Australian Investing Thread

[LonerMatt]

Just wanted to post to subscribe and say thanks for the great thread so far

It is hyper informative, isn't it?

I'm seriously considering just selling all I've got and then investing in that Vanguard diversified fund - it would simplify and re-balance (something I don't do, at all). Which would potentially be interesting, and maybe better. On the other hand, maybe it'd be a better learning habit to try and manage my own, even if it is a little messy.

[The Falcon]

Also @The Falcon, could you explain the basic difference between VAS and VHY? I've read the vanguard page but can't quite work out what the jargon and stats going to mean. Is it as simple as VHY paying out larger dividends? If so, does that mean less capital growth perhaps?

Im looking to invest in both most likely, and I guess I'm curious what made you choose VHY as the primary vehicle for your leveraged share investment.

VAS is the ASX300 weighted by market cap, VHY is holding the High Dividend yield index based on companies with the highest forecast payout ratio for next 12 months. Reason for this over VAS is a few, I already hold lots of the big LIC's in SMSF and their weights are quite similar to VAS, VHY has different weightings not market cap based so it provides additional diversification, but the main thing is to keep this investment positively geared or neutral....the higher yielding divis cover the holding (interest costs). It also allows me to pick up stuff like BRK-B or VTS which would be negatively geared by themselves.

as for yield vs. growth, theoretically perhaps, though I think that dividend imputation tilts things in the favour of higher divi paying businesses in Australia. Lets look at the underlying index funds over ten years ;

VAS (Vanguard Oz shares fund) Growth : Growth : 3.81% / Yield : 4.83%
VHY (Vanguard Oz shares high yield fund) Growth : 4.16% / Yield : 5.69%

[Primm]

So ultimately VHY should out-perform VAS. Is there any catch? I know that VAS has a lower management fee (0.15% vs 0.25%). I guess ultimately that's not much of a difference, is it?

I think it's an indicator of my mindset that I'm watching the funds in my stock purchase account build up (slowly!) and watching the market go down and thinking awesome, I get more for my money! The me from even a few months ago would have been looking at my current holdings and panicking. Not any more. :)

[The Falcon]

I cant say that I am sure that VHY will outperform VAS from a total return standpoint in the future, but it has in the last 10 years (well the underlying fund has). What it should do however is provide higher yield, which is more important for me in the short-medium term. To give you an idea on that particular investment portfolio, will look something like this ;

Target yield grossed up                       5.00+%
Cost of funds                                     5.00%

INVESTMENTS      (75% AU / 25% US UNHEDGED)

VANGUARD HIGH YIELD ETF / 50% WEIGHT / YIELD 7%                                   
ASX LARGE LIC’S BASED ON VALUE / 25% WEIGHT / YIELD 5%                                     
VANGUARD VTS US  / 15% WEIGHT / YIELD 2%                                                 
BRK-B / 10% WEIGHT / YIELD 0%.                                                             

Portfolio grossed up yield     5.05%

As you can see this provides a revenue neutral investment with a combination of long term growth and income. LICs will only be bought at discount to NTA, and only AFI/ARG/MLT/WHF. If none of these are available at discount, will invest in VAS.

Nobody knows what will happen in a year, ten or twenty years from now, there is no such thing as a risk free investment but I am pretty happy with above.

[Primm]

Cool, thank you. I am an absolute beginner at all this, but we have to start somewhere, right? Have been reading and researching as hard as I can to make up for lost time (I'm 45), and I appreciate any help I can get.

[bigchrisb]

LICs will only be bought at discount to NTA, and only AFI/ARG/MLT/WHF.

I think we have very similar investment philosophies.

I'm curious why you includes WHF in this list?  The LICs I use are AFI/ARG/MLT/BKI/CIN.  The first three are well known.  The latter two are moderate in size (in the 700M-1000M) category), and made my cut due to very low MER (both sub 0.2%), and at the time, a steep discount to NTA (CIN was at more than a 20% discount for quite a while, albeit almost at NTA now).   

What's the appeal of WHT for you?  Seems to be fairly high cost for a LIC (0.35%) and trading at NTA (1.6% discount). 

I'm struggling to see value in the LICs at the moment, with most at NTA or a premium.  Not selling them, but not really buying either.

