Author Topic: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate  (Read 2921 times)

Must_ache

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4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« on: March 16, 2025, 10:38:52 PM »
The Bengen 4% Study is archaic.  Toss it in the trash. 
This study looks at 7 asset classes from 10 countries since 1970 and provides the portfolio that would have allowed a 4.44% SWR in any of those 10 countries:

10% Domestic Stock
30% Foreign Stock
20% Domestic Bonds
10% Commodities
30% Gold

Fascinating article with lots of pictures worth 1,000 words or more.  A US-based portfolio would have achieved a 5.60% SWR with a different mix:
40% Domestic Stock
30% Domestic Bonds
30% Gold

Of course this is no guarantee of future performance.  This guy also was able to mimic Bengen's outcome as well.  Also try not to live somewhere where war breaks out...

Without gold, the best SWR you can dredge up is 3.60%  Foreign bonds will come to the rescue but they aren't as good.

50/50 Domestic Stocks and Bonds may have managed a 4.0% SWR in the US, but globally it would have been 1.85%.

https://portfoliocharts.com/2024/04/01/what-global-withdrawal-rates-teach-us-about-ideal-retirement-portfolios/#more-70357
« Last Edit: March 16, 2025, 10:57:32 PM by Must_ache »

jeroly

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2025, 05:14:08 AM »
Well talk about dumb articles...

You couldn't legally own gold as an American in 1970.  So the returns are based on a juiced up gold return using the fixed $35 per ounce price instead of the real rate which was likely something like $400. Voila! Great returns.

SeattleCPA

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2025, 05:31:41 AM »
Tyler did an outstanding job with PortfolioCharts. And for thinking graphically about asset allocation? Wow, it is so cool. I love it!

However, I'm pretty sure it is too optimistic in the safe withdrawal rates it predicts.

Why I say that: You can backtest a handful of the portfolios PortfolioCharts estimates SWRs for using much longer histories if you use something like cFireSim or FireCalc. And in all the cases I've looked at, PortfolioCharts' SWRs that are too high when you look at actual data from that longer stretch of history.

Bottomline: It's just too small a sample to only look back to 1970. (The worst-case scenario for US stocks for example was to start your retirement in 1966.)


vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2025, 05:35:26 AM »
Well talk about dumb articles...

You couldn't legally own gold as an American in 1970.  So the returns are based on a juiced up gold return using the fixed $35 per ounce price instead of the real rate which was likely something like $400. Voila! Great returns.

You couldn't own index funds before they were invented, either, but in any case the backtests are from the 1970 period onwards.

The article and his work on Global Withdrawal Rates is very much an update of his previous article on the 3 key ingredients of the most efficient portfolios here
https://portfoliocharts.com/2021/12/16/three-secret-ingredients-of-the-most-efficient-portfolios/

and discussed here
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/psa-read-tyler-of-portfolio-charts'-recent-blog-post-on-portfolio-construction/

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2025, 05:39:50 AM »
Tyler did an outstanding job with PortfolioCharts. And for thinking graphically about asset allocation? Wow, it is so cool. I love it!

However, I'm pretty sure it is too optimistic in the safe withdrawal rates it predicts.

Why I say that: You can backtest a handful of the portfolios PortfolioCharts estimates SWRs for using much longer histories if you use something like cFireSim or FireCalc. And in all the cases I've looked at, PortfolioCharts' SWRs that are too high when you look at actual data from that longer stretch of history.

Bottomline: It's just too small a sample to only look back to 1970. (The worst-case scenario for US stocks for example was to start your retirement in 1966.)

I agree that it may change the numbers, but I don't think it would change the conclusions and therefore the validity of the testing... that most well-balanced portfolios support the highest withdrawal rates. 
In an alternative universe where Bretton Woods never happened and Gold was freely traded throughout, you would probably find the Global SWR portfolio's best is still better than everything else, but may only have supported 4.1% or 4.2% rather than its verified4.4% since 1970.

ChpBstrd

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2025, 07:28:21 AM »
Well talk about dumb articles...

You couldn't legally own gold as an American in 1970.  So the returns are based on a juiced up gold return using the fixed $35 per ounce price instead of the real rate which was likely something like $400. Voila! Great returns.
Yea, these articles seem to sprout every year, just like the daffodils. Call me skeptical that there was ever a time when one ounce gold bars were being sold to investors for two tanks of gasoline in a 1970 Chevy Nova, or a week or two of groceries. Presumably the miners who pulverized an entire mountain to find that amount of gold were paid enough to make it worth their while. I suppose 24k jewelry was sold alongside bubble gum at the Five and Dime.

