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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Investor Alley => Topic started by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 09:26:15 AM

Title: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 09:26:15 AM
I know this is against the grain here and not asking whether people believe in the technology, or a bubble, or whatever else.   EDIT: the "ashamed" part is because we follow Mustachian guidelines in most other aspects of our lives.

Just curious who else actually has made a decent chunk??  I know I will get the "it's a bubble", "won't touch with a 10 ft pole", "stupid", etc responses but my wife and I thought it would be fun back in early summer to put some money into a few crypto currencies to see what would happen.  We didn't expect this Fall/Winter rush and to have it be all over the news but we made $40k on $10k risk and cashed out quite a bit while continuing to let the rest ride.  We've never counted the money in our net worth and we went into it knowing it was an unregulated, unknown, and risky adventure.

Obviously I don't condone this to anyone but I know there are people on this forum who are very smart with technology and probably have been intrigued by it that don't post on here about their "investments" due to people jumping on them in loads with negative feedback

So to reiterate, I'm not asking whether you believe in the technology or not.  I'm just curious who has had some fun times and REALIZED substantial (in their own terms) gains with it. 
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: talltexan on December 15, 2017, 10:07:29 AM
My gains are purely on paper. sigh
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ketchup on December 15, 2017, 10:17:28 AM
I did a GPU mining experiment around June.  I mined for a while then sold the cards (3x Nvidia GTX 1070s).  I've made all I invested back and am about $1500 ahead in realized gains, with an additional $1000 (present value) still in BTC (and BCH) that I'll probably just let ride for the hell of it.  If John McAfee still has a penis in 2020 it'll be worth a good chunk of change, if not, meh, I still won.

I know a guy a year younger than me that put his then-life-savings (low five figures) all-in on Bitcoin around 2011.  I think he did pretty well.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: talltexan on December 15, 2017, 10:25:54 AM
Is Bitcoin going to wind up like the lottery where a bunch of people admit that they're up, but we never hear from tens of thousands of people who put in "an amount I'm able to lose" and then lose it?
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 10:30:54 AM
Is Bitcoin going to wind up like the lottery where a bunch of people admit that they're up, but we never hear from tens of thousands of people who put in "an amount I'm able to lose" and then lose it?

I think it's human nature you hear more about wins than losses.  Same as people who go to casinos often and have a great night and tell the story but don't mention that last 5 monthly visits where they are down. 
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ChpBstrd on December 15, 2017, 10:53:07 AM
Is Bitcoin going to wind up like the lottery where a bunch of people admit that they're up, but we never hear from tens of thousands of people who put in "an amount I'm able to lose" and then lose it?
Yes. The saying "Hide and watch."... did that originate in Texas?
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Cassie on December 15, 2017, 10:56:55 AM
We started mining four years ago with my son.  We each invested a few thousand.  My son has cashed out 80k and we have cashed out 30k.  We still have 10 bitcoins.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 11:34:25 AM
We started mining four years ago with my son.  We each invested a few thousand.  My son has cashed out 80k and we have cashed out 30k.  We still have 10 bitcoins.

That's awesome!
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 11:35:49 AM
No need to be ashamed. ;P

Haha, agreed.  I'm not truly ashamed. 

I simply used that word because this forum tends to strongly lean towards traditional investment vehicles and people often get scoffed at if they don't make money through index funds, real estate, or hard work. 
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: lifeanon269 on December 15, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
Ya, no need to be ashamed. It really is an amazing technology. It just so happens that this technology is directly monetized. It's almost impossible to be involved with this technology and not have money vested in it...since well, it is essentially money.

So, no, I'm definitely not ashamed of the gains I've had because it is something that I am absolutely fascinated by. It is hard to be ashamed of curiosity and fascination. Even if I were to lose all the money that I have vested in it, I wouldn't feel ashamed of pursuing something that is ultimately a pretty amazing technological breakthrough in human history. Gains or losses, no shame to be found here. We live in fortunate times!
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: retirementnestegg on December 15, 2017, 12:55:00 PM
I put in a small amount of cash about two weeks ago - ie $4000, and it doubled in two weeks. Ive since sold my principal and am sitting on my profits now.

The volatility of bitcoin and crypto is mind boggling, BUT the volatility is how traders can make money.

Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: aspiringnomad on December 15, 2017, 01:14:08 PM
In my experience practically no one is ashamed of crypto gains. They post about it in forums (somewhat guilty myself), or on Instagram, and some even bring it up out of nowhere in conversation. Perhaps not here, but in real life, it seems to be less taboo to talk about crypto gains than market gains.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 15, 2017, 02:13:37 PM
In my experience practically no one is ashamed of crypto gains. They post about it in forums (somewhat guilty myself), or on Instagram, and some even bring it up out of nowhere in conversation. Perhaps not here, but in real life, it seems to be less taboo to talk about crypto gains than market gains.

I never realized that but it does seem accurate.  It actually happened to me a week ago when a buddy of mine mentioned heís up $11k in crypto but heís never once mentioned how his other portfolio is doing in all the years Iíve known him.  And I know heís a regular investor of the common variety. 

