I built and sold a multimillion dollar business

[nottheturkey]

I've been reading this site for some time now, and it feels like there isn't quite enough time spent on big payouts.

I started an online business with $200. Worked my tail off over a decade part time. Grew it to millions in sales per year. Filed taxes on over $700k in earnings many years. Sold it for 7 figures. I had no background in this. I did it part time with employees. Not even close to my education. Just a whole lot of work, little sleep, and luck.

Now, I wish I had been a little smarter with the money along the way, but it's easy to get lazy when the cash is rolling in. I've got a different mindset now for the next business. And I have two started recently.

Moral is, I think if some of the time spent trying to figure out how to cut another $5 from the budget could be funneled over to the other side of the equation, people would have an easier time saving even more.

[zazpowered]

What kind of business was it?

[SeattleCPA]

I agree with Nottheturkey.

Entrepreneurial results reflect power law dynamics... Being just a little bit better often means enjoying way, way better outcomes.

I did a blog post a few months ago arguing this point: Small Business Power Law Dynamics: Secret to Jacking Profitability

And a related comment : I always question the notion of making your financial plan work by getting a side hustle and earning a bit of extra coin. What makes more sense to me is go big. Do something for your employer that means you get a $10K or $20K raise. Or more. Or move to a new employer where you get a 50% bump in wages. Or more.

If none of those possibilities are real, learn some new high value skill anyway you can. Or start your own business.

Final comment about this: I have promoted the idea among small CPA firm owners (who almost always work really hard and usually for not anymore money than they'd make working for someone else as a senior accountant) that doubling their business profits isn't that hard and that the roadmap for how you do this is actually pretty accessible. Here's my argument for that position: Small CPA Firm Profitability.

[SC93]

I've been reading this site for some time now, and it feels like there isn't quite enough time spent on big payouts.

I started an online business with $200. Worked my tail off over a decade part time. Grew it to millions in sales per year. Filed taxes on over $700k in earnings many years. Sold it for 7 figures. I had no background in this. I did it part time with employees. Not even close to my education. Just a whole lot of work, little sleep, and luck.

Now, I wish I had been a little smarter with the money along the way, but it's easy to get lazy when the cash is rolling in. I've got a different mindset now for the next business. And I have two started recently.

Moral is, I think if some of the time spent trying to figure out how to cut another $5 from the budget could be funneled over to the other side of the equation, people would have an easier time saving even more.

Sorry buddy, not many here are interested in making real money. It seems as though a lot are worried about cutting that $5 from their budget and thinking they did a great thing. Granted, there are some here that are interested in making money instead of cutting the budget. Personally, I don't like to cut the budget, I like to add income. Good luck!

[sol]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

[SeattleCPA]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

Sol, I don't disagree with you... but if someone can spend five or ten hours a week on a side hustle and make $2K a year or spend that same five or ten hours a week and make $20K a year, I think they need to look at the better paying option.

BTW, you and me both agree that if that $20K option involves dealing heroin to the neighborhood kids, that's a bad choice.

But maybe it's not like that. I observe among my CPA brothers and sisters that many work way, way too hard simply doing stuff the wrong way or doing the wrong stuff.

[SC93]

Sure are a lot of threads about making money, how much money people make and people wanting to do extra work to make more money to not be about money.

[Telecaster]

I own my own business, and couldn't go back to working for the man.   I've had buyout offers a couple of times.  "Buyout" in my field means I'd have to work for the buyer for a few years.   Can't do it, so I get the appeal of entrepreneurism. 

But it isn't for everybody.   I had to eat Alpo for a few years, and fortunately I was willing and able to keep my personal expenses low during the lean years.  But not everybody is willing or able to do that. 

I'd love to hear what the OP did, as well. 

[robartsd]

I've been reading this site for some time now, and it feels like there isn't quite enough time spent on big payouts.

I started an online business with $200. Worked my tail off over a decade part time. Grew it to millions in sales per year. Filed taxes on over $700k in earnings many years. Sold it for 7 figures. I had no background in this. I did it part time with employees. Not even close to my education. Just a whole lot of work, little sleep, and luck.

Now, I wish I had been a little smarter with the money along the way, but it's easy to get lazy when the cash is rolling in. I've got a different mindset now for the next business. And I have two started recently.

Moral is, I think if some of the time spent trying to figure out how to cut another $5 from the budget could be funneled over to the other side of the equation, people would have an easier time saving even more.

Sorry buddy, not many here are interested in making real money.

Yep, if I sold a business for 7 figures I'd stop worrying about making money.

Certainly figuring out how to make more money can be a bigger win for FI for many people, that's why it is often suggested here as a path for those currently making less than median income on these forums. On the other hand, someone making a few multiples of median income can reach FI much faster and easier by choosing to live frugally than they can by working to increase income.

[BlueHouse]

Congratulations, that is fantastic. 

When I started my small business, I set it up to grow, forming it as a corporation and paying more up front so that "when" I hired employees, I'd be ready to go.  I hit a roadblock with my #1 customer due to a security clearance issue, which basically stopped me from hiring anyone else for a few years.  I thought long and hard about whether to leave that customer so I wouldn't be barred from growing my business.  Finally, one family member put it this way:  "What do you want to do with this business?  Do you want to grow an empire and hire many people and eventually sell it off?  Or do you just want to make a very good living for yourself for a while?  And how much effort are you willing to put into working on one vs. the other? 

Turns out, that by the time I was asked this question, it was easier for me to answer that I didn't want the headache of employees, or searching for additional business.  My job is pretty cushy.  Some would even say it's easy.  It's 5 minutes from home and it's allowing me to stash away more than I ever thought I would on a yearly basis. 

So for me, I'm now focused on keeping the cushy job and cutting extraneous spending, but like you, I'm always thinking of "the next thing".  I enjoy being creative and thinking up new business ideas whether or not they ever come to fruition. 

[TVRodriguez]

Congrats to the OP!  Happy for you.

