Any permaculture enthusiasts?

[Dreamer40]

I’m just starting to learn about permaculture and it strikes me as something Mustachian gardeners would be into. Lots of emphasis on smart design and working with nature to make gardening more efficient. The 3 ethics relate to doing what’s good for the earth, good for people, and sharing the surplus. I’m reading Gaia’s Garden right now. Any favorite permaculture books or resources?

[nereo]

Permaculture shares a lot in common with organic farming, and evolved from the same roots (pun intended) - “humus farming” which gained traction in the 60s and 70s (though humus farming itself has ‘roots’ which go back centuries). Whereas ‘organic’ diverged to become a certification and the underlying principles to achieve said certification, ‘permaculture’ now seems to be the buzzword for the philosophy and daily methods.  Regardless, I’m a big fan. 
“Get the soil right” and most things will take off.  Soil + water + sun in all the right proportions and everything else seems to take care of itself.

I spend far more time worrying about my soil than everything else combined.

[Weisass]

I’m just starting to learn about permaculture and it strikes me as something Mustachian gardeners would be into. Lots of emphasis on smart design and working with nature to make gardening more efficient. The 3 ethics relate to doing what’s good for the earth, good for people, and sharing the surplus. I’m reading Gaia’s Garden right now. Any favorite permaculture books or resources?

Great book! Toby home way was a good resource. I am quite into permaculture principles, and have enjoyed reading Practical Permaculture as well.

[Rosy]

Agreed, Toby's book is the best! I keep referring back to it.
One book that is a good expansion on and addition to Gaia's Garden is by Eric Toensmeier "Perennial Vegetables".
A wealth of information, well sorted so it is easy to find what you want to look into. A go-to book.
You will find veggies you have never heard of but most of all of course I like the idea of not having to replant and obsess about new plantings every year.

I've adapted as much as possible from permaculture practices, I've always gardened organically anyway.
One good youtube channel with some awesome examples - Pete Kanaris - Green Dreams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHTd5C2HgKw

[daverobev]

This is 'the bible' I think - https://shop.permaculture.co.uk/the-earth-care-manual.html - should work on Portland, heatwaves permitting...

And then anything by Bill Mollison, he's the 'originator' - I think this is a good one https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/381988.Permaculture

Ben Law's The Woodland Way is very interesting, he lives in the woods as a charcoal maker/coppicer.

[Dreamer40]

I thought there would be a few of you here! Thanks for all the resource recommendations.

And yeah, it does seem to all come down to caring for the soil. I planted a few things today in a dry sandy compacted section of my yard. I suspect a lot of weed killer was used there before my time so I’m nervous how my first plants there will do. But I’m also excited to transform it over time. I picked out plants who should be ok with less-than-ideal soil. Fingers crossed.

[trashtalk]

Love permaculture. Visited the Greening the Desert site in Jordan and realized we should all be aiming for “oasisification” of any land we own—the human hand can do terrible damage but it can also create great and sustaining prosperity.

The saying “feed the soil to feed the plant to feed the people” reminds me a lot of Mustachianism.

[Indio]

@trashtalk that's cool that you've been to the Jordan site. I've been following Geoff Lawtonm, especially on IG but also his youtube channel, for many years. Came close to visiting his farm when I was in aus but the planets didn't align to get there. Totally agree that water is a resource that needs to be carefully considered in any permaculture plan for a geo that is at risk of drought or flood. I've noticed that my microclimate has changed significantly in the years that I've been following permaculture design principles. If it's land you plan to be on for many years, you probably need to plan for the conditions to change and ensure that the design can adapt as needed.

[CowboyAndIndian]

Very interested, but do not have any land big enough to implement these ideas.

I found this Andrew Millison video about permaculture fascinating. Looks like they used gamification, pitting village against village and achieving great results.

[Steeze]

A family favorite:

The Good Life: Helen and Scott Nearing's Sixty Years of Self-Sufficient Living https://www.amazon.com/dp/0805209700/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_XP7NB80Q8YSKNPYGD0KR?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

This is the first book I read to my newborn son. I will make sure it is on his shelf later in life when he can read himself.

[Weisass]

Very interested, but do not have any land big enough to implement these ideas.

I found this Andrew Millison video about permaculture fascinating. Looks like they used gamification, pitting village against village and achieving great results.

Not gonna argue with you there, but I’m on a third of an acre, and there is always *something* you can do to take care of the earth where you are.

