Backyard Orchard Culture

[Mgmny]

Anyone on here practicing Backyard Orchard Culture from Dave Wilson nursery (and now elsewhere on the web)?

My lot is less than 1/4 acre, but my setup is 4 apple trees, 1 sour cherry, and 2 pear trees. What do you all have?

[YttriumNitrate]

My old house was 1/2 acre in central Indiana (zone 5b) with about 10 apples trees, 3 pear trees, 3 peach trees, 3 nectarine trees, and a few plum trees. If I were to do it again in the same spot, I would have planted more peaches, fewer apples, and no nectarines (they never did well).

My new house is about 1/3 of an acre in Northwest Indiana (zone 6a) where pressure from deer is intense and the options available for protecting the trees are minimal so I went with trees that are more resistant. A few years ago I densely planted about 100 trees that are a 2:1 mixture of pawpaws and persimmons. The persimmons produced a bit last year, and the pawpaws still have a little bit longer to go.

[tygertygertyger]

Posting to follow, as we are house hunting and one of my first priorities is getting fruit and nut trees.

[sixwings]

Can you give me a link? I'd like to know more about the orchard culture you mention.

 I live in an older neighborhood that used to be an orchard when it was farmland and many of the fruit trees were kept when the housing was developed. As a result the yields from my neighbors and I can be pretty prolific. I have an apple, pear and plum tree in my backyard. My apple tree will produce 100-500lbs of apples (like a honeycrips, very delish), 80-100 lbs of pears, and another 80-100 lbs of plums. My neighbors and I pool them for canning and there's a place about a hour away that takes the apples and pears and makes it into very delish cider.

[cambridgecyclist]

I live on a ~7000 square foot lot and have four apples, two cherries, three pears, a peach tree and an almond tree -- almost all on some kind of dwarf rootstock. It's amazing what you can fit into a small space!

[Mgmny]

Can you give me a link? I'd like to know more about the orchard culture you mention.

 I live in an older neighborhood that used to be an orchard when it was farmland and many of the fruit trees were kept when the housing was developed. As a result the yields from my neighbors and I can be pretty prolific. I have an apple, pear and plum tree in my backyard. My apple tree will produce 100-500lbs of apples (like a honeycrips, very delish), 80-100 lbs of pears, and another 80-100 lbs of plums. My neighbors and I pool them for canning and there's a place about a hour away that takes the apples and pears and makes it into very delish cider.

Here are 2:

I believe Dave Wilson nursery is the "founder" of this type of fruit tree growing, but i could be wrong.
 https://www.davewilson.com/home-gardens/backyard-orchard-culture

This website has been helpful for me to learn more about pruning, etc.: https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/backyard-orchard-culture/

[Mgmny]

My old house was 1/2 acre in central Indiana (zone 5b) with about 10 apples trees, 3 pear trees, 3 peach trees, 3 nectarine trees, and a few plum trees. If I were to do it again in the same spot, I would have planted more peaches, fewer apples, and no nectarines (they never did well).

My new house is about 1/3 of an acre in Northwest Indiana (zone 6a) where pressure from deer is intense and the options available for protecting the trees are minimal so I went with trees that are more resistant. A few years ago I densely planted about 100 trees that are a 2:1 mixture of pawpaws and persimmons. The persimmons produced a bit last year, and the pawpaws still have a little bit longer to go.

100 trees on 1/3 of an acre?!?! Wow!!! Pictures!? Also, i thought persimmons needed at least growing zone 6, but a quick google told me that some are hardy to 4.... this is interesting knowledge to have!!

[Mgmny]

I live on a ~7000 square foot lot and have four apples, two cherries, three pears, a peach tree and an almond tree -- almost all on some kind of dwarf rootstock. It's amazing what you can fit into a small space!

Nice! That's a great mix! No almonds in zone 4 for me. Keeping the trees small really helps, and you can plant them so close together to increase yields on a per sqft basis dramatically. Plus, this way i don't need to climb a ladder to get everything. Maybe a stepstool, if i do a lazy job pruning.

