Author Topic: Anyone in Bitcoin?  (Read 17667 times)

maizefolk

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2018, 11:49:42 AM »
Honestly, the long gradual* slide in the price of bitcoin and associated currencies has been great. It's now possible to discuss the technology and its future implications online again without having the conversation hijacked by either speculators/scammers, or people convinced everyone interested in bitcoin/cryptocurrency is by definition a scammer/speculator themselves.

*By the standards of movements in cryptocurrency prices.

dayzero

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2018, 12:09:59 PM »
Venezuelan Bolivar then, if you like.  No need to be rude really.

effigy98

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2018, 12:18:47 PM »
MMM's tweets make a subtle case for bitcoin long term... Bank just seizes money? I have had this happen multiple times too because they claim my regular paychecks are unusually large. I am sorry banker people you did not go into tech, don't seize my money. I have had 3 week holds, permanent holds, all kinds of stupid shit over the past 10 years.

talltexan

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2018, 01:25:19 PM »
Just because Bitcoin is better than many currencies in the world doesn't mean that it's better than owning shares of businesses who operate within the world's reserve currency. Many of those businesses would have the resources to do business in bitcoin readily if it ever became necessary.

maizefolk

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2018, 01:35:52 PM »
Interesting example of that, I read that one of the ways relatively wealthier Venezuelans are dealing with how rapidly inflation destroys the value of savings is to set up a brokerage account to as a lot like a savings account. Any money that goes in is immediately used to buy stocks on the Venezuelan exchange (which, like any asset priced in bolivars, is growing rapidly in nominal terms). For any purchases stocks are sold to cover the bill.

effigy98

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2018, 05:28:53 PM »
Just because Bitcoin is better than many currencies in the world doesn't mean that it's better than owning shares of businesses who operate within the world's reserve currency. Many of those businesses would have the resources to do business in bitcoin readily if it ever became necessary.

I agree, I have 30% of net worth in stocks but only 2% in crypto. The rest in other hard assets and bonds. I however, get most excited by the prospects of crytpo and love tracking it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:30:56 PM by effigy98 »

ILikeDividends

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2018, 06:51:03 PM »
Remind me again what % the Lira has lost this year, and what % BitCoin has lost?  What's with all the one-post-wonders on Bitcoin today?

It likely has to do with the BitCoin ETN announced yesterday: CXBTF.  It's a Swedish ETN that has been around since 2015, but is now also quoted in USD.  Depending on your broker, you can now buy this ETN in US accounts.

https://bitcoinist.com/us-investors-regulated-bitcoin-etn/

Supposedly, Fidelity now allows trades in CXBTF. Schwab, on the other hand, doesn't currently.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1) The issuer promises to keep the ETN 100% hedged by buying or selling whatever amounts of BitCoin needed to keep it 100% hedged.  I don't know if this is required by Swedish regulatory authorities.  If it isn't required, one concern I would have is the potential for a future change in the structure resulting in less than a 100% hedging factor.

2) BitCoin has a relatively slow transaction speed.  If there is a mad rush of buying or selling, trades against the ETN have no comparable technologically imposed throttle, so I would be concerned with the issuers ability to buy or sell BitCoin fast enough--if trading volume in the ETN outpaces BitCoin transaction limitations--to keep the ETN 100% hedged without incurring a drag effect in fast moving markets.

3) The ETN is actually traded in Swedish Krona, so any US investors are exposed to exchange rate fluctuations between the two currencies.

4) Because an ETN is a debt security, the market value of the ETN can be influenced by the creditworthiness of the issuer.  If there is a downgrade, the market value of your holdings could fall, even if BitCoin doesn't.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 09:12:38 PM by ILikeDividends »

marty998

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2018, 08:43:24 PM »
Boo. I thought the world was over shitcoin.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2018, 09:06:48 PM »
Boo. I thought the world was over shitcoin.
Come on now, tell us how you really feel. ;)

Seriously, though, I can understand the use-case for criminals, or for people living in countries with a trash currency, or with draconian currency controls.

But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency; not even as a medium for gambling.  Gambling that I understand has at least a game wrapped around it, either to play or to watch, and sometimes an element of skill on the player's part.