[trashtalk]

We are on 1/8th of an acre in the city adjacent to a freeway and grow food and cultivate habitat for the local wildlife. It’s all the same techniques just scaled down; I recommend Gaia’s Garden by Toby Hemenway if you haven’t looked at it.

[Roots&Wings]

Very interested, but do not have any land big enough to implement these ideas.

I found this Andrew Millison video about permaculture fascinating. Looks like they used gamification, pitting village against village and achieving great results.

Not gonna argue with you there, but I’m on a third of an acre, and there is always *something* you can do to take care of the earth where you are.

Yep, lots you can do on a small space, this family on 1/10 acre grows most of their food, chickens, goats, solar, veggies: https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM?t=38

[CowboyAndIndian]

Not gonna argue with you there, but I’m on a third of an acre, and there is always *something* you can do to take care of the earth where you are.

Totally agree with you on that.

I have a quarter acre and due to HOA restrictions, I cannot replace the lawn on two sides of the house. On the other two sides, I am starting a native garden. This will be my next spring/summer project.

Going to improve the soil this fall using the arborist wood-chip method. Any ideas @nereo? 

I refuse to use pesticides and chemical fertilizers. Hope to see this garden come to fruition in 2023-2024.

[CowboyAndIndian]

Yep, lots you can do on a small space, this family on 1/10 acre grows most of their food, chickens, goats, solar, veggies: https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM?t=38

Wow, just wow!

My plans for 2 raised beds look rather pathetic compared to this guy.

[FLBiker]

I did a PDC (Permaculture Design Certificate) through Oregon State University a number of years ago.  It was great!  I also did a bit of a local one, but I found the Oregon won to be way more professional.  Andrew Millison was one of the instructors, and he was great.  I was living in Tampa at the time, and we did a bunch of stuff in our yard, but we moved to Nova Scotia last year so I'm kind of back to square one in terms of my plant knowledge.  Fortunately, we already have some good stuff established here (raspberries, blueberries, rhubarb, asparagus), and we'll just add to it as we learn.

For anyone living in warmish climate, katuk is my absolute favorite plant.  It's a great edible green that can be cooked or eaten raw, it tastes good and it is dead easy to grow, propagate and harvest.

My newest experiment is a fig tree.  Apparently, folks here (again, Nova Scotia) will leave them outside in warm weather, wait for a freeze when they'll drop their leaves and go dormant, water them and stick them in an unheated shed.  Then put them back outside once it gets above freezing again.  I certainly didn't expect to grow figs here but I'm giving it a shot. :)

[Linea_Norway]

I first heard about it for one and a half year ago and have read websites and watched talks. It sounded like a possible solution to many problems (climate adaption, feeding world population), if done on a big enough scale.

Recently I went to a kitchen garden class (for just a few hours) and the teacher had a great garden full of edible stuff. I asked her if she had heard of permaculture. Of course she had, and she said the difference with her garden was that permacultures uses mostly perennial plants, while she had many annuals. She did do a lot of planting together and improving soil with compost.

I currently don't have a garden to plant in, so I am a bit in limbo state right now. But I would love to have a very edible garden. If we find our house to live in, I will try to make a permaculture garden.

I wonder about a few things when it comes to permaculture. One is the forest garden that is often mentioned. I sort of know how it is supposed to be built up. But is a forest garden a requirement, or just one of the options for your garden?
And the other thing I wonder about is rotation of vegetable beds. From what I have understand ut is good to rotate your vegetable beds. How does that combine with permaculture where your garden is supposed to "self maintain" for the next 1000 years?
And what about the social element of permaculture? I get it that when you convert a local parc into an edible park, you need to involve the local community. But what about your own patch? Maybe this is only applicable if you have a farm with more land and need more people to run it?

This is a nice film about a permaculture farm. I hope you are allowed to watch the link from abroad. Ignore the Norwegian title and subtitles. It is an American film and English spoken.
https://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID23004919

[Dreamer40]

I first heard about it for one and a half year ago and have read websites and watched talks. It sounded like a possible solution to many problems (climate adaption, feeding world population), if done on a big enough scale.

Recently I went to a kitchen garden class (for just a few hours) and the teacher had a great garden full of edible stuff. I asked her if she had heard of permaculture. Of course she had, and she said the difference with her garden was that permacultures uses mostly perennial plants, while she had many annuals. She did do a lot of planting together and improving soil with compost.

