in foreign currencies if that for some reason should be of interest.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 12:01:28 PM by habanero »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2021, 08:32:23 AM »
One justification for bonds is their low correlation to stock performance.  Bond funds can even have a slight negative correlation according to portfolio visualizer's data.  So when stocks drop, it's very likely bonds have gone up slightly.  Note that doesn't apply to high yield "junk" bonds, which tend to move with stocks more.

People think that bonds and stocks are negatively correlated which is why they hold a mix of both, but this is incorrect. They are POSITIVELY correlated over the long term, and the correlation increases the longer the holding period. That is why stock/bond portfolios have worked so well for so long in the disinflationary environment we've had since the 1980s, falling yields have driven bond prices higher, while the falling interest rates have provided a strong tailwind to equities (and real estate too).
Market data from portfolio visualizer shows a negative correlation between stocks and bonds.  It's also conventional wisdom that stocks and bonds have low correlations.  Your post claims that market data and conventional wisdom are incorrect, but you fail to provide evidence for your views.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-class-correlations

For those who rebalance annually, change the time period on that page to "annual", and notice how AGG (iShares Aggregate Bond ETF) has negative correlations with the S&P 500, mid-caps and small-caps.

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2021, 09:27:07 AM »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2021, 09:54:32 AM »
One justification for bonds is their low correlation to stock performance.  Bond funds can even have a slight negative correlation according to portfolio visualizer's data.  So when stocks drop, it's very likely bonds have gone up slightly.  Note that doesn't apply to high yield "junk" bonds, which tend to move with stocks more.

People think that bonds and stocks are negatively correlated which is why they hold a mix of both, but this is incorrect. They are POSITIVELY correlated over the long term, and the correlation increases the longer the holding period. That is why stock/bond portfolios have worked so well for so long in the disinflationary environment we've had since the 1980s, falling yields have driven bond prices higher, while the falling interest rates have provided a strong tailwind to equities (and real estate too).
Market data from portfolio visualizer shows a negative correlation between stocks and bonds.  It's also conventional wisdom that stocks and bonds have low correlations.  Your post claims that market data and conventional wisdom are incorrect, but you fail to provide evidence for your views.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-class-correlations

For those who rebalance annually, change the time period on that page to "annual", and notice how AGG (iShares Aggregate Bond ETF) has negative correlations with the S&P 500, mid-caps and small-caps.

It is historically correct that bonds were usually counter-correlated with stocks, because interest rates were cut when things occurred that would hurt stocks, like recessions.

Since the early 80's however, both stocks and bonds have gone up together as rates were cut from historically high levels - around 15% for treasuries and even higher for corporates! That particular scenario is not happening again anytime soon.

Looking a few years into the future, there is little remaining room to cut interest rates below zero, and one could argue lots of pressure building to raise them. If something happens that causes stocks to go down, there will not necessarily be the traditional rate cut to boost bonds. Fed officials have already expressed resistance to negative rates like happened in the Eurozone. Instead, we'll probably see more QE or helicopter money to address the next recession because these worked like a charm in 2020 and prevented a depression, even near ZIRP. And if that doesn't happen (e.g. because of austerity politics) then stocks could tank without any benefit to bondholders.

Scenarios:
1) Recession addressed with QE/heli-money instead of interest rates: bonds remain flat while yielding nearly nothing. Stocks zig zag.
2) 3-5% inflation which the fed tries to control with QT instead of interest rate increases (have you seen the size of their QT war chest?). Stocks would probably decline while bond investors get large negative real returns and rates would eventually rise anyway.
3) Fast growth / low inflation allows the fed to keep rates low for years: bonds flat and yield nearly nothing while stocks boom.
4) 20% collapse in value of USD dollar vs. basket. Fed attempts QE to keep interest rates artificially low but market demand causes interest rates to rise. Bonds lose piles of money as interest rates go up to India levels.