But even if we do accept these prices as truth, maybe it is more valid for forward-looking projections to start the series in 1980 or so, several years after the end of the gold standard, and at a time when it actually was possible for investors with connections to locate and purchase physical gold. Randomly select from modern returns to generate monte carlo simulations for backtesting. But yea, making decisions based on $35 gold is like all the talk I hear about ten-cent bitcoins back in the day as a justification for paying $90,000 now.

Thinking like that just leads you to the conclusion to buy Microsoft for your stock allocation, because it was a great deal in '82.

jeroly

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2025, 02:20:27 AM »
Well talk about dumb articles...

You couldn't legally own gold as an American in 1970.  So the returns are based on a juiced up gold return using the fixed $35 per ounce price instead of the real rate which was likely something like $400. Voila! Great returns.
Yea, these articles seem to sprout every year, just like the daffodils. Call me skeptical that there was ever a time when one ounce gold bars were being sold to investors for two tanks of gasoline in a 1970 Chevy Nova, or a week or two of groceries. Presumably the miners who pulverized an entire mountain to find that amount of gold were paid enough to make it worth their while. I suppose 24k jewelry was sold alongside bubble gum at the Five and Dime.

But even if we do accept these prices as truth, maybe it is more valid for forward-looking projections to start the series in 1980 or so, several years after the end of the gold standard, and at a time when it actually was possible for investors with connections to locate and purchase physical gold. Randomly select from modern returns to generate monte carlo simulations for backtesting. But yea, making decisions based on $35 gold is like all the talk I hear about ten-cent bitcoins back in the day as a justification for paying $90,000 now.

Thinking like that just leads you to the conclusion to buy Microsoft for your stock allocation, because it was a great deal in '82.

Bitcoin may or may not be as good an "investment" today as it was when it was 10 cents (my guess is it isn't) but you are at least comparing a possible current "investment" to something you could have done in the past.

Microsoft may or may not be as good an investment as it was in '82 (my guess is it isn't) but you are at least comparing a possible current investment to something you could have done in the past.

While you couldn't have literally bought an index fund in '70, with a big enough portfolio you could have simulated it very closely with low expense ratios, and with a moderate portfolio you could have simulated it closely with ratios similar to those postulated in the Trinity study. Similarly for bond funds. So while you can't compare the exact same potential investment over the entire time period you can come close.

On the other hand you were legally prohibited from owning gold in the US until 1975 I believe.  So it's operating under two false premises - the lure of (juiced-up) past performance, plus the unreasonable postulate that you could have made this (illegal) investment.

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2025, 04:24:11 AM »
But even if we do accept these prices as truth, maybe it is more valid for forward-looking projections to start the series in 1980 or so, several years after the end of the gold standard, and at a time when it actually was possible for investors with connections to locate and purchase physical gold. Randomly select from modern returns to generate monte carlo simulations for backtesting. But yea, making decisions based on $35 gold is like all the talk I hear about ten-cent bitcoins back in the day as a justification for paying $90,000 now.

I've addressed this several times - the critical point to test if you want to try discrediting any asset is from it's major peaks - not from major bottoms.   

Therefore if you are want to find the weakness in holding gold as part of a portfolio the critical year to cover in backtests are 1980-81 during most destructive phase of the gold bear market, not from 1970.

Same for any asset.  If you want to test the weakness in stocks the critical dates to make sure you backtest for starting in 1968-69 and 2000, not 1982 or 2003.

If you believe gold is going to do worse from 2025-2055 than it did from 1980-2010 then by all means you have a valid basis on which to critique the gold allocation in the portfolio..


Posting this interview between PortfolioCharts & Pensioncraft again specifcally about this portfolio

https://many-happy-returns.captivate.fm/episode/building-a-bulletproof-retirement-portfolio
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 04:35:32 AM by vand »

SeattleCPA

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2025, 05:06:07 AM »
Tyler did an outstanding job with PortfolioCharts. And for thinking graphically about asset allocation? Wow, it is so cool. I love it!

However, I'm pretty sure it is too optimistic in the safe withdrawal rates it predicts.