I'm one of those who is not really interested in making more money.  I make enough.  I am interested in using the time I have each week to do the things I want to do.  That includes time to do nothing.  "More money faster" does not really interest me. 

SeattleCPA, I looked at your blog post, and I can see some of what you're saying.  But I see it and think I have a different definition of a successful small business.  This whole thread reminded me of what I thought of the guys I left behind in BigLaw: "good for them, but it's not for me."

[sol]

if someone can spend five or ten hours a week on a side hustle and make $2K a year or spend that same five or ten hours a week and make $20K a year, I think they need to look at the better paying option.

You're still focusing on "more" as if that will solve their problem.  The distinction is not between making 2k or 20k, it's between being a slave to your consumption or learning to value something other than fancy houses and cars, like your health or your family or your spirit.

Virtually everyone who looks at their life and says "this would all be so much better if only I had more money" is still caught in the suffering delusion.  Advertising teaches you that happiness can be bought, and most of us never question that message, but it is a delusion.  Your discontent is not caused by a lack of spending freely, it is caused by your inability to let go of your ridiculous desires.  If you have a reliable car, a new one will not make you happy.  If your home is warm and dry and has running water, your physical person is secure, and you have abundant food to eat, then you are already better off than 95% of humans who have ever lived.  Why do we, with all of this good fortune, still feel like we're constantly on the brink of disaster and need a fancy new blender in order to sleep well at night? 

You've already won the game!  If you are already at or near the median American family income, then magically doubling your income would make virtually no difference!  You think it would be awesome, because we are conditioned by television to equate wanton spending with happiness and security and success, but the reality does not align with the glitzy commercials.  Satisfied desires are only replaced by new desires.

I know lots of unhappy rich people.  The happiest people I have ever meet have all been desperately poor.  They do not aspire to wealth and comfort, but strong families and good sleep and pleasant weather and satisfaction in hard work that they never expect to materially change their circumstances.  They are happy because they value what they have, tragic changes and all,  and do not desire something different. 

That's the message of MMM that I see in the blog.  Spending more will not help you, if you think it is the path to happiness.  You will spend it all and just be broke and insecure again.  Instead, live below your means by valuing security, flexibility, efficiency, and opportunity more than you value spending money.  Money "in the bank" is all of those things, but money spent is none of them.

This is why I said the site is really about controlling your relationship with money.  Earning more money won't help anyone until they've first shifted their perspective.  We have lots of new members who still think this is a get rich quick scheme, and who don't understand that frugality is an ends, not a means.

[bwall]

You've already won the game!  If you are already at or near the median American family income, then magically doubling your income would make virtually no difference!  You think it would be awesome, because we are conditioned by television to equate wanton spending with happiness and security and success, but the reality does not align with the glitzy commercials.  Satisfied desires are only replaced by new desires.

This is why I said the site is really about controlling your relationship with money.  Earning more money won't help anyone until they've first shifted their perspective.  We have lots of new members who still think this is a get rich quick scheme, and who don't understand that frugality is an ends, not a means.

Sadly, I know many people who view money left in their bank account at the end of their life as a form of 'foregone pleasure'. I couldn't disagree more.

[SeattleCPA]

if someone can spend five or ten hours a week on a side hustle and make $2K a year or spend that same five or ten hours a week and make $20K a year, I think they need to look at the better paying option.

You're still focusing on "more" as if that will solve their problem.  The distinction is not between making 2k or 20k, it's between being a slave to your consumption or learning to value something other than fancy houses and cars, like your health or your family or your spirit.

Virtually everyone who looks at their life and says "this would all be so much better if only I had more money" is still caught in the suffering delusion.  Advertising teaches you that happiness can be bought, and most of us never question that message, but it is a delusion.  Your discontent is not caused by a lack of spending freely, it is caused by your inability to let go of your ridiculous desires.  If you have a reliable car, a new one will not make you happy.  If your home is warm and dry and has running water, your physical person is secure, and you have abundant food to eat, then you are already better off than 95% of humans who have ever lived.  Why do we, with all of this good fortune, still feel like we're constantly on the brink of disaster and need a fancy new blender in order to sleep well at night? 

You've already won the game!  If you are already at or near the median American family income, then magically doubling your income would make virtually no difference!  You think it would be awesome, because we are conditioned by television to equate wanton spending with happiness and security and success, but the reality does not align with the glitzy commercials.  Satisfied desires are only replaced by new desires.

I know lots of unhappy rich people.  The happiest people I have ever meet have all been desperately poor.  They do not aspire to wealth and comfort, but strong families and good sleep and pleasant weather and satisfaction in hard work that they never expect to materially change their circumstances.  They are happy because they value what they have, tragic changes and all,  and do not desire something different. 

That's the message of MMM that I see in the blog.  Spending more will not help you, if you think it is the path to happiness.  You will spend it all and just be broke and insecure again.  Instead, live below your means by valuing security, flexibility, efficiency, and opportunity more than you value spending money.  Money "in the bank" is all of those things, but money spent is none of them.

This is why I said the site is really about controlling your relationship with money.  Earning more money won't help anyone until they've first shifted their perspective.  We have lots of new members who still think this is a get rich quick scheme, and who don't understand that frugality is an ends, not a means.

Sol, seriously, i don't disagree with you. Except for one little part... maybe. I think whatever someone trades their labor for, they want to maximize what they receive.

Doing something smarter so instead of $2K you get $20K makes a difference. You can achieve FI more quickly. Or you give the money away.

[Gone Fishing]

Glad it worked out!  Several times I contemplated starting my own business, but never did. 

Here are the main reasons why:

Long hours.  I was able to FIRE after 12 years of working 40 hour, 8:30-5:30, M-F weeks.
Sick leave.  My wife and I both suffered serious health problems early in our careers.  Thankfully our corporate jobs kept paying and waited for us to get better. 
Concentration.  I was able to invest in thousands of companies instead of one.
Failure rates.  I think the stat is somewhere around 90% of startups fail.
Exit.  As a previous poster mentioned, it can take years to remove yourself from a business. I gave a 30 day notice and walked.