I currently don't have a garden to plant in, so I am a bit in limbo state right now. But I would love to have a very edible garden. If we find our house to live in, I will try to make a permaculture garden.

I wonder about a few things when it comes to permaculture. One is the forest garden that is often mentioned. I sort of know how it is supposed to be built up. But is a forest garden a requirement, or just one of the options for your garden?
And the other thing I wonder about is rotation of vegetable beds. From what I have understand ut is good to rotate your vegetable beds. How does that combine with permaculture where your garden is supposed to "self maintain" for the next 1000 years?
And what about the social element of permaculture? I get it that when you convert a local parc into an edible park, you need to involve the local community. But what about your own patch? Maybe this is only applicable if you have a farm with more land and need more people to run it?

This is a nice film about a permaculture farm. I hope you are allowed to watch the link from abroad. Ignore the Norwegian title and subtitles. It is an American film and English spoken.
https://tv.nrk.no/program/KOID23004919

I wonder about a few things when it comes to permaculture. One is the forest garden that is often mentioned. I sort of know how it is supposed to be built up. But is a forest garden a requirement, or just one of the options for your garden?
Permaculture is very flexible about doing what’s right for your particular space. The layers are supposed to work together and maximize space, but adding tall trees to my yard isn’t currently feasible. But I still consider my efforts to be guided by permaculture principles!

And the other thing I wonder about is rotation of vegetable beds. From what I have understand ut is good to rotate your vegetable beds. How does that combine with permaculture where your garden is supposed to "self maintain" for the next 1000 years?
Some people still have an annual garden area or raised beds. Crop rotation is less of an issue for small scale home gardeners than for large fields of a single crop. Like even though I have a basil section in a raised bed, my zucchini is encroaching on it and a few random carrots are popping up all over so it’s not just one thing in one spot. But you can also start working annual crops into your other beds. Like use squash for a low ground cover layer between trees and bushes. Herbs and root vegetables can also be grown all over the place.

And what about the social element of permaculture? I get it that when you convert a local parc into an edible park, you need to involve the local community. But what about your own patch? Maybe this is only applicable if you have a farm with more land and need more people to run it?
For social, I think about using my outdoor garden space to host family and also sharing the surplus. My cousin has overgrown berry bushes that I raided last week. I’m using her berries to make homemade liqueur that I will end up sharing with her this fall. My area also a nonprofit group who will pick any fruit people don’t want and distribute it to others who can’t afford produce.

[Linea_Norway]

@Dreamer40
Thanks for answering.

[ZsaZsa]

There is a channel on YouTube by an Irish woman, Colette ONeill, who operates and talks about her 3 acre Bealtaine Project. She refers to what she does as "Goddess Permaculture." Her videos are sometimes charming and always inspiring.

[lhamo]

For those looking for additional inspiration on Youtube, I really like Morag Gamble's videos.  Kirsten Dirksen also profiles a lot of permaculturists in her videos.  And Justin Rhodes visited several permaculture focused sites on his Great American Farm Tour in I think 2017 -- plus lots of other people doing regenerative ag in different ways.

Re: food forests or forest gardens, my preliminary understanding of it is that it is a way to maximize the productive potential of your land, however limited, by using different layers of production that stack on top of each other while also having overall benefits in terms of building soil health and promoting water retention.  Also the forest zone is typically toward the outer edges of your property where it protects from unwanted intrusions -- wind, noise, bad smells from roads or other yucky stuff -- and serves as a lure for biodiversity (birds and bugs will WANT to be on your property because there is so much for them there and the relative density of plants provide a lot of places for them to hide from predators). 

[Roots&Wings]

Love those @lhamo! I've also been enjoying Growing Small featuring tropical/subtropical food forests in Africa, https://www.youtube.com/c/GrowingSmall,  and My Food Forest (I believe she's in India), https://www.youtube.com/c/MyFoodForest/featured

[trashtalk]

All the Happen Films documentaries in YouTube are must watch if you’re a permaculturist.

And that lovely food forester lady in the previous comment reminded me of “Vegan Athlete” in Arizona. He’s since sold the property and now lives in a yurt somewhere in the tropics but his Arizona stuff is still available and terrific.

https://youtu.be/5bcRUESwD08

[Abe]

What're everyone's opinions on growing vegetables/fruits in backyards in a major city? I worry about polluted soil from whatever chemicals prior owners used / runoff from our streets.