Why I say that: You can backtest a handful of the portfolios PortfolioCharts estimates SWRs for using much longer histories if you use something like cFireSim or FireCalc. And in all the cases I've looked at, PortfolioCharts' SWRs that are too high when you look at actual data from that longer stretch of history.

Bottomline: It's just too small a sample to only look back to 1970. (The worst-case scenario for US stocks for example was to start your retirement in 1966.)

I agree that it may change the numbers, but I don't think it would change the conclusions and therefore the validity of the testing... that most well-balanced portfolios support the highest withdrawal rates. 
In an alternative universe where Bretton Woods never happened and Gold was freely traded throughout, you would probably find the Global SWR portfolio's best is still better than everything else, but may only have supported 4.1% or 4.2% rather than its verified4.4% since 1970.

I think PortfolioCharts is coming in quite a bit higher than .3% or .2%.

But we're in agreement (it sounds like) that modern portfolio theory lets a person construct a "safer" portfolio. And a "safer" portfolio should support higher SWRs.

JAYSLOL

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2025, 11:03:21 AM »
Well talk about dumb articles...

You couldn't legally own gold as an American in 1970.  So the returns are based on a juiced up gold return using the fixed $35 per ounce price instead of the real rate which was likely something like $400. Voila! Great returns.

You couldn't own index funds before they were invented, either, but in any case the backtests are from the 1970 period onwards.


Yeah, but I doubt that the creation of index funds caused a spike in the stock market in any significant sense compared to the spike of allowing gold to be privately invested in did.

reeshau

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2025, 03:37:42 PM »
I don't think this study is as revolutionary as you think.  1970 isn't that long ago, in 30-year chunks.  More importantly, it misses the year that defined SAFEMAX for Bengen, 1966.  I don't think the data is far off, if you shrunk Bengen's study data start to 1970.  (See below)

The 4% rule isn't a smooth thing.  Your actual safe withdrawal rate could be 8%, if you were lucky in your retirement.  It's just that you don't know until the end if you were right.  So, the conservative answer is the worst case.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2025, 07:57:45 AM by reeshau »

SeattleCPA

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2025, 06:34:46 AM »
I don't think this study is as revolutionary as you think.  1970 isn't that long ago, in 30-year chunks.  More importantly, it misses the year that defined SAFEMAX for Bengen, 1966.  I don't think the data is far off, if you shrunk Bengen's study data start o 1970.  (See below)

The 4% rule isn't a smooth thing.  Your actual safe withdrawal rate could be 8%, if you were lucky in your retirement.  It's just that you don't know until the end if you were right.  So, the conservative answer is the worst case.

Exactly. This is the problem with Portfolio Charts with its 50 years of data.  (So not even a full life-time for an individual.) And also a problem with FireCalc and cFiresim too. People look at 150 years of history. So generalize based on basically a sample size of 2 or 3.

In a sense, the generalization might be "US stocks work great as long as US is on winning side in WWII and doesn't lose Cold War."

ChpBstrd

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2025, 07:56:51 AM »
I don't think this study is as revolutionary as you think.  1970 isn't that long ago, in 30-year chunks.  More importantly, it misses the year that defined SAFEMAX for Bengen, 1966.  I don't think the data is far off, if you shrunk Bengen's study data start o 1970.  (See below)

The 4% rule isn't a smooth thing.  Your actual safe withdrawal rate could be 8%, if you were lucky in your retirement.  It's just that you don't know until the end if you were right.  So, the conservative answer is the worst case.
Exactly. This is the problem with Portfolio Charts with its 50 years of data.  (So not even a full life-time for an individual.) And also a problem with FireCalc and cFiresim too. People look at 150 years of history. So generalize based on basically a sample size of 2 or 3.

In a sense, the generalization might be "US stocks work great as long as US is on winning side in WWII and doesn't lose Cold War."
It's a perennial observation on this board that click-to-buy stock investing is a today's-generation phenomenon, and retirement itself is only a feature of the last 70-80 years. Middle-class retirement in the U.S. only became a thing after the beginning of Social Security in 1940. Stocks and mutual funds only became available to middle class people in the 1970s, with massive front end loads, commissions, and expense ratios that none of us today would accept, enduring until the 1990s*. Women were generally forced into lifelong financial dependency until the mid 1970s, when they were finally allowed to open their own accounts and work a wider range of jobs.

