Author Topic: Bitcoin is funny money  (Read 156646 times)

Syonyk

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #150 on: January 08, 2021, 10:02:00 AM »
I don't think it's a good advice adding BTC to your portfolio or any crypto for that matter for folks reading on this forum on their way to achieve FIRE. It's a very risky asset that can easily drop 80% or more without any reason.

Sure, so don't put all your assets in it.  But I've been hearing this same refrain for the last decade, and the reality has been that anyone with a small chunk of their assets in BTC has done exceedingly well on that class.

If you put $1000 in at the first "insane, bubble, tulip mania, this is stupid, it'll crash to 0!" peak in late 2013, even if you sold it on the swing up at $30k in late 2020, 3000% in 7 years ain't half bad.  And if you lost that entire $1000, well... OK.  Shouldn't be a big deal.

On the path to FIRE, I think there absolutely is a place for a small portion of assets held in high risk assets.  I'm aware it's a minority opinion around here, but once you're well enough established on the path, tossing a few grand into high risk shouldn't meaningfully impact your FIRE time if it fails totally, and could very well accelerate you substantially if it succeeds.

Is it obvious to anyone else that with the wild swings and very shallow market, that bitcoin is basically a pump and dump scam?

That various groups have used bitcoin for pump and dump stuff has been obvious since the very, very early days, when anyone with $50k could swing the price all over the place on the common exchanges.

It's nothing unique to bitcoin.  Any low market cap asset is subject to these sort of swings, and they happen regularly.  As the market cap increases, and trading depth increases, it becomes harder and harder to accomplish that sort of thing.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #151 on: January 08, 2021, 10:44:58 AM »
You're right that I exaggerated in my original post, saying there was "no place" to short bitcoin.  But I didn't expect mainstream investment choices to be put on a par with websites like the one you gave as an example.

Not sure why you're going on about BitMex. That's not my argument. I've never used them and they've never had any of my business.
Because you brought it up, and cited it as the biggest example:

You can short bitcoin on several exchange/broker websites (BitMex probably being the largest)

The amount of money invested in Bitcoin is dwarfed by the mainstream investment houses and markets.  There's trusted brokerages in the U.S. like Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab - all of which must abide by strict U.S. laws.  There's a big gap between that and websites who remain in poorly regulated locations.

Where did I put mainstream investment choices on par with bitcoin exchanges? I don't recall making that comparison anywhere at all. Care to quote me where I did?

Ya, I simply cited it as one example. I didn't cite it as an all high and mighty example of ethics. I mean, by that measure, there probably aren't too many banks that would fit that bill. Considering banks like Deutsche Bank considers the billions in fines they pay every year for money laundering an other illicit activity as just a cost of doing business (because that business is much more lucrative than the fine), I wouldn't exactly hold banks up as a pillar of good. At any rate, again, that was never my argument.

Again, I never compared bitcoin exchanges to the likes of Vanguard, Fidelity, or Schwab (feel free to quote me) and I've mentioned numerous times that the market for bitcoin is extremely small in comparison with the rest of the economy. That was never in dispute nor was it ever an argument of mine. I was simply saying that there certainly is some downward pressure on bitcoin because of shorting that takes place. This is empirical truth since there have been numerous short squeezes that have taken place that have caused the price to skyrocket further higher. If a short squeeze can cause the price to push even higher, then it stands to reason that the downward pressure from that short was equivalent. At the end of the day, while you may consider going long as being reckless, I think we can at least agree that going short is even more so.

Ya, that's not true. You can short bitcoin on several exchange/broker websites (BitMex probably being the largest). I track many of the larger transactions that take place and there were several very large liquidated shorts that just took place after bitcoin just breached $35k ($6.4M, $2.4M, and $1.3M). In fact, short squeezes in bitcoin are often what cause many of the larger upside swings. Long story short though is that not many choose to short bitcoin because it is absolutely stupid to do so with something that is so lopsided toward buy demand and who's upside is so tremendously high.

Also, for what its worth, in regards to "many threads on forums", let's not forget that this one was started by a bear. Seems like bears are just as likely to come out of the wood work when prices go high as bulls are.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #152 on: January 08, 2021, 11:12:50 AM »
I don't think it's a good advice adding BTC to your portfolio or any crypto for that matter for folks reading on this forum on their way to achieve FIRE. It's a very risky asset that can easily drop 80% or more without any reason.

Sure, so don't put all your assets in it.  But I've been hearing this same refrain for the last decade, and the reality has been that anyone with a small chunk of their assets in BTC has done exceedingly well on that class.

To further add to this, investing is all about one's risk appetite. There was an analysis that was performed that looked at returns and risk of investments. The comparison was between a portfolio that consisted of 99% cash and 1% bitcoin versus a 100% S&P500 stock portfolio. The 99% cash with 1% bitcoin portfolio not only outperformed the stock portfolio over the course of 10 years and also for any 4-year period, but also carried less risk.

This is what I feel people who aren't understanding about such a asymmetric investment like this. Not only do I see people on here make completely false remarks in regards to what bitcoin is, how it works, or what it is trying to accomplish, but I feel like people aren't grasping its potential place in one's portfolio not only to help increase your returns, but also to help reduce your risk. I'm not saying that you should get out of stocks and go 99% cash and 1% bitcoin. But to realize that a 1% holding of bitcoin in your portfolio can help you not only diversify into one of the only apolitical assets in the world, but carries much higher upside than the minimal downside that it risks in your overall portfolio. There is a reason why a growing number of institutions are putting some on their balance sheets. It isn't so they can gamble with their stockholders money, it is because they've done the risk analysis and are now understanding that bitcoin is different from what they previously understood it to be. They now understand there is a place for it and the market is being re-priced accordingly.

There have been rushes for land in the American west to carve out a piece of land for future generations since it is scarce and limited. There was a rush for gold in the 1800s during the California gold rush since it is scarce and limited. There was a rush for valuable domain names on the internet since they're scarce and limited. And now there is a rush for bitcoin on the world's first decentralized monetary network because it is scarce and limited.