[Linea_Norway]

What're everyone's opinions on growing vegetables/fruits in backyards in a major city? I worry about polluted soil from whatever chemicals prior owners used / runoff from our streets.

I heard biologists say that plants don't take up much pollution. They live CO2 that traffic produces. Chemicals don't sound great. You could use pots or raised beds to keep your stuff off the ground with it's own soil. But apart from chemicals, I wouldn't worry about city growth. It is pretty hot to grow stuff in cities and to have restaurant gardens on roofs.

[crazy jane]

Posting to follow.

[RetiredAt63]

What're everyone's opinions on growing vegetables/fruits in backyards in a major city? I worry about polluted soil from whatever chemicals prior owners used / runoff from our streets.

I heard biologists say that plants don't take up much pollution. They live CO2 that traffic produces. Chemicals don't sound great. You could use pots or raised beds to keep your stuff off the ground with it's own soil. But apart from chemicals, I wouldn't worry about city growth. It is pretty hot to grow stuff in cities and to have restaurant gardens on roofs.

Well that depends.  Plants will take up lead and arsenic (brown rice is notorious for arsenic).    Soil near foundations may be alkaline because of leaching from concrete.

An urban gardener can ask neighbours, or to be safe get a soil test for heavy metals.  And soil Ph.  If you are getting soil tested anyway, you might as well test for macro and micro nutrients.

However, backyards are usually much safer than front yards.  Lead from exhaust will not have reached there, compared to the front of the house. 

Another consideration is how old is the house?  Is there likely to be lead in the soil from lead paint from the house?

I should point out that rural land is not automatically safe either.  Orchards used to be sprayed with lead arsenate.  There could be contamination from septic systems and underground oil tanks.  Some areas have naturally high arsenic levels in soil - in Cobalt in Northern Ontario for example, the rock intrusions that hold the cobalt and silver are also alkaline and high in arsenic.  So groundwater in many places is also high in arsenic.  Wells test out really good for coliforms, because arsenic kills bacteria too.   ;-)

Hope this helped.

[Daisy]

I recently learned about permaculture as well. I am now designing and installing a permaculture food forest in my suburban home. I am super excited about it!

I was planning to travel a lot after FIREing, but due to the state of the world these days I have channeled that energy away from travelling to learning and working on my permaculture garden.

I am still a newbie so the resources mentioned here will help me a lot.

[TrMama]

What're everyone's opinions on growing vegetables/fruits in backyards in a major city? I worry about polluted soil from whatever chemicals prior owners used / runoff from our streets.

I wouldn't worry about that at all unless your backyard gets a lot of runoff from a busy street. My DH's Italian Nonas in Vancouver all had/have their backyards devoted to growing food and they seem to be very healthy and long lived. If you're really concerned, build some raised beds so the roots will be mostly above any runoff. A bigger issue in the city is usually sunlight since tall buildings and houses can cast big shadows.

CowboyAndIndian - Can you add some in ground beds to the sides of your lawn? If you stick a mixture of flowers and food plants in there, the HOA probably wouldn't even notice. We don't have an HOA, but next summer I'm planning to plant pumpkins around the edge of my front lawn and train the vines over the grass. I'm not quite ready to smother the grass yet and I want to find out if the deer will leave pumpkins alone.

[lhamo]

Google/ask around to see if there are organizations in your area that do soil testing -- in the Seattle area King Conservation District will test up to five samples per property for free (though heavy metals testing costs extra)

https://kingcd.org/programs/better-soils/healthy-soil/

They also run a "manure match" program!

https://kingcd.org/programs/better-soils/manure-match/

[RetiredAt63]

Google/ask around to see if there are organizations in your area that do soil testing -- in the Seattle area King Conservation District will test up to five samples per property for free (though heavy metals testing costs extra)

https://kingcd.org/programs/better-soils/healthy-soil/

They also run a "manure match" program!

https://kingcd.org/programs/better-soils/manure-match/

If I were worried about heavy metals (lead, arsenic, mercury) I would definitely want to have my soil tested.  Even if an area is growing ornamentals, if material from it ends up in a compost pile that then goes to a food production area, the soil would need to be tested.

It really depends on the history of the property.  I've had 5 gardens now and never had the soil tested for heavy metals, because the history just didn't warrant it.