[The Falcon]

You know your LIC's :)

Spot on, MER is slightly higher at 35bps, but WHF recently has been the only solid LIC trading at a good discount. Picked it up around -7% a couple of months ago. Its an all Industrials play, and adds a bit of diversification in the Portfolio. This LIC is about 30% held by the Gluskie family (Angus Gluskie is CEO) I like to align with family money rather than corporate money.

Other LIC's I currently hold are ARG/MLT/BKI. I also hold SOL and BKW, so holding off on any BKI top ups...too much Millner family exposure lol.

just on CIN, that's a very different LIC, Alan Rydges vehicle, huge overweight on Amalgamated Holdings, I would consider it at 15% discount or more but I think its crept in to 6% or so which is crappy.

Looked at the ASX NTA report today there is no value except maybe CTN.......if I had to DCA today would just buy VAS.

[bigchrisb]

Other LIC's I currently hold are ARG/MLT/BKI. I also hold SOL and BKW, so holding off on any BKI top ups...too much Millner family exposure lol.

just on CIN, that's a very different LIC, Alan Rydges vehicle, huge overweight on Amalgamated Holdings, I would consider it at 15% discount or more but I think its crept in to 6% or so which is crappy.

Agree on the Milner Family exposure - I hold SOL and BKW in there too, which in many ways are really LICs with a bit less transparency.

I'm fairly heavy in my allocation to CIN (approx $180k total), mostly bought at a discount rate that means I got the AHD exposure for free. Don't know that I would buy it at current discounts though.  It means I have a ~70k underlying holding in AHD, wich is a lot of cash to have in a single midcap!  That said, I've done very well from CIN to date, and can't bring myself to pay the CGT if I sold out.

A question I've long debated on LICs and not managed to get an answer from (either from the ATO, the ASX or the LICs themselves).  Do you know if the post tax NTA accounts for the value of the LIC capital gains credits or not?  i.e. is the CGT calculated at 30% or 15% in that stat?

[The Falcon]

BigChrisb, I don't know the answer to that but will be able to find out. Leave it with me. I know someone that is close to a couple of the Sydney LICs.

[limeandpepper]

The Falcon, you have been such an asset in this thread! I hope you don't mind if I ask another question... because I'm currently contemplating between just buying ETFs with my brokerage account, or going with Vanguard.

You mention that the Vanguard option makes for simple tax reporting - is it easier than ETFs? And how does the tax reporting work? Does it all just come in magically in E-tax using the pre-fill function?

[The Falcon]

Ok the thing about those vanguard unlisted funds, is that they are diversified portfolio in one product.
Ie each of them hold cash, bonds, unlisted property securities, australian shares, international shares etc.
So they will provide one annual tax statement and do the rebalancing for you. Personally I don't hold any of these
Funds but they are a great starting point IMHO. As you already have a brokerage account I'd be inclined to buy ETFs and construct your portfolio in the weight you want. You could do the same with ETFs and high interest online account cheaper for higher balances

As for the nuts and bolts of DIY tax returns, I'm afraid I can't assist there. Lonsec does my portfolio admin and my accountant
Gets the info from them.

[limeandpepper]

Thanks for that! :)  I will ponder further.

[marty998]

Limeandpepper no unfortunately, etax does not prepopulate distributions from managed funds.

One of the reasons for this is capital gains. Etax cannot work out what your CGT position is unless you tell it to based on the information you enter (purchase & sale dates, 50% concessional amounts etc).

You have to use the tax statement provided by you fund and enter it in. It's actually quite simple to be fair, you normally have to fill out several boxes - distributions from trusts (including franking credits), capital gains, and foreign source income and foreign tax credits if applicable. Etax does walk you through it.

[limeandpepper]

Thanks for the reassurance, marty. That doesn't sound too scary. :)

[TB_J]

Hi all, great banter here.

Question: Who else is in VTS? Noticing that the few of you who are have relatively small weightings as opposed to VAS.

Why is this? In my opinion VTS is much more diversified, doesn't have the fickle financials vs resources sector risk inherently associated with VAS. Not to mention anyone in an industry super fund who has a weighting to an 'Australian Shares' option would have similar to VAS exposure.

Perhaps it's because the VTS index is possibly quite overvalued at the moment or it's low divi yeild? Just curious as it seems like an excellent long term low maintenance vehicle.

[MsRichLife]

Anyone investing in precious metals?