Yes, there were private pensions in mid-20th century America, but they generally required a "full retirement age" and are fundamentally different than what we talk about when we buy ETFs through our phone apps. Plus, private sector or union pensions are all but gone now, so most of the examples we are aware of (e.g. our grandparents or parents' retirements) are based on a different model than we can follow. And now, the future of Social Security is in doubt.

Another observation: Retirement/FIRE was a fantasy in most countries during most of the 20th century. Argentina, for instance, started the 20th century with a GDP that was 70% of the U.S's, but due to poor political decisions and instability they ended the century in poverty. Similarly, Brazil and Mexico spent the century wallowing in corruption and failing to educate their children or invest in R&D, falling behind on development and growth. Western Europe in the 1900s contained the only countries that would today meet our definition of "developed" but devastating wars and/or communism would end their prosperity for generations - though at least they have underfunded and shaky old-age pensions.

We're left with a picture of early retirement that has only ever been available to people caught within a very specific confluence of culture, politics, and luck. The globalist assumptions underpinning the 4% rule - that world markets were converging on the US-20th-century model of regulated capitalism, honest government, and free trade - seems in doubt. Thus, I'm casting a wary eye on the 50-year projections based on past performance, as U.S. culture shifts toward chaos, as the politics shift toward authoritarian-Idiocracy, and as we press our luck with wars, deficits, and the national debt. Do we really have a brighter future than Argentina circa 1920 or Germany circa 1900 or Mexico circa 1950? It seems like a bold claim, given the history of how fragile the whole concept is. 

*I've never heard of a FIRE calculator that factored in the roughly 1% one-way transaction costs that a person in the mid-20th century would have had to pay if they were periodically investing a fraction of their paycheck into stocks, or living off of their assets in retirement. The commissions themselves lowered stock valuations, which is why PE ratios looked so much better in the past, and which is why stock returns look so much better in the past than what investors actually experienced.

reeshau

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2025, 08:05:25 AM »
*I've never heard of a FIRE calculator that factored in the roughly 1% one-way transaction costs that a person in the mid-20th century would have had to pay if they were periodically investing a fraction of their paycheck into stocks, or living off of their assets in retirement. The commissions themselves lowered stock valuations, which is why PE ratios looked so much better in the past, and which is why stock returns look so much better in the past than what investors actually experienced.

As an aside, when considering performance in different countries:  Ireland, today, has a 1% commission on trades.  Ended my interest in investing locally when I lived there, really quickly.

Also, even defined contribution plans in Europe are run by insurers.  My contributions were reported in the Zurich online tool as "premiums," because that was their data model.  There is no Fidelity, or Fidelity-like company.

While I would point out that traditional pension plans dis invest in order to pay out their pension obligations, I think the factors you list go a long way to explaining the underperformance of European markets.

SeattleCPA

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2025, 08:07:59 AM »
Regarding transaction costs, you can set those in cFireSim using the Fees box which appears on the home page. (The default expense rate is .18% but to be historically accurate you'd want to be way higher than that.)

In FireCalc, you can do the same thing with the How much are you paying... box which appears on the Your Portfolio tab. (Again the default expense rate is .18%.)

BTW the other reality here, which basically people don't talk about is, you wouldn't have been able to economically construct a very diversified portfolio. Nothing like the S&P 500 for example. Which means your volatility would have been higher. And your and my SWR rate lower.

Telecaster

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2025, 04:49:20 PM »
The Bengen 4% Study is archaic.  Toss it in the trash. 

Kids these days.  Bengen is the OG.    All these studies are just expanding on his original work.   

Implying the SWR is known to two decimal point is a precision that does not exist in the real world.   

What we do know is that all these SWR studies converge around a single number, about 4%.   


vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2025, 02:30:51 AM »
What we do know is that all these SWR studies converge around a single number, about 4%.

Only if you self limit to the same two asset classes in the US - a fairly narrow sample range in the universe of testable scenarios.


Even Bengen himself has revised his "rule" up to 4.5% more recently just based on the ongoing data with stocks and bonds only. Very improbable that it cannot further be improved with the range of asset classes that can now be owned cheaply and easily.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2025, 02:34:24 AM by vand »

Telecaster

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2025, 10:11:58 AM »
Even Bengen himself has revised his "rule" up to 4.5% more recently just based on the ongoing data with stocks and bonds only. Very improbable that it cannot further be improved with the range of asset classes that can now be owned cheaply and easily.