Feel free to continue to criticize bitcoin and show that you don't understand why society might value a completely decentralized monetary network that isn't controlled by a single government. In my opinion, there will continue to be a growing desire for a global asset that isn't influenced by the whim of any single government or entity. There is absolutely value in that and clearly the market is realizing this.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:55:54 PM by lifeanon269 »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #153 on: January 08, 2021, 01:26:17 PM »

Sure, so don't put all your assets in it.  But I've been hearing this same refrain for the last decade, and the reality has been that anyone with a small chunk of their assets in BTC has done exceedingly well on that class.

If you put $1000 in at the first "insane, bubble, tulip mania, this is stupid, it'll crash to 0!" peak in late 2013, even if you sold it on the swing up at $30k in late 2020, 3000% in 7 years ain't half bad.  And if you lost that entire $1000, well... OK.  Shouldn't be a big deal.

On the path to FIRE, I think there absolutely is a place for a small portion of assets held in high risk assets.  I'm aware it's a minority opinion around here, but once you're well enough established on the path, tossing a few grand into high risk shouldn't meaningfully impact your FIRE time if it fails totally, and could very well accelerate you substantially if it succeeds.

The issue with this approach is that there are hundreds of thousands of sketchy or low-probability investment opportunities around us at all times. There are over 2,000 cryptocurrencies now, and new ones being launched regularly. At least 99% of these won't survive, right? A millionaire allocating 100% to speculation would run out of money long before scratching the surface. This is not even counting penny stocks, options, futures, gambles, MLM schemes, pump-and-dumps, forex opportunities, or emails from Nigerian princes. Spending a few grand on lotto tickets might seem rational in hindsight when those certain lotto tickets win, but without hindsight it gets a little harder to make money speculating on what other people will speculate on in the future.

https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/

Syonyk

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #154 on: January 08, 2021, 01:42:06 PM »
FFS.  I'm not saying to make the bulk of your investing in weird, speculative weeds.  Just that keeping a bit of it around doesn't really do much harm.

I know people who put some pocket change in TSLA back in the day because they thought the company would fail, but generally believed in the concept, and it's been pretty nice to them.  If it went to 0, well... OK.  It hasn't.  Same, winding back further, with Apple in the early 2000s, Microsoft, etc.  "I think this has a chance of doing well, even though it's unproven" is worth a small fraction of one's investing, IMO.

I can't tell other people what to invest in, and I'm certainly not advocating going nuts with the concept, but "Eh, seems promising, worth a shot!" stuff has a place.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #155 on: January 08, 2021, 02:16:34 PM »
FFS.  I'm not saying to make the bulk of your investing in weird, speculative weeds.  Just that keeping a bit of it around doesn't really do much harm.

I know people who put some pocket change in TSLA back in the day because they thought the company would fail, but generally believed in the concept, and it's been pretty nice to them.  If it went to 0, well... OK.  It hasn't.  Same, winding back further, with Apple in the early 2000s, Microsoft, etc.  "I think this has a chance of doing well, even though it's unproven" is worth a small fraction of one's investing, IMO.

I can't tell other people what to invest in, and I'm certainly not advocating going nuts with the concept, but "Eh, seems promising, worth a shot!" stuff has a place.

I get making investments in companies making products that you notice other people buying like Windows computers, Apple phones, Netflix subscriptions, Amazon boxes, Salesforce at work, Zoom calls, etc. In these cases, one has a reason to believe the stock will rise - reasons that are not yet on the balance sheet or income statement. Great product experiences are the closest we'll get to insider information because the Wall Street analysts are not yet aware.

The simpler version of speculation is "tossing a few grand into high risk" and that's the part I can't get behind. Such a mentality would fall right into the hands of people who set up high-risk ventures just to extract profit and then get out. E.g. one path to riches is to set up a publicly traded company with a compelling narrative, sell one's equity to the public, go bankrupt, and repeat. I'll wade into risk if I see a reason, but not for the sake of it. Will I miss a lot of opportunities that way? Sure. Won't lose money either.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #156 on: January 08, 2021, 02:26:47 PM »

Sure, so don't put all your assets in it.  But I've been hearing this same refrain for the last decade, and the reality has been that anyone with a small chunk of their assets in BTC has done exceedingly well on that class.

If you put $1000 in at the first "insane, bubble, tulip mania, this is stupid, it'll crash to 0!" peak in late 2013, even if you sold it on the swing up at $30k in late 2020, 3000% in 7 years ain't half bad.  And if you lost that entire $1000, well... OK.  Shouldn't be a big deal.

On the path to FIRE, I think there absolutely is a place for a small portion of assets held in high risk assets.  I'm aware it's a minority opinion around here, but once you're well enough established on the path, tossing a few grand into high risk shouldn't meaningfully impact your FIRE time if it fails totally, and could very well accelerate you substantially if it succeeds.

The issue with this approach is that there are hundreds of thousands of sketchy or low-probability investment opportunities around us at all times. There are over 2,000 cryptocurrencies now, and new ones being launched regularly. At least 99% of these won't survive, right? A millionaire allocating 100% to speculation would run out of money long before scratching the surface. This is not even counting penny stocks, options, futures, gambles, MLM schemes, pump-and-dumps, forex opportunities, or emails from Nigerian princes. Spending a few grand on lotto tickets might seem rational in hindsight when those certain lotto tickets win, but without hindsight it gets a little harder to make money speculating on what other people will speculate on in the future.

https://coinmarketcap.com/all/views/all/

And this is probably the typical response that I hear and my biggest piece of advice to anyone who says something along these lines when speaking about bitcoin would be to understand the fundamental difference between bitcoin and the rest of the cryptocurrency market. There is zero comparison and if you're making that comparison, then I feel the biggest improvement to one's knowledge on the subject would be to understand why bitcoin is different from the rest.

I wrote a little bit on the subject here in this post:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/bitcoin-is-funny-money/msg2765416/#msg2765416

At the end of the day it comes down to what the benefits of a blockchain provide the world and the fact that bitcoin is the simplest form of a blockchain's benefit. There is nothing fancy about what bitcoin does, but that is what makes it the best and most secure blockchain. It's proof-of-work mechanism is the simplest form of proving that electricity was spent on a certain amount of computational security. Its blockchain database is about as decentralized as it can be across the world and is scaled in a way so that it can remain that way. There will always be newfound ideas that come about with other crypto-currencies. At the end of the day, if they're economically worthwhile projects that will end up having lots of money flowing into them, they'll be better served by being backed by bitcoin's secure network as opposed to a lesser one that is much more susceptible to attack. No one is going to want to store billions of dollars backed by a computer network that only takes millions of dollars to attack.