The one bonds-up/stocks-down scenario where an investor would get a sustained opportunity to rebalance from very appreciated bonds to very cheap stocks would be a bear market accompanied by a drop to sub-zero interest rates. If a deflationary crisis occurred and the 10y US treasury went from today's 1% to -0.5% like in Germany, bonds would be going up while stocks go down. Holding bonds yielding less than inflation is a bet on this one scenario. In the other scenarios, depending on the specifics, either cash or stocks would probably do better. Regardless of the realistic probability one assigns to each scenario, the expected value of bonds is low enough to be virtually equal to cash. E.g. the probability weighted outcome of all the scenarios has to be close to an inflation-adjusted zero, unless one is a zealous about a particular scenario.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2021, 11:36:10 AM »
One justification for bonds is their low correlation to stock performance.  Bond funds can even have a slight negative correlation according to portfolio visualizer's data.  So when stocks drop, it's very likely bonds have gone up slightly.  Note that doesn't apply to high yield "junk" bonds, which tend to move with stocks more.

People think that bonds and stocks are negatively correlated which is why they hold a mix of both, but this is incorrect. They are POSITIVELY correlated over the long term, and the correlation increases the longer the holding period. That is why stock/bond portfolios have worked so well for so long in the disinflationary environment we've had since the 1980s, falling yields have driven bond prices higher, while the falling interest rates have provided a strong tailwind to equities (and real estate too).
Market data from portfolio visualizer shows a negative correlation between stocks and bonds.  It's also conventional wisdom that stocks and bonds have low correlations.  Your post claims that market data and conventional wisdom are incorrect, but you fail to provide evidence for your views.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-class-correlations

For those who rebalance annually, change the time period on that page to "annual", and notice how AGG (iShares Aggregate Bond ETF) has negative correlations with the S&P 500, mid-caps and small-caps.

It is historically correct that bonds were usually counter-correlated with stocks, because interest rates were cut when things occurred that would hurt stocks, like recessions.

Since the early 80's however, both stocks and bonds have gone up together as rates were cut from historically high levels - around 15% for treasuries and even higher for corporates! That particular scenario is not happening again anytime soon.

Looking a few years into the future, there is little remaining room to cut interest rates below zero, and one could argue lots of pressure building to raise them. If something happens that causes stocks to go down, there will not necessarily be the traditional rate cut to boost bonds. Fed officials have already expressed resistance to negative rates like happened in the Eurozone. Instead, we'll probably see more QE or helicopter money to address the next recession because these worked like a charm in 2020 and prevented a depression, even near ZIRP. And if that doesn't happen (e.g. because of austerity politics) then stocks could tank without any benefit to bondholders.

Scenarios:
1) Recession addressed with QE/heli-money instead of interest rates: bonds remain flat while yielding nearly nothing. Stocks zig zag.
2) 3-5% inflation which the fed tries to control with QT instead of interest rate increases (have you seen the size of their QT war chest?). Stocks would probably decline while bond investors get large negative real returns and rates would eventually rise anyway.
3) Fast growth / low inflation allows the fed to keep rates low for years: bonds flat and yield nearly nothing while stocks boom.
4) 20% collapse in value of USD dollar vs. basket. Fed attempts QE to keep interest rates artificially low but market demand causes interest rates to rise. Bonds lose piles of money as interest rates go up to India levels.

The one bonds-up/stocks-down scenario where an investor would get a sustained opportunity to rebalance from very appreciated bonds to very cheap stocks would be a bear market accompanied by a drop to sub-zero interest rates. If a deflationary crisis occurred and the 10y US treasury went from today's 1% to -0.5% like in Germany, bonds would be going up while stocks go down. Holding bonds yielding less than inflation is a bet on this one scenario. In the other scenarios, depending on the specifics, either cash or stocks would probably do better. Regardless of the realistic probability one assigns to each scenario, the expected value of bonds is low enough to be virtually equal to cash. E.g. the probability weighted outcome of all the scenarios has to be close to an inflation-adjusted zero, unless one is a zealous about a particular scenario.
I looked at correlations over several time frames, comparing the S&P 500 and Total Bond market using two Vanguard funds (VFIAX and VBLTX).  Using annual correlation, I found something interesting on portfolio visualizer:
For 10-20 years, going back to 1/1/2001, there's a negative correlation.
But for the past 5 years, they have a 0.89 correlation.