Yes, based on Kitces work using CAPE to project forward returns.  On the other hand, Morningstar calculated a 3.7% SWR based on forward returns.   Different studies using different methodologies yield different results as you'd expect, but they all converge around 4%.   


https://www.morningstar.com/lp/the-state-of-retirement-income

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2025, 01:13:35 PM »
Even Bengen himself has revised his "rule" up to 4.5% more recently just based on the ongoing data with stocks and bonds only. Very improbable that it cannot further be improved with the range of asset classes that can now be owned cheaply and easily.

Yes, based on Kitces work using CAPE to project forward returns.  On the other hand, Morningstar calculated a 3.7% SWR based on forward returns.   Different studies using different methodologies yield different results as you'd expect, but they all converge around 4%.   


https://www.morningstar.com/lp/the-state-of-retirement-income

Morningstar's "work" is hopelessly limited, considering only US stocks/bonds to come up with their baseline SWR numbers each year; they advised as low as 3.3% as recently as 2021. 


While I don't necessarily disagree with them that 2021 was a start point from which SWRs would be stress tested in hindsight, I just think an institution like Morningstar has the means to provide so much more depth to their research than just regurgitating the most covered datasets that everyone else has already dissected to death.

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2025, 01:43:22 PM »

Morningstar's "work" is hopelessly limited, considering only US stocks/bonds to come up with their baseline SWR numbers each year; they advised as low as 3.3% as recently as 2021.

That's not true, their model portfolios include foreign stocks and bonds as well, and they point out the historical SWR of that mix was higher than their projected SWR.


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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2025, 06:40:21 AM »
Regarding transaction costs, you can set those in cFireSim using the Fees box which appears on the home page. (The default expense rate is .18% but to be historically accurate you'd want to be way higher than that.)

In FireCalc, you can do the same thing with the How much are you paying... box which appears on the Your Portfolio tab. (Again the default expense rate is .18%.)

BTW the other reality here, which basically people don't talk about is, you wouldn't have been able to economically construct a very diversified portfolio. Nothing like the S&P 500 for example. Which means your volatility would have been higher. And your and my SWR rate lower.
Good points @SeattleCPA . We can back into historically accurate transaction costs by just pretending they are expense ratios.

Still, the tools are just going to subtract those costs annually. The mid-20th-century worker still had nothing like the ability we have today, to divert a portion of our paycheck into a diversified portfolio of hundreds of stocks or bonds every two weeks, with almost no transaction costs. And then after reaching FIRE, the mid-century worker had no way to sell shares biweekly or monthly without incurring relatively huge transaction fees. Thus, they probably would have followed the incentives and done their saving in a bank account for a year or so, and invested it annually at best. After FIRE, they'd have made large annual or semi-annual withdraws, paying out the nose each time. This equates to less time in the market, and probably lowers returns by a decimal point or so.

So maybe we should be a bit aggressive with those estimated ERs, to also account for the damage accrued by forcing money to sit on the sidelines.

And also... this sort of situation is why stocks had an average PE ratio near 15 instead of near 30.

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2025, 07:29:06 AM »
Regarding transaction costs, you can set those in cFireSim using the Fees box which appears on the home page. (The default expense rate is .18% but to be historically accurate you'd want to be way higher than that.)

In FireCalc, you can do the same thing with the How much are you paying... box which appears on the Your Portfolio tab. (Again the default expense rate is .18%.)

BTW the other reality here, which basically people don't talk about is, you wouldn't have been able to economically construct a very diversified portfolio. Nothing like the S&P 500 for example. Which means your volatility would have been higher. And your and my SWR rate lower.
Good points @SeattleCPA . We can back into historically accurate transaction costs by just pretending they are expense ratios.

Still, the tools are just going to subtract those costs annually. The mid-20th-century worker still had nothing like the ability we have today, to divert a portion of our paycheck into a diversified portfolio of hundreds of stocks or bonds every two weeks, with almost no transaction costs. And then after reaching FIRE, the mid-century worker had no way to sell shares biweekly or monthly without incurring relatively huge transaction fees. Thus, they probably would have followed the incentives and done their saving in a bank account for a year or so, and invested it annually at best. After FIRE, they'd have made large annual or semi-annual withdraws, paying out the nose each time. This equates to less time in the market, and probably lowers returns by a decimal point or so.

So maybe we should be a bit aggressive with those estimated ERs, to also account for the damage accrued by forcing money to sit on the sidelines.

And also... this sort of situation is why stocks had an average PE ratio near 15 instead of near 30.