[YttriumNitrate]

100 trees on 1/3 of an acre?!?! Wow!!! Pictures!? Also, i thought persimmons needed at least growing zone 6, but a quick google told me that some are hardy to 4.... this is interesting knowledge to have!!

Asian persimmons only go to zone 6, but the American kind can handle zone 4. A lot of the trees were densely planted in a fruit tree hedge by the road. Based on the sign, I think this is a photo of the hedge from last October.

[Mgmny]

100 trees on 1/3 of an acre?!?! Wow!!! Pictures!? Also, i thought persimmons needed at least growing zone 6, but a quick google told me that some are hardy to 4.... this is interesting knowledge to have!!

Asian persimmons only go to zone 6, but the American kind can handle zone 4. A lot of the trees were densely planted in a fruit tree hedge by the road. Based on the sign, I think this is a photo of the hedge from last October.

Very cool, i had no idea. I knew that pawpaws took forever to mature, and it looks like american persimmons are the same way - 10+ years to bear. That is maybe longer than i'm ok to wait... :) 

[YttriumNitrate]

Very cool, i had no idea. I knew that pawpaws took forever to mature, and it looks like american persimmons are the same way - 10+ years to bear. That is maybe longer than i'm ok to wait... :)

Persimmons aren't quite as bad as pawpaws. The trees in the photos were planted in 2017 and were rather small being from the state nursery (an amazing deal at 33 cents a trees). They were also grafted over which set them back a bit. Had they been pre-grafted and the same size as the typical trees sold in big box stores I would have guessed that would have their first fruit in their third leaf, so only a year or so slower than apples.

Pawpaws do take forever. They suffer from the double whammy of being slow growing and needing to be transplanted quite young due to their huge fragile root system.

[cambridgecyclist]

I live on a ~7000 square foot lot and have four apples, two cherries, three pears, a peach tree and an almond tree -- almost all on some kind of dwarf rootstock. It's amazing what you can fit into a small space!

Nice! That's a great mix! No almonds in zone 4 for me. Keeping the trees small really helps, and you can plant them so close together to increase yields on a per sqft basis dramatically. Plus, this way i don't need to climb a ladder to get everything. Maybe a stepstool, if i do a lazy job pruning.

If you're interested in super dense plantings, check out this expert orchardist's design for an apple fruiting wall:

http://fruitadvisor.info/tfruit/clements/homeowner/04302016massaggiefwa.pdf

Way cool.

[deborah]

In my backyard (including the side fence) I have - 1 cherry, 2 sour cherries (different varieties), apricot, Japanese plum (2 way), 4 European plums (different varieties), 3 lemons (different varieties), a grapefruit, lime, kumquat and a bitter orange, 23 apples (each is a different variety), 10 hazelnuts (4 different varieties). I think that's it for fruit trees. There's also seven raised garden beds for vegetables and a number of perennial vegetables, an enormous pin oak, lots of irises, tulips, and a herb garden in my normal suburban backyard. We have a large house and less than a fifth of an acre in total. We are self sufficient in fruit. We have no lawn, but people rarely realise just how many fruit trees we have. The front yard is all native plants.

[tygertygertyger]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right? How about spacing and managing room for non-tree plans? My partner and I are looking for a house right now, and debating the yard space/layout that we might need, with grill, a very large dog, vegetable gardens, and desire to grow mushrooms outside. I'm sure we'll figure it out, and scale up or down depending on the size of the yard, but I'm curious how others here have decided to tackle it.

[Mgmny]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right? How about spacing and managing room for non-tree plans? My partner and I are looking for a house right now, and debating the yard space/layout that we might need, with grill, a very large dog, vegetable gardens, and desire to grow mushrooms outside. I'm sure we'll figure it out, and scale up or down depending on the size of the yard, but I'm curious how others here have decided to tackle it.

Check out those links i sent above - they talk about spacing quite a bit. BYOC allows you to plant many trees in a super tight density. The goal is that you have a range of fruits that have different harvest times so you are always harvesting/have fresh fruit, vs getting 1000 apples all in a 1 week span, for instance.

