Australian Investing Thread

[banksie_82]

If you're after more stable and predictable dividends, then I suggest looking into LICs.

They usually only pay twice a year, but they are consistent and are generally slightly higher yielding than the broader market.

[Jimmy9]

G'day, my apologies if this is the wrong thread to post my question but just after a bit of advice....

Just looking for opinions on where to park a bit of coin short term.
After recently selling our property and renting while we look for another to build on we're looking for somewhere to make a bit more than the whopping 2.55% we're currently getting.
We're looking to invest about a quarter of our funds for a one to two year time frame.
Currently thinking the vanguard wholesale growth fund or the ETF equivalent with possibly a fixed interest ETF aswell.
Could possibly do more than a quarter but it'd need to be pretty safe and liquid as that'd be the funds for when the right property pops up.
So basically after a 'what would you do...' if you had a fairly sizeable chunk of cash sitting in a HISA while actively looking for a property that may take a day or a year to find then have construction time on top.  Would you opt for the safety/liquidity of a HISA or the opportunity/risk of an investment?

Cheers 🙂

[misterhorsey]

Hey Lush

I'm actually in a similar boat in that I'm looking at trying to get income from VAS, VGS as well as a Wholesale High Growth Fund to put food on the table and keep keeping the lights on.

Except that I went semi-FIREd without actually figuring it all out properly!  Although it may be a prolonged sabbatical, with a return to some kind of work in the future.

I may do a case study of my situation when I get around to it. I probably need some advice from the ever helpful MMM hive mind to refine my strategy.

But one observation that I have noted since quitting work and I think worth sharing is that once you stop earning active income, you can become even more resourceful and imaginative in your frugality than you would have imagined - without necessarily impacting on your quality of life. I've discovered that it's far more enjoyable to live frugally, but have your own time and freedom to do whatever you want, than it is to work 9-5 and be able to buy whatever you want.

I think we all know this as we are all on this forum. But I mention it again because once you have the frugal habit down pat and you've forecast a reasonable amount of income to cover yourself, you may surprise yourself with how little of it you consume.  And those savings, in turn, continue to grow your stash.

It's possible that I'm looking at the numbers more than most FIREd, as my quitting was somewhat unexpected and there was a sense of uneasiness about the pay checks ceasing. I may also be frugal with a capital F compared to others (no car, no kids, share housing).

I finished up work in April 2017, and before I did some sums and forecast a certain amount of passive income to cover according to the 4% rule. Due to my own frugal habits and (unexpected) increasing market returns,  I'm currently living on around 54% of my theoretical passive income.  When I pulled the plug I actually thought I would be living on around 75% -85% of theoretical passive income. I may consume more with a bit of travel in 2018, and my spending may get closer to 4%, but I'm pleasantly surprised by how much buffer I have.  I certainly wasn't counting on it when I finished up with work.

Of course, if the market had sunk post Trump, I could well be exceeding my theoretical passive income. I was lucky I guess - which is actually the first time for me to be a beneficiary of overall market uplift.

So yes, keep working, saving. And maybe quit a little before you think you can actually afford to!!

Anyway, I meant to reply to post this link to the ASX 300 should you wish to do your own analysis each quarter.

https://us.spindices.com/indices/equity/sp-asx-300

although it seems that the Vanguard report is pretty accurate so perhaps let them do it.

[misterhorsey]

So basically after a 'what would you do...' if you had a fairly sizeable chunk of cash sitting in a HISA while actively looking for a property that may take a day or a year to find then have construction time on top.  Would you opt for the safety/liquidity of a HISA or the opportunity/risk of an investment?

For me the potential upside of investing the cash doesn't compensate for the potential decline in your investment as well as the uncertainty.

But I see you are only wanting to put 1/4 of your cash into investments. I guess that's a way of hedging your bets. 

In a worse case scenario, if your investment declined, you could get a mortgage for a larger amount and then pay it off once your investment recovers (assuming it does).

I'd model this on a spreadsheet to see how comfortable you would be with a worst case scenario as well as figure out whether the best case scenario is worth the risk and uncertainty.  Sometimes it's quite sobering to do the numbers. It fleshes out an idea and can make your mind up for you.

[Llewellyn2006]

G'day, my apologies if this is the wrong thread to post my question but just after a bit of advice....