Even my own father has been asking me about my crypto gains but has never asked me about other investments outside of real estate.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: h82goslw on December 15, 2017, 02:22:33 PM
I put in a small amount of cash about two weeks ago - ie $4000, and it doubled in two weeks. Ive since sold my principal and am sitting on my profits now.

The volatility of bitcoin and crypto is mind boggling, BUT the volatility is how traders can make money.

How will you pay capital gains on that profit?  I havenít seeen how people will be claiming this income on their taxes.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: oldladystache on December 15, 2017, 02:28:03 PM
I got in with about $10,000 in late June, sold some last week for $15,000 and what's left is  worth about $50,000. Can't decide what to do now so doing nothing.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: alexpkeaton on December 15, 2017, 03:04:03 PM
I invested around $1,600 a year ago, mostly in ethereum. It went up a bunch and I sold half to cash out about $10k. I thought it was in a bubble then and wanted to lock in some gains, but at the same time I had (and still have) no idea how long the bubble might last, so I kept the other half "invested". I also diversified into some other cryptocurrencies around that time.

I'm now up to about $50k. I'm once again looking to cut that exposure in half and also diversify into some of the more exotic cryptocurrencies.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ILikeDividends on December 15, 2017, 04:12:08 PM
I put in a small amount of cash about two weeks ago - ie $4000, and it doubled in two weeks. Ive since sold my principal and am sitting on my profits now.

The volatility of bitcoin and crypto is mind boggling, BUT the volatility is how traders can make money.

How will you pay capital gains on that profit?  I havenít seeen how people will be claiming this income on their taxes.

It's called Schedule D.

2017 Instructions for Schedule D - IRS.gov
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sd.pdf

I suppose it's possible that there are no reporting requirements for the exchanges (yet), but I wouldn't bet future tax penalties applied retroactively on the IRS closing their eyes to the potential for tax evasion, if in fact they haven't acted already.

https://news.bitcoin.com/4-apps-helping-bitcoiners-with-tax-compliance/
Quote
Not much is certain when it comes to Bitcoin tax law. What is for sure: Bitcoin gains are taxable. Income, no matter if it is in national currency or digital currency, is taxable unless the IRS states differently. Indeed, U.S. citizens could be liable for taxes on their trading, holding, spending, mining, gifting, tipping, and donating of bitcoins.

To the OP:

Bitcoin profits: $0.00.  No shame and no regret.

A hearty yippee, kudos, and congratulations, to those less timid than I, who were able to grab the brass ring on this.  My only wish is that your good fortune continues.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: BTDretire on December 15, 2017, 04:27:22 PM
CNBC had an interview with a young man that started buying bitcoin in 2011. They said teenager, I couldn't tell if that's now, or when he started buying.
He now has 401 bitcoins, I'll do it for you, 401 x 17,000 = $6,817,000.
 He isn't selling, he think it will go higher.
Someone should facepunch him untill he realizes how lucky he is. Then get him to sell at least half as an insurance policy.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ChpBstrd on December 15, 2017, 08:36:58 PM
I got in with about $10,000 in late June, sold some last week for $15,000 and what's left is  worth about $50,000. Can't decide what to do now so doing nothing.
This is a classic investor psychology trap that prevents people from selling at peaks of bubbles. Selling would look a lot more attractive if it fell back to $500, but seems painful here at $17k.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: DavidAnnArbor on December 16, 2017, 07:30:02 AM
Sell it all and be done with it. Otherwise it's just a gambling casino.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Heckler on December 16, 2017, 08:51:27 AM
Im curious - is it even possible for him to cash (ie greenbacks in his pocket) the $7.5 million?  Where would that cash come from?
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: oldladystache on December 16, 2017, 09:36:06 AM
Im curious - is it even possible for him to cash (ie greenbacks in his pocket) the $7.5 million?  Where would that cash come from?

Over 19,000 bitcoins were exchanged on the gdax exchange in the past 24 hours. 401 more wouldn't make much of a ripple.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: maizeman on December 16, 2017, 10:22:22 AM
The dollars would come from other people who are currently trying to buy bitcoins.

About the lack of a ripple comment. Right now on GDAX the price per bitcoin is about $18,900, but looking at the depth chart if someone dropped a sale order for 400 bitcoins that would use up all the active buy limit orders above $18,500. Call it a 2% drop in price if he tried to cash out instantaneously.

Different people may disagree about whether a 2% drop in price is more or a less than a ripple. *shrug*
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: libertarian4321 on December 16, 2017, 10:24:39 AM
Is Bitcoin going to wind up like the lottery where a bunch of people admit that they're up,

A year from now, I suspect you'll hear about as much "bitcoin" talk as you heard ".com" talk in 2001 The deafening silence a year after the "this time it's different!" bubble pops and all the paper millionaires are back driving cabs again (well, maybe driving Uber, that's the one part of this mania that really is different than the last one).
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Syonyk on December 16, 2017, 10:51:41 AM
Wait, it jumped up again as I was writing.  Now he's at $7,538,783.96.  Another $18,000 in a few seconds...