 Over the course of my career, I was fortunate to meet and speak with many successful entrepreneurs.   I discovered that the skill set needed for success is relatively rare.  There are very few people That can pull it off.  On the other hand, megacorp jobs are relatively plentiful and available to the masses-the MMM target audience.  There are many paths to FIRE, entrepreneurship is certainly one of them, hats off to you for making it happen!

[nottheturkey]

Thanks to all for the replies. Especially to a newbie's 2nd post. I came here to be challenged, and to challenge. I think there are some very interesting responses.

I guess I should give a bit more about my story. While I've always had an itch to create, and have had other failed businesses in the past, this one I stumbled into by accident. It was a hobby that turned into a business without much thought behind it. But when I realized what I had, I put a lot of effort into it. It was a pretty typical ecommerce business. I'd rather not say too much about it, because my story is out there, and I'd like to maintain some anonymity here, so I can talk my personal financials without worry.

I'm not extreme on my thinking, either. In fact, as I've challenged my spending habits, my family has easily cut over $1500 per month without much thought at all. It's amazing how many auto payments stick around and add up. Also made a few easy cuts on things we weren't even using, so I understand that side of the equation is important. Back of the napkin calculations, I could easily have another $500k in net worth if I had paid more attention to this for the past 10 years. And I'm sure there is easily another grand that could be cut without too much pain. But I get to the point where I run into...

I'm not a material consumer so much as an experience consumer. I've traveled all over the world and taken my family along for much of it. I wouldn't want to postpone that, especially during formative years of my kids. We also love to ski and take many trips per year. Etc... And yes, there are other rewarding experiences that cost less or nothing, but that doesn't mean I don't value the costly experiences either.

I quickly get to the point where the time spent working on cutting costs could easily be put into making additional money. And this doesn't have to be a direct trade for hours either. Shoot, look at all the MMM-ish blogs out there. They aren't all doing it to be nice. There is income associate with it. Yes, it takes time, but it can scale, and scale significantly.

I also can't get my head around the levels to which some people go to get this "freedom" when it means sacrificing basics, such as food. I've read the thread about lowering the food bill, and while I get the fact that you may be creating more freedom of time, you've killed the freedom with food. I'd happily trade a few hours of work for higher quality food options.

In regards to the risk of failure. Yes, that is probable. It was my biggest concern when we had a large portion of our net worth in it. But I started with $200. The downside risk was very well understood and capped. The upside risk was unlimited. Before I even read Taleb (hence, the username), I already had issues with investments that have limited upside with complete loss as a downside. It's what's kept me in cash for so long. You all would cringe at my cash to investments ratio. But I'm too scared to lose it, even in the market, although I do have half a million there from a 401k. I'd rather risk it on myself, then someone else I don't know or can't control. So my side businesses are income, but also my investment vehicle of choice.

Also, still have the 8-5. I could retire, easily in LCOL areas, but I'd drive myself crazy not doing something. I'm already doing what I love to do, and if I wasn't doing it at this company, would probably start a similar one in the same industry. So maybe I'm blessed to not hate going to work and maybe that's why I don't find the frugal badassity as enticing as others.

[nottheturkey]

if someone can spend five or ten hours a week on a side hustle and make $2K a year or spend that same five or ten hours a week and make $20K a year, I think they need to look at the better paying option.

You're still focusing on "more" as if that will solve their problem.  The distinction is not between making 2k or 20k, it's between being a slave to your consumption or learning to value something other than fancy houses and cars, like your health or your family or your spirit.

Virtually everyone who looks at their life and says "this would all be so much better if only I had more money" is still caught in the suffering delusion.  Advertising teaches you that happiness can be bought, and most of us never question that message, but it is a delusion.  Your discontent is not caused by a lack of spending freely, it is caused by your inability to let go of your ridiculous desires.  If you have a reliable car, a new one will not make you happy.  If your home is warm and dry and has running water, your physical person is secure, and you have abundant food to eat, then you are already better off than 95% of humans who have ever lived.  Why do we, with all of this good fortune, still feel like we're constantly on the brink of disaster and need a fancy new blender in order to sleep well at night? 

You've already won the game!  If you are already at or near the median American family income, then magically doubling your income would make virtually no difference!  You think it would be awesome, because we are conditioned by television to equate wanton spending with happiness and security and success, but the reality does not align with the glitzy commercials.  Satisfied desires are only replaced by new desires.

I know lots of unhappy rich people.  The happiest people I have ever meet have all been desperately poor.  They do not aspire to wealth and comfort, but strong families and good sleep and pleasant weather and satisfaction in hard work that they never expect to materially change their circumstances.  They are happy because they value what they have, tragic changes and all,  and do not desire something different. 

That's the message of MMM that I see in the blog.  Spending more will not help you, if you think it is the path to happiness.  You will spend it all and just be broke and insecure again.  Instead, live below your means by valuing security, flexibility, efficiency, and opportunity more than you value spending money.  Money "in the bank" is all of those things, but money spent is none of them.

This is why I said the site is really about controlling your relationship with money.  Earning more money won't help anyone until they've first shifted their perspective.  We have lots of new members who still think this is a get rich quick scheme, and who don't understand that frugality is an ends, not a means.

I wanted to respond to your comment directly. I agree, being a slave to your consumption is not a healthy relationship with money. Totally agree with living below your means and valuing security, flexibility, efficiency and opportunity. But what I think I see too often here is that there is only one solution to the problem. Just because you don't value the things I value, doesn't mean one of us is right and the other wrong. I have none of your concerns. My health is good. I sleep well. I coach my kids sports teams. I help them with their school work. I volunteer at church. I tackle substantial home improvement projects around the house. I sit around the fire pit and drink wine with friends. I take lots of vacation every year. Maybe I decided to work more on the income side of the equation, but that was my decision. It wasn't required of me. I didn't make consumption decision first and then was forced to find a way to afford it. I've made the decision what I wanted to afford and then found a way to earn the money to then do so.