So recently it looks like REITs are a better diversifier than bonds, with a 0.55 correlation (better than international or emerging markets, actually).  I can vouch for my REIT holding going nowhere while my other equity picks do well.  :)

---
As to inflation, as of Dec 10th 2020:
"Over the last 12 months, the all items index increased 1.2 percent before seasonal adjustment."  And later on:
"The all items index rose 1.2 percent for the 12 months ending November, the
 same increase as for the period ending October."
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

That seems like an interesting scenario as well, inflation close to it's current 1.2% level.  Since that's the current inflation rate, I would expect stocks do well as bonds don't do much.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2021, 12:43:07 PM »
What can treasuries do for you that cash can't?
In exchange for a steaming pile of interest rate risk, you get 1% interest and no guarantee of negative correlation with other assets.
I'll leave that asset class to governments and institutional investors who cannot cover their deposits with free FDIC insurance.

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2021, 03:07:03 PM »
What can treasuries do for you that cash can't?
In exchange for a steaming pile of interest rate risk, you get 1% interest and no guarantee of negative correlation with other assets.
I'll leave that asset class to governments and institutional investors who cannot cover their deposits with free FDIC insurance.

FDIC insured cash and treasuries are pretty much the same thing. Long-dated treasuries are entirely different beasts with massively different risks and returns. And despite low yields at the moment its not like you canntot get capital gains. Folks said the same when german 10y govvies were yielding 1%  - it was returnless risk. Now they yield -0.60% or so. Returns from owning them has been pretty decent. Will it repeat? Most likely not. But real returns of us treasuries aren't that low - they're much lower elsewhere. Would I buy long-dated treasuries at current yeilds? N00. But it's not like they cannto still provide juicy returns despite low yields.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2021, 02:29:52 AM »
What can treasuries do for you that cash can't?
In exchange for a steaming pile of interest rate risk, you get 1% interest and no guarantee of negative correlation with other assets.
I'll leave that asset class to governments and institutional investors who cannot cover their deposits with free FDIC insurance.
That's how I see it.  Vanguard Long-Term Treasuries (VGLT) with a duration of 18.7 years is closest to the 20 year treasury bonds.  Those bonds gained +0.21% yield this week/year, which caused VGLT to 3.9%.
https://investor.vanguard.com/etf/profile/portfolio/vglt
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/pages/textview.aspx?data=yield
[Duration sanity check: -1 x 18.7 x .21 = -3.9% , duration worked]

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2021, 06:38:01 AM »
The selloff in the bond market continues!

Anyone who made the decision to dump their bonds for equities over the couse of last year, with hindsight, made a very good move. Bonds have been absolutely hammered since the summer!

I look at the chart on TLT and think its due a bounce soon, but no sign of it. The yield on the 30yr Treasury note is now pretty much right where it was 1 year ago before all this covid business kicked off.


ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2021, 10:34:46 AM »
The selloff in the bond market continues!

Anyone who made the decision to dump their bonds for equities over the couse of last year, with hindsight, made a very good move. Bonds have been absolutely hammered since the summer!

I look at the chart on TLT and think its due a bounce soon, but no sign of it. The yield on the 30yr Treasury note is now pretty much right where it was 1 year ago before all this covid business kicked off.

Just think, many of the people piling into TLT back in July went into Treasuries because they wanted something safe.
Instead they lost 15%.
And there was never any significant upside anyway.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2021, 12:50:13 PM »
The selloff in the bond market continues!

Anyone who made the decision to dump their bonds for equities over the couse of last year, with hindsight, made a very good move. Bonds have been absolutely hammered since the summer!

I look at the chart on TLT and think its due a bounce soon, but no sign of it. The yield on the 30yr Treasury note is now pretty much right where it was 1 year ago before all this covid business kicked off.