In cfiresim you can also limit the backtesting to any particular yearly range, so if you want to test under the same date range as Portfoliocharts just set the start year to 1970.

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2025, 07:46:19 AM »

Morningstar's "work" is hopelessly limited, considering only US stocks/bonds to come up with their baseline SWR numbers each year; they advised as low as 3.3% as recently as 2021.

That's not true, their model portfolios include foreign stocks and bonds as well, and they point out the historical SWR of that mix was higher than their projected SWR.

If you agree this is the work we are all citing then note their asset allocation of 40/60 stocks/bonds to produce this 3.7% swr.  I truly hope nobody is entering retirement with 60% of their assets in fixed income - an allocation that nobody who's done their homework on SWRs would advise, even just limiting to stocks/bonds.

https://www.morningstar.com/retirement/whats-safe-retirement-spending-rate-2025

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2025, 06:46:57 AM »
And also... this sort of situation is why stocks had an average PE ratio near 15 instead of near 30.

Exactly.

In a sense, the historical "look back" approach used by FireCalc, cFireSim, etc is really a best-case scenario that combines a bunch of optimistic assumptions.

I.e., someone assumes they average the returns that reflect the low valuations that existed for most of the last 150 years.

They probably assume they invested in the stock market of the country that became the world's superpower (by being on the right side in WWII and winning the cold war).

And they assume they could have used portfolio strategies and tactics for a century longer than they actually existed. (E.g., no-load, passive index funds and ETFs inside a tax-deferred retirement account.)

This is maybe a bad metaphor, but it's a bit like someone thinking that if they'd been migrating west in the 1800s? No covered wagon for them. They'd just have used their SUV.


mistymoney

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2025, 07:58:19 AM »

Morningstar's "work" is hopelessly limited, considering only US stocks/bonds to come up with their baseline SWR numbers each year; they advised as low as 3.3% as recently as 2021.

That's not true, their model portfolios include foreign stocks and bonds as well, and they point out the historical SWR of that mix was higher than their projected SWR.

If you agree this is the work we are all citing then note their asset allocation of 40/60 stocks/bonds to produce this 3.7% swr. I truly hope nobody is entering retirement with 60% of their assets in fixed income - an allocation that nobody who's done their homework on SWRs would advise, even just limiting to stocks/bonds.

https://www.morningstar.com/retirement/whats-safe-retirement-spending-rate-2025

ERN includes that in their simulations, and I don't think it is the worst of otucomes for the bond tent stuff. If you do enter retirement and spend down fixed income and/or rebalance into stocks over 10-20 years it doesn't seem the worst case for managing SORR.

And I have seen some over at bogleheads report that that is their AA. or even more fixed income. With bogleheads, that usually means the 40% in stocks is 2M. and maybe more. and then the 60% in fixed income provides enough interest and dividends to live on without cashing in any bonds. If in fact their fat pensions and social security aren't already paying for base living already.


reeshau

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2025, 09:26:10 AM »
And also... this sort of situation is why stocks had an average PE ratio near 15 instead of near 30.

Exactly.

In a sense, the historical "look back" approach used by FireCalc, cFireSim, etc is really a best-case scenario that combines a bunch of optimistic assumptions.

I.e., someone assumes they average the returns that reflect the low valuations that existed for most of the last 150 years.

They probably assume they invested in the stock market of the country that became the world's superpower (by being on the right side in WWII and winning the cold war).

And they assume they could have used portfolio strategies and tactics for a century longer than they actually existed. (E.g., no-load, passive index funds and ETFs inside a tax-deferred retirement account.)

This is maybe a bad metaphor, but it's a bit like someone thinking that if they'd been migrating west in the 1800s? No covered wagon for them. They'd just have used their SUV.

I fully agree with these points.  But there are other changes counter to that, too.  We didn't have services-based or digital businesses, who even as some of our largest companies can continue to grow at 20% or more annually.  We were not as globally connected (perhaps less so in the last few months) so the addressable markets for the listed companies is less.

Which is the more impactful?  Nobody knows.  But for sure, history is a less-than-perfect guide.

“History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes” – Mark Twain

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2025, 10:20:04 AM »

Morningstar's "work" is hopelessly limited, considering only US stocks/bonds to come up with their baseline SWR numbers each year; they advised as low as 3.3% as recently as 2021.