And yes, I know lots of unhappy rich. I also know lots of happy rich. I also know happy and unhappy poor. I don't know what the statistics are, but we're talking a pretty small number of data points here to make generalizations.

[SC93]

I think we are related. lol We have most of ours in cash as well. Putting much money at all in the stock market scares me more than anything in the world. I'd much rather take a chance on my buddy and invest $100k on a used car lot with him than put $1 in the stock market.

I think the working public don't realize that even after we become a multimillionaire, we still get bored. Everyone is going to be doing something so why not work and why not make as much as possible? I don't have a fancy house. We only paid $200,000. We could have bought a $20 million house if we wanted. My wife wanted a CRV so that's what we bought her. I have a 2003 Dodge work van. I did have fancy cars but I never drove them so I sold them. We are tempted to buy a $10,000 old truck to drive around in but we never drive around!! lol So unlike most people with money and splurging on everything, we haven't bought one. And we aren't being greedy like some think, why not put people to work and in the process make more money to invest in other businesses to put more people to work. All of my time isn't spent in my small appliance business making money. Hell, I make more from the businesses that I have a partner in and never even do anything in them. Earning more money WILL help some but only those that respect and know how to treat money. It will get them to the point I am at much faster and then, if their head is right, they can just enjoy every day. If their head isn't right, then nothing is going to help until/if they get their head right. Unhappy rich or poor people are the people that don't have their head right..... yet. It's just the way of the world.

[ender]

You're still focusing on "more" as if that will solve their problem.  The distinction is not between making 2k or 20k, it's between being a slave to your consumption or learning to value something other than fancy houses and cars, like your health or your family or your spirit.

Virtually everyone who looks at their life and says "this would all be so much better if only I had more money" is still caught in the suffering delusion.  Advertising teaches you that happiness can be bought, and most of us never question that message, but it is a delusion.  Your discontent is not caused by a lack of spending freely, it is caused by your inability to let go of your ridiculous desires.  If you have a reliable car, a new one will not make you happy.  If your home is warm and dry and has running water, your physical person is secure, and you have abundant food to eat, then you are already better off than 95% of humans who have ever lived.  Why do we, with all of this good fortune, still feel like we're constantly on the brink of disaster and need a fancy new blender in order to sleep well at night? 

You've already won the game!  If you are already at or near the median American family income, then magically doubling your income would make virtually no difference!  You think it would be awesome, because we are conditioned by television to equate wanton spending with happiness and security and success, but the reality does not align with the glitzy commercials.  Satisfied desires are only replaced by new desires.

I know lots of unhappy rich people.  The happiest people I have ever meet have all been desperately poor.  They do not aspire to wealth and comfort, but strong families and good sleep and pleasant weather and satisfaction in hard work that they never expect to materially change their circumstances.  They are happy because they value what they have, tragic changes and all,  and do not desire something different. 

That's the message of MMM that I see in the blog.  Spending more will not help you, if you think it is the path to happiness.  You will spend it all and just be broke and insecure again.  Instead, live below your means by valuing security, flexibility, efficiency, and opportunity more than you value spending money.  Money "in the bank" is all of those things, but money spent is none of them.

This is why I said the site is really about controlling your relationship with money.  Earning more money won't help anyone until they've first shifted their perspective.  We have lots of new members who still think this is a get rich quick scheme, and who don't understand that frugality is an ends, not a means.

While I get where you are coming from, the OP has a point. If you need $1M to retire early and live the frugal "MMM approved" lifestyle, earning a much bigger amount of money more quickly is a viable option and one this forum rather scorns.

It is in fact possible to push to increase income and not increase spending...

It's also worth pointing out it's just as easy to idolize money making $40k/year as it is $400k/year.

[TVRodriguez]

Sol, seriously, i don't disagree with you. Except for one little part... maybe. I think whatever someone trades their labor for, they want to maximize what they receive.

For some of us, what we receive in exchange for our work is not just money.  I get enjoyment out of my work.  I could earn more money, but I don't know that I would be happier day-by-day.  I also enjoy knowing that I have a stash of money sitting waiting for me if I stop getting enjoyment out of that work or if my health fails.

[SeattleCPA]

Sol, seriously, i don't disagree with you. Except for one little part... maybe. I think whatever someone trades their labor for, they want to maximize what they receive.

For some of us, what we receive in exchange for our work is not just money.  I get enjoyment out of my work.  I could earn more money, but I don't know that I would be happier day-by-day.  I also enjoy knowing that I have a stash of money sitting waiting for me if I stop getting enjoyment out of that work or if my health fails.

Good point. Totally agree.

[BlueHouse]

Sol, seriously, i don't disagree with you. Except for one little part... maybe. I think whatever someone trades their labor for, they want to maximize what they receive.

For some of us, what we receive in exchange for our work is not just money.  I get enjoyment out of my work.  I could earn more money, but I don't know that I would be happier day-by-day.  I also enjoy knowing that I have a stash of money sitting waiting for me if I stop getting enjoyment out of that work or if my health fails.

Once I have enough money and am at or close to FI, I am strongly considering taking a much lower paying position that offers healthcare for life (even with me having to pay for it) to get in a group plan.  I would have to work a minimum of 5 more years to qualify for healthcare benefits for life.  But Healthcare is just too much of a wildcard and I am not comfortable letting Paul Ryan decide on my future well being. 

[MrThatsDifferent]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

I really like this, beautiful post Sol.

[frugal_c]

nottheturkey,

Good on you.  I have never started a successful business but I can imagine it is very satisfying.  I know I get a certain type of high out of finishing home renovation projects so I imagine it is something similar but likely much more rewarding.  There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, all of us investors rely on entrpreneurs to start businesses that grow the economy.