Just think, many of the people piling into TLT back in July went into Treasuries because they wanted something safe.
Instead they lost 15%.
And there was never any significant upside anyway.

Return-free risk as the joke goes!

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2021, 01:37:23 PM »

Return-free risk as the joke goes!

They (I as well...) said that about german govvies yielding 1% as well, but they went to -0.60% so handsome cap gains on that. You can make a line of reasoning for bonds getting completely hammered (inflation, fed hiking etc) but its entirely possible to make one where trasury yields go much lower and stay there for a very, very long time. It's not like it hasn't happened elsewhere - like much of Europe and Japan.

Italy issued 10y bonds today btw. They did a 10y note and the auction cleared at a yield of 0.604%. They issued a total of 10bn EUR, but the order book was the biggest on record totalling 110 bn EUR so there was demand galore. And that's for a nation with no economic growth for the past 10y + and a debt to gdp ratio siginficantly higher than the US. They can't even print their own currency to repay like the US can.

Not that I personally thing US treasuries will go -ve, but a lot of things noone thought possible has happened over the last years in debt markets.

vand

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2021, 11:35:41 AM »
I dunno if it's appropriate to call this a crash... but it seems like the bond selloff is accelerating to the downside.

Yields rising all the time.

10yr note now at 1.353%
30yr note now at 2.146%

The bond market is clearly signalling something different to the mainstream narrative of interest rates being held "as low and possible for as long as possible".

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2021, 12:11:56 PM »
I dunno if it's appropriate to call this a crash... but it seems like the bond selloff is accelerating to the downside.

Yields rising all the time.

10yr note now at 1.353%
30yr note now at 2.146%

The bond market is clearly signalling something different to the mainstream narrative of interest rates being held "as low and possible for as long as possible".

For context, this time last year it was:
10y: 1.56%
30y: 2.01%

Of course, by then the early warnings about Covid were starting to be digested, so looking at Jan 2, 2020 rates were:
10y: 1.88%
30y: 2.33%

Both of these times were considered to be an economic wide-open-throttle with full employment and <2% inflation. Of course, now unemployment is 6.3% instead of 3.5%. My interpretation is that the treasury market is maintaining about the same inflation estimates as they had a year ago.

Observations:
1) Apparently, monetarists are going extinct.
2) Apparently, moving to bonds in response to volatility is a horrible decision, because the recovery kills you. Be a contrarian instead.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2021, 12:23:36 PM »
CNBC discussed it today, thinking that if interest rates keep pace with the recovery, it's not a problem - just reflecting a recovery in demand.  To me, 0.5% in 1.5 months seems rather fast - faster than the recovery.  I wonder if interest rates will level off after the stimulus bill puts checks in people's hands?

Bonds generally suffer under rising interest rates, since the latest bonds have better yields than older bonds.  So if that's what we're looking at for 2021, bonds might be "return free risk" as vand said.

Not sure what kind of world we're in where vand talks bonds and *I* bring up gold, but here goes.  SPDR Gold ETF (GLD) hit a 6 month low yesterday, so I bought call options to get leveraged gold exposure.  If we're facing inflation, gold should do fine.  It also has a low correlation to stocks and bonds, according to Portfolio Visualizer.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/asset-class-correlations

I see CCL up +7.5% and Macy's +2.9%, so there could be a recovery story in today's increase in the 30 year yield.  My guess is we'll know better in March, when the stimulus bill should pass (through budget reconciliation, so it can't be blocked in the Senate).

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2021, 12:24:27 PM »
I dunno if it's appropriate to call this a crash... but it seems like the bond selloff is accelerating to the downside.

Yields rising all the time.

10yr note now at 1.353%
30yr note now at 2.146%

The bond market is clearly signalling something different to the mainstream narrative of interest rates being held "as low and possible for as long as possible".

Its mostly inflation expectations - those have been climbing steadily. At least that's the most used narrative (if its correct is another question, of course). If/when the Fed starts tapering it can get very ugly in bondland. And in equities, for that matter. That's a fairly obvious case where bonds probably won't offset equities. Bonds get hammered and equities start looking less attractive. On the other had money has to be put somewhere.