Just looking for opinions on where to park a bit of coin short term.
After recently selling our property and renting while we look for another to build on we're looking for somewhere to make a bit more than the whopping 2.55% we're currently getting.
We're looking to invest about a quarter of our funds for a one to two year time frame.
Currently thinking the vanguard wholesale growth fund or the ETF equivalent with possibly a fixed interest ETF aswell.
Could possibly do more than a quarter but it'd need to be pretty safe and liquid as that'd be the funds for when the right property pops up.
So basically after a 'what would you do...' if you had a fairly sizeable chunk of cash sitting in a HISA while actively looking for a property that may take a day or a year to find then have construction time on top.  Would you opt for the safety/liquidity of a HISA or the opportunity/risk of an investment?

Cheers 🙂

With that sort of timeframe I'd just keep it in something like a RAMS account (currently paying 2.8% providing no withdrawals in the month and that you deposit at least $200 a month). You're covered by the govt guarantee up to $250k. The LIC's like Argo and AFIC have a slightly better yield but they only pay out twice a year so you might miss out if you only keep your money in there for the short term and you have the risk of a fall in the share price while you're in there.

[Jimmy9]

Cheers for the input guys...
I thought I was being overly cautious by only using a quarter of it in reasonably low risk investments. I was thinking I'd hate to look back in a year or two and just see a wasted opportunity but I guess there's no risk in playing it safe.

Hypothetically what would be your answer if my post was worded like this....

'You've been given the use of $250k for a timeframe of 2 years, at the end of the 2 years you have to give it back in full so whatever you make on it is yours but if you make a loss you need to make it up out of your own pocket. What would you do? 😁

[Llewellyn2006]

Cheers for the input guys...
I thought I was being overly cautious by only using a quarter of it in reasonably low risk investments. I was thinking I'd hate to look back in a year or two and just see a wasted opportunity but I guess there's no risk in playing it safe.

Hypothetically what would be your answer if my post was worded like this....

'You've been given the use of $250k for a timeframe of 2 years, at the end of the 2 years you have to give it back in full so whatever you make on it is yours but if you make a loss you need to make it up out of your own pocket. What would you do? 😁

I'd do exactly the same as I suggested above. IMO any investment in the stock market should have a 4 or 5 year minimum timeframe. Even with an LIC the value of your original capital can go down. Even if the money is in a boring old account earning between 2 and 3 per cent it will be compounding with a very high degree of certainty that you'll have more money by the time you withdraw it than you did in the beginning.

[mjr]

That's easy.  I'd look for the highest interest rate I can get with a government guaranteed account.

[marty998]

@Jimmy9 - the Vanguard Fixed Income Fund might be an appropriate (if slightly riskier) option for you.

Reasonably safe if you believe that Governments and major companies will still be paying their bills in a couple of years time.

[lush]

Hey Lush

I'm actually in a similar boat in that I'm looking at trying to get income from VAS, VGS as well as a Wholesale High Growth Fund to put food on the table and keep keeping the lights on.

.

Hi Misterhorsey - thanks for the insight into your early retirement phase and how you are managing things. I hope you do the case study! I know there would be a lot of people interested in your case and learnings so far. I am glad you have had some luck in the upturn in the market. I take your point about being more frugal and maybe starting retirement a bit earlier, you certainly have me dreaming a little :)

[Jimmy9]

Here I thought I was being lazy by not getting our money working for us but it turns out I was doing the sensible prudent thing all along 😁 though it is all lumped in one account so not under the guarantee....better start shopping around for some savings accounts.

Must say I'm a little disappointed I wasn't spoon fed with an answer of 'put your coin in XYZ fund, go have a beer, come back in a couple of years and it will have eclipsed the other 3/4 in the savings account' 😋 ....maybe I'll dip the toe with a smaller percentage just so I feel like I'm doing something productive

[Fresh Bread]

Citibank still has 3% for a 6 month TD for balances of 250k or more. We parked our reno/building money there because we need low risk on that pot. Opening a Citibank account is a pain, fyi - while I was sat there filling out the third or fourth form I was wishing I'd left the money at 2.75% in our CUA online account.

[Llewellyn2006]

Citibank still has 3% for a 6 month TD for balances of 250k or more. We parked our reno/building money there because we need low risk on that pot. Opening a Citibank account is a pain, fyi - while I was sat there filling out the third or fourth form I was wishing I'd left the money at 2.75% in our CUA online account.

Anything to do with banking with Citibank is a pain. I had a client that used to bank with them and even the smallest change needed several forms filled in and the whole exercise just became one giant PITA. There are plenty of places where you can open an account online in a few minutes.