So with bitcoin it all comes down to confidence. If everyone has no confidence in the security of the network, its value is $0. If everyone has confidence in the security of the network, then its value has no upper bounds. What confidence does the bitcoin network provide?

1) Confidence in being able to receive bitcoin at any time of day. Anyone can generate a bitcoin address that can be used for receiving bitcoin. There are countless free and open source wallets that can be used today and features and UI are always improving.
2) Confidence in being able to hold bitcoin. Holding bitcoin has large improvements over gold, silver, real estate, or other commodities and assets. At the end of the day, the private keys to your bitcoin are just data and there are countless ways you can store that data securely, both physically and virtually. Bitcoin's fixed 21 million supply cap provides confidence that what you are holding won't ever be diluted.
3) Confidence in being able to send bitcoin. A global decentralized peer-to-peer network allows anyone to send value to anyone in the world without interference from any third-party or government power.

There are many other things, but at its basic level, these 3 things are what bitcoin's security provides confidence in. So long as people have confidence in and value these 3 things, the value of bitcoin will continue to grow.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2021, 06:52:53 AM »
Bitcoin is not currency, if it succeeds it will be the new Gold
Ethereum will be used as currency if it succeeds because its programable

Both have stupid names though

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2021, 08:19:16 AM »
Bitcoin is not currency, if it succeeds it will be the new Gold
Ethereum will be used as currency if it succeeds because its programable

Both have stupid names though

Everyone has been saying Bitcoin is more akin to gold than to the USD since long before the last bull run.  Saying that is not a slight.

Ethereum won't be used as a currency either.  It is actually less like the USD than Bitcoin.  Ethereum is more akin to an asset with hyper-utility. 

If you are only looking for a digital currency then you will have to look elsewhere.  Perhaps something like Litecoin.

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2021, 08:32:51 AM »
Bitcoin is not currency, if it succeeds it will be the new Gold
Ethereum will be used as currency if it succeeds because its programable

Both have stupid names though

Everyone has been saying Bitcoin is more akin to gold than to the USD since long before the last bull run.  Saying that is not a slight.

Ethereum won't be used as a currency either.  It is actually less like the USD than Bitcoin.  Ethereum is more akin to an asset with hyper-utility. 

If you are only looking for a digital currency then you will have to look elsewhere.  Perhaps something like Litecoin.
C’mon man! Have we al forgotten about dogecoin already ? I thought that one had potential. A real underdog story, if you will.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #160 on: January 10, 2021, 09:41:33 AM »
Doesn't a bitcoin transaction have a stupid high energy cost?  If bitcoin were used today to purchase gas/groceries, the power grid would go down lol.

Dgmp

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #161 on: January 10, 2021, 09:55:13 AM »
Kindly recommend you inform yourself much better then the questions in this thread.

Some of us agree with enough of of the broad thesis to continue to allocate some net worth to bitcoin as a hedge, and some as a speculation.

Regardless of what you do, you should be a lot more informed then the questions posted earlier in this thread.  These two podcasts are excellent and I recommend you listen.

The thesis that drives some companies to put some reserves in bitcoin and what that means for the rest of us:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-study-billionaires-the-investors-podcast-network/id928933489?i=1000503270615

The next layer of tech on top of bitcoin to facilitate payments today, the market forces against this, and the thesis on immediate use cases where this adds value and may win out:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/we-study-billionaires-the-investors-podcast-network/id928933489?i=1000504476029

One way or another central bank digital currencies are coming, and with that Alone you should spend some time on these topics.

Of course bitcoin  is fraught with risk and not for everyone, but IMO its good to have an informed point of view and make your own decisions.


onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #162 on: January 10, 2021, 10:54:43 AM »
Doesn't a bitcoin transaction have a stupid high energy cost?  If bitcoin were used today to purchase gas/groceries, the power grid would go down lol.

No, that's not how it works.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #163 on: January 10, 2021, 06:14:45 PM »
Doesn't a bitcoin transaction have a stupid high energy cost?  If bitcoin were used today to purchase gas/groceries, the power grid would go down lol.

No, that's not how it works.

Really?

"The average energy consumption for one single Bitcoin transaction in 2020 was 741 kilowatt-hours. This was significantly more compared to the cumulative 100,000 VISA transactions with only an energy consumption of 149 kilowatt-hours. Bitcoin is more energy intensive per single transaction than 100,000 VISA transactions."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/



onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #164 on: January 10, 2021, 06:58:42 PM »
Doesn't a bitcoin transaction have a stupid high energy cost?  If bitcoin were used today to purchase gas/groceries, the power grid would go down lol.

No, that's not how it works.

Really?

"The average energy consumption for one single Bitcoin transaction in 2020 was 741 kilowatt-hours. This was significantly more compared to the cumulative 100,000 VISA transactions with only an energy consumption of 149 kilowatt-hours. Bitcoin is more energy intensive per single transaction than 100,000 VISA transactions."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

Yes, because a credit card transaction and Bitcoin's cryptocurrency ecosystem are objectively not comparable.  One is entirely dependent upon an entire banking system (that consumes exponentially more energy than itself) and the other is its own self-sufficient banking system.  If you compare all the energy that a VISA transaction actually depends upon to Bitcoin's ecosystem then you would find Bitcoin is actually more energy efficient. See this article:  https://hackernoon.com/the-bitcoin-vs-visa-electricity-consumption-fallacy-8cf194987a50

Additionally, another factor you are not accounting for is that a significant portion of the energy used to mine Bitcoin is actually green that would have been wasted.  Many of the largest Bitcoin mining farms are in areas that receive cheap, green hydroelectric power.

Finally, if your only objection to Bitcoin is its energy consumption then you should know that you are not alone in your concerns and, fortunately, there are alternatives to Bitcoin that use exponentially less energy because they do not rely on a Proof-of-Work ("POW") system to secure their network.  Proof-of-Stake ("POS") coins have been since almost as long as Bitcoin and they are very popular.  Even some coins that are currently POW are in the process of becoming POS, like the number 2 largest cryptocurrency: Ethereum.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 07:00:27 PM by OneCoolCat »

scottish

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2021, 07:32:02 PM »
How about the fact that the entire Bitcoin network can only handle around 5 transactions per second.   Anyone think that's a concern?