A son asks his dad for $10.00 in bitcoin.

The dad replies, "$9.87?  What do you need $10.76 for?"

=============

I made a nice chunk of fiat a few years back with bitcoin - in the $100/btc days, late FPGA era/early ASIC era.  I bet, hard, against Butterfly "Two More Weeks" Labs, and came out nicely ahead.

Once the ASICs were announced, the FPGA based miner sales cratered, so the people building them stopped building them.  And because BFL was being silly, I discovered there was some insanely great demand.

So, I took a bit of a gamble and commissioned another run of FPGA miners from a guy.  I sold them for a very nice profit, mostly on eBay (nobody was willing to deal with eBay/PayPal for cryptocurrency miners, but I had a high feedback rating, had sold a ton on eBay over the past 15 years, and will put up with a lot of crap).  I did have to deal with eBay and PayPal, prove that I had the inventory I stated, and dealt with some temporary fund freezes, but it all resolved and I came out ahead.

Then, I had a chance to pickup some used FPGA miners from a farm that was being shut down.  So, I bought some btc from a guy I knew, and made an order of these.  Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, I should have just held the BTC, but I was looking for low risk ways to profit on BTC, and selling hardware I got for well below market value was a pretty good bet.  There was very, very little downside risk.  So, I sold a bunch of these boards either as standalone boards or in cluster form (I sold one guy a $30k cluster that could, at the time, mine north of 0.5 btc/day, and if him and his brother held onto some of the product of that, they should be very well off at the moment).  At the peak, I was selling a bunch of these for about 4x what I'd paid for them.

Eventually, BFL shipped something, and the FPGA era tapered off.  I sold my remaining stock for about what I'd paid (which was my exit plan - I think the last batch went to a guy doing Monte Carlo simulation or something), and moved on with my life.

That was informed by my reading (admittedly too late to really understand bitcoin early on) on the history of commodity currencies and gold rushes.  What I recognized was that the people who made out like bandits in gold rushes were not the miners.  They were the salesmen selling pickaxes, shovels, jeans, tents, food, etc.  Bitcoin was transitioning out of the "individual miner with a shovel" era to "teams of miners with some better equipment" era, but you could still get lucky with a shovel, and I sold those.  We're now deeply, deeply into the industrial mining era, so there's no opportunity to do something like that again, but bitcoin did follow the gold rush model fairly accurately.

It was nice, but I cashed out most of the BTC as I mined them in my test clusters.  I was looking for something with quite low downside risk.  That I'm not retired from my job right now should let you guess that I didn't hold onto enough of them...
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: FiveSigmas on December 16, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
A son asks his dad for $10.00 in bitcoin.

The dad replies, "$9.87?  What do you need $10.76 for?"

Okay, I lolled.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Cassie on December 16, 2017, 02:55:34 PM
We cashed out one today that was over 19k.  WE have been riding bitcoin up and down for the past 4 years so are holding on to the rest of ours for now.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Capt j-rod on December 16, 2017, 03:35:59 PM
Bitcoin will be the next beanie baby.... I think the big $$$ is trying to destroy bit coin by over inflating then watching it crash and burn thus proving them right that US dollars are the only safe and stable way. It shakes the very foundation that they are built on. Bitcoin is beautiful and genius, but it is HATED by the man.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: phil22 on December 16, 2017, 06:38:47 PM
i've been holding bitcoin since 2011 and closely following the cryptocurrency community nearly daily since then.

i filed a schedule D with my taxes for some bitcoin gains in 2013 and i'll so the same for this year's taxes.  there's no shame in admitting to profits but there are always uninformed, irrationally negative people involved in any discussion on cryptocurrencies so it's usually easier to keep quiet about it.  at least we on this board won't squander the profits!

Sell it all and be done with it. Otherwise it's just a gambling casino.

this is terrible advice.  investments, including highly speculative investments prone to bubbles, are about risk versus reward.  taking some profits is a good idea when the market gets bubbly, but bitcoin's coming up on 9 years old.  it's survived bigger bubbles than this one before (see log-scale chart below).  there's never any reason to sell all of it.  i'd argue it's probably best to never sell more than 10% in any given year -- which i wish i'd done in retrospect.

https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price?timespan=all&scale=1
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: phil22 on December 16, 2017, 07:01:54 PM
Bitcoin will be the next beanie baby.

bitcoins are nowhere near as cute and cuddly as beanie babies.  and nowhere near as useless.