Bullion or ETF?

[The Falcon]

Hi all, great banter here.

Question: Who else is in VTS? Noticing that the few of you who are have relatively small weightings as opposed to VAS.

Why is this? In my opinion VTS is much more diversified, doesn't have the fickle financials vs resources sector risk inherently associated with VAS. Not to mention anyone in an industry super fund who has a weighting to an 'Australian Shares' option would have similar to VAS exposure.

Perhaps it's because the VTS index is possibly quite overvalued at the moment or it's low divi yeild? Just curious as it seems like an excellent long term low maintenance vehicle.

Yield and currency risk. In a leveraged investment, yield is important if you want to be cash positive or neutral. VTS is unhedged, as I intend to live in Australia, I will be spending AUD. In super, franked dividends are a massive free kick in a 15% tax environment, so that is another reason for the tilt.

Long run I will probably looking for a 70/30 AU/US mix over all. I like VTS and I like BRK-B. You dead right about the diversification the US index....it also provides more Global exposure each year. I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but a matter of preference.

Anyone investing in precious metals?

Bullion or ETF?

I've got a gold bar that I bought for my daughter her first Christmas, the idea is she will get it on her 21st. I don't expect it to be worth much if anything more in real terms though!
Precious metals are a speculative tool, I don't have any interest but a bit of bullion is a cool thing :)

[MsRichLife]

I don't expect it to be worth much if anything more in real terms though!

The beauty of gold bullion is that its value in real terms is much the same as it was 5000 years ago. 1 ounce is worth roughly the price of a well made suit or something along those lines.

My biggest concern (clearly not shared by the majority of folks in MMM land) is that tertiary wealth (paper money, derivatives et al) has exponentially outgrown the primary and secondary wealth supposedly underlying it. At some point there is likely to be a reckoning and those holding the primary and secondary wealth when the music stops will be much better off that those holding useless bits of paper. Gold therefore is a hedge against a collapse of derivatives and other paper assets.

Anyone else willing to entertain such a view?

[The Falcon]

Yes, its a store of wealth, not an investment. To me, that's not really a thing of beauty. It doesn't produce any income and in order to realise its value you have to sell it. I'll take dividend paying investments any day. The best hedge against inflation is a stake in successful businesses. I've always liked Buffett's take on gold...will have to dig it up.

If you are an extreme bear, then gold is what you want. May as well dig a bunker then as well, and stack up on guns :)  The bears might be right....who knows. You pay your money and you take your chances.

[TB_J]

Yield and currency risk. In a leveraged investment, yield is important if you want to be cash positive or neutral. VTS is unhedged, as I intend to live in Australia, I will be spending AUD. In super, franked dividends are a massive free kick in a 15% tax environment, so that is another reason for the tilt.

Long run I will probably looking for a 70/30 AU/US mix over all. I like VTS and I like BRK-B. You dead right about the diversification the US index....it also provides more Global exposure each year. I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but a matter of preference.

Thanks Mr Bird. I appreciate your view. I would see the unhedged position of VTS as beneficial in the short to medium term... pending on how a few things play out. I think perhaps in an unleveraged portfolio that isn't dependent on yield to cover holding costs the diversification may be worth it. The VAS weighting to our small selection of large caps is risky business.

I don't expect it to be worth much if anything more in real terms though!

The beauty of gold bullion is that its value in real terms is much the same as it was 5000 years ago. 1 ounce is worth roughly the price of a well made suit or something along those lines.

My biggest concern (clearly not shared by the majority of folks in MMM land) is that tertiary wealth (paper money, derivatives et al) has exponentially outgrown the primary and secondary wealth supposedly underlying it. At some point there is likely to be a reckoning and those holding the primary and secondary wealth when the music stops will be much better off that those holding useless bits of paper. Gold therefore is a hedge against a collapse of derivatives and other paper assets.

Anyone else willing to entertain such a view?

It is a view shared by more than you would think. Read the comments section on this Australian property and economics blog for a shared perspective....

http://www.whocrashedtheeconomy.com/

[MsRichLife]

If you are an extreme bear, then gold is what you want. May as well dig a bunker then as well, and stack up on guns :)

Great...Probably need ammo too right? :) I was living in the US during the GFC. It left it's mark on me in more ways than one.

Not an extreme bear here. Maybe a bear cub. Just thinking a small percentage of my portfolio could go into gold. Still pondering.....