Dwarf Rootstock is definitely the most practical and will make your pruning easier, that's for sure. They will also bear sooner, so that makes it nice too.

[YttriumNitrate]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right?

Dwarfing root stocks are nice if you have a large orchard and would otherwise be paying a team of people to prune the trees. With trees in the backyard, you'll probably be out in the yard anyways so super efficient maintenance of the trees isn't necessary. I've found that walking around the back yard with a pruning saw, and a snifter of scotch, is a rather pleasant way to spend an hour or so after work in the evening.

[iris lily]

We live in the urban core in a Victorian house in a neighborhood of 25’ wide lots. We have the lot our house sits on +2 extra lots. We have 20 some fruit trees.

Peaches, plums, apricots, several kinds of apples, sour cherries, pears. We also grow currents strawberries red raspberries.

The squirrels are nasty predators and get almost everything from the trees. They don’t take cherries. We’re on our second set of cherry trees since the first set died of old age and that is fine they were good producers. I always like the cherry trees because I love sour cherries and the trees were big enough that the birds could get a few at the top and I could pick at the bottom and we all got a share.

[Mgmny]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right?

Dwarfing root stocks are nice if you have a large orchard and would otherwise be paying a team of people to prune the trees. With trees in the backyard, you'll probably be out in the yard anyways so super efficient maintenance of the trees isn't necessary. I've found that walking around the back yard with a pruning saw, and a snifter of scotch, is a rather pleasant way to spend an hour or so after work in the evening.

Regarding dwarfing rootstock: How big do you want your trees? if you grow on a standard rootstock, you might not get good yields for 5+ years. So, i guess i feel like dwarfing or semi-dwarfing rootstock, plus pruning is just an all-around better experience.

But yeah, if you want 20 foot trees, then definitely dwarfing won't cut it for you.

[Roots&Wings]

Look forward to going through these resources! Have watched Plant Abundance and other permaculture shows on YouTube, but never heard of Dave Wilson before.

I'm on 1/3 acre and have over 50 fruit trees and bushes, with more planned. I was convinced there was no more room a couple years ago, and keep finding more room, especially the edges.

[tygertygertyger]

... the trees were big enough that the birds could get a few at the top and I could pick at the bottom and we all got a share.

This is behind my partner's enthusiasm for fruit and nut trees. He personally won't partake of any of it, but wants to expand the ecosystem for everyone. He grew up with loads of fat squirrels and battled a particularly clever groundhog for one entire summer, so I hope he knows what he's in for.

On the other hand, I absolutely intend to eat the wares!

And for @Mgmny's question, I don't want 20 ft trees. My partner's parents bought two semi-dwarf apple trees and never pruned them, and now they're quite tall and wide. My partner trims them back every time they start shading out the vegetable garden, but it gets difficult because they're so tall. (Seeing him on a ladder with a chainsaw is something I'd prefer not to repeat.) I definitely want shorter trees, so taking that into consideration.

[Mgmny]

I'm on 1/3 acre and have over 50 fruit trees and bushes, with more planned.

#lifegoals

Ha! But in all seriousness, this is amazing! my wife thinks i'm crazy just having 4 apples and 2 pears and a cherry! and i'm like, "there's room here, here, here, here, here, here, etc."

[Mgmny]

... the trees were big enough that the birds could get a few at the top and I could pick at the bottom and we all got a share.

This is behind my partner's enthusiasm for fruit and nut trees. He personally won't partake of any of it, but wants to expand the ecosystem for everyone.

Great ideas. Companion planting is helpful too!

I live in a brand new development - built in 2019, so the ecosystem here is terrible. Used to be a cornfield though, so maybe not that much worse. No squirrels, rabbits to speak of in the last 2 years we've lived here - they have no homes!! I am adding as much as i can to add to the biodiversity with many tree plantings, shrubs, vegetables, flowers. My neighbors... not so much... Many houses have no trees, and it's just a giant hellscape. It's terrible!!

How will we get the biodiversity and wildlife back if we don't all plant?! I know the pollinators in my area are terrible - why would they come over here?! All there are is giant swaths of grass!

ok, end of my rant, but for christsakes! Put some plants in the ground!!