When bond yields move a lot there are very strong forces at play as players who have massive books have to adjust their positions.

As mentioned upthred I dont have any bonds except for a weird thing in my pension which has very much bond-like properties (it has a fixed nominal yearly payout from age 67 until I die). Currently it's better than any bond available to me in the market, but if yields go up a lot I might look at converting it into something else, but that's a one-way street and once I go away from the guaranteed setup I can't go back.

I know very little about US social security, but most folks who has that should, in my opinion, view that as a proportion of bond allocation when calculating the total. These are generally a fixed sum for life, said sum is at least somewhat adjusted for inflation in most cases and it is there as long as you have a detectable pulse. This is the perfect retirement instrument, unfortunately it tends to kick in quite late in life.

habanero

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2021, 12:30:31 PM »
Bonds generally suffer under rising interest rates

Bonds always suffer under rising interest rates everything else being equal (i.e. credit spreads unchanged)

Quote
since the latest bonds have better yields than older bonds.
Nope, the yields tend to be pretty similar for similar maturities for the same issuer. Older bonds have higher coupons, but since they have that you also have to pay a lot more to buy them so if you buy an old treasury paying a 5% coupon your yield is much lower as it will trade at a premium. You have to pay more than 100 for the bond but get back only 100 at maturity, thus lowering your yield.  The difference in coupon rates is above all a change in bond convexity and interest sensitivity. The higher the coupon the shorter the modified duration and that means lower sensitivity to interest rates.

If you buy a 10y note with a 1% coupon and one with a 5% coupon at similar effective yields and rates go up a lot your loss won't be the same - the low-coupon bond will have higher interest sensitvity due to its higher duration.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 12:42:09 PM by habanero »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2021, 12:32:53 PM »
CNBC discussed it today, thinking that if interest rates keep pace with the recovery, it's not a problem - just reflecting a recovery in demand.  To me, 0.5% in 1.5 months seems rather fast - faster than the recovery. 

The President attempting a poorly organized coup and the financial system almost seizing due to the late January short squeeze artificially reduced interest rates. Suddenly, both fears evaporated and we're back to par.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Bonds !!!
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2021, 03:58:50 PM »
A couple of thoughts -

The economy is weak but recovering and that is expected to accelerate.  (assuming restrictions continue to ease and vaccinations increase)

Unemployment is weak but recovering and that is expected to accelerate.  (assuming restrictions continue to ease and vaccinations increase)

Corporate earnings are beating estimates and accelerating (expected to be back to pre-covid level run rate in next quarter to end of year).

Stock market is at all time highs. 

Bonds go down when rates rise.  They are right now! 

So what's the problem - the above are all related.    Economy is improving because of a shit ton of stimulus (a trillion of which is still yet to be deployed and maybe another $2 trillion plus infrastructure on the horizon) and covid restrictions lifted - good for economy and stock market, not so great for people or bond rates.  Bond rates rise, not so great for stock market or long duration investors but good for savers who can move cash/short duration into higher yield or lower prices stocks.    Most of the corporate earnings beat/recovery has come from expense cutting, not top line revenue growth.   So when things start to improve on the top line - hiring and therefore expenses will rise - good for employment and economy, not so good for earnings.   As these people go back to work and government transfer payments stop, people will have to start spending on things that they did in the past, instead of just putting money into the market or paying down debt - good for the economy, not so great for the stock market. 

Blah blah blah - to reiterate what i said above, anything with duration still makes no sense.   But rates are rising and I will continue, I think to the 2% level. It can't be and won't be ignored by the markets and earnings will lag a bit. 

As for the link to inflation, fed thinks is selling that all the inflationary data is temporary one time pops.  It may be, but when the lagging data comes out the bond and therefore the stock market won't care and will adjust, even if temporarily (buying opportunity).

More likely than not stocks will be flattish (with moderate volatility) over the near to medium term.   Sort of regression to the mean as all the above shit sorts out.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!