[The Falcon]

ha. yes, you'd need ammo to keep the hordes at bay.

I remember seeing a portfolio somewhere which was targeted as the ultimate set and forget, no stress, survive Armageddon portfolio ;

25% index funds
25% government bonds
25% cash
25% gold

[MsRichLife]

ha. yes, you'd need ammo to keep the hordes at bay.

I remember seeing a portfolio somewhere which was targeted as the ultimate set and forget, no stress, survive Armageddon portfolio ;

25% index funds
25% government bonds
25% cash
25% gold

'The Ultimate Portfolio': Harry Browne via Dan Denning perhaps? (attached)

The real Armageddon portfolio is:
25% Cash
25% Gold and Silver Bullion
10% Russian Vodka
15% Dark Rum
15% Tobacco Products
10% Tinned Food
5% Batteries and bottled water

[The Falcon]

That's the one :)

[LonerMatt]

ha. yes, you'd need ammo to keep the hordes at bay.

I remember seeing a portfolio somewhere which was targeted as the ultimate set and forget, no stress, survive Armageddon portfolio ;

25% index funds
25% government bonds
25% cash
25% gold

This is the Permanent Portfolio which is supposed to offer modest (4-7%) returns annually and preserve wealth without major highs or lows.

[deborah]

The real Armageddon portfolio is:
25% Cash
25% Gold and Silver Bullion
10% Russian Vodka
15% Dark Rum
15% Tobacco Products
10% Tinned Food
5% Batteries and bottled water

Why cash? Seeds and hardware (including solar panels)!

[AustralianMustachio]

@ TB_J - what do you mean by "the fickle financials vs resources sector risk inherently associated with VAS"?

[The Falcon]

He means the Australian index, weighted by market caps is very heavy on banks and miners....essentially the big 4 , BHP and RIO.

US Index however weighted by market cap is more diversified ; Tech, Energy, consumer staples, telecoms, banks.

[TB_J]

He means the Australian index, weighted by market caps is very heavy on banks and miners....essentially the big 4 , BHP and RIO.

US Index however weighted by market cap is more diversified ; Tech, Energy, consumer staples, telecoms, banks.

Yes AustralianMustachio, The Falcon has nailed it. The Aus 200 & 300 indexes are too heavy on the big 4 banks and large cap commodity miners due to forced weighting based on capitalization, which presents an obvious risk. The US total market index and S&P 500 are far more diversified across industries that aren't present or mature in Australia - think manufacturing, Silicon Valley tech etc. also worth remembering the global exposure gained from the US index as many of the index constituents are US based multinationals.

[The Falcon]

Yep, from memory across the S&P 500 something like 23% of income is now foreign sourced.

As an aside, those wanting different to market cap exposure on the ASX, there are now economic weight and "equal weight" ETFs like MVW and QOZ available.

[Gecko235]

Hey guys, loving the thread so far and will keep checking on how things are going.

Just thought I'd chip in where I'm atm.

26 yrs old.

I have a partner but she is terrible with money as she has learnt bad habits from her parents. She is getting better as she's saved up $800 which is very impressive on her behalf (she has come along way).

2 Properties worth $920k, roughly $260k equity. 1 is sub dividable and that's the retirement egg right there.
$76k in shares (to heavy in banks which I plan on changing in the future when the price come back up again)
3k in cash

Currently in the middle of refinancing to pull out some equity and buy up some more shares if I find something at a good price.

I'm fairly new to it and over paid for NAB bank shares a year ago. I have had chances to sell off a profit so I might do at the next chance as I think there are better options now that I've learnt a bit more

Also take a look at Collins food shares (CKF). I wish I had some more $ to snap them up they dropped in price today!

[This_Is_My_Username]

great thread:

I am at:

age 30
100k pretax salary
20% equity in PPOR =$80k
100k super
$40k shares: VAS, VHY, and IOZSWG
65% savings rate
Retire at 40.

[steveo]

I'll chip in:-

41 wife 38. 3 kids.
House - say 600k net worth with 130k debt
Super - 210k
Combined earnings - 170k pre-tax

Looking to retire at 50.

[TB_J]

A number of economists predicting the AUD to slide to 80c against the greenback by end of next year. VTS may prove to be a decent medium term proposition with somewhat of a hedge against a US market correction.