[deborah]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right? How about spacing and managing room for non-tree plans? My partner and I are looking for a house right now, and debating the yard space/layout that we might need, with grill, a very large dog, vegetable gardens, and desire to grow mushrooms outside. I'm sure we'll figure it out, and scale up or down depending on the size of the yard, but I'm curious how others here have decided to tackle it.

Our apples are cordons or step overs, which don't need much space and are along the side of the house, which doesn't have much use otherwise as it's a narrow space between us and the neighbours. Trees must have fruit that I can reach from the ground - obviously branches can be a bit higher than that as fruit tends to make the branches droop a bit, but everything I can't reach is pruned. We don't have tight spacing. As we are self sufficient in fruit, there's not much point in tighter spacing. We have vegetable gardens - raised beds for annuals, and the perennials (like asparagus, artichokes, rhubarb are planted in appropriate places. Paths that ensure we don't need to step on ground. We don't have mushrooms or a dog (a dog would be a bad idea since we have no grass). We have a huge pin oak with a concrete entertaining area underneath, so you could put your grill there (probably your mushrooms in the bed around the concrete, as we have irises and tulips there).

At the moment, I'm working on increasing the perennial vegetables so that we can be self sufficient in vegetables without doing much yearly planting - maybe only tomatoes and beans. Warrigal greens can replace spinach, our lettuce reseeds each year, so I don't need to plant it, garlic and leeks can become perennial, more or less. I'm also trying to replace exotic vegetables with native Australian equivalents (which tend to be perennial).

[crazy jane]

Posting to follow. We will be moving into a house at the end of the summer and have the opportunity to completely landscape the land. I'm thinking raised beds in the back and fruit trees in the front.

[the_hobbitish]

I'm going to try this in my front yard. I've got 6 apples on standard rootstock all at wide orchard spacing right now. I didn't do any pruning the first year or two so the shape is going to be questionable. I'm hoping I can correct some issues and pick good scaffold limbs over the next 2 years. I've had to tell myself that it's ok if my trees aren't the "right" shape as long as they don't have nay major problems that could cause limb breakage later. Good enough is in fact good enough.

My 15ft spacing doesn't make much sense if I don't want them to get above 8-10 feet tall and don't need to get a tractor in between. I'm thinking about adding a few more planted between the ones I have now to narrow it down to something like 6 ft spacing. I wish I had known all this earlier - I would've bought dwarf rootstock.

I'm finding this video on backyard orchards informative (and amusing) so far... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RzvpT5Ag7I

[tygertygertyger]

How does everyone manage multiple fruit trees on small property? I assume you must be buying trees on dwarfstock, right? How about spacing and managing room for non-tree plans? My partner and I are looking for a house right now, and debating the yard space/layout that we might need, with grill, a very large dog, vegetable gardens, and desire to grow mushrooms outside. I'm sure we'll figure it out, and scale up or down depending on the size of the yard, but I'm curious how others here have decided to tackle it.

Our apples are cordons or step overs, which don't need much space and are along the side of the house, which doesn't have much use otherwise as it's a narrow space between us and the neighbours. Trees must have fruit that I can reach from the ground - obviously branches can be a bit higher than that as fruit tends to make the branches droop a bit, but everything I can't reach is pruned. We don't have tight spacing. As we are self sufficient in fruit, there's not much point in tighter spacing. We have vegetable gardens - raised beds for annuals, and the perennials (like asparagus, artichokes, rhubarb are planted in appropriate places. Paths that ensure we don't need to step on ground. We don't have mushrooms or a dog (a dog would be a bad idea since we have no grass). We have a huge pin oak with a concrete entertaining area underneath, so you could put your grill there (probably your mushrooms in the bed around the concrete, as we have irises and tulips there).

At the moment, I'm working on increasing the perennial vegetables so that we can be self sufficient in vegetables without doing much yearly planting - maybe only tomatoes and beans. Warrigal greens can replace spinach, our lettuce reseeds each year, so I don't need to plant it, garlic and leeks can become perennial, more or less. I'm also trying to replace exotic vegetables with native Australian equivalents (which tend to be perennial).