As it applies in the USA, I view the technology behind BitCoin as nothing more than a very elegant solution that is still in search of a problem to solve.

Hooray for anyone who got lucky with it.  But I won't be rolling the dice on it.  And it's not just because there are no dice to roll.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 09:32:23 PM by ILikeDividends »

marty998

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2018, 05:34:59 AM »
Boo. I thought the world was over shitcoin.
Come on now, tell us how you really feel. ;)

Seriously, though, I can understand the use-case for criminals, or for people living in countries with a trash currency, or with draconian currency controls.

But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency; not even as a medium for gambling.  Gambling that I understand has at least a game wrapped around it, either to play or to watch, and sometimes an element of skill on the player's part.

As it applies in the USA, I view the technology behind BitCoin as nothing more than a very elegant solution that is still in search of a problem to solve.

Hooray for anyone who got lucky with it.  But I won't be rolling the dice on it.  And it's not just because there are no dice to roll.

I don't doubt whoever came up with the original coins had a poetic / romantic vision for what they would become. But the proliferation of various shitcoins, together with the complete bastardisation of bitcoin, turning it into a specufest and trying to legitimise it as an investment or investment asset class poses risks to financial system, provides a new channel for criminals, provides a new method of extracting money from people who don't know any better and generally acts as an air suck from other more productive uses of human capacity and endeavour.

I need to take a breath now.

Paul990

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2019, 12:37:35 PM »
But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency
I don't know if you are talking about Bitcoin or about blockchain-based currencies in general, but one of the main points of them is doing transactions, exchanging money avoiding the middleman, the banks.
Besides, even $ and Ä, if those are what you were referring to with "developed democracies", are depreciating, they are losing purchasing power.



GuitarStv

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2019, 12:46:16 PM »
Much better to spend those depreciating dollars on a 'currency' with no value whatsoever (beyond speculation).

Telecaster

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2019, 02:11:07 PM »
But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency
I don't know if you are talking about Bitcoin or about blockchain-based currencies in general, but one of the main points of them is doing transactions, exchanging money avoiding the middleman, the banks.
Besides, even $ and Ä, if those are what you were referring to with "developed democracies", are depreciating, they are losing purchasing power.

Bitcoin is off approximately 50% from its peak.  The USD and the Euro have never experienced anything remotely close to that level of inflation. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2019, 02:45:07 PM »
Seriously, though, I can understand the use-case for criminals, or for people living in countries with a trash currency, or with draconian currency controls.

But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency; not even as a medium for gambling.

I used ETH to send my brother living in another country (not a developed democracy) some money.
I used BTC to buy good that are legal to sell in almost every country including western Europe, but not the USA. The people willing to ship them to the USA didn't want a USA money trail.
Another time I used BTC to buy goods online that had a steep discount when paying in BTC. Possibly because they were committing tax fraud, but that isn't my responsibility to police.

EDITed to add - as the buyer of said goods, AFAIK, I violated no laws.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 02:49:17 PM by PDXTabs »

Paul990

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2019, 05:11:27 AM »
But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency
I don't know if you are talking about Bitcoin or about blockchain-based currencies in general, but one of the main points of them is doing transactions, exchanging money avoiding the middleman, the banks.
Besides, even $ and Ä, if those are what you were referring to with "developed democracies", are depreciating, they are losing purchasing power.

Bitcoin is off approximately 50% from its peak.  The USD and the Euro have never experienced anything remotely close to that level of inflation.
I didn't say that $ and Ä depreciate in the same measure as Bitcoin.
I said that $ and Ä depreciate too.
I believe they depreciate at a higher rate than what the official figures tell us.
But all this belongs to the Besides part of my previous post, which is its incidental part. Its main part was more important.


As it applies in the USA, I view the technology behind BitCoin as nothing more than a very elegant solution that is still in search of a problem to solve.
@ILikeDividends,
I think cryptos have already found and helped to solve some problems.