I think the big $$$ is trying to destroy bit coin by over inflating then watching it crash and burn thus proving them right that US dollars are the only safe and stable way. It shakes the very foundation that they are built on. Bitcoin is beautiful and genius, but it is HATED by the man.

i think if the "powers that be" felt threatened by bitcoin they'd make it illegal.  i don't think that would actually work, though.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Helvegen on December 17, 2017, 08:42:25 AM
I made some decent money off of btc and some alts, but I am done with it after reading how horrific it is for the environment to mine and transact with cryptos.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consumption-explained/
https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-mining-guzzles-energyand-its-carbon-footprint-just-keeps-growing/
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Christof on December 17, 2017, 11:44:20 AM
I admit, I made money with Bitcoins... 1.94Ä. Bought them for 500 including fees, sold them for 501.94 including fees. The bitcoin exchange made more than I did.

It's not for me though. Unlike with my other investments I was constantly checking the current bitcoin price and watching things go up and down. I've seen my portfolio drop 10% a day before and didn't feel stressed out at all, because with shares there is some sort of history and an intrinsic value that I can understand. Not so much with bitcoins.

Bitcoins can definitely be part of an investment strategy if you follow Nassim Taleb's barbell approach: 90% ultra conservative risk free (such as cash or Treasury bills) and 10% high risk with "unlimited" gains like bitcoins.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Syonyk on December 17, 2017, 01:46:43 PM
I made some decent money off of btc and some alts, but I am done with it after reading how horrific it is for the environment to mine and transact with cryptos.

The energy calculations are bupkus, rubbish, and nonsense.  All mixed together to make a point.  They have literally nothing to do with the reality of bitcoin mining.

Quote
This is the methodology the Digiconomist website uses to estimate the Bitcoin network's energy consumption. It assumes that the industry will spend 60 percent of its revenue on electricity and then extrapolates from the current bitcoin price and prevailing electricity prices. It finds that the network is consuming energy at an annual rate of 32TWh.

It's nonsense, because that calculation involves "The Bitcoin Miner Fairy" that can will new ASICs into existence at a moment's notice, with no costs attached, and can create new datacenters out of thin air to host it.

A radically better methodology would be to look at the current gen ASIC hardware efficiency, look at the current network hash rate (rather public data, literally in the blockchain), and do the math from that point.  Some of the older miners probably came back online with the higher prices, but an awful lot of the early gen ASICs aren't exactly long term reliable.

So, from that point, you could get a far, far better number for how much electricity Bitcoin is using, and I expect you wouldn't come up with nearly "OMG TEH PLANET IS RUINX0RED!!!" numbers.  If your projections are that Bitcoin will use more energy than the planet in a few years, I'd offer that your numbers are the problem, not Bitcoin.

Damn it.  Now I'm going to have do to the math myself, because it seems nobody else out there cares to...
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: maizeman on December 17, 2017, 01:57:04 PM
Will be fascinated to see what you come up with Syonyk!
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: martyconlonontherun on December 17, 2017, 01:59:11 PM
I'm definitely the guy that tells everyone every time by wallet goes up five dollars.....then go 'meh' when my vanguard account goes up 200 in a day. Retirement investing is boring. Bitcoin is like winning fantasy football, everyone like to brag about in reality they just go lucky and hardly any skill.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ePalmtrees on December 17, 2017, 02:25:50 PM
The price is extremely volatile and yes, you could lose all your money, and I'm not telling anyone to buy it. But the shaming and negativity about it on here seems to be discrediting its worth altogether. Bitcoin, and the other cryptos (some in particular) are really cool and the more you learn about it, the more interesting it gets. I don't think most people who dismiss it as a bubble and basically a joke really understand what it's all about.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Rh1234 on December 17, 2017, 05:50:01 PM
How will you pay capital gains on that profit?  I havenít seeen how people will be claiming this income on their taxes.
[/quote]

It's called Schedule D.

2017 Instructions for Schedule D - IRS.gov
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sd.pdf

I suppose it's possible that there are no reporting requirements for the exchanges (yet), but I wouldn't bet future tax penalties applied retroactively on the IRS closing their eyes to the potential for tax evasion, if in fact they haven't acted already.

https://news.bitcoin.com/4-apps-helping-bitcoiners-with-tax-compliance/
Quote
Not much is certain when it comes to Bitcoin tax law. What is for sure: Bitcoin gains are taxable. Income, no matter if it is in national currency or digital currency, is taxable unless the IRS states differently. Indeed, U.S. citizens could be liable for taxes on their trading, holding, spending, mining, gifting, tipping, and donating of bitcoins.

To the OP:

Bitcoin profits: $0.00.  No shame and no regret.

A hearty yippee, kudos, and congratulations, to those less timid than I, who were able to grab the brass ring on this.  My only wish is that your good fortune continues.
[/quote]

Am I able to withdraw contributions without them being considered a short term capital gain?

Thanks for the help! Fascinating stuff
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ILikeDividends on December 17, 2017, 05:57:24 PM

Am I able to withdraw contributions without them being considered a short term capital gain?

Thanks for the help! Fascinating stuff
If you buy an asset (bitcoin, in this case) and then sell it for break-even, then you still have to report it on Schedule D, in order to "prove" that you don't owe any capital gains.  In that scenario, it's just an exercise in paperwork in order to cover your A$$, and remain compliant with the tax code.