That's not true, their model portfolios include foreign stocks and bonds as well, and they point out the historical SWR of that mix was higher than their projected SWR.

If you agree this is the work we are all citing then note their asset allocation of 40/60 stocks/bonds to produce this 3.7% swr. I truly hope nobody is entering retirement with 60% of their assets in fixed income - an allocation that nobody who's done their homework on SWRs would advise, even just limiting to stocks/bonds.

https://www.morningstar.com/retirement/whats-safe-retirement-spending-rate-2025

ERN includes that in their simulations, and I don't think it is the worst of otucomes for the bond tent stuff. If you do enter retirement and spend down fixed income and/or rebalance into stocks over 10-20 years it doesn't seem the worst case for managing SORR.

And I have seen some over at bogleheads report that that is their AA. or even more fixed income. With bogleheads, that usually means the 40% in stocks is 2M. and maybe more. and then the 60% in fixed income provides enough interest and dividends to live on without cashing in any bonds. If in fact their fat pensions and social security aren't already paying for base living already.

Well I don't want to speak for any of the BHs as I'm not active on that forum, but if they really are doing that then imo it's just labouring under false pretenses.

40/60 has worse outcomes than any combination of stocks/bonds with a higher stock allocation, using US data history back to 1926 - cfiresim simulate the following:

40/60 - 89.6% success rate @ 4% WR
60/40 - 95.2% success rate @ 4% WR
75/25 - 96% success rate @ 4% WR
100/0 - 95.2% success rate @ 4% WR

By all the other risk and outcome metrics it produces worse outcomes, too. 

When your supposed diversifying asset makes up the majority of your portfolio it's time to to start re-examining some basic principles.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2025, 10:24:59 AM by vand »

Telecaster

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2025, 10:27:26 AM »
In a sense, the historical "look back" approach used by FireCalc, cFireSim, etc is really a best-case scenario that combines a bunch of optimistic assumptions.

At a minimum, the core assumption is that markets are the same today as back then.  And they aren't.   But it is the data we have and you have to start somewhere.

This is the reason why I take SWR projections with more than about one place past the decimal with a grain of salt (e.g. Bengen now using 4.5% instead of 4%).   I don't think past results are sufficiently predictive that they can generate that type of precision. 

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2025, 03:01:45 PM »
And also... this sort of situation is why stocks had an average PE ratio near 15 instead of near 30.

Exactly.

In a sense, the historical "look back" approach used by FireCalc, cFireSim, etc is really a best-case scenario that combines a bunch of optimistic assumptions.

I.e., someone assumes they average the returns that reflect the low valuations that existed for most of the last 150 years.

They probably assume they invested in the stock market of the country that became the world's superpower (by being on the right side in WWII and winning the cold war).

And they assume they could have used portfolio strategies and tactics for a century longer than they actually existed. (E.g., no-load, passive index funds and ETFs inside a tax-deferred retirement account.)

This is maybe a bad metaphor, but it's a bit like someone thinking that if they'd been migrating west in the 1800s? No covered wagon for them. They'd just have used their SUV.

I fully agree with these points.  But there are other changes counter to that, too.  We didn't have services-based or digital businesses, who even as some of our largest companies can continue to grow at 20% or more annually.  We were not as globally connected (perhaps less so in the last few months) so the addressable markets for the listed companies is less.

Which is the more impactful?  Nobody knows.  But for sure, history is a less-than-perfect guide.

“History Doesn't Repeat Itself, but It Often Rhymes” – Mark Twain

I personally think the huge demographic explosion we saw in the 20th century and that is only just peaking through today has hugely shaped the fortunes of the markets and the data we're all using.
It's a massive assumption that we can roughly repeat over the next century what we managed in the last.. the demographics will turn from a tailwind into a significant headwind.

ChpBstrd

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2025, 03:24:37 PM »
In a sense, the historical "look back" approach used by FireCalc, cFireSim, etc is really a best-case scenario that combines a bunch of optimistic assumptions.

At a minimum, the core assumption is that markets are the same today as back then.  And they aren't.   But it is the data we have and you have to start somewhere.

This is the reason why I take SWR projections with more than about one place past the decimal with a grain of salt (e.g. Bengen now using 4.5% instead of 4%).   I don't think past results are sufficiently predictive that they can generate that type of precision.
It might be more valid to start with top-down assumption numbers, rather than expecting the past to impossibly repeat.