Since we want to debate what this site is all about, this is what the man himself, MMM says in the opening of his first blog post:

This is a blog about money. We’re going to cover a lot of ground and make plenty of amusing side trips into lifestyle and culture issues, but when it boils down to it, we are talking about money, and the freedom it can give you.

[nottheturkey]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

Sorry I seemed to have missed your post. While I may be new, you know nothing about me. I've read at least a third of the blog posts word for word. I've sent blog posts to my wife to discuss. I've debated the merits of ideas of this site with friends. I've been lurking on the forum since the middle of last year. I waited until I got a pretty good idea of what's going on before registering precisely because I didn't want to look like an idiot. So I read your comments somewhat like the political zealots that claim everyone that disagrees with them as "ignorant." My eyes are plenty open. And I actually find a lot of what is discussed here very interesting and very beneficial. I just don't agree with everything. Does that mean alternative viewpoints aren't accepted and I should find somewhere else to discuss these topics? Or is there some tolerance where everyone is willing to challenge and be challenged?

I don't spend more than I earn. I'm not more broke than before with nicer things. I'm not on a treadmill and won't be until I die. I'm not eternally chasing higher income. My only debt is a mortgage I could pay off tomorrow. I could retire if I wanted to. But I don't want to. And it's not because I'm chasing something I'll never obtain. Like I said, you know very little of why I make the decisions I do.

Earning money isn't evil. Why is someone making $50k a year better than someone making $500k a year (all else being equal)? Who gets to decide when you've passed the threshold of what's acceptable? What if I want to bless others and I can do more of that with higher incomes? What if I want to save the world from a disease and get rewarded for doing so? Why does frugality trump all other values?

I thought the point was pretty simple. Save a high percentage of what you make, build investments that cover your living expenses. Retire/work because you want to. That can happen at any income/net worth level. I'll admit it may have a higher chance of success/easier to focus on the frugality side of the equation, but it's not the only way.

[nottheturkey]

nottheturkey,

Good on you.  I have never started a successful business but I can imagine it is very satisfying.  I know I get a certain type of high out of finishing home renovation projects so I imagine it is something similar but likely much more rewarding.  There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, all of us investors rely on entrpreneurs to start businesses that grow the economy.

Since we want to debate what this site is all about, this is what the man himself, MMM says in the opening of his first blog post:

This is a blog about money. We’re going to cover a lot of ground and make plenty of amusing side trips into lifestyle and culture issues, but when it boils down to it, we are talking about money, and the freedom it can give you.

Well, that certainly helps frame the discussion.

And yes it's a high. Very much so. Doing it, building it from nothing to the point where someone was willing to acquire it, was deeply gratifying. More so than the financial benefits, actually. I've always had the entrepreneur bug, and dreamt about it since I was a boy. to prove that I could do it. I want to do it again to prove to myself that I can do it again. That it wasn't one time dumb luck.

[MrDelane]

So much discussion yet the first question asked was never answered (unless I missed it).  What kind of business was it?

I realize for the most part that doesn't matter to the points being discussed, but why is it every time people discuss their online businesses on here they are shrouded in mystery?

[Kyle B]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

Sorry I seemed to have missed your post. While I may be new, you know nothing about me. I've read at least a third of the blog posts word for word. I've sent blog posts to my wife to discuss. I've debated the merits of ideas of this site with friends. I've been lurking on the forum since the middle of last year. I waited until I got a pretty good idea of what's going on before registering precisely because I didn't want to look like an idiot. So I read your comments somewhat like the political zealots that claim everyone that disagrees with them as "ignorant." My eyes are plenty open. And I actually find a lot of what is discussed here very interesting and very beneficial. I just don't agree with everything. Does that mean alternative viewpoints aren't accepted and I should find somewhere else to discuss these topics? Or is there some tolerance where everyone is willing to challenge and be challenged?

I don't spend more than I earn. I'm not more broke than before with nicer things. I'm not on a treadmill and won't be until I die. I'm not eternally chasing higher income. My only debt is a mortgage I could pay off tomorrow. I could retire if I wanted to. But I don't want to. And it's not because I'm chasing something I'll never obtain. Like I said, you know very little of why I make the decisions I do.

Earning money isn't evil. Why is someone making $50k a year better than someone making $500k a year (all else being equal)? Who gets to decide when you've passed the threshold of what's acceptable? What if I want to bless others and I can do more of that with higher incomes? What if I want to save the world from a disease and get rewarded for doing so? Why does frugality trump all other values?

I thought the point was pretty simple. Save a high percentage of what you make, build investments that cover your living expenses. Retire/work because you want to. That can happen at any income/net worth level. I'll admit it may have a higher chance of success/easier to focus on the frugality side of the equation, but it's not the only way.

Beautifully said.

It's weird that people are coming into the Entrepreneurship sub-board to condescend to you for succeeding at business. Their virtue-signalling is not hiding their jealousy as well as they think. (And likening your business to selling heroin to children is disgusting -- simply beyond the pale.)  Sol almost got himself banned last week by Pete Adeney (Mr. Money Mustache) for bad-mouthing Adeney for running what Sol decided was too many ads. So in being crapped-on... you're in good company, lol.

I hope you don't let yourself get deterred from continuing to post.

[bwall]

So much discussion yet the first question asked was never answered (unless I missed it).  What kind of business was it?

I realize for the most part that doesn't matter to the points being discussed, but why is it every time people discuss their online businesses on here they are shrouded in mystery?

I'm also curious to know what kind of a business it was.

[Dicey]

I saw this thread the first day. I immediately finished the title with "...and you can too." Then I saw the OP had only two posts. I smelled troll. I also noticed OP was coy about what he did to earn his reported millions. More troll smell. Then OP expresses that he has no desire to retire early, and I again question his motive. I decided to let it ride for a few days.

Three days later, I see nothing to disprove my initial assessment. "nottheturkey" is clearly not the second coming he seems to be angling to prove he is. Sorry, sir, you may have lurked here for months, but opening an account, making a single post, then publishing this screed isn't going to generate a lot of traction for whatever it is you're trying to sell. At least not to this crowd. Further, other than your very first post, you have not commented on any other thread. I still smell that troll smell.