Just my musings for the day.

[AustralianMustachio]

Quick question regarding purchasing ETFs - if I'm buying a Vanguard ETF (VAS in my example) and I do so through an online brokerage account (got an NABtrade account with some free trades), how do I set up my dividend reinvestment plan for that ETF? Will Vanguard send me something after the purchase, perhaps?

[marty998]

Yes, probably. You get the option of cash dividend or reinvestment.

Else perhaps you could log into the share registry and update it online (not sure if it is computershare or link market services).

Remember to keep track of all the reinvestments for CGT purposes. Each reinvestment is a new "purchase" and you need to record the date, number of shares/units and cost for tax.

You will also need to keep track of tax deferred income, which will reduce the cost base of each unit.

TMI? Talk to your accountant about it.

[AustralianMustachio]

Thanks for the reply marty very much appreciated

[potm]

26 years old.
350k in direct shares with about 128k margin loan.

Investing is something I really enjoy and am constantly thinking and learning. To be able to value companies and make good investments I think you need a knowledge of accounting, finance, economics, human psychology, the business and markets that company operates in and a lot of luck. Otherwise achieving the average return through indexing and cost averaging is not a bad way to do things and requires no knowledge or effort. Just decide on your allocation and minimise the costs.

I invest in companies with reliable revenue, not high levels of debt, leader in their market with some good growth prospects and at a good price.
I mainly look at medium sized companies in the top 200-300 range by market cap, large enough to be reliable and liquid but small enough to go unnoticed by the majority of people and still have room to grow.
Hopefully with some growth, they can enter the top 200 and get rerated upwards as they come under the spotlight.

Just a comment on bonds, I don't think there's any need for them in Australia, especially at these low levels of interest rates. Leaving money in ubank is preferable.
If interest rates go up to like 10% then some long maturity bonds would be a good idea.

I also don't like hybrids. They are like the worse of both worlds of cash and shares. Unless you buy at a large discount there's no upside potential if the company does well but there is a downside potential if the company does poorly.

I think the prices for the popular bluechip stocks, banks, telstra and wow etc are getting to the high part of the cycle now. I hear lots of people wanting to start investing in shares which is always a sign that things are getting expensive.
That doesn't mean that the prices can't get much higher though. Who knows how long things will run for before we get cheap prices again and nobody wants to invest in shares. Even with the overall market high though, there are always individual opportunities out there.

[bigchrisb]

Anyone run the ruler over the Telstra buyback?  I've got some Telstra shares in my name that I'd like to sell, and re-purchase in my trust of SMSF's name.  I picked them up at about $3, so there is a fair capital gain on them.  I thought that the proposed buyback might be a good opportunity to do this.   However, running the numbers, on my tax  rate I'd be far better off just selling them on market.  Anyone else looked at the TLS buyback, or got it to stack up for them?

[dungoofed]

I'm finally getting back into it, with 1/6 in each of:

VAS.AX
IOO.AX
IME.AX
VGB.AX
PMGOLD-A
plus an HSBC term deposit.

Started off with the Permanent Portfolio and tweaked it into something I am more comfortable with.

[dungoofed]

Oh, and I had a question - anyone ever considered anything from the Realindex range? The fees always turned me off but I can see the benefits to the RAFI approach. I'd consider 100% 16885.AX a fair substitute for, say, 50% holdings in each of VAS.AX and VSO.AX.

[This_Is_My_Username]

Anyone run the ruler over the Telstra buyback?  I've got some Telstra shares in my name that I'd like to sell, and re-purchase in my trust of SMSF's name.  I picked them up at about $3, so there is a fair capital gain on them. 

Is this a potential wash sale ?

http://www.asx.com.au/education/investor-update-newsletter/201305-tax-loss-selling.htm

[bigchrisb]

Hmmm, it would seem that ruling suggests that an individual and a company/trust with the same economic exposure may indeed be a wash sale.  Scrap that idea then!

[superannuationfreak]

Oh, and I had a question - anyone ever considered anything from the Realindex range? The fees always turned me off but I can see the benefits to the RAFI approach. I'd consider 100% 16885.AX a fair substitute for, say, 50% holdings in each of VAS.AX and VSO.AX.

I've considered them.  For a RAFI ASX 200 product I'd be more inclined to use the ETF QOZ from Betashares with lower fees and lower likelihood of capital gains distribution.