This is great - thank you. I started going down a youtube rabbit hole of food forest videos and fruit tree setups this weekend, and now I'm even more anxious to get started.

[iris lily]

Most of our trees are dwarves I think, I would have to check with DH for  sure. We have one miniature apple tree, it is tiny. We also have 4 columnar apple trees but those are mostly ornamental.

[Aegishjalmur]

Posting to follow, and I will be trying something similar... I have 2.5 acres in zone 5b but most is wooded(will be developing into food forest over time) but in the back bordering the woods I have a ~30 ftX120 ft section that I will be planting with fruit trees so this seems like a great idea.

[draco44]

Where did the pawpaw growers among you buy their trees from? I'd love a reputable source suggestion.

[YttriumNitrate]

Where did the pawpaw growers among you buy their trees from? I'd love a reputable source suggestion.

State nurseries are the best source in my opinion. One green world sells quality stuff, but they're not cheap.

[soily]

Where did the pawpaw growers among you buy their trees from? I'd love a reputable source suggestion.

I'm a big fan of this nursery
https://peacefulheritage.com/

[Weisass]

We are practicing some version of this on our 1/3 acre.  So far we have:

10 blueberries
2 apples
2 pears
1 nectarine
2 plums
1 apricot
2 crabapples
2 hazelnuts
5 chinquapin chestnuts
8 currant bushes
15 Nanking cherries
3 elderberry bushes
2 blackberries
1 fig
1 Hardy kiwi

[draco44]

Thank you for the pawpaw tips!

[Mgmny]

We are practicing some version of this on our 1/3 acre.  So far we have:

10 blueberries
2 apples
2 pears
1 nectarine
2 plums
1 apricot
2 crabapples
2 hazelnuts
5 chinquapin chestnuts
8 currant bushes
15 Nanking cherries
3 elderberry bushes
2 blackberries
1 fig
1 Hardy kiwi

That's awesome!! What is your zone?

[tygertygertyger]

5 chinquapin chestnuts

How are these? I was reading about them in Paradise Lot by Eric Toensmeier. Do you enjoy them?

[dougules]

Does anybody know anything about organic pest control?  I've got a peach tree that would have made a lot of peaches last year, but they all rotted after worms bored into them right before they ripened.  I'd rather not get out the heavy duty insecticides and fungicides. 

[Mgmny]

Does anybody know anything about organic pest control?  I've got a peach tree that would have made a lot of peaches last year, but they all rotted after worms bored into them right before they ripened.  I'd rather not get out the heavy duty insecticides and fungicides.

I use neem oil on my apples. Idk anything about peaches though and the pests you encounter.

[draco44]

Does anybody know anything about organic pest control?  I've got a peach tree that would have made a lot of peaches last year, but they all rotted after worms bored into them right before they ripened.  I'd rather not get out the heavy duty insecticides and fungicides.

I use neem oil on my apples. Idk anything about peaches though and the pests you encounter.

Step one is to identify the specific pest you are trying to control. I'm guessing maybe Oriental fruit moth (Grapholitha molesta)? Pheromone-based mating disruption products can help, as can removing dropped fruit where larvae overwinter. Some people also buy and release parasitic wasps for fruit moth control, but I don't know if that would work with only one tree.

[the_hobbitish]

I think some people wrap their peaches in sock sized hose to prevent a type of moth from laying eggs and damaging the fruit. I know with apples you spray with surround to take of most pests.

There are some good threads on organic spraying routines over on growingfruit.org. They helped me figure out my apple routine. Now I need to go out and buy a sprayer sometime before leaves get going.

[Mgmny]

I think some people wrap their peaches in sock sized hose to prevent a type of moth from laying eggs and damaging the fruit. I know with apples you spray with surround to take of most pests.

There are some good threads on organic spraying routines over on growingfruit.org. They helped me figure out my apple routine. Now I need to go out and buy a sprayer sometime before leaves get going.