[Dicey]

It's weird that people are coming into the Entrepreneurship sub-board to condescend to you for succeeding at business.
What's even weirder is having a couple of brand new forum members 'splaining how things work around here.

Their virtue-signalling is not hiding their jealousy as well as they think. See previous response. "Virtue Signalling" is the whole point of the MMM and by extension, this forum.

(And likening your business to selling heroin to children is disgusting -- simply beyond the pale.)  A great analogy makes a point succinctly. Sol nailed it. You're right, there's nothing pale about black and white.

Sol almost got himself banned last week by Pete Adeney (Mr. Money Mustache) for bad-mouthing Adeney for running what Sol decided was too many ads. Did you read the whole thread? Your version of the events barely reflects what actually transpired. You completely forgot to mention that Pete apologized to Sol during their civilized discourse.

So in being crapped-on... you're in good company, lol. While many of us long-timers enjoy helping others on their journey to FIRE, especially newcomers, comments like this do nothing to add to the conversation. If you and the OP are such good company, but don't believe in FIRE, maybe you can start your own program. Oh, wait...

I hope you don't let yourself get deterred from continuing to post.Agreed. Posts that contribute to the FIRE discussion and help others reach their goals are always welcome.

[BlueHouse]

A big part of the reason that this site focuses on financial independence through frugality is that the site isn't really about money.  It's a lifestyle blog about happiness and efficiency and sustainability.  Chasing higher income provides none of that.

You can also make a lot of money selling heroin to kids in your community.  You can get filthy rich!  Quickly!  Would that make you happy?  Would it make the world a better place?  What is it that you really want out of life?

Financial independence is a tool.  The site presents an actionable plan for achieving control of your money by controlling your relationship with money.  Always aspiring to more more more means never achieving anything, just running on the treadmill until you die.  You can always spend more than you earn, no matter how much you improve your income, and you'd end up just as broke as you were before but with nicer things.  The key is to realize that your happiness is not dependent on those things at all, so desperately clawing for more won't bring you any peace.

Every time someone new shows up and asks the "why not earn more" question, we all immediately know that person hasn't really read the blog yet.  Or has skimmed it but so grossly misconstrued the message that they got everything exactly backwards, and yet still decided to jump into the community forum with their malformed understanding on full display, consequences be damned.  That's probably not the kind of person who is ready to have their eyes opened yet.

Like so many other things in life, true prosperity is the kind of thing you have to earn, and then when you have earned it you find that you no longer need it.

Sorry I seemed to have missed your post. While I may be new, you know nothing about me. I've read at least a third of the blog posts word for word. I've sent blog posts to my wife to discuss. I've debated the merits of ideas of this site with friends. I've been lurking on the forum since the middle of last year. I waited until I got a pretty good idea of what's going on before registering precisely because I didn't want to look like an idiot. So I read your comments somewhat like the political zealots that claim everyone that disagrees with them as "ignorant." My eyes are plenty open. And I actually find a lot of what is discussed here very interesting and very beneficial. I just don't agree with everything. Does that mean alternative viewpoints aren't accepted and I should find somewhere else to discuss these topics? Or is there some tolerance where everyone is willing to challenge and be challenged?

I don't spend more than I earn. I'm not more broke than before with nicer things. I'm not on a treadmill and won't be until I die. I'm not eternally chasing higher income. My only debt is a mortgage I could pay off tomorrow. I could retire if I wanted to. But I don't want to. And it's not because I'm chasing something I'll never obtain. Like I said, you know very little of why I make the decisions I do.

Earning money isn't evil. Why is someone making $50k a year better than someone making $500k a year (all else being equal)? Who gets to decide when you've passed the threshold of what's acceptable? What if I want to bless others and I can do more of that with higher incomes? What if I want to save the world from a disease and get rewarded for doing so? Why does frugality trump all other values?

I thought the point was pretty simple. Save a high percentage of what you make, build investments that cover your living expenses. Retire/work because you want to. That can happen at any income/net worth level. I'll admit it may have a higher chance of success/easier to focus on the frugality side of the equation, but it's not the only way.

Beautifully said.

It's weird that people are coming into the Entrepreneurship sub-board to condescend to you for succeeding at business. Their virtue-signalling is not hiding their jealousy as well as they think. (And likening your business to selling heroin to children is disgusting -- simply beyond the pale.)  Sol almost got himself banned last week by Pete Adeney (Mr. Money Mustache) for bad-mouthing Adeney for running what Sol decided was too many ads. So in being crapped-on... you're in good company, lol.

I hope you don't let yourself get deterred from continuing to post.

Sol usually has really well-thought-out advice and he's blunt about it -- taking face-punching to a new level!  My first post was a case study and while all the responses were very helpful, I was still in denial about my spending.  It was Sol who really opened my eyes to the truth.  His exact words were:

....Your savings rate is abysmal because your spending rate is stupid. You've made it look like you, as a single person, need to spend 10 times what the MMM family spends for three people.  You do not.  Your expenses are out of control and until you fix that, you will not be able to retire, early or otherwise...

Oof.  That hurt, but it hit home.  And it changed my behavior.  The following year I had a 71% savings rate. 

I'm not going to tell you what the point of the blog is, because there are far more people who can say it more eloquently than I can.  Just know that sometimes it takes harsh words to strike a point.  If there is something there, learn from it.  If not, brush it off. 

[TVRodriguez]

It's weird that people are coming into the Entrepreneurship sub-board to condescend to you for succeeding at business.
....
I hope you don't let yourself get deterred from continuing to post.

Not sure if I'm one of the "people" you're thinking of, but I am a small-business owner myself.  I am happy for the OP, and I took at face value that he was being honest in his description of his business and its sale.  Good for him. 