If you sell it at a loss, then you should want to report it, anyway, so that you can offset other gains or income with the loss; which would reduce your overall tax burden.

If you sell it for even a $1.00 gain, then the IRS wants their cut.  Period.

Long story short, the IRS doesn't care whether you made a gain, a loss, or broke even.  They're just kind of sticklers in insisting that you report it.  Their specialty, apart from collecting taxes, is assessing penalties, and then collecting interest on those penalties (even after they agree you never owed those penalties -- yes they have assessed interest on non-payment of penalties they agreed I never owed, but that's another story).
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Rh1234 on December 17, 2017, 06:39:19 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

So it constitutes as a break even if the USD that I pull out is not > what I contributed correct?

Guess what I mean is... is it still a break even if current value btc is > what I bought it for, when I would now be withdrawing a fraction of a btc to = the initial investment.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ILikeDividends on December 17, 2017, 06:49:02 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

So it constitutes as a break even if the USD that I pull out is not > what I contributed correct?

Guess what I mean is... is it still a break even if current value btc is > what I bought it for, when I would now be withdrawing a fraction of a btc to = the initial investment.
If you bought 100 shares of Amazon, and then sold 10 shares later (regardless of whether you recouped your original full investment, or not), then yes, you still need to report gains, losses, or break-even, on the 10 shares you closed out.

Buying a stake in bitcoin, and then later selling something less than that whole stake, would amount to the same thing.  You still need to report capital gains or losses on that part of the position that you closed out.

I.e., if you spent $100 on one bitcoin, and then sold 10% of that stake for $100, then your cost basis for the 10% you sold would be $10 (10% of the original stake), and your profit would be a $90 capital gain ($100 proceeds minus a $10 cost basis).  In that same scenario, you could deduct 10% of the fees to buy that one bitcoin, and also deduct 100% of the fees to sell 10% of it; reducing your gain by those fees.  10% of the fees to open the position would be added to the cost basis, and 100% of the fees to close that portion of the position would be deducted from your proceeds of the sale.

If you don't close any part of the position, then there is no gain or loss, and so there is nothing to report.  You realize a reportable gain or loss only when you close a full or partial position.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: TreeTired on December 17, 2017, 07:10:39 PM
I opened a Coinbase account right before Thanksgiving (less than 1 month ago) and bought some Bitcoin and I am up over 100% since then!!  I bought $100 worth with my credit card and they gave me $10 free as a bonus! Thought about selling half ($100) to take out my original investment.... but why bother?  I think I own something like .0128 bitcoin.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: CanuckExpat on December 17, 2017, 10:34:06 PM
Don't know if ashamed, so much as bemused. And my gains are relatively trivial: bought $100 US some time ago (also got the free $10 (https://www.coinbase.com/join/5925a32688fc15120c64f4c6)) mainly for idle curiosity.

My holdings are apparently worth $1,000 and change now, I'm sure it changes daily. So all in amount I can lose, and enough that I can't be bothered selling. So guess I will continue holding for no real reason
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: asosharp on December 18, 2017, 01:49:05 AM
I hold some cryptocurrency.

I bought Bitcoin and sold it when it was at a 35% upswing, then I bought some more. Lol Buyers remorse. But it was an interesting learning curve and I did not put that much into it anyway.

I also put some money in ETH, LTC, and XRP.

I should have bought more of XRP, I only bought $100 worth. It more than tripled within 2 days cos there was some crazy rumour going around that last Friday some amazing thing would happen but I knew it was false. I sold my XRP (ripple) and I still hold the rest cos it's now 'free' since I got my money back.

Personally I do think that the bubble will burst, I just don't know when.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: surfhb on December 18, 2017, 09:38:40 AM
The price is extremely volatile and yes, you could lose all your money, and I'm not telling anyone to buy it. But the shaming and negativity about it on here seems to be discrediting its worth altogether. Bitcoin, and the other cryptos (some in particular) are really cool and the more you learn about it, the more interesting it gets. I don't think most people who dismiss it as a bubble and basically a joke really understand what it's all about.

Well, at the rate we're going Bitcoin's worth will be more than the GDP of the US in less than 2 years..... so at some point it will need to correct.    Id would imagine it will be significant too ;)   Bitcoin is only one example.

I have no doubt blockchain technology will have significant part of this world but thats not what were talking about.  I think youre confusing shame and negativity with people who have lived through several ups and downs of the market for several decades.   Long time investors have seen this shit before and have learned to steer clear of such speculation with their hard earned dollars. 

Slow, steady and nothing is earned at a cost is what the last 2 financial booms and busts have taught me.     
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: TheAnonOne on December 18, 2017, 10:48:54 AM
I dropped around $20,000 into it back right after the current run-up

LTC- trippled (had 1500 in it)
BTC- up a bit

So far at 25 to 27k (this can change in literally minutes)

I have $350,000 in VTSAX during a good bull month its still unlikely to clear $7,000 in gains (though it has happened)

I simply count the original cost in my NW (IE: 20k). If it tripples/doubles/ whatever for long enough, I will adjust my accounting up to around 75% of the current value.