1. Cutting out the middleman
2. More Confidential Transactions
3. Greater Access to Credit
4. Individual Ownership
5. Strong Security

https://blog.finjan.com/advantages-of-cryptocurrency/

talltexan

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2019, 07:32:16 AM »
Thanks to this thread, I checked, and there has been some wild price action on crypto- in the past week. It appears that double-digit percentage moves are the norm for the moment. It's hard for me to understand how storing wealth in something so volatile can be appealing.

Telecaster

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »
Thanks to this thread, I checked, and there has been some wild price action on crypto- in the past week. It appears that double-digit percentage moves are the norm for the moment. It's hard for me to understand how storing wealth in something so volatile can be appealing.

Down about 25% over the past week.   And in other news, another Bitcoin exchange disappeared: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hanktucker/2019/06/27/crypto-exchange-and-xrp-refuge-bitsane-vanishes-scamming-as-many-as-246000-users/#2f2a14fc77fa

ChpBstrd

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2019, 01:18:31 PM »
Thanks to this thread, I checked, and there has been some wild price action on crypto- in the past week. It appears that double-digit percentage moves are the norm for the moment. It's hard for me to understand how storing wealth in something so volatile can be appealing.

Itís desperation investing in the everything bubble. Canít make money in overpriced bonds. Canít make money in overpriced stocks. Etc... Might as well hold 97% in treasuries and gamble the rest on crypto.

Travis

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2019, 06:10:32 PM »
But for the life of me, I can't understand any use-cases, nor the appeal, for anyone in a developed democracy with its own currency
I don't know if you are talking about Bitcoin or about blockchain-based currencies in general, but one of the main points of them is doing transactions, exchanging money avoiding the middleman, the banks.
Besides, even $ and Ä, if those are what you were referring to with "developed democracies", are depreciating, they are losing purchasing power.

Bitcoin is off approximately 50% from its peak.  The USD and the Euro have never experienced anything remotely close to that level of inflation.
I didn't say that $ and Ä depreciate in the same measure as Bitcoin.
I said that $ and Ä depreciate too.
I believe they depreciate at a higher rate than what the official figures tell us.
But all this belongs to the Besides part of my previous post, which is its incidental part. Its main part was more important.


As it applies in the USA, I view the technology behind BitCoin as nothing more than a very elegant solution that is still in search of a problem to solve.
@ILikeDividends,
I think cryptos have already found and helped to solve some problems.

1. Cutting out the middleman
2. More Confidential Transactions
3. Greater Access to Credit
4. Individual Ownership
5. Strong Security

https://blog.finjan.com/advantages-of-cryptocurrency/

All fractional reserve currencies depreciate. That's how we get more of them to spend. Economies with a fixed amount of currency don't grow or have financial stability problems. 

You believe they're hiding inflation numbers? Believe based on what?

1. Maybe the only real benefit for those with limited access to banks.
2. Hiding financial transactions is a benefit to whom, exactly? Financial transparency has been one of the pillars of our economy for decades. Post 9/11 financial laws that were largely adopted internationally were created specifically to make even more financial transactions traceable.  As soon as the Washington Post shows the following headline "Smugglers caught paying for a ship full of weapons with Bitcoin" you can kiss what limited confidentiality exists goodbye.  Bitcoin will be regulated or outlawed.  The former simply takes away the perceived benefits. The latter can make several hundred billion dollars in speculation disappear overnight.
3. How much credit can a heavily fluctuating currency offer?
4/5. So secure that individual owners have lost passwords and locked themselves out of countless millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin. Possibly forever.

talltexan

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2019, 07:54:00 AM »
I decided I was tired of missing out on the action, so I put in some low-ball bids. Instead of falling toward my bid, BTC zoomed up another 10% (Ether trading about 4% greater than my current bid). Looks like the excitement is back!

No reason to change my bids, I'm sure they'll trip soon enough.

El_Mariachi

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2019, 08:12:32 AM »
nah way too speculative for my taste

but it is interesting and I am curious how it will react to Libra

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2019, 09:03:42 AM »
Bitcoin will only become viable as a currency when it does not fluctuate so much daily or weekly.  The fluctuation, which attracts speculative investors, is actually a big negative toward using bitcoin for anything mainstream.