Wow! I had no idea that place existed! Thank you for the link! It looks super active too, cool! Do you have a link to a spraying regimen?

[the_hobbitish]

This is only my second year. I'm going to try the one by scott smith, one of the forum leaders. He's in a similar growing zone to me.

My first spray is dormant oil and lime Sulphur. I'm a little behind schedule on my pears (starting to leaf out), but hopefully I can get the apples done in the next two weeks.

https://growingfruit.org/t/low-impact-spray-schedule-2019-edition/22543

[Mgmny]

This is only my second year. I'm going to try the one by scott smith, one of the forum leaders. He's in a similar growing zone to me.

My first spray is dormant oil and lime Sulphur. I'm a little behind schedule on my pears (starting to leaf out), but hopefully I can get the apples done in the next two weeks.

https://growingfruit.org/t/low-impact-spray-schedule-2019-edition/22543

Thank you!!

[dougules]

I think some people wrap their peaches in sock sized hose to prevent a type of moth from laying eggs and damaging the fruit. I know with apples you spray with surround to take of most pests.

There are some good threads on organic spraying routines over on growingfruit.org. They helped me figure out my apple routine. Now I need to go out and buy a sprayer sometime before leaves get going.

I bought some surround for my peaches, and I'm going to give it a try.  Any tips?

[AerynLee]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

[the_hobbitish]

My Jacto HD400 sprayer arrived in the mail today. I'm really excited to try it out this weekend with my first oil spray. This year will be my first year doing surround too, but not until after petal fall in maybe May/June...

Here are the tips on using surround from the fruit forum:

-- You need to keep a good coat of Surround from petal fall to fruit around nickel-sized. I use 3c per gallon for the first several sprays and after 1" or more rain, 2c per gallon other times.

-- While it is most important to cover the fruitlets, the branches around the fruits also need good coverage as the curculio is mostly walking between fruitlets. Hit from all sides. I once saw the curc moving upside-down on a branch I sprayed only the top on. Oops.  You don’t have to make the tree all white but you need a good number of specks on all surfaces of the tree.

-- Start right after petal fall. If the petal fall times are varying just hit what has dropped petals, don’t wait till all to drop or your curcs will be having a party on the early stuff.

-- Base re-application on what the current coat looks like. A little rain often does little, but an inch of rain will wash most off. In spring a week of growth can cause a lot more fruit to be exposed, especially with shuck drop, so also monitor how covered the fruits are rain or no.

-- Remember the curc likes warm nights. Don’t let the trees sit barren on a warm night!
   
-- Some trees the curc just likes more and you will see those and can hit them harder when you spray.

-- Once the curc worm is into the seed the bitten fruits will start to decline. Look for those smaller yellowing/wrinking fruits and thin them, even if they are not curc bitten they need thinning anyway. Once they drop they are harder to find.

-- Speaking of drops, once the curc has eaten the seeds of stone fruits the fruit will start to drop. You need to be vigilant to get all the drops you can as each one will make a new curc which will then wreck 100’s of fruits. At that point you will need to also be collecting any thinned fruits (don’t just drop them on the ground) as you want all the fruit on the ground to be ones to pick up. For apples the curc usually gets crushed and you just get a misshapen apple, and there is not so much of an issue with picking up drops.

-- Beware that the curc seems to first be doing minor damage and then one day it goes from nothing to horrible. This is often because a warm night showed up and the curc chowed down. Or you missed a bunch of damage.

-- Remember that Surround is just slo-mo juice for the curc, you will still get plenty of damage. But you should have 90% of the fruit OK if you did a good job on the coats.

[dougules]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

With blueberries the key is to make sure the soil stays acidic.  If the leaves start turning yellow it means the soil isn't acidic enough, and you should apply sulfur.  Also, birds love blueberries, so you may need to net them if that becomes a problem. 

That's pretty far north for pecans. 

My Jacto HD400 sprayer arrived in the mail today. I'm really excited to try it out this weekend with my first oil spray. This year will be my first year doing surround too, but not until after petal fall in maybe May/June...