----------------------------------

I am holding for the "What If" factor. "What If" LTC/BTC/ETH jump another 10 to 40 times over the next 5 years and FIRE me a good year or two earlier? If I lose it all, 20k will set me back around 2 months. Seems like a good trade-off.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: PizzaSteve on December 18, 2017, 10:53:19 AM
As i mentioned in the 4% thread, indexing is only one path to FIRE.  Good bets on jobs, stocks, coins, real estate, and starting a successful business all can work, with varying degrees of odds and luck involved.

Always a bit put off by the fanatical focus on home leverage and indexed stocks.  Sure it is a great strategy, but not the only one and perhaps not even the best one for some folks.  A govt pension or bitcoins may be your chosen path and more power to you, should you succeed.  I want everyone to enjoy FIRE and live within their means.

Good karma to all.  If you are feeling ashamed, perhaps someone is being a bully and you should recognize the issues are within them, not you.  Its your life, your money, your choices. 

Note:  I have followed crypo currencies for decades, but own none.  Sort of a shame, but that was my choice.  Made several hundred k on individual stocks with cryptocurrency upside.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: GGNoob on December 18, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
I got in around early October. Over the next couple of months I "invested" about $12k. I have since withdrawn the $12k and about $11k more in gains. Now I'm just holding a small fraction of a Bitcoin, and 1 of each Ethereum and Litecoin.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: asosharp on December 18, 2017, 08:55:21 PM
I got in around early October. Over the next couple of months I "invested" about $12k. I have since withdrawn the $12k and about $11k more in gains. Now I'm just holding a small fraction of a Bitcoin, and 1 of each Ethereum and Litecoin.

Great job!

I'm way too chicken to put in a large chunk of money (for me $12k is large).

I also read this morning that one of the founders of Bitcoin.com sold Bitcoin saying that they should move to BCH (Bitcoin Cash) as Bitcoin itself is too old, out of date, etc.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: GGNoob on December 19, 2017, 08:35:30 AM
I got in around early October. Over the next couple of months I "invested" about $12k. I have since withdrawn the $12k and about $11k more in gains. Now I'm just holding a small fraction of a Bitcoin, and 1 of each Ethereum and Litecoin.

Great job!

I'm way too chicken to put in a large chunk of money (for me $12k is large).

I also read this morning that one of the founders of Bitcoin.com sold Bitcoin saying that they should move to BCH (Bitcoin Cash) as Bitcoin itself is too old, out of date, etc.

I started smaller with the idea of keeping cyrptos as part of my asset allocation. I started with a small allocation but as it grew, I allowed the allocation goal to change and added a bit more. But then it kinda scared me because if it went down the same way it recently went up, I'd be throwing money in to rebalance. So I realized this wasn't for me and I'll just hold a little for fun.

FYI, Bitcoin.org is the official Bitcoin website. Bitcion.com is related to Bitcoin Cash.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: maizeman on December 19, 2017, 09:19:35 AM
I have some crypto from both a mining experiment and leftover change from a purchase back in the <$100 days. It's been fun to watch it run up, but like GGNoob I wouldn't assign it a fixed weight in my portfolio.

Is anyone here arguing that they would rebalance into bitcoin or other cyptocurrencies when the price was falling? (If so I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.)
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: PDXTabs on December 19, 2017, 09:41:06 AM
A year from now, I suspect you'll hear about as much "bitcoin" talk as you heard ".com" talk in 2001 The deafening silence a year after the "this time it's different!" bubble pops and all the paper millionaires are back driving cabs again (well, maybe driving Uber, that's the one part of this mania that really is different than the last one).

I think a lot about this. I have mined 2.8 ETH, and expect my hardware to last at least another 30 months. I'm also happy to hold onto the ETH for the next 12 years (selling it now would trigger short term capital gains).

So, is cryptocurrency going to be like the .coms where there was a bubble, and a crash, and now e-commerce is commonplace and amazon.com is eating the world? And if so, how do I diversify my cryptocurrency holdings so that in 12 years (the earliest that I can retire) I have a nice portfolio?

Also, I max out my 401k in equities, so this is all a fun side game really.

EDIT - In the worst case, I can always sell my ETH at a loss to offset other gains (or even $3K/year of ordinary income).
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: maizeman on December 19, 2017, 10:23:08 AM
EDIT - In the worst case, I can always sell my ETH at a loss to offset other gains (or even $3K/year of ordinary income).

Can you claim a greater than $0 cost basis for currency that was mined rather than purchased directly?
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: PDXTabs on December 19, 2017, 10:28:44 AM
Can you claim a greater than $0 cost basis for currency that was mined rather than purchased directly?