I do agree that Merkle trees were a good invention.   That's why Linus Torvalds built them into git back in 2005.     

Personally, I think the whole proof of work thing sucks due to its ridiculous energy consumption demands as the hash space fills up.

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2021, 08:18:41 PM »
Doesn't a bitcoin transaction have a stupid high energy cost?  If bitcoin were used today to purchase gas/groceries, the power grid would go down lol.

No, that's not how it works.

Really?

"The average energy consumption for one single Bitcoin transaction in 2020 was 741 kilowatt-hours. This was significantly more compared to the cumulative 100,000 VISA transactions with only an energy consumption of 149 kilowatt-hours. Bitcoin is more energy intensive per single transaction than 100,000 VISA transactions."

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/


The energy used depends more on the current BTC price than the transaction volume. The mining aspect acts as a sort of lottery system. Each miner has a chance of computing the right hash value and being rewarded with a few BTC attached to the next block. This chance is inversely proportional to the number of other miners. As the price of BTC increases, the expected value of the gain from mining also increases, which in turn brings in more miners and brings the expected value back down again. The limiting factors are the price of electricity and the price of hardware. If you have ways of getting cheap electricity or cheap circuit boards, you have an advantage in the mining game. The protocol could handle the same transaction volume with many fewer miners wasting electricity, but the incentive structure built into the network ensures that electricity usage will increase as the price does.

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2021, 08:18:49 PM »
How about the fact that the entire Bitcoin network can only handle around 5 transactions per second.   Anyone think that's a concern?

I do agree that Merkle trees were a good invention.   That's why Linus Torvalds built them into git back in 2005.     

Personally, I think the whole proof of work thing sucks due to its ridiculous energy consumption demands as the hash space fills up.

No concerns about the Bitcoin transactions speed.  VISA can process 45,000 transactions per second and Bitcoin's lightning network, already available if you want to use it, allows billions of transactions to happen per second/instantaneously.  The lightning network is also extraordinarily cheap to use.  It is cost efficient to send pennies to people on the lightning network (cheaper than VISA).  It's not yet widely used but it is available if you want to use it.  Eventually, nearly all transactions will happen on the lightning network I think. 

Telecaster

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2021, 08:31:39 PM »

Yes, because a credit card transaction and Bitcoin's cryptocurrency ecosystem are objectively not comparable.  One is entirely dependent upon an entire banking system (that consumes exponentially more energy than itself) and the other is its own self-sufficient banking system.  If you compare all the energy that a VISA transaction actually depends upon to Bitcoin's ecosystem then you would find Bitcoin is actually more energy efficient. See this article:  https://hackernoon.com/the-bitcoin-vs-visa-electricity-consumption-fallacy-8cf194987a50

Bitcoin is more energy efficient....unless you divide by the number of transactions.   Then even by the author's very questionable assumptions, Bitcoin is several orders of magnitude less energy efficient.   

And it might be worth noting that bank branches themselves don't process transactions.  That's done elsewhere, so he's double counting.  Bank branches mostly do consumer banking like mortgages and car loans. 

Note in many places in the world transactions are processed entirely bypassing the traditional banking system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa

That's supposed to be Bitcoin's big advantage right?   But people are using other services to do the same thing.  In the case of M-Pesa specifically, users gets lots of banking services that Bitcoin can't provide. 

Quote
Additionally, another factor you are not accounting for is that a significant portion of the energy used to mine Bitcoin is actually green that would have been wasted. 

Who told you that?  Clearly someone who doesn't understand the power grid. 

Electricity prices, while generally tightly regulated, are still ultimately set by supply and demand.  Bitcoin miners using green energy have stressed the power grid and caused higher prices for consumers.  Read on:

The PUDs largely have done away with cheap power for miners. In Grant County, for example, power costs for “blockchain” miners will automatically increase up to twofold whenever miners are using or have requested to use 5% or more of the district’s power.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/sunday-buzz-soaring-bitcoin-prices-put-central-washington-electrical-utilities-on-alert/

A bit of explanation is in order.  Despite what whoever told you that the green power would have been wasted, in the Columbia Basin at least, the excess power beyond what was needed by local customers was sold at at premium rates in other states.   Those premium rates kept power cheap for the local customers.   When Bitcoin mining took off in a big way in the Columbia Basin,  utilities ran out of power to sell elsewhere, and at times had to buy expensive power off the grid.  This raised everyone's utility rates, including stable, job producing industries like aluminum and data centers who require cheap power.    The solution was that all the utility districts decided to put the Bitcoin miners at the front of the line for the rate increases.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2021, 09:06:53 PM »

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2021, 09:33:42 PM »


I'm glad you bought the dip.  Congrats.  We only need to drop another 30% to be where we were 2-weeks ago when you made this thread.  I would love to see it - really would.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 09:35:29 PM by OneCoolCat »

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2021, 10:03:08 PM »

And it might be worth noting that bank branches themselves don't process transactions.  That's done elsewhere, so he's double counting.  Bank branches mostly do consumer banking like mortgages and car loans. 

Note in many places in the world transactions are processed entirely bypassing the traditional banking system:

He isn't double counting.  VISA doesn't operate in a vacuum and neither do your transactions.  Even if your local bank branch doesn't process the VISA payment they play an essential role in the transaction (credit reporting, credit applications, payments, ect).  Bitcoin is its own ecosystem where it satisfies/replaces the entire role of the bank and VISA in a transaction.  It isn't debatable.



Quote
Quote
Additionally, another factor you are not accounting for is that a significant portion of the energy used to mine Bitcoin is actually green that would have been wasted.
 

Who told you that?  Clearly someone who doesn't understand the power grid. 