I'd really like to invest in their Realindex (Wholesale) Australian small companies fund but my two concerns are the potential for turnover (generating capital gains) and the fees.  The fees bother me more for the potential for capital gains lock-in: if a cheaper comparable product becomes available it may still be worth sticking with an existing fund as otherwise the capital gains tax bill may hurt.  If I were putting more into super at the moment I'd probably use that for a portion of my Australian equity allocation (maybe 10% or 20% of my Australian equities) as in Super turnover is less of an issue due to lower tax rates, and capital gains lock-in is not a problem.

[superannuationfreak]

Is anyone here invested in IHD (iShares® S&P/ASX High Dividend Fund)?

I was leaning towards it as I like their methodology, including the caps it puts on individual holdings and sectors.

However it just had an enormous distribution of (mostly) capital gains in July, dropping its usually high franking level substantially.  Was there any explanation of this given to unit holders?  Was it just turnover or was there some corporate action (merger, etc.) which caused it?

[The Falcon]

A question I've long debated on LICs and not managed to get an answer from (either from the ATO, the ASX or the LICs themselves).  Do you know if the post tax NTA accounts for the value of the LIC capital gains credits or not?  i.e. is the CGT calculated at 30% or 15% in that stat?

Ok, here is an answer. LIC Post tax NTA is CG paid at company tax rate 30% but no LIC investor CG credit is applied.
The value of the investor CG credit will depend on investors individual tax situation, ie it is not company tax @ 30% / 2 , as LIC structure does not get 50% CGT discount but the individual shareholders get the flow through discount on the underlying holdings. Hope this makes sense.

[bigchrisb]

I think that's good news - in other words, in the hands of an individual shareholder, the difference between the pre and post tax NTA would be halved?

Thanks for coming back to me on this one.

[The Falcon]

Roughly yes for low tax bracket, but still a better outcome than you might assume for top tax bracket, given the limited portfolio turnover, there is a lot of discounted CG to be had so you would have to expect an actual of 25% effective on top bracket for CG component, so yes I would suggest that Post tax NTA figure is probably a pretty pessimistic number (as it should be) and that would be top bracket, and a pretty high turnover year for one of the traditional LICs to get there.

No worries at all mate :)

[dungoofed]

Oh, and I had a question - anyone ever considered anything from the Realindex range? The fees always turned me off but I can see the benefits to the RAFI approach. I'd consider 100% 16885.AX a fair substitute for, say, 50% holdings in each of VAS.AX and VSO.AX.

I've considered them.  For a RAFI ASX 200 product I'd be more inclined to use the ETF QOZ from Betashares with lower fees and lower likelihood of capital gains distribution.

I'd really like to invest in their Realindex (Wholesale) Australian small companies fund but my two concerns are the potential for turnover (generating capital gains) and the fees.  The fees bother me more for the potential for capital gains lock-in: if a cheaper comparable product becomes available it may still be worth sticking with an existing fund as otherwise the capital gains tax bill may hurt.  If I were putting more into super at the moment I'd probably use that for a portion of my Australian equity allocation (maybe 10% or 20% of my Australian equities) as in Super turnover is less of an issue due to lower tax rates, and capital gains lock-in is not a problem.

Thanks superannuationfreak for highlighting QOZ.

Unrelated question (and actually probably deserves its own thread), but what are your suggestions for a second hand car in Australia these days? I anticipate three trips a week of about 20-40 km each way, with the occasional 300km trip to Sydney. Otherwise it will be in the garage the whole time. Would be interested to know what you guys purchased, how much you paid, how it has worked out for you etc.

[The Hamster]

Is anyone here invested in IHD (iShares® S&P/ASX High Dividend Fund)?

I was leaning towards it as I like their methodology, including the caps it puts on individual holdings and sectors.

However it just had an enormous distribution of (mostly) capital gains in July, dropping its usually high franking level substantially.  Was there any explanation of this given to unit holders?  Was it just turnover or was there some corporate action (merger, etc.) which caused it?

I have been looking at this for my superfund as well so I will check it out further.

This might be a useful website for those of us who like to research shares - you do have to register though (free) http://www.australiandividends.com.au/

And finally, what P/E is considered "safe"  is it below 20?  And what's the difference between trailing and forward P/E?