[Abe]

Thanks for the advice! We will be installing a slightly raised deck (our backyard like most in Houston is a bit soggy), and will grow some vegetables in boxes there. We have no illusions about growing enough to feed ourselves, but it would be worth trying for the novelty.

[Trudie]

I have taken permaculture short courses and read a fair amount about regenerative small-scale agriculture.  My gardening is done on a rented city plot right now because I live in a condo — a gardener without a garden.

When I retired I devoted more time to reading, studying, and engaging with the natural world.  My dream is to eventually find a neglected city or near suburban plot that I can care for and regenerate.  I have zero desire to live in a house on it.  I just want a she-shed, hammock, and a blank canvas where I can take something unloved and transform it into a small sanctuary with trees, meadow strips, and small home vegetable production..  Some people renovate houses; I want to renovate the land.

I get reasonable production out of my current garden plot using no-dig methods.  I geek out about improving the soil.  I love to observe and I am somewhat ruled by beauty— growing masses of flowers for the pollinators and for my own enjoyment.

I have been inspired toward this dream by watching videos of Bealtine Cottage and Colette O’Neill in Ireland.  At first, I wasn’t sure what to think, but now I am mesmerized.  And philosophically, I think much of what she has to say about earth care makes sense to me.

[Linea_Norway]

Just a question about dig/no dig. I am going to make a vegetable garden at our mountain cabin in what is currently a dog pen. There hasn't been a dog for ages. There is no reason to believe that the soil is loose. Therefore I think I need to dig the first time. And then afterwards hopefully not again. If I don't need to dig, please say so. I have understood that digging breaks of mycelium in the ground and you should preferably not dig in your vegetable garden. But ai thought that for the first time, it might be smart. There are currently small trees growing which I will need to remove.

I read in a permaculture gardening handbook that you can start a vegetable garden by laying carton on the old ground. And then starting new soil on top of it. That didn't mention digging.

I am planning to do the following:
- Dig the current top layer to loosen it up
- Put a layer of carton on top of it.
- Add a layer of dead branches of trees we cut down last year to creat a sort of mini-Hügelbed.
- Add a mixture of old earth (from another part of the garden), new earth from bags, cow manure and vermiculite on top.

Then I made a plan to put the vegetables and herbs that like each other together, and the ones they dislike as far away as possible. Some of the herbs are perannials, which is more in style with permaculture.
We will put our insulated composting bin there and start making compost from kitchen scraps and maybe other material. Then hopefully, we will have good compost next autumn.

I will make a narrow enough bed that I don't need to stand on the soil.

[lhamo]

You do not need to dig!  Maybe pull the tree seedlings (or you could experiment with pulling half and cutting half off at ground level to see what happens -- different sides of the plot and record which is which so you don't forget) but otherwise you can just put a thick layer of plain cardboard (no tape, no shiny stuff) down and then top with a thick layer of well decomposed compost.

This video has two of my favorite garden gurus -- who grow in very different climates (San Diego vs. SW UK) showing the method.  Both of them have lots of other videos on their channels about the no dig method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MACArjSim00

Below is a photo of one of my beds I made with Charles' method.  As you can see from what surrounds it, this bed was formerly a thick patch of grass and weeds (creeping buttercup mostly).  I made it in mid-summer 2020 by laying down cardboard, building up the sides with pieces of old concrete, and then filling with compost.  I grew a great crop of swiss chard and mixed greens in it immediately, which mostly overwintered.  In the spring I had issues with raccoons climbing in to dig for worms and grubs so we built the fence around it.  I also found the compost to be a bit too dense/waterloggy, so I mixed in some sandy soil.  The chard, arugula and lacinato kale were all planted in the summer and this is what they looked like in September.   They have overwintered nicely (though the arugula isn't in great shape because we had an unusually deep snow followed by a week of frigid temperatures after Christmas)

[lhamo]

A screenshot from when we used a trail cam to confirm the raccoons were our vandals -- after we built the fence! It didn't do much to deter them but shortly after this their other sources of food must have increased because we didn't have as many problems with them starting a few weeks later.

This was actually taken in early May (we didn't have the date right on  the camera).  Over to the left you can see a kind of lattice structure I originally built to try to keep them out of the bed after I reworked the soil and planted some seedlings.  That worked for a couple of weeks but then they started digging between the grid spaces.  They are clever critters and determined to find their worms and grubs! (there were still tons of worms in the bed when I worked the soil in)

[Linea_Norway]

@lhamo Thanks for your answer and the picture. Then I will skip the digging and just pull out the small tree saplings.