Electricity prices, while generally tightly regulated, are still ultimately set by supply and demand.  Bitcoin miners using green energy have stressed the power grid and caused higher prices for consumers.  Read on:

The PUDs largely have done away with cheap power for miners. In Grant County, for example, power costs for “blockchain” miners will automatically increase up to twofold whenever miners are using or have requested to use 5% or more of the district’s power.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/sunday-buzz-soaring-bitcoin-prices-put-central-washington-electrical-utilities-on-alert/

A bit of explanation is in order.  Despite what whoever told you that the green power would have been wasted, in the Columbia Basin at least, the excess power beyond what was needed by local customers was sold at at premium rates in other states.   Those premium rates kept power cheap for the local customers.   When Bitcoin mining took off in a big way in the Columbia Basin,  utilities ran out of power to sell elsewhere, and at times had to buy expensive power off the grid.  This raised everyone's utility rates, including stable, job producing industries like aluminum and data centers who require cheap power.    The solution was that all the utility districts decided to put the Bitcoin miners at the front of the line for the rate increases.

This article disagrees with you:  https://www.coindesk.com/the-last-word-on-bitcoins-energy-consumption

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #172 on: January 11, 2021, 04:07:59 AM »

And it might be worth noting that bank branches themselves don't process transactions.  That's done elsewhere, so he's double counting.  Bank branches mostly do consumer banking like mortgages and car loans. 

Note in many places in the world transactions are processed entirely bypassing the traditional banking system:

He isn't double counting.  VISA doesn't operate in a vacuum and neither do your transactions.  Even if your local bank branch doesn't process the VISA payment they play an essential role in the transaction (credit reporting, credit applications, payments, ect).  Bitcoin is its own ecosystem where it satisfies/replaces the entire role of the bank and VISA in a transaction.  It isn't debatable.



Quote
Quote
Additionally, another factor you are not accounting for is that a significant portion of the energy used to mine Bitcoin is actually green that would have been wasted.
 

Who told you that?  Clearly someone who doesn't understand the power grid. 

Electricity prices, while generally tightly regulated, are still ultimately set by supply and demand.  Bitcoin miners using green energy have stressed the power grid and caused higher prices for consumers.  Read on:

The PUDs largely have done away with cheap power for miners. In Grant County, for example, power costs for “blockchain” miners will automatically increase up to twofold whenever miners are using or have requested to use 5% or more of the district’s power.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/sunday-buzz-soaring-bitcoin-prices-put-central-washington-electrical-utilities-on-alert/

A bit of explanation is in order.  Despite what whoever told you that the green power would have been wasted, in the Columbia Basin at least, the excess power beyond what was needed by local customers was sold at at premium rates in other states.   Those premium rates kept power cheap for the local customers.   When Bitcoin mining took off in a big way in the Columbia Basin,  utilities ran out of power to sell elsewhere, and at times had to buy expensive power off the grid.  This raised everyone's utility rates, including stable, job producing industries like aluminum and data centers who require cheap power.    The solution was that all the utility districts decided to put the Bitcoin miners at the front of the line for the rate increases.

This article disagrees with you:  https://www.coindesk.com/the-last-word-on-bitcoins-energy-consumption

Cool unbiased source

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #173 on: January 11, 2021, 04:17:26 AM »


I'm glad you bought the dip.  Congrats.  We only need to drop another 30% to be where we were 2-weeks ago when you made this thread.  I would love to see it - really would.
Ok :)

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #174 on: January 11, 2021, 08:22:54 AM »
Currently at 32 K something
Too risky for me
Everyone has their risk tolerance.  It seems like all driven by speculation and mob mentality which is not how I invest so not for me

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #175 on: January 11, 2021, 08:39:19 AM »
Currently at 32 K something
Too risky for me
Everyone has their risk tolerance.  It seems like all driven by speculation and mob mentality which is not how I invest so not for me

I can totally respect that it is too risky for you.  However, it is noteworthy that Bitcoin was in the $25k range when you made this thread and a correction was thus not only expected but welcomed. 

Bitcoin is too risky for me as well.  That’s why I never put in more than 3% of my disposable income into it in any year.  My cost basis is under $6k.  No one is advocating to go all in on it.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #176 on: January 11, 2021, 08:49:29 AM »
Currently at 32 K something
Too risky for me
Everyone has their risk tolerance.  It seems like all driven by speculation and mob mentality which is not how I invest so not for me

I can totally respect that it is too risky for you.  However, it is noteworthy that Bitcoin was in the $25k range when you made this thread and a correction was thus not only expected but welcomed. 

Bitcoin is too risky for me as well.  That’s why I never put in more than 3% of my disposable income into it in any year.  My cost basis is under $6k.  No one is advocating to go all in on it.

Would you consider selling your bitcoin before the ETF's are formed ?
It will drive the price down
To me bitcoin is trading and not investing 

billy

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #177 on: January 11, 2021, 08:52:16 AM »
I'm looking at cryptocurrency interest accounts where you put your money into a stable coin and receive interest in return with no lock up period. Celsius, Nexo, Blockfi, and Crypto.com interest accounts look interesting. Nexo shows that they insure custodial assets, so with an all stable coin holding example there's no risk in this account?

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2021, 08:57:50 AM »
I'm looking at cryptocurrency interest accounts where you put your money into a stable coin and receive interest in return with no lock up period. Celsius, Nexo, Blockfi, and Crypto.com interest accounts look interesting. Nexo shows that they insure custodial assets, so with an all stable coin holding example there's no risk in this account?
I would stay away from those

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #179 on: January 11, 2021, 09:12:44 AM »
I'm looking at cryptocurrency interest accounts where you put your money into a stable coin and receive interest in return with no lock up period. Celsius, Nexo, Blockfi, and Crypto.com interest accounts look interesting. Nexo shows that they insure custodial assets, so with an all stable coin holding example there's no risk in this account?

I don’t know enough of those but I subscribe to the “not your keys not your coins” ideology so I wouldn’t touch.  I also would rather have cash (ew) than a stable coin but that’s because I am suspicious of stable coins. Like do they REALLY have billions of dollars in some vault?  That is needlessly risky to me.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #180 on: January 11, 2021, 09:24:52 AM »
Alright I've said my peace. 

Good luck !!

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #181 on: January 11, 2021, 09:30:29 AM »
Currently at 32 K something
Too risky for me
Everyone has their risk tolerance.  It seems like all driven by speculation and mob mentality which is not how I invest so not for me

I can totally respect that it is too risky for you.  However, it is noteworthy that Bitcoin was in the $25k range when you made this thread and a correction was thus not only expected but welcomed. 

Bitcoin is too risky for me as well.  That’s why I never put in more than 3% of my disposable income into it in any year.  My cost basis is under $6k.  No one is advocating to go all in on it.