My point, if I have one, is that success is something that one must define for oneself.  His success may not look like my success, but I don't dispute that he has succeeded if he says he has.  Success, I believe, cannot be measured simply by numbers, whether those numbers measure dollars or years or number of businesses or children.  Success can only be found for oneself by one's own measure.  I doubt I would be considered a success by some, and I know I am considered a success by others (because people have told me that to my face IRL).  Several people look to me as a mentor.  So, by some measures, I am successful.  By others, maybe not.

My point was to let OP know why some of us may not want to focus on increasing income.  I don't speak for all forum members and I'm not a big poster here.  Not hating on anyone.  Simply sharing another perspective, FWIW.

[PoutineLover]

I've been reading this site for some time now, and it feels like there isn't quite enough time spent on big payouts.

I started an online business with $200. Worked my tail off over a decade part time. Grew it to millions in sales per year. Filed taxes on over $700k in earnings many years. Sold it for 7 figures. I had no background in this. I did it part time with employees. Not even close to my education. Just a whole lot of work, little sleep, and luck.

Now, I wish I had been a little smarter with the money along the way, but it's easy to get lazy when the cash is rolling in. I've got a different mindset now for the next business. And I have two started recently.

Moral is, I think if some of the time spent trying to figure out how to cut another $5 from the budget could be funneled over to the other side of the equation, people would have an easier time saving even more.

The bolded are some of the reasons why not everyone wants to start a business. The possibility of making millions compared to the almost certainty of working long hours, sacrificing health and relationships, and the potential to lose everything make not all risks worthwhile. Every dollar cut from your budget means 25 dollars you don't need to save for your retirement, so the benefits of frugality are huge. Plus for some of us, the environmental impact of spending less and consuming less, plus the benefits of being more active and doing more for yourself are part of the fun and what makes the journey worth doing. Nobody is saying you can't go out and earn your success however you want, and for some people the focus should be on making more money if they can't cover their costs or reach their goals with their current income, but everyone has their own goals and motivations and risk tolerance.
My health, my time and my relationships are more important to me than money. I wouldn't give those up just to make millions. Every tradeoff in life is between those things, and I can't maximize them all at the same time, so I make choices with my own values in mind, as do you and everyone else on this forum.

[2Birds1Stone]

I think you stumbled into the wrong forum.

There are plenty of very high earners and business owners here, as well as Bogleheads.

This is a forum dedicated to mindful consumption and figuring out how to design your life to be satisfying without having to focus on careerism and consumerism.

[Kyle B]

You completely forgot to mention that Pete apologized to Sol during their civilized discourse.

It blows my mind that you think he apologized to Sol. He wasn't admitting error; he was simply treating Sol with the politeness Sol wasn't showing him.

If you couldn't decipher that, well...good luck to you.

This is what nottheturkey actually said:

Sorry I seemed to have missed your post. While I may be new, you know nothing about me. I've read at least a third of the blog posts word for word. I've sent blog posts to my wife to discuss. I've debated the merits of ideas of this site with friends. I've been lurking on the forum since the middle of last year. I waited until I got a pretty good idea of what's going on before registering precisely because I didn't want to look like an idiot. So I read your comments somewhat like the political zealots that claim everyone that disagrees with them as "ignorant." My eyes are plenty open.

Note how much he sounds like how Pete sounded when he was about to ban Sol:

Sol: Just so you know, I find your your "I wouldn't put it past Pete to do X or Y" comments pretty insulting.

We have NEVER EVEN MET, and yet you have these detailed and incorrect conspiracy theories about my personal ethics and life motivations that you will happily share with thousands of people, right here on my website.

You have your own value system that you're free to live by, but from my perspective, this is pretty negative behavior - whether I see it applied to me, or any other stranger on the Internet.

 For the sake of the vibe of this forum, I do feel everyone else would be better off if you found another place to spend your online time, but I'll leave that decision to you and the rest of the group, rather than trying to enforce it myself.

Congrats on being a "long-timer". 

[bacchi]

You're still focusing on "more" as if that will solve their problem.  The distinction is not between making 2k or 20k, it's between being a slave to your consumption or learning to value something other than fancy houses and cars, like your health or your family or your spirit.

I ASKED the professors who teach the meaning of life to tell
     me what is happiness.
And I went to famous executives who boss the work of
     thousands of men.
They all shook their heads and gave me a smile as though
     I was trying to fool with them
And then one Sunday afternoon I wandered out along
     the Desplaines river
And I saw a crowd of Hungarians under the trees with
     their women and children and a keg of beer and an
     accordion.

Carl Sandburg

[bacchi]

I saw this thread the first day. I immediately finished the title with "...and you can too." Then I saw the OP had only two posts. I smelled troll. I also noticed OP was coy about what he did to earn his reported millions. More troll smell. Then OP expresses that he has no desire to retire early, and I again question his motive. I decided to let it ride for a few days.

Three days later, I see nothing to disprove my initial assessment. "nottheturkey" is clearly not the second coming he seems to be angling to prove he is. Sorry, sir, you may have lurked here for months, but opening an account, making a single post, then publishing this screed isn't going to generate a lot of traction for whatever it is you're trying to sell. At least not to this crowd. Further, other than your very first post, you have not commented on any other thread. I still smell that troll smell.

Yeah, stay tuned for how to start an internet company for only $200. You can work from your own living room! No experience necessary! Retire a millionaire in 5 years!

[Kyle B]

I saw this thread the first day. I immediately finished the title with "...and you can too." Then I saw the OP had only two posts. I smelled troll. I also noticed OP was coy about what he did to earn his reported millions. More troll smell. Then OP expresses that he has no desire to retire early, and I again question his motive. I decided to let it ride for a few days.

Three days later, I see nothing to disprove my initial assessment. "nottheturkey" is clearly not the second coming he seems to be angling to prove he is. Sorry, sir, you may have lurked here for months, but opening an account, making a single post, then publishing this screed isn't going to generate a lot of traction for whatever it is you're trying to sell. At least not to this crowd. Further, other than your very first post, you have not commented on any other thread. I still smell that troll smell.