Yes, because you get to pay ordinary income tax on all mining shares acquired based on their value the day you acquired them. Otherwise, you are committing tax fraud (which I won't do). This is exactly the same as if your employer gave you a share of stock. Also, because you pay ordinary self employed income tax on mining, AFAIK, you get to put 25% of your mining profits into a SEP IRA. Also also, because you are paying taxes you get to write off all mining related expenses (hardware, electricity, internet).

https://bitcoin.tax/blog/filing-your-bitcoin-taxes-income-spending-mining/ (https://bitcoin.tax/blog/filing-your-bitcoin-taxes-income-spending-mining/)
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: maizeman on December 19, 2017, 10:34:30 AM
Good to know, thanks!
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Dago on December 19, 2017, 01:05:00 PM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: sherr on December 19, 2017, 01:21:32 PM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.

If that's true you should get your 1.5M out too. That's more than enough to live comfortably on for the rest of your life. What are you waiting for, more? If I were you I'd get out while I could.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Dago on December 19, 2017, 01:27:52 PM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.

If that's true you should get your 1.5M out too. That's more than enough to live comfortably on for the rest of your life. What are you waiting for, more? If I were you I'd get out while I could.

In most cases your advises are sound and should be followed. Here is why I do not sell  :
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Syonyk on December 19, 2017, 01:29:12 PM
In most cases your advises are sound and should be followed. Here is why I do not sell  :
  • I believe in crypto-currencies. I did not buy in only, or even mostly, to become rich ; I did because I believe in their potential to change positively the world.
  • I live, and have always lived, in a place where 1.5M is not enough to live for the rest of my life

Ok.  So pull $500k, or $1M out.

If bitcoin goes to the moon, your remaining holdings will still be worth an awful lot of money.

If bitcoin goes to the floor, you'll have extracted some rather significant value out of your investment.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ChpBstrd on December 19, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.
Comgratulations!

So when will you get out? I, personally, would have a hard time living with myself if I won the bubble lottery and then held on too long and ended up having to go back to the rat race. I also have memories of dot-com millionaires who became thousanaires within a matter of months. I'm guessing the same constitution and patience that have allowed you to hang on this long might carry you over the edge. What next, and how to decide?
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: GGNoob on December 19, 2017, 01:48:41 PM
Is anyone here arguing that they would rebalance into bitcoin or other cyptocurrencies when the price was falling? (If so I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.)

So that was actually my goal originally. Hold about 5% of my portfolio in crypto (I actually let it work it's way up to 10% at one point) and then rebalance as needed. My investing strategy is to rebalance with my 457 contributions monthly and rebalance at a 5% drift. So I cashed out Bitcoin as the price rose and I hit that 5% drift, allowing me to toss that money into my stock ETFs instead. But when the price of Bitcoin went up to its recent highs, it scared me that if it went down and never came back up, I'd be tossing money in to rebalance and could lose a lot more than that 5% of my allocation as I keep tossing more money in.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Cassie on December 19, 2017, 02:16:27 PM
We just cashed out 60k in bitcoin and hung onto a small amount. A bird in the hand.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: ketchup on December 19, 2017, 02:35:51 PM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.
Comgratulations!

So when will you get out? I, personally, would have a hard time living with myself if I won the bubble lottery and then held on too long and ended up having to go back to the rat race. I also have memories of dot-com millionaires who became thousanaires within a matter of months. I'm guessing the same constitution and patience that have allowed you to hang on this long might carry you over the edge. What next, and how to decide?
Yeah, holy shit.  I'd probably cash out a cool $1M.  Even if you don't think $1.5M isn't "enough" where you live, it's still $1.5M closer to "enough."
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Dago on December 20, 2017, 12:24:21 AM
Thank you all for your nice words and good advises.

I have cashed out 350k and would still be happy if the market collapsed. Of course one could regret not having cashed out 1M but then one could also regret cashing out if Bitcoin continues its raise. I have to digest what you said and might reconsider, maybe cashing out a bit more. The Christmas break will help with taking distance and relaxing and taking wise decisions (hopefully !).

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: steveo on December 20, 2017, 06:23:25 AM
Well, I am actually a bit ashamed and disturbed by the gains I made.

I invested 1000$ in 2011 and 4000$ in 2013, all in bitcoins. I did not sell and went through the bubbles and crises. I subsequently invested in a few other cryptos, in particular I crowdfunded ethereum. I have cashed out 350k this year and still have 1.5M on paper. It always was a funny dream, saying "what if Bitcoin becomes worth a lot?" ; but never truly believing it.

Well done for making that much money. I would pull out all the paper profits. I would look on your money not as the potential to become a multi-millionaire but the ability to fund your life from this day forward. Money to me isn't something to keep score with but it is something to ensure that you can live a good life. Money is just a tool.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: sherr on December 20, 2017, 06:56:55 AM
  • I believe in crypto-currencies. I did not buy in only, or even mostly, to become rich ; I did because I believe in their potential to change positively the world.

Not to mention that I don't think this reason makes any sense. Cryptocurrencies may positively change the world, but you in particular holding a bunch of them won't make any difference at all.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: talltexan on December 20, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
Thank you all for your nice words and good advises.