Would you consider selling your bitcoin before the ETF's are formed ?
It will drive the price down
To me bitcoin is trading and not investing

I consider selling some Bitcoin all the time.  I never plan on selling all but I definitely encourage everyone to take profits.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #182 on: January 11, 2021, 07:43:52 PM »
How about the fact that the entire Bitcoin network can only handle around 5 transactions per second.   Anyone think that's a concern?

I do agree that Merkle trees were a good invention.   That's why Linus Torvalds built them into git back in 2005.     

Personally, I think the whole proof of work thing sucks due to its ridiculous energy consumption demands as the hash space fills up.

Yea its not a legitimate thing, price target may be around 0 dollars 

scottish

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2021, 03:33:47 PM »
How about the fact that the entire Bitcoin network can only handle around 5 transactions per second.   Anyone think that's a concern?

I do agree that Merkle trees were a good invention.   That's why Linus Torvalds built them into git back in 2005.     

Personally, I think the whole proof of work thing sucks due to its ridiculous energy consumption demands as the hash space fills up.

No concerns about the Bitcoin transactions speed.  VISA can process 45,000 transactions per second and Bitcoin's lightning network, already available if you want to use it, allows billions of transactions to happen per second/instantaneously.  The lightning network is also extraordinarily cheap to use.  It is cost efficient to send pennies to people on the lightning network (cheaper than VISA).  It's not yet widely used but it is available if you want to use it.  Eventually, nearly all transactions will happen on the lightning network I think.

Yeah, I read up on Lightning.     Thanks for that, they have some interesting ideas.

The way it works is it creates a bunch of automated contracts between pairs of users.    Say you buy coffee from starbucks every day.  (not mustachian!).   You can set up a "payment channel" which is a peer to peer connection of sorts with starbucks and put some money in it, maybe $100 worth of BTC.    Every time you go to starbucks, they debit your payment channel.

The novel part of lighting comes when you want to make a small payment to a vendor to whom you don't have a payment channel.   The network will try to find someone who does have a payment channel with the vendor.   Then you pay someone, and they pay starbucks.    This works recursively, so you can have a fairly long payment chain.

I didn't study it in detail from there, but it sounds like they're trying to borrow from routing in ad hoc networking to find connections to the vendor that you're trying to pay.

These micropayments are all aggregated and eventually pushed back to the real block chain.

Good marks to the lightning team for doing something about scalability!    But...

The 3 big problems with Bitcoin as it is today are:
1.  If you lose your private keys, you're screwed.
2.  If your private keys are compromised, you're screwed.
3.  The bitcoin network itself doesn't scale.

Lightning tries to improve #3.    But it exposes a much larger attack surface by doing it, making #2 worse.

And...   there's no guarantee the lightning network will actually scale globally.    The risk areas are
1.  Ad hoc routing just doesn't work very well. 
2.  The network performance will depend heavily on a bunch of stochastic behaviour on the part of its users.

This will be an interesting experiment, but it's not a clear solution to the tribulations of BitCoin.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2021, 07:38:44 PM »
Yeah, I read up on Lightning.     Thanks for that, they have some interesting ideas.

The way it works is it creates a bunch of automated contracts between pairs of users.    Say you buy coffee from starbucks every day.  (not mustachian!).   You can set up a "payment channel" which is a peer to peer connection of sorts with starbucks and put some money in it, maybe $100 worth of BTC.    Every time you go to starbucks, they debit your payment channel.

The novel part of lighting comes when you want to make a small payment to a vendor to whom you don't have a payment channel.   The network will try to find someone who does have a payment channel with the vendor.   Then you pay someone, and they pay starbucks.    This works recursively, so you can have a fairly long payment chain.

I didn't study it in detail from there, but it sounds like they're trying to borrow from routing in ad hoc networking to find connections to the vendor that you're trying to pay.

These micropayments are all aggregated and eventually pushed back to the real block chain.

Good marks to the lightning team for doing something about scalability!    But...

The 3 big problems with Bitcoin as it is today are:
1.  If you lose your private keys, you're screwed.
2.  If your private keys are compromised, you're screwed.
3.  The bitcoin network itself doesn't scale.

Lightning tries to improve #3.    But it exposes a much larger attack surface by doing it, making #2 worse.

And...   there's no guarantee the lightning network will actually scale globally.    The risk areas are
1.  Ad hoc routing just doesn't work very well. 
2.  The network performance will depend heavily on a bunch of stochastic behaviour on the part of its users.

This will be an interesting experiment, but it's not a clear solution to the tribulations of BitCoin.

Just a couple of notes on the lightning network. This comes from experience as I have been running a lightning node for 2 years now.

Lightning network is already scaling the bitcoin network. I am not sure what you mean by: "ad hoc routing just doesn't work very well". I can honestly say that after using the Lightning Network for 2 years and using it to do most of my online retail purchasing, I've only had a couple transactions fail due to routing after the thousands and thousands that I've sent. Since there are inherent privacy gains when transacting on the lightning network due to its onion routing properties, there is no true measure of how many transactions are taking place on the network. However, just with my node alone, I've notice a massive uptick in the number of transactions that are being routing through it each month by other users. For the first year and a half, I saw at most a handful of transactions routed each month. Now, consistently over the last 6 months or so I've been seeing 200+ transactions being routing through it. The size of these transactions have also been consistently getting larger with many transactions in the $200-$500 range. Every transaction that takes place on the lightning network is a transaction that doesn't need to take up block space on-chain.

One of the biggest mistakes in critiquing bitcoin is people thinking that people will be paying for coffee with on-chain bitcoin transactions. This is not the evolved design intention of bitcoin. It is intentionally designed not to scale by the number of transactions so that instead the network can scale outward and remain as decentralized as possible. Bitcoin is a settlement layer much like the infrastructure in traditional banking. The on-chain settlement layer is to be used as a settlement layer for aggregated transactions on secondary and tertiary layers in the financial system. Similar to how a central banking and federal reserves settle balances between financial institutions that are closer to the citizens that are transacting. Banking customers will transact with the bank and then the bank will settle those the net balance of those transactions with a clearing house, fedwire, reserve bank or other financial institution. This is a decent article that explains what this layered financial system will look like on the bitcoin network which will allow it to scale. https://medium.com/galoymoney/lightning-as-a-retail-payment-system-part-1-7463c46342ef

There will be many layers to the bitcoin network with the bitcoin blockchain acting as the secure final settlement layer to it all. For example, the Liquid Network is a side-chain that allows for instant and scalable transactions to take place between exchanges that allows instant settlement between traders and exchanges while still being backed by the same bitcoin blockchain security.