As compost for the first year, I don't have any of my own yet. I am planning to either ask a cow farmer (cabin neighbour) directly. Alternatively dig up some of the stuff that he or another farmer has dumped outside, which is barn garbage, I think a mixture of mostly straw and cow pee. Not sure if there is any cow manure in it, I hope so. The advantage is that it is a couple of years old, so not too strong anymore. And as mentioned, I am going to mix it with other stuff. Third alternative is finding out where people live who I see walking with a horse. And ask for horse manure.

We don't have raccoons. We do have badgers who like the smell of composting bins to dig for worms, but I haven't seen any near the cabin. The vegetable area is already fenced in, as it is a dog pen. I hope that will keep the deer out.

Your garden patch looks nice and I hope mine will look a bit similar at the end of the summer. I don't expect all to survive, but we will see. I hope the stronger herbs will survive. We have winters with temperatures down to minus 30 Celsius or even colder there. And usually snow, although this year there is very little snow. I can try to split off a bit of each herb plant and let it spend the winter inside, at home.

[RetiredAt63]

@lhamo Thanks for your answer and the picture. Then I will skip the digging and just pull out the small tree saplings.

As compost for the first year, I don't have any of my own yet. I am planning to either ask a cow farmer (cabin neighbour) directly. Alternatively dig up some of the stuff that he or another farmer has dumped outside, which is barn garbage, I think a mixture of mostly straw and cow pee. Not sure if there is any cow manure in it, I hope so. The advantage is that it is a couple of years old, so not too strong anymore. And as mentioned, I am going to mix it with other stuff. Third alternative is finding out where people live who I see walking with a horse. And ask for horse manure.

We don't have raccoons. We do have badgers who like the smell of composting bins to dig for worms, but I haven't seen any near the cabin. The vegetable area is already fenced in, as it is a dog pen. I hope that will keep the deer out.

Your garden patch looks nice and I hope mine will look a bit similar at the end of the summer. I don't expect all to survive, but we will see. I hope the stronger herbs will survive. We have winters with temperatures down to minus 30 Celsius or even colder there. And usually snow, although this year there is very little snow. I can try to split off a bit of each herb plant and let it spend the winter inside, at home.

We also get temperatures down to -30C or more.  Snow is your friend, it insulates the ground, so hope you get a decent amount!  I spoke once with a gardener in Quebec City, which is colder than Montreal and Ottawa but gets more snow, and his plants overwintered better than mine did.

Basically as long as you are growing plants adapted to your area you should be fine.  And of course build up your raised beds.  I used to garden on heavy clay so I needed raised beds for drainage.  You at least don't have that problem!  You may have the opposite problem, your soil drains too well.  If you can get old starting-to-rot wood you could put it right on top of your cardboard, under all the other stuff, and do a sort of heugelculture bed.

[Linea_Norway]

@RetiredAt63 See my previous post, I plan to make a mini-hügelbed with branches from trees that we cut last year. But I will check what I can find of rotting wood otherwise. One year old branches might be too fresh.

[RetiredAt63]

@RetiredAt63 See my previous post, I plan to make a mini-hügelbed with branches from trees that we cut last year. But I will check what I can find of rotting wood otherwise. One year old branches might be too fresh.

I haven't done it myself, but from what I have seen older rotting wood is better, it has the fungi well established.  Fresh wood doesn't hold the water as well and grabs more nitrogen.  But of course one year old wood will soon be 2 and then 3 year old wood, so I imagine whatever you can find will work.

Just out of curiosity, when you say harsh condition what makes them harsh?   You are further north than I am, I think, but that means nice long summer days for the plants.  Lack of rain?  Strong winds all summer?  My last house was next to farm fields and the winds were consistent and strong - but a hedge solved that after a few years.  White Cedar (arborvitae, not true cedar) is a popular hedge plant here because it survives nicely in really crummy growing conditions.

I do get a bit envious when I watch southern American gardeners on YouTube who have winter gardens - but then their summers are brutal and they have a lot more pests and diseases than I have to deal with, so my envy is very short-lived.   ;-)  Of course here it is -12^oC right now, going to -24^oC with a wind chill of -33^oC tonight!