[oysters]

Citibank still has 3% for a 6 month TD for balances of 250k or more. We parked our reno/building money there because we need low risk on that pot. Opening a Citibank account is a pain, fyi - while I was sat there filling out the third or fourth form I was wishing I'd left the money at 2.75% in our CUA online account.

Anything to do with banking with Citibank is a pain. I had a client that used to bank with them and even the smallest change needed several forms filled in and the whole exercise just became one giant PITA. There are plenty of places where you can open an account online in a few minutes.

Agree. I was using them a few years ago living in Japan, as it was the cheapest way I could access my Australian cash there. However now a few years later I've tried to get my last remaining ~$80 and close the account and cancel the cards and so far been unsuccessful! Grrr. I'm not a stupid person. Grrr. Be so much easier if I could just walk into a Branch.

[deborah]

I have been using an almost branchless bank for many years, and their service is excellent. Banks that have been set up that way tend to be much better than those who have evolved into being branchless in my opinion.

[oysters]

I have been using an almost branchless bank for many years, and their service is excellent. Banks that have been set up that way tend to be much better than those who have evolved into being branchless in my opinion.

Yes, I've used several and they've been great. Unfortunately in this case its a PITA. Could just be my personal situation trying to get access and closing, with this particular bank. I'll try again this week...

Mind you, CBA in all honesty absolutely rocks in an online and App based environment. I haven't seen anything better yet, comparing to work colleagues and family with different banks. They have branches... ;-)

[Llewellyn2006]

Yes, I've used several and they've been great. Unfortunately in this case its a PITA. Could just be my personal situation trying to get access and closing, with this particular bank. I'll try again this week...

Mind you, CBA in all honesty absolutely rocks in an online and App based environment. I haven't seen anything better yet, comparing to work colleagues and family with different banks. They have branches... ;-)

I use all the big four websites for my clients and the CBA is so far ahead of the others that it's not funny. The other 3 should just licence their own version of the CBA site and dump their own sites because by and large they're shite.

[Abundant life]

Mind you, CBA in all honesty absolutely rocks in an online and App based environment. I haven't seen anything better yet, comparing to work colleagues and family with different banks. They have branches... ;-)

I find the CBA online a PITA, mainly because I have POA for my elderly relatives who still have passbooks. Yes I can see the balances but I'm not able to transfer out of them, necessitating physically withdrawing $xxxx in cash and depositing it in St George across the road.

Another online bank with a good interest rate and not so many hoops to jump through is ME Bank. OH recently opened one. To get the bonus interest taking you to 2.95% you have to open an everyday account and just use pay pass once a week, but you don't have to deposit any particular amount per month. The bonus interest is good up to $250,000.

https://www.mebank.com.au/lps/osa/high-online-savings-account/?cid=OSAC0167&keyword_k=me%20bank%20online%20savings%20account&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9ueutbDH2AIVEyUrCh1QtA9qEAAYASAAEgKZqfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Also sometimes St George gives a 3% introductory rate on their maxi saver online account for 3 months. We used this in between selling and buying. When the 3 months is up you can negotiate a good interest rate for the next three months (that is a PITA too), but at least they have a 'gold service hotline' for you. I think the more money in there the better interest rate you can negotiate.

[asosharp]

Does anyone here know much about property investing?

I was trying to figure out where the best places to invest in Perth are. I came across some websites recommending Boomtown (doesn't work on the computer very well), DSR Data (but you have to pay from $129+ and I have no idea if it works and there's no free version), Microburbs (last updated in 2016), myrealestate.com.au (last updated in 2016).

[Rob_S]

I'm no property investor, nor am I in Perth but I would take a look at the propertychat www.propertychat.com.au forum for leads on where to invest.

[Llewellyn2006]

Does anyone here know much about property investing?

I was trying to figure out where the best places to invest in Perth are. I came across some websites recommending Boomtown (doesn't work on the computer very well), DSR Data (but you have to pay from $129+ and I have no idea if it works and there's no free version), Microburbs (last updated in 2016), myrealestate.com.au (last updated in 2016).

As far as I know it's still a tenant's market here with plenty of empty properties and correspondingly falling rents (may have stopped falling but they are still 30-40% below their peak of a few years ago). TBH I think there's better value elsewhere if you really must have a rental property. Just for the record I'm no fan of owning rental properties.

[asosharp]

Does anyone here know much about property investing?