Furthermore, there will likely be interoperability between many of these layers using what is called atomic or submarine swaps. This will allow value that is stored on one layer/network to be instantly exchange for value that is on another layer/network. We are already seeing many of these services crop up in unique and interesting ways. For example, a new bitcoin wallet called Muun allows the user to seamlessly send and receive both bitcoin on-chain and bitcoin on Lightning network with just one balance using submarine swaps all while staying completely non-custodial. Therefore the user doesn't need worry about managing lightning channels or balances. They can send bitcoin to a lightning network invoice and bitcoin they have in their Muun wallet will go through a trustless submarine swap service that will pay the lightning invoice.

Technology in bitcoin is ever changing and there are constant improvements in both scalability solutions and user interface. One of the last things I am concerned about with bitcoin is that there won't ever be an improvement in scaling or user interface improvements that will carry the technology into the future.

This brings me to another point about usability and security. There was a recently publish NYTs article (not going to bother linking to it) the other day that focused on the failures of people storing their bitcoin in the earlier days when its value was practically worthless (so they didn't bother with even basic security) and when backup technologies were nascent. To call such failures a failure of bitcoin itself ignores the improvements made in the technology since the early days as well as the ingenuity of humans to problem solve in the future. Yes, bitcoin requires a lot of personal responsibility when it comes to security if you choose to minimize trust on third-parties (which you should). That means it is important to educate one's self on the technology that you're working with before ever taking on large sums of money. But, there are actually a lot of technologies that are very unique to bitcoin in the financial world that could open up new pathways for improved security benefits. Things like multi-sig and timelock contracts can be used to help secure funds using third-party services without giving up full ownership of your keys. Yes, backing up your keys or seed words requires a lot of personal responsibility, but there are a lot of options out there these days to help with this such as hardware wallets, encrypted backups, cold storage hardware, and using multiple backup solutions to ensure fault tolerance and minimize user error.

As far as proof-of-work and its energy use, I don't think it is appropriate to villanize energy use that isn't inherently clean or dirty one way or the other. I feel that by pointing blame and energy usage in industries that aren't inherently dirty or clean takes blame off of the industries that need to be much more pressured to clean up and reduce their emissions like the fossil fuel industry. In fact, that is what the fossil fuel industry specifically wants people to do; put blame on other industries for their energy use because it takes the spotlight off of them. We need to focus our efforts on cleaning up our energy grid by reducing our fossil fuel dependence. By virtue of a clean energy grid means that bitcoin also becomes a clean technology (emissions-wise). Yes, we also need to reduce our energy consumption as a whole (especially with urgency), but bitcoin as an industry can actually help accomplish that goal for energy industry in several ways.

For one, the energy market inherently lacks arbitrage. We don't have an economical way of transporting energy from one market that carries an abundance to another market with unsatisfied demand. Furthermore, energy solutions that are put in place to provide energy to a market are often scaled based on future needs as opposed to today's demand. Bitcoin can be used as a means to economically transfer the value of that energy that is produced and allow that value to be brought to market in the global economy. This allows for renewable energy to be bootstrapped with immediate economic return. There are also now solutions that can be used to help reduce inefficiencies in the energy market such as gas vent flaring which emits larges amounts of greenhouse gases. There is a company that deploys bitcoin miners at these vents and then allows those vents to produce energy that can then be brought to market in the form of bitcoin as opposed to being wastefully vented. Bitcoin as a form of energy market arbitrage is an extremely valuable thing that I feel is under-recognized. The idea that bitcoin will someday consume all the energy in the world is a fallacy and grossly ignores all the countless ways humans waste energy in this world that actually does take place in markets with demand that produce no value to human life.

I hope some find this interesting. Bitcoin is far from being perfect and there are certainly a lot of problems that still need to be solved (like the risk of DoS attacks on Lightning nodes). But I don't think it is appropriate to make a claim that bitcoin is a failure (speaking generally here) because of the problems it faces today. I have no doubt that there will continue to be ingenious solutions as the technology matures that will both provide greater security for those that use it while also scaling to allow more people to take part.

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #185 on: January 13, 2021, 08:11:48 PM »
How about the fact that the entire Bitcoin network can only handle around 5 transactions per second.   Anyone think that's a concern?

I do agree that Merkle trees were a good invention.   That's why Linus Torvalds built them into git back in 2005.     

Personally, I think the whole proof of work thing sucks due to its ridiculous energy consumption demands as the hash space fills up.

No concerns about the Bitcoin transactions speed.  VISA can process 45,000 transactions per second and Bitcoin's lightning network, already available if you want to use it, allows billions of transactions to happen per second/instantaneously.  The lightning network is also extraordinarily cheap to use.  It is cost efficient to send pennies to people on the lightning network (cheaper than VISA).  It's not yet widely used but it is available if you want to use it.  Eventually, nearly all transactions will happen on the lightning network I think.

Yeah, I read up on Lightning.     Thanks for that, they have some interesting ideas.

The way it works is it creates a bunch of automated contracts between pairs of users.    Say you buy coffee from starbucks every day.  (not mustachian!).   You can set up a "payment channel" which is a peer to peer connection of sorts with starbucks and put some money in it, maybe $100 worth of BTC.    Every time you go to starbucks, they debit your payment channel.

The novel part of lighting comes when you want to make a small payment to a vendor to whom you don't have a payment channel.   The network will try to find someone who does have a payment channel with the vendor.   Then you pay someone, and they pay starbucks.    This works recursively, so you can have a fairly long payment chain.

I didn't study it in detail from there, but it sounds like they're trying to borrow from routing in ad hoc networking to find connections to the vendor that you're trying to pay.

These micropayments are all aggregated and eventually pushed back to the real block chain.

Good marks to the lightning team for doing something about scalability!    But...

The 3 big problems with Bitcoin as it is today are:
1.  If you lose your private keys, you're screwed.
2.  If your private keys are compromised, you're screwed.
3.  The bitcoin network itself doesn't scale.