[Linea_Norway]

@RetiredAt63 See my previous post, I plan to make a mini-hügelbed with branches from trees that we cut last year. But I will check what I can find of rotting wood otherwise. One year old branches might be too fresh.

I haven't done it myself, but from what I have seen older rotting wood is better, it has the fungi well established.  Fresh wood doesn't hold the water as well and grabs more nitrogen.  But of course one year old wood will soon be 2 and then 3 year old wood, so I imagine whatever you can find will work.

Just out of curiosity, when you say harsh condition what makes them harsh?   You are further north than I am, I think, but that means nice long summer days for the plants.  Lack of rain?  Strong winds all summer?  My last house was next to farm fields and the winds were consistent and strong - but a hedge solved that after a few years.  White Cedar (arborvitae, not true cedar) is a popular hedge plant here because it survives nicely in really crummy growing conditions.

I do get a bit envious when I watch southern American gardeners on YouTube who have winter gardens - but then their summers are brutal and they have a lot more pests and diseases than I have to deal with, so my envy is very short-lived.   ;-)  Of course here it is -12^oC right now, going to -24^oC with a wind chill of -33^oC tonight!

The conditions are harsh in that it is at 650 meters above sea level. The only trees that grow there are pines, juniper and birch, and a few planted spruces. It is peaty and sandy terrain. The layer of soil is only about 10-25 cm thick, below is only sand or stones. Farmers in the area only grow grass for their cattle, as it doesn't pay off to grow anything else. Norway has a table for how furtile different parts of the country are, H1 to H 8. This area is H8. We have long summer days at 62 degrees north, but the frost free season is very short. And it is as far inland in Norway as you can get, with lots of mountains in between, so little sea climate there. We often make our last skiing trip in May. I think we are talking July when it is frost free at night.

But I don't think it is worse than the coldest areas in Canada. All is relative.

[RetiredAt63]

@RetiredAt63 See my previous post, I plan to make a mini-hügelbed with branches from trees that we cut last year. But I will check what I can find of rotting wood otherwise. One year old branches might be too fresh.

I haven't done it myself, but from what I have seen older rotting wood is better, it has the fungi well established.  Fresh wood doesn't hold the water as well and grabs more nitrogen.  But of course one year old wood will soon be 2 and then 3 year old wood, so I imagine whatever you can find will work.

Just out of curiosity, when you say harsh condition what makes them harsh?   You are further north than I am, I think, but that means nice long summer days for the plants.  Lack of rain?  Strong winds all summer?  My last house was next to farm fields and the winds were consistent and strong - but a hedge solved that after a few years.  White Cedar (arborvitae, not true cedar) is a popular hedge plant here because it survives nicely in really crummy growing conditions.

I do get a bit envious when I watch southern American gardeners on YouTube who have winter gardens - but then their summers are brutal and they have a lot more pests and diseases than I have to deal with, so my envy is very short-lived.   ;-)  Of course here it is -12^oC right now, going to -24^oC with a wind chill of -33^oC tonight!

The conditions are harsh in that it is at 650 meters above sea level. The only trees that grow there are pines, juniper and birch, and a few planted spruces. It is peaty and sandy terrain. The layer of soil is only about 10-25 cm thick, below is only sand or stones. Farmers in the area only grow grass for their cattle, as it doesn't pay off to grow anything else. Norway has a table for how furtile different parts of the country are, H1 to H 8. This area is H8. We have long summer days at 62 degrees north, but the frost free season is very short. And it is as far inland in Norway as you can get, with lots of mountains in between, so little sea climate there. We often make our last skiing trip in May. I think we are talking July when it is frost free at night.

But I don't think it is worse than the coldest areas in Canada. All is relative.

Here we have good soil because we were an inland sea for several thousand years after the glaciers melted.  Further north the soil is only a few inches thick (over rock or sand or other glacial remnants), and like you mostly conifers.  Not much farming, and only in river valleys where the soil has accumulated, otherwise grazing/hay (not a lot) and forestry.  We range from about 45 m to 540 m above sea level, again the high parts are also not fertile.  Ottawa is just about 45^o north so a longer growing season, winter days not as short, summer days not as long.  I was in Edmonton once (53.6^oN) and was amazed at how long the summer days are there.

My province goes far enough north that northern Ontario is tundra, not boreal forest. No gardening there.  ;-(