Here are the tips on using surround from the fruit forum:

-- You need to keep a good coat of Surround from petal fall to fruit around nickel-sized. I use 3c per gallon for the first several sprays and after 1" or more rain, 2c per gallon other times.

-- While it is most important to cover the fruitlets, the branches around the fruits also need good coverage as the curculio is mostly walking between fruitlets. Hit from all sides. I once saw the curc moving upside-down on a branch I sprayed only the top on. Oops.  You don’t have to make the tree all white but you need a good number of specks on all surfaces of the tree.

-- Start right after petal fall. If the petal fall times are varying just hit what has dropped petals, don’t wait till all to drop or your curcs will be having a party on the early stuff.

-- Base re-application on what the current coat looks like. A little rain often does little, but an inch of rain will wash most off. In spring a week of growth can cause a lot more fruit to be exposed, especially with shuck drop, so also monitor how covered the fruits are rain or no.

-- Remember the curc likes warm nights. Don’t let the trees sit barren on a warm night!
   
-- Some trees the curc just likes more and you will see those and can hit them harder when you spray.

-- Once the curc worm is into the seed the bitten fruits will start to decline. Look for those smaller yellowing/wrinking fruits and thin them, even if they are not curc bitten they need thinning anyway. Once they drop they are harder to find.

-- Speaking of drops, once the curc has eaten the seeds of stone fruits the fruit will start to drop. You need to be vigilant to get all the drops you can as each one will make a new curc which will then wreck 100’s of fruits. At that point you will need to also be collecting any thinned fruits (don’t just drop them on the ground) as you want all the fruit on the ground to be ones to pick up. For apples the curc usually gets crushed and you just get a misshapen apple, and there is not so much of an issue with picking up drops.

-- Beware that the curc seems to first be doing minor damage and then one day it goes from nothing to horrible. This is often because a warm night showed up and the curc chowed down. Or you missed a bunch of damage.

-- Remember that Surround is just slo-mo juice for the curc, you will still get plenty of damage. But you should have 90% of the fruit OK if you did a good job on the coats.

I need to get moving then since the fruit is already about pea-size, although last year I didn't notice any problems until they hit about the size of a quarter.

How bad does rain effect surround?  Do I need to reapply every time it rains, or just after 1" ish?  edit: you actually answered that question.  I just need better reading skills.

[AerynLee]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

With blueberries the key is to make sure the soil stays acidic.  If the leaves start turning yellow it means the soil isn't acidic enough, and you should apply sulfur.  Also, birds love blueberries, so you may need to net them if that becomes a problem. 

That's pretty far north for pecans. 

I had heard that about blueberries. I assume there's such thing as too acidic so I'd want to test where my soil is at before planting?

Hmm, my mom had a very prolific pecan tree (and walnuts) at nearly the same latitude and climate so I assumed we were in the right area for them

[Mgmny]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

With blueberries the key is to make sure the soil stays acidic.  If the leaves start turning yellow it means the soil isn't acidic enough, and you should apply sulfur.  Also, birds love blueberries, so you may need to net them if that becomes a problem. 

That's pretty far north for pecans. 

I had heard that about blueberries. I assume there's such thing as too acidic so I'd want to test where my soil is at before planting?

Hmm, my mom had a very prolific pecan tree (and walnuts) at nearly the same latitude and climate so I assumed we were in the right area for them

I'm planting blueberries this spring as well. Shoot for a pH of 4.5. I just put down a BUNCH of peat moss in my soil. I'll be battling it forever though, as I have it in a raised bed made of landscaping blocks. Concrete has a pH of like 13, so i'll be fighting a pH battle forever.

So yes, test your soil. Very, very, very unlikely that the site you chose randomly is 4.5 pH - so plan on amending with sulfur or peat moss or other soil acidifiers (i might try using some vinegar too - i can't find many resources online about how well this works, so if you come across something, let me know!).

[dougules]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

With blueberries the key is to make sure the soil stays acidic.  If the leaves start turning yellow it means the soil isn't acidic enough, and you should apply sulfur.  Also, birds love blueberries, so you may need to net them if that becomes a problem. 