I was trying to figure out where the best places to invest in Perth are. I came across some websites recommending Boomtown (doesn't work on the computer very well), DSR Data (but you have to pay from $129+ and I have no idea if it works and there's no free version), Microburbs (last updated in 2016), myrealestate.com.au (last updated in 2016).

As far as I know it's still a tenant's market here with plenty of empty properties and correspondingly falling rents (may have stopped falling but they are still 30-40% below their peak of a few years ago). TBH I think there's better value elsewhere if you really must have a rental property. Just for the record I'm no fan of owning rental properties.

I actually get a feeling here that people are diversified but mostly shares/ETF all the way.

In other news, I forwarded my mum an article about retirees and that they should hold shares and not property when they are retired. It was a Q&A with Noel Whittaker. I also think some of you may be interested in it.

http://www.smh.com.au/money/ask-an-expert/the-downside-to-investing-in-property-for-retirees-20160819-gqwoqh.html

Q. I refer to your recent article concerning the difficulty facing retirees as interest rates fall. Why would you not recommend property? It is still not hard to find a 6.5 per cent yield, let's say 5 per cent after expenses, probably less risky than shares and your capital base should appreciate with inflation or better.

The problem with property for retirees is increasing maintenance, as the property ages, and vacancies if it is hard to find a tenant. Also, the biggest disadvantage is that property is a lumpy asset and if you need money you would normally have to sell the entire property, which may take months. Also you would incur capital gains tax if it has grown in value.

A good share portfolio has none of these disadvantages as you are never liable for direct expenses, vacancies are non-existent, and you can sell a portion of your holding at short notice. The ability to sell in small parcels enables retirees in many cases to eliminate capital gains tax or at least minimise it. If you own a property, you can't sell the back bedroom.

[oysters]

That's a golden paragraph Asosharp! Thanks for sharing :-)


Reading down their thread, brings up Investment Bonds again for me. Its something I've been thinking about doing instead of this terrible ASG portfolio my ex manipulated into getting for our daughter. It performs terribly (the agent actually told me I should make sure that there is always at least $2000 in it otherwise with fees it could go backwards over the ~16 year period I was talking about...). Now that she has started school I might be able to draw it all out and put it in an investment bond instead.


Anyone know of good summary places to review investment bonds?

[deborah]

There was an interesting post by George Cochrane recently about insurance bonds (aka investment bonds) http://www.canberratimes.com.au/money/ask-an-expert/how-to-invest-for-your-grandchildren-20180109-h0fg9y.html ...

I've rarely been impressed with the performance of insurance bonds, even after taking into account their 30 per cent tax on their income. It could be that top fund managers are attracted to where the glamour and salaries are high, such as investment trusts and superannuation funds.

[oysters]

There was an interesting post by George Cochrane recently about insurance bonds (aka investment bonds) http://www.canberratimes.com.au/money/ask-an-expert/how-to-invest-for-your-grandchildren-20180109-h0fg9y.html ...

I've rarely been impressed with the performance of insurance bonds, even after taking into account their 30 per cent tax on their income. It could be that top fund managers are attracted to where the glamour and salaries are high, such as investment trusts and superannuation funds.

Thanks Deborah.


Yes the fees seem fairly high unfortunately. Probably better for me to just start putting it into my ETFs when I can withdraw it, and taking careful note of units and purchase date for my daughter.


I'm slowly starting to teach her about money and the concept of saving and interest. In a few years maybe I'll be able to start teaching her about all this. She starts school in a couple of weeks.

[oysters]

This article on Residential property prices is interesting:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-10/housing-weakness-set-to-worsen-tips-morgan-stanley/9317422


Anyone know of a similar forecasting index to the MSHAUS one mentioned in the article, but for non residential property?


Yes, cue market timing of REITs ;-)

[asosharp]

There was an interesting post by George Cochrane recently about insurance bonds (aka investment bonds) http://www.canberratimes.com.au/money/ask-an-expert/how-to-invest-for-your-grandchildren-20180109-h0fg9y.html ...

I've rarely been impressed with the performance of insurance bonds, even after taking into account their 30 per cent tax on their income. It could be that top fund managers are attracted to where the glamour and salaries are high, such as investment trusts and superannuation funds.

Thanks Deborah.


Yes the fees seem fairly high unfortunately. Probably better for me to just start putting it into my ETFs when I can withdraw it, and taking careful note of units and purchase date for my daughter.