E.g.
US population growth for next 30y: +0.3%
US inflation rate for next 30y (spitball est anchored in long-term trend): +3.25%
US long-term real GDP growth rate (spitball est anchored in long-term trend with -0.25% pessimistic bias for demographic aging): +1.75%
US Productivity growth (anchored on 1947-2024 average): +2%

Now somebody figure out how to get from here to corporate earnings! :))

41_swish

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2025, 10:54:24 AM »
What are the main things that derail a SWR? Is one of them a bad sequence of returns? Is the other lackluster market performance? Can a variable withdrawal rate be used to mitigate this? Can you carry an 18-month cash buffer to avoid bad market swings?

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2025, 11:16:57 AM »
I don't think this study is as revolutionary as you think.  1970 isn't that long ago, in 30-year chunks.  More importantly, it misses the year that defined SAFEMAX for Bengen, 1966.  I don't think the data is far off, if you shrunk Bengen's study data start to 1970.  (See below)

The 4% rule isn't a smooth thing.  Your actual safe withdrawal rate could be 8%, if you were lucky in your retirement.  It's just that you don't know until the end if you were right.  So, the conservative answer is the worst case.

Even if you accept the phoney Bretton Woods gold-fix data and run your simulations from 1966 in cfiresim gold still proves a better diversifier than bonds:

4% Initial WR
75/25 stocks/bonds 86.67% success:    https://www.cfiresim.com/f12a3551-9b87-4817-913b-4d7e001ac4b4 
75/25 stocks/gold 100% success:       https://www.cfiresim.com/7fc973fc-2f7d-43b4-a87b-f5cc882dfd0c


5% Initial WR
75/25 stocks/bonds 73.33% success:   https://www.cfiresim.com/7fc973fc-2f7d-43b4-a87b-f5cc882dfd0c
75/25 stocks/gold   96.67% success:   https://www.cfiresim.com/e892362d-ca25-4586-8250-d035628b8c5b

A 65/35 stock/gold portfolio as I have suggested gives a 100% success rate from 1966 even at 5% Initial WR:  https://www.cfiresim.com/7cc3b880-71ee-40a1-9088-ef0d005d5f32
« Last Edit: April 16, 2025, 11:32:31 AM by vand »

Telecaster

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2025, 04:30:32 PM »
What are the main things that derail a SWR? Is one of them a bad sequence of returns? Is the other lackluster market performance? Can a variable withdrawal rate be used to mitigate this? Can you carry an 18-month cash buffer to avoid bad market swings?

Lackluster market performance is a bad sequence of returns.   The other killer is high inflation.   

41_swish

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2025, 07:28:52 PM »
So, do you just have to be flexible in your spending and withdrawal rates?

Telecaster

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2025, 08:27:24 PM »
Or trust the 4% rule. 

41_swish

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2025, 09:17:12 PM »
You are right, I am overcomplicating things.

vand

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2025, 04:20:44 AM »
You are right, I am overcomplicating things.

at least you put up fight.

reeshau

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2025, 06:19:53 AM »
So, do you just have to be flexible in your spending and withdrawal rates?

The 4% rule is a maximum.  You can always be flexible in your spending; just don't cross the maximum.

To be honest, now that I am in these years, the 4% rule is less prominent to me.  Rather, I am looking at my real numbers coming in.  I made a 10-year budget when I FIRE'd in 2020.  I'm now halfway through it, and contemplating the next decade.  Looking at results so far, we have exceeded our spending projection--not surprising, as it was made before the recent bout of inflation, so assumed 3% a year.  But our stache has grown much more than that, even looking at it with 2025's declines.  So, overall, I am more confident in our position, not more worried.

For the next decade's projection, I will catch up the inflation information with real data, but still probably project relatively moderate inflation; 3% is above the Fed target, but it seems like we will be above 2% for some time.  This is it's own guar rail, to challenge our needs for more.  If results in decade 2 look like decade 1, with spending running hot but returns running hotter, it will still get my attention, but will not cause me to lose any sleep.  If things are otherwise, then I will change my approach accordingly.

That is living life--tactical, rather than only strategic thinking about retirement spending.  It happens once you are executing retirement.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2025, 11:04:22 AM by reeshau »

41_swish

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Re: 4.44% / 5.60% Safe Withdrawal Rate
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2025, 08:57:34 AM »
All good points. I am so early into this that is all just hypothetical anyways. I have just read too much nerdy stuff about withdrawal rates

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!