Lightning tries to improve #3.    But it exposes a much larger attack surface by doing it, making #2 worse.

And...   there's no guarantee the lightning network will actually scale globally.    The risk areas are
1.  Ad hoc routing just doesn't work very well. 
2.  The network performance will depend heavily on a bunch of stochastic behaviour on the part of its users.

This will be an interesting experiment, but it's not a clear solution to the tribulations of BitCoin.

Regarding the "three big problems"
1. This is true.  There are steps you can take to mitigate the chances of this happening.  Tips for securely storing private keys/seeds are all over the Internet so I won't get into it here.
2. This is true.  Like the above though, there are things you can do to completely prevent anyone from getting your keys.  The easiest is to buy a hardware wallet ($60), store your private keys offline, and NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES type your seed phrase on any keyboard.  Fairly simple but unfortunately it is not uncommon for people to fall for phishing tricks.
3. Lightning network should fix this.  In the year its been running there hasn't been any setbacks with it as far as I can tell.  People that use it seem to be having no issues. 

I don't understand how using the Lightning Network will make it more likely that your keys will get compromised.  Can you fill me in on that?

forgerator

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #186 on: January 14, 2021, 11:45:45 AM »
And back to $40k we are ...

HPstache

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #187 on: January 14, 2021, 12:27:06 PM »

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #188 on: January 14, 2021, 01:57:00 PM »
Quoting for irony.

Haha. What do you expect from a guy with such nuanced debate arguments such as these...

Bro Bro can I borrow 20 satoshis ???   My Tesla model 27 is in the shop with a busted flux capacitor

Yea its not a legitimate thing, price target may be around 0 dollars 

I would stay away from those

Would you consider selling your bitcoin before the ETF's are formed ?
It will drive the price down
To me bitcoin is trading and not investing 

Can I go to the grocery store and hand the cashier some bitcoins to pay for my food ?
How about at the gas station
You use money to buy goods and services. 
Bitcoin is funny money and will disappear
It's not a wise long term investment 
Cash out now

I'd rather buy frozen concentrated orange juice futures than bitcoin

I'm gonna bring this thread back up when it crashes to oblivion

Sure if you want to embarrass yourself

End times prophecy

Bitcoin will not be allowed to succeed
Satoshis ???  Come on why not just buy a bag of magic beans

Syonyk

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #189 on: January 14, 2021, 05:28:51 PM »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #190 on: January 14, 2021, 07:21:51 PM »
Quoting for irony.

Haha. What do you expect from a guy with such nuanced debate arguments such as these...

I'd rather buy frozen concentrated orange juice futures than bitcoin
[/quote]
In all fairness, orange juice went from 1.19 to 1.24 since 12/28. The January futures contract would have printed dollars with massive leverage. OJ has been on a tear lately and maybe @Pomegranate12 knows a thing or two about it, being a pomegranate and all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52030133

Thanks folks, I’ll be here all week.


onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #192 on: January 15, 2021, 07:14:56 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/12/kevin-oleary-on-why-he-wont-invest-in-bitcoin-btc.html

Who cares what Kevin O'Leary says?  He is all over the place when it comes to Bitcoin.  He is sometimes a Bitcoin bull and other times a bear and we know he owns Bitcoin.  I think he just plays a Bitcoin bear on TV because there are old videos of him from 2013 where he made a good case for investing in Bitcoin.  He talked about putting 3% of his networth in Bitcoin back then!  He just wants to keep you poor.  Search it on Youtube.

Peter Schiff is another one to look out for.  He has always been a Bitcoin bear for his selfish business reasons (he owns a business that depends on interest in gold investments).  He is rightfully afraid that Bitcoin will replace gold as a primary store of value and has been calling for Bitcoin's demise for nearly a decade while its just continued to go higher and higher and higher, ect.

Dave Ramsey is another but isn't worth the time because he doesn't even try to understand anything other than his baby steps. 

BiggerFishToFI

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #193 on: January 15, 2021, 09:00:03 AM »
Just bought 8k of plain old index funds this morning... yawn.

Might I regret not "investing" in bitcoin in the future? Maybe.

Do I need to invest in bitcoin to become financially independent in just a few more years? Nope.

Maybe I'll buy a small amount in a few years, after I'm FI, only if nobody is talking about it.  'Be Fearful When Others Are Greedy and Greedy When Others Are Fearful' etc.

Seems like most of the bitcoin bears I run into have longer FI timelines and are just hoping to strike it rich.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #194 on: January 15, 2021, 09:47:31 AM »
And back to $40k we are ...

And back to 35 K we are

So china is mining most of the bitcoins.   

I can see no way countries are gonna allow this to take hold

They will release their own version of Crypto's 


Stimpy

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #195 on: January 15, 2021, 11:18:57 AM »
And back to $40k we are ...

And back to 35 K we are

So china is mining most of the bitcoins.   

I can see no way countries are gonna allow this to take hold

They will release their own version of Crypto's

China already has developed their own(Still in testing but developed non the less), and I suspect others won't be terribly far behind....

https://www.investopedia.com/understanding-chinas-digital-yuan-5090699

Syonyk

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #196 on: January 15, 2021, 12:43:27 PM »
And back to 35 K we are

If people here were day trading Bitcoin, I'm sure they'd be interested in the swings.  I don't get the impression anyone in this thread is doing that.

onecoolcat

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #197 on: January 15, 2021, 05:10:18 PM »
And back to $40k we are ...

And back to 35 K we are

So china is mining most of the bitcoins.   

I can see no way countries are gonna allow this to take hold

They will release their own version of Crypto's

"back to 35 K".  So the moral of the story is don't buy Bitcoin because you know its going to crash.

Pomegranate12

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #198 on: January 15, 2021, 05:36:38 PM »
And back to $40k we are ...

And back to 35 K we are

So china is mining most of the bitcoins.   

I can see no way countries are gonna allow this to take hold

They will release their own version of Crypto's

"back to 35 K".  So the moral of the story is don't buy Bitcoin because you know its going to crash.

Yup rocky road down to 400 bucks per coin

Syonyk

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #199 on: January 15, 2021, 05:55:16 PM »
Yup rocky road down to 400 bucks per coin

By when?

You can pick your timeline within the next few years, say... $50 on it?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!