I'm slowly starting to teach her about money and the concept of saving and interest. In a few years maybe I'll be able to start teaching her about all this. She starts school in a couple of weeks.

I think there's a bit in the Barefoot Investor about children and I think he recommends ETFs and LICs. He doesn't recommend bonds unless you're in a higher tax income bracket but from what I've been reading bonds are not that great as the rates on those are almost like putting your cash into a HISA.

[bigchrisb]

This article on Residential property prices is interesting:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-10/housing-weakness-set-to-worsen-tips-morgan-stanley/9317422


Anyone know of a similar forecasting index to the MSHAUS one mentioned in the article, but for non residential property?


Yes, cue market timing of REITs ;-)

The PCA  (property council of Australia) publishes some sentiment data. See http://research.propertycouncil.com.au/research-and-data/anz-property-council-survey to have a look.

[pistolpete]

Just wondering on how would you go about setting up an ivestmebt plan for a mid 20's person looking to invest for the very long term 30 year plus trying to make it as simple as possible?

Reading jl Collins and following his principles looks easy but implementing them to Aust markets is a bit different due to the etf lic offerings.

I was thinking maybe vas, vgs and cash I addition to some lics purchased as discount to nta such as argo,  bki, aui , mir or qve for mid small caps and pmc for international dividend yields taking advantage of the company structure of these lics and the fully franked divs and dividend smoothing over etf trust structures?!!

Thoughts.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Just wondering on how would you go about setting up an ivestmebt plan for a mid 20's person looking to invest for the very long term 30 year plus trying to make it as simple as possible?

Reading jl Collins and following his principles looks easy but implementing them to Aust markets is a bit different due to the etf lic offerings.

I was thinking maybe vas, vgs and cash I addition to some lics purchased as discount to nta such as argo,  bki, aui , mir or qve for mid small caps and pmc for international dividend yields taking advantage of the company structure of these lics and the fully franked divs and dividend smoothing over etf trust structures?!!

Thoughts.

As easy as possible? Vanguard life strategy fund and automate regular deposits from each pay, don’t touch, sit back and watch it grow. Also, consolidate all supers into an industry super fund, like Aus super, download the app, watch it grow. That’s probably as simple as it could get.

[pistolpete]

Understand that the life strategy is auto rebalanced from vanguard but on draw down phase what if I wanted to rebalanced different classes which ever is stronger or weaker (I can't) and the lic holding I believe are a bit better due to the fully franked divs and company structure only thing with these is the trading to premium of nta where etfs then seem more favourable. I guess that's why I mentioned having the best of both worlds etfs if lics are trading at substantial premiums! I guess there has to be a compromise somewhere!

[oysters]

Understand that the life strategy is auto rebalanced from vanguard but on draw down phase what if I wanted to rebalanced different classes which ever is stronger or weaker (I can't) and the lic holding I believe are a bit better due to the fully franked divs and company structure only thing with these is the trading to premium of nta where etfs then seem more favourable. I guess that's why I mentioned having the best of both worlds etfs if lics are trading at substantial premiums! I guess there has to be a compromise somewhere!

Yeah, then you want to DIY with ETFs. I'm sure if you've got this far, and are thinking about how to best rebalance, you can figure out and handle it :-)


Be careful on adjusting based on whatever is stronger/weaker. Choose an asset allocation and stick to it if possible. Otherwise, this is akin to stock picking and will end up seeing you over-rebalancing, and, selling low and buying high. Basically, stock picking but with ETFs.


Look up Kitces. He has some interesting analyses on adjusting Asset allocations intelligently with "glide path ratios". Also on how to adjust allocations and SWRs (slightly) based on CAPE ratios.

[ynotme]

Hi all

I've been thinking about diversifying my portfolio into REITs and infrastructure as I've heard they smooth out a bear market. However i've also read that it's not the best time to buy these sectors as interest rates rise since they usually have a lot of debt. I don't need income at the moment as I'm still working but have limited property market exposure so wondering if REITs may be worth buying.

Can I ask if you all have a specific allocation to these sectors outside the whole of market ETFs? And if so, your experiences with them.

I'd prefer to keep things simple and stick with a small number of ETFs so don't want to buy sectors unless there is a good reason to.

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts!

[Wadiman]

Ynotme -

I have about a 10% allocation to REIT ETFs - VAP (6%) and DJRE (4% - global REIT).

I have these for diversification purposes as in some years they have performed quite differently to other sectors.