I have cashed out 350k and would still be happy if the market collapsed. Of course one could regret not having cashed out 1M but then one could also regret cashing out if Bitcoin continues its raise. I have to digest what you said and might reconsider, maybe cashing out a bit more. The Christmas break will help with taking distance and relaxing and taking wise decisions (hopefully !).

Thanks again!

I--frankly--wonder what controls the financial system starts putting on you when you're moving around amounts of money like this. Did the $350,000 go into a checking account? Did your bank start asking any questions about where this money came from? What tax implications (Federal and State) do you think you will have to manage?

Lots of people seem ready to give you advice, Dago, but you already come across as very balanced in moving forward with this situation.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: CanuckExpat on December 20, 2017, 09:17:48 AM
Thank you all for your nice words and good advises.

I have cashed out 350k and would still be happy if the market collapsed. Of course one could regret not having cashed out 1M but then one could also regret cashing out if Bitcoin continues its raise. I have to digest what you said and might reconsider, maybe cashing out a bit more. The Christmas break will help with taking distance and relaxing and taking wise decisions (hopefully !).

Thanks again!

One question you can ask yourself: if you held no crypto currency, would you buy $1 million worth of bitcoin at the current prices? If the answer is yes, then you should hold. If the answer is no, you should consider selling your holdings.

(take into account transaction costs and taxes)
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: talltexan on December 20, 2017, 11:30:50 AM
Could it be that Dago asked zhimself: with what I know today, would I buy $1,400,000 worth of bitcoin today?

No.

Alright, let's move 1/4 of that into other assets.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Scandium on December 20, 2017, 02:22:14 PM
I bought $4 of etherium and forgot about it. It's now worth .... $11! Good return percentage wise, but I wasn't stupid/smart enough to put any serious money into it
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: phil22 on December 20, 2017, 05:20:33 PM
Thank you all for your nice words and good advises.

I have cashed out 350k and would still be happy if the market collapsed. Of course one could regret not having cashed out 1M but then one could also regret cashing out if Bitcoin continues its raise. I have to digest what you said and might reconsider, maybe cashing out a bit more. The Christmas break will help with taking distance and relaxing and taking wise decisions (hopefully !).

Thanks again!

One question you can ask yourself: if you held no crypto currency, would you buy $1 million worth of bitcoin at the current prices? If the answer is yes, then you should hold. If the answer is no, you should consider selling your holdings.

(take into account transaction costs and taxes)

there is also opportunity cost in selling your cryptos.  this is a new asset class and who knows what will happen over the next 10 or 20 years.

if you're uneasy about your gains on paper you could sell some to make a nice profit after taxes, and keep the rest.  on the other hand, if you don't need the money, and most of us on this forum aren't exactly strapped for cash, just hold.
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: CanuckExpat on December 20, 2017, 05:28:38 PM
Thank you all for your nice words and good advises.

I have cashed out 350k and would still be happy if the market collapsed. Of course one could regret not having cashed out 1M but then one could also regret cashing out if Bitcoin continues its raise. I have to digest what you said and might reconsider, maybe cashing out a bit more. The Christmas break will help with taking distance and relaxing and taking wise decisions (hopefully !).

Thanks again!

One question you can ask yourself: if you held no crypto currency, would you buy $1 million worth of bitcoin at the current prices? If the answer is yes, then you should hold. If the answer is no, you should consider selling your holdings.

(take into account transaction costs and taxes)

there is also opportunity cost in selling your cryptos.  this is a new asset class and who knows what will happen over the next 10 or 20 years.


That opportunity cost also exists for someone who holds cash, or stocks, or bonds. There is nothing special about crypto that you already hold (aside from taxes and transaction cost).

There is a mental aspect: if you want regret miniization, that's fine, but admit to yourself it's psychological
Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: phil22 on December 20, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
One question you can ask yourself: if you held no crypto currency, would you buy $1 million worth of bitcoin at the current prices? If the answer is yes, then you should hold. If the answer is no, you should consider selling your holdings.

there is also opportunity cost in selling your cryptos.  this is a new asset class and who knows what will happen over the next 10 or 20 years.

That opportunity cost also exists for someone who holds cash, or stocks, or bonds. There is nothing special about crypto that you already hold (aside from taxes and transaction cost).

There is a mental aspect: if you want regret miniization, that's fine, but admit to yourself it's psychological

you're not considering diversification.  cash, stocks, bonds, real estate, etc., are not new asset classes.  and people on this forum are probably amassing tons of those already.

Title: Re: Anyone else ashamed to admit... crypto gains?
Post by: Finallyunderstand on December 22, 2017, 09:09:02 AM
OP here. 

I cashed out remaining $30k I still had in there this morning.  The downward slide today scared me.  I can't imagine what the poster above with $1.5million is thinking today.  Strong chance it's under $1million now. 

I may get back in because it's fun but for now I'm happy with my profits.  If I had sold 2 days ago that $30k was $40k.  Oh well.  Up a lot from original investment but still "lost" from the top.  Can't be perfect. 

The funny thing is I made double what I made in the market this year with 5% of the investment amount.  Crazy.