That's pretty far north for pecans. 

I had heard that about blueberries. I assume there's such thing as too acidic so I'd want to test where my soil is at before planting?

Hmm, my mom had a very prolific pecan tree (and walnuts) at nearly the same latitude and climate so I assumed we were in the right area for them

I'm planting blueberries this spring as well. Shoot for a pH of 4.5. I just put down a BUNCH of peat moss in my soil. I'll be battling it forever though, as I have it in a raised bed made of landscaping blocks. Concrete has a pH of like 13, so i'll be fighting a pH battle forever.

So yes, test your soil. Very, very, very unlikely that the site you chose randomly is 4.5 pH - so plan on amending with sulfur or peat moss or other soil acidifiers (i might try using some vinegar too - i can't find many resources online about how well this works, so if you come across something, let me know!).

I've just been applying sulfur incrementally until the plants look healthy.  I probably should be more exact about it and test, though.  I would recommend that if you're thinking about planting blueberries, go ahead and pick out a spot, and start conditioning the soil there now.  As a side benefit, it seems like most weeds don't like that really acidic soil. 

Pecans are native to further south, but they may do ok up there.  I just didn't know one way or the other, so I wanted to throw it out there as something to consider.   Here in zone 7, they do really well with very little effort.   They're all over my neighborhood, and in good years they produce to the point there are big oil slicks on the streets from cars running over them.  There really is a big benefit to growing native North American crops like pecans and blueberries that are well adapted to our schizophrenic climate and native pests. 

I don't know anything about European walnuts which I assume are what you're thinking of.  You only see wild American walnuts down here, and those are a bit different from European walnuts like you see in stores. 

[AerynLee]

Posting to keep track of this. We just bought an acre is the country. It has a peach tree already and I want to at least plant walnut, pecan, and blueberries. Google shows we're solidly in Zone 5 but I know basically nothing about growing anything

With blueberries the key is to make sure the soil stays acidic.  If the leaves start turning yellow it means the soil isn't acidic enough, and you should apply sulfur.  Also, birds love blueberries, so you may need to net them if that becomes a problem. 

That's pretty far north for pecans. 

I had heard that about blueberries. I assume there's such thing as too acidic so I'd want to test where my soil is at before planting?

Hmm, my mom had a very prolific pecan tree (and walnuts) at nearly the same latitude and climate so I assumed we were in the right area for them

I'm planting blueberries this spring as well. Shoot for a pH of 4.5. I just put down a BUNCH of peat moss in my soil. I'll be battling it forever though, as I have it in a raised bed made of landscaping blocks. Concrete has a pH of like 13, so i'll be fighting a pH battle forever.

So yes, test your soil. Very, very, very unlikely that the site you chose randomly is 4.5 pH - so plan on amending with sulfur or peat moss or other soil acidifiers (i might try using some vinegar too - i can't find many resources online about how well this works, so if you come across something, let me know!).

I've just been applying sulfur incrementally until the plants look healthy.  I probably should be more exact about it and test, though.  I would recommend that if you're thinking about planting blueberries, go ahead and pick out a spot, and start conditioning the soil there now.  As a side benefit, it seems like most weeds don't like that really acidic soil. 

Pecans are native to further south, but they may do ok up there.  I just didn't know one way or the other, so I wanted to throw it out there as something to consider.   Here in zone 7, they do really well with very little effort.   They're all over my neighborhood, and in good years they produce to the point there are big oil slicks on the streets from cars running over them.  There really is a big benefit to growing native North American crops like pecans and blueberries that are well adapted to our schizophrenic climate and native pests. 

I don't know anything about European walnuts which I assume are what you're thinking of.  You only see wild American walnuts down here, and those are a bit different from European walnuts like you see in stores. 

I have a feeling this year will be 90% planning/prepping with very little actually getting planted, and hopefully next year is when I get things going

Funny enough, what I really want are black walnuts which google tells me are American. I definitely want to stick more with native plants to help out the local ecosystem, but didn't even realize that my preferred walnuts are (more) local than "regular" walnuts