7 year total returns (including GFC) have been 13.8% for VAP and 3 year return (since inception) for DJRE is about 5%.  However, you may want to consider longer term trends - refer here: http://insights.vanguard.com.au/static/asset-class/app.html

[oysters]

Ynotme - check out Tyler's Portfolio Charts and have a play with Australian allocations. Including REITs in small percentages (e about 10%) in diversified ETF AAs tends to be a good thing on SWRs. So does a little gold of a few percent, and "commodoties" (Not sure what commodity data Tyler is using exactly or what ETFs replicate that in Aus...). Gold is easy to buy as an ETF here but general commodities not so much as an index (the options aren't that great, high MERs, etc), neither Infrastructure last time I looked. But I do like the thinking. Maybe we'll see more lower ETF MERs for these things in the future?


TIPS that focus on infrastructure might be an option also in small amounts. I think there is a Sydney airport one. Single asset though...



Eg try this calculator:
https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolio/financial-independence/


Actually Tyler's calculators, which seem to give the most options for Australians, generally suggest that diversified ETF portfolios are definitely the way to go, and more critical for Australians that Americans if one wants to get a SWR above 4%.


(Note his calculators don't include franking credits for Australians)

[marty998]

Hi all

I've been thinking about diversifying my portfolio into REITs and infrastructure as I've heard they smooth out a bear market. However i've also read that it's not the best time to buy these sectors as interest rates rise since they usually have a lot of debt. I don't need income at the moment as I'm still working but have limited property market exposure so wondering if REITs may be worth buying.

Can I ask if you all have a specific allocation to these sectors outside the whole of market ETFs? And if so, your experiences with them.

I'd prefer to keep things simple and stick with a small number of ETFs so don't want to buy sectors unless there is a good reason to.

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts!

I have problems with REITS... it was one of the (multiple) ways I got burned in the GFC.

When you buy real estate you buy bricks and mortar. When you buy a REIT, you buy bricks and mortar with probably a little bit of financial engineering on top.

There's simply more things that can go wrong.

I will never again touch a REIT that uses commercial mortgage backed securities as their primary source of funding. If normal banks would lend to them and they have to source more exotic loans from non-traditional lenders, why would I take a punt and invest in them?

Infra is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Usually the domain of big super funds with the patience to hold forever. They have done very well the past few years - low inflation, utilities with virtually guaranteed rates of return, low interest rates - almost the perfect conditions.

Don't know if that will continue, but I suppose the name of the game is to find an asset / fund manager who simply will keep the lights on and not do anything stupid to fuck it up.

[ynotme]

Thanks for all your replies and experiences.

With REITs, VAP seems a good choice and I also liked MVA which caps exposure to any single REIT to 10%. It does have a higher fee, 0.35% vs 0.23% for VAP.

I did find a global infrastructure etf listed on the ASX, VanEck's IFRA, which has Transurban as one of the top holdings. It has got a higher fee at 0.52% and is hedged.

Anyway will read more and play with Tyler's portfolio tool. No hurry to make a decision.

[bigchrisb]

I've done very well out of REITS - my REIT holdings have outperformed the balance of my portfolio since I got serious about building the stash.

However, this has been a benefit of timing - I only really started pumping money in during the early-mid stages of the GFC, and bought a number of REITS after they had imploded.  Look at the 10 year returns of the surviving REITS to get a picture of what returns have been like for those who held at the start of the GFC.  GPT, -2.4%p.a. GMG, -3.5% p.a.  and don't even mention the survivorship bias - anyone hold Centro at the time?

I also got a sense of which of the REITS were well run - most of the REITS were part of my client base when I had my business. 

I still have an overweight exposure to REITS, with them being about 24% of my direct holdings (excluding index/LICs).   However, I've been seeing less value here of late, and have been letting these just sit there.

I also chose not to use indexes for REITS, as the fees are high, and the index is small.  8 securities gets you 86% of the index (SCG, WFD, GMG, SGP, DXS, GPT, VCX, MGR).  Why pay Vanguard 0.23% (or more to other providers) if you can replicate the same holdings easily?

On infrastructure, I've occasionally looked at Argo Listed Infrastructure, a LIC with global holdings. I got interested recently looking at the discount to NTA - you can currently buy $1.15 of assets for $1 with them.  However, I then look at the management costs (1.2%) and say no way.

[Abundant life]

anyone hold Centro at the time?

Ugh, I remember clearly wanting to sell, but OH saying, no they will come back up again, yeah right! For a long time our holding was $79 and wasn't worth selling. It did morph into Federation Centres, then Vicinity Centres and my holding  gradually climbed to $1200 when I sold. From memory I think our original holding plus DR was $9000+, definitely a learning experience.

[ynotme]

Thanks for all your input. I hadn't realised the Aussie REITs had structural issues and imploded during the GFC. I also found a reference to Vanguard removing the allocation to listed property in their diversified funds last year.

Without knowing the sector well, I may just keep market cap exposure for now.

[Liesel]

Hi, I'm new to the forum.  I have a question for Australians, please, re Vanguard.
I have an 18 year old son who is just starting university this year.  He will be living at home, working part time and saving for the next three years, a combination of casual shiftwork and army reserve, and saving $200-$300 per week depending on shifts.  From reading MMM I think this money should be going into some sort of Vanguard index fund, with dividends reinvested and regular contributions.  Which is the best option for him, with a low amount to start with ($1000)?  which has the lowest fees?
My 16 year old is also working casual shifts and wants to open an investment account to deposit his earnings.  I'd appreciate any advice whether he can open a Vanguard index fund as per the above to make contributions through the year.
Thanks in advance.

[Notch]

Hi, I'm new to the forum.  I have a question for Australians, please, re Vanguard.
I have an 18 year old son who is just starting university this year.  He will be living at home, working part time and saving for the next three years, a combination of casual shiftwork and army reserve, and saving $200-$300 per week depending on shifts.  From reading MMM I think this money should be going into some sort of Vanguard index fund, with dividends reinvested and regular contributions.  Which is the best option for him, with a low amount to start with ($1000)?  which has the lowest fees?
My 16 year old is also working casual shifts and wants to open an investment account to deposit his earnings.  I'd appreciate any advice whether he can open a Vanguard index fund as per the above to make contributions through the year.
Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the forums, and good work for getting your kids so interested in investing!

I’d start with a Vanguard retail fund because they’re so simple to set-up and contribute to.  Australian Shares or Diversified High Growth funds would be fine.

[marty998]

Agree - the Vanguard retail fund would be best (not the ETF, as brokerage will eat away chunk everytime you go to buy).

For the 16 year old, be careful of punitive marginal tax rates. Minors get the first $416 of investment income tax free and then after that get taxed quite heavily (at 66%, reducing to 49% after about $1000 of income). The idea is to discourage parents from putting assets in the name of their kids and getting the benefits of more tax free thresholds and reduced marginal rates.....

[BattlaP]

Although I agree with the recommendation (retail fund) and it is what I'm opening for my child also, I just wanted to note that it is a minimum of $5000 for the initial investment, so it doesn't really meet your request.

[FFA]

I'm not sure about that, these days brokerage can be quite cheap, commsec has the $10 option for $1k trades. And then there are cheaper brokers.

Saving $200-300/week means you could be buying $1k parcels each month. $10 brokerage is 1% but the retail fees are much higher than ETF's (e.g. VAS 0.14% versus Retail 0.75%). You would already be in front with ETF's by the second year, and then gaining 0.61% p.a. from then on... Or invest $3k quarterly and you can reduce to 0.5% or less on the brokerage (e.g. using NABTrade). I favour the ETF route if you don't mind doing executing a trade every now and then.

[Liesel]

Agree - the Vanguard retail fund would be best (not the ETF, as brokerage will eat away chunk everytime you go to buy).

For the 16 year old, be careful of punitive marginal tax rates. Minors get the first $416 of investment income tax free and then after that get taxed quite heavily (at 66%, reducing to 49% after about $1000 of income). The idea is to discourage parents from putting assets in the name of their kids and getting the benefits of more tax free thresholds and reduced marginal rates.....

Ah I didn't know that - back in my day we were paid cash in hand for teenager jobs!  Does the heavy tax also apply to actual on-the-books declared wages earned by the 16 year old (he works casual shifts at a fast food franchise)?

For the 18 year old, it looks as though from everyone's advice that he should save up parcels of $1000 at a time and put that in Vanguard ETF with the lowest brokerage fee we can find.

[bob999]

Hi, I'm new to the forum.  I have a question for Australians, please, re Vanguard.
I have an 18 year old son who is just starting university this year.  He will be living at home, working part time and saving for the next three years, a combination of casual shiftwork and army reserve, and saving $200-$300 per week depending on shifts.  From reading MMM I think this money should be going into some sort of Vanguard index fund, with dividends reinvested and regular contributions.  Which is the best option for him, with a low amount to start with ($1000)?  which has the lowest fees?
My 16 year old is also working casual shifts and wants to open an investment account to deposit his earnings.  I'd appreciate any advice whether he can open a Vanguard index fund as per the above to make contributions through the year.
Thanks in advance.

I know a lot of people would recommend the Vanguard Retail fund but I would stay away from it. Reason being the 0.9% management fee. Vanguard are a great company and I invest through them (wholesale fund) but their retail fund in Australia is just way too expensive.

Consider investing through another robo platform or app such as Acorn. They are (from memory) around 0.25%.

[Red_Gold]

Hi, I'm new to the forum.  I have a question for Australians, please, re Vanguard.
I have an 18 year old son who is just starting university this year.  He will be living at home, working part time and saving for the next three years, a combination of casual shiftwork and army reserve, and saving $200-$300 per week depending on shifts.  From reading MMM I think this money should be going into some sort of Vanguard index fund, with dividends reinvested and regular contributions.  Which is the best option for him, with a low amount to start with ($1000)?  which has the lowest fees?
My 16 year old is also working casual shifts and wants to open an investment account to deposit his earnings.  I'd appreciate any advice whether he can open a Vanguard index fund as per the above to make contributions through the year.
Thanks in advance.

I got sons of same ages and here is what we have done for the 18 year old. Set up high interest Ubank account, if they deposit $200 per month they are eligible for bonus rate which is reasonable enough in this low rate environment. Then, once their savings reached over 5000 I instructed him to buy VGS through NABtrade. I regret not signing him up with SelfWealth for cheaper trades. Once he received paperwork we set up dividend reinvestment plan. When his savings reach over 5k again he will buy more VGS or VAS.
I looked at Acorns and Stockspots and their fees are too high imo. I have retail Vanguard High Growth fund from time before ETFs were available on the market and consider selling it and purchasing ETFs instead. In the long run I should be ahead due to lower management fees of ETFs even considering brokerage. Also switched to SelfWealth because of their $9.5 flat brokerage fee.
Our kids are young and there is no rush to jump into the market. Let the money grow untaxed in the high interest account then buy Vanguard ETFs in larger parcels with the lowest fee you can find. Untaxed because kids are unlikely to earn over 18k and so won't pay any tax on their earnings. And unless you invest large sums of money in their names, their dividend income won't reach $416 for a very very long time. 5k of VGS just brought us $22 in dividends, so not an issue at all.

[misterhorsey]

I know a lot of people would recommend the Vanguard Retail fund but I would stay away from it. Reason being the 0.9% management fee. Vanguard are a great company and I invest through them (wholesale fund) but their retail fund in Australia is just way too expensive.

Yes the retail funds start off high, but the management fee has a sliding scale.  Taking the Retail High Growth Life Strategy Fund, it's 0.9% on the first $50k, then 0.6% for the next $50k and then 0.35% for amounts over $100k.  The 0.9% is a bit high I'd agree, and it still averages out as a higher fee, but it may suit some investors who don't qualify for a wholesale fund, and it's a rather painless way of getting your toe in the water.

For those just getting into investing, it may be better to be invested with a slightly less optimal fee, then not invested.  Just remember to review occasionally!

It's worth repeating as well that although the Vanguard Wholesale fund has a published $500k minimum initial investment, they don't necessarily enforce it. But speak to them first.

[Notch]

I know a lot of people would recommend the Vanguard Retail fund but I would stay away from it. Reason being the 0.9% management fee. Vanguard are a great company and I invest through them (wholesale fund) but their retail fund in Australia is just way too expensive.

Yes the retail funds start off high, but the management fee has a sliding scale.  Taking the Retail High Growth Life Strategy Fund, it's 0.9% on the first $50k, then 0.6% for the next $50k and then 0.35% for amounts over $100k.  The 0.9% is a bit high I'd agree, and it still averages out as a higher fee, but it may suit some investors who don't qualify for a wholesale fund, and it's a rather painless way of getting your toe in the water.

For those just getting into investing, it may be better to be invested with a slightly less optimal fee, then not invested.  Just remember to review occasionally!

It's worth repeating as well that although the Vanguard Wholesale fund has a published $500k minimum initial investment, they don't necessarily enforce it. But speak to them first.

They definitely don’t enforce it. $100k is the minimum. Source: called them and invested $100k last month.