Yeah, stay tuned for how to start an internet company for only $200. You can work from your own living room! No experience necessary! Retire a millionaire in 5 years!

The way some "long-timers" behave is so nasty. Get your jealousy under control.

By the way, I know a multi-millionaire who as a single mom scavenged her initial inventory from dumpsters.  But if she were here, you'd attack her as a troll...and run her off to make room for another eighty threads about cutting your own hair.  Because that is true happiness.

I doubt this is the forum Pete imagines he's running.

[nottheturkey]

So much discussion yet the first question asked was never answered (unless I missed it).  What kind of business was it?

I realize for the most part that doesn't matter to the points being discussed, but why is it every time people discuss their online businesses on here they are shrouded in mystery?

I said it above. It was an ecommerce business. Buy at wholesale, sell at retail. Add value where others are not. Again, I'd rather not get into the details because 1) I have a legal obligation to not and if I gave details, people could easily figure it out 1) I don't want to lose anonymity so I can discuss financials. However, if this is causing some doubt about the legitimacy of what I said, I would be happy to do a screen share with anyone of your choice to show you proof of what I said is the truth. I can show you the sales contract, bank accounts, transactions, tax filings, you name it.

[nottheturkey]

I saw this thread the first day. I immediately finished the title with "...and you can too." Then I saw the OP had only two posts. I smelled troll. I also noticed OP was coy about what he did to earn his reported millions. More troll smell. Then OP expresses that he has no desire to retire early, and I again question his motive. I decided to let it ride for a few days.

Three days later, I see nothing to disprove my initial assessment. "nottheturkey" is clearly not the second coming he seems to be angling to prove he is. Sorry, sir, you may have lurked here for months, but opening an account, making a single post, then publishing this screed isn't going to generate a lot of traction for whatever it is you're trying to sell. At least not to this crowd. Further, other than your very first post, you have not commented on any other thread. I still smell that troll smell.

I've owned a forum and been an admin/moderator on large boards before. There is nothing I can say to fight an acquisition of troll. What I can do is continue to participate and you can make up your mind on your own.

I didn't say I didn't want to retire early. I said I didn't want to retire now. However, just like most here, I did desire freedom to decide what I wanted to do with my hours in the day. I have that now and I chose to work in an industry that is changing peoples lives. But that wasn't the point of my original post. The intention of my post was to highlight alternative methods of getting to that freedom.

[nottheturkey]

I hope you don't let yourself get deterred from continuing to post.Agreed. Posts that contribute to the FIRE discussion and help others reach their goals are always welcome.

And see, that's part of what was missed. I DO believe in FIRE. Financial Independence Retire Early. Pretty sure those four words still fits with what I've been saying. No where have I said work harder for more money so you can have more stuff. I'm not sure why my words have been twisted. What I said was why don't people put a little more time in money making parts the FI part comes easier? No where did I say that your consumption has to increase with the increased income.

[nottheturkey]

I think you stumbled into the wrong forum.

There are plenty of very high earners and business owners here, as well as Bogleheads.

This is a forum dedicated to mindful consumption and figuring out how to design your life to be satisfying without having to focus on careerism and consumerism.

This is EXACTLY why I'm here. I said it before, I'm here to be challenged. But I'd also appreciate being able to challenge back. If that isn't allowed, then yeah, maybe you're right.

And again, I never promoted careerism and consumerism. Sure, I admitted to unfrugal (is that a word) spending in the past, but that wasn't on purpose, it was just easy. I'm actually embarrassed by some of it.

[nottheturkey]

I think we are related. lol We have most of ours in cash as well. Putting much money at all in the stock market scares me more than anything in the world. I'd much rather take a chance on my buddy and invest $100k on a used car lot with him than put $1 in the stock market.

I think the working public don't realize that even after we become a multimillionaire, we still get bored. Everyone is going to be doing something so why not work and why not make as much as possible? I don't have a fancy house. We only paid $200,000. We could have bought a $20 million house if we wanted. My wife wanted a CRV so that's what we bought her. I have a 2003 Dodge work van. I did have fancy cars but I never drove them so I sold them. We are tempted to buy a $10,000 old truck to drive around in but we never drive around!! lol So unlike most people with money and splurging on everything, we haven't bought one. And we aren't being greedy like some think, why not put people to work and in the process make more money to invest in other businesses to put more people to work. All of my time isn't spent in my small appliance business making money. Hell, I make more from the businesses that I have a partner in and never even do anything in them. Earning more money WILL help some but only those that respect and know how to treat money. It will get them to the point I am at much faster and then, if their head is right, they can just enjoy every day. If their head isn't right, then nothing is going to help until/if they get their head right. Unhappy rich or poor people are the people that don't have their head right..... yet. It's just the way of the world.

Ha, we most definitely are. Just a couple weeks ago I told my wife I wanted to downgrade my car to a 1950's/60's farm truck. But I have this weird idea of wanting to do an electric conversion on it.

[nottheturkey]

I doubt this is the forum Pete imagines he's running.

This isn't uncommon with forums. I actually think I'd get along great with MMM as I have thoroughly enjoyed reading his blog. I actually think this discussion would go very differently if we were all sitting around in person having a beer.

[MrDelane]

So much discussion yet the first question asked was never answered (unless I missed it).  What kind of business was it?

I realize for the most part that doesn't matter to the points being discussed, but why is it every time people discuss their online businesses on here they are shrouded in mystery?

I said it above. It was an ecommerce business. Buy at wholesale, sell at retail. Add value where others are not. Again, I'd rather not get into the details because 1) I have a legal obligation to not and if I gave details, people could easily figure it out 1) I don't want to lose anonymity so I can discuss financials. However, if this is causing some doubt about the legitimacy of what I said, I would be happy to do a screen share with anyone of your choice to show you proof of what I said is the truth. I can show you the sales contract, bank accounts, transactions, tax filings, you name it.

'Ecommerce business' is simply another term for an online business, so it's not actually adding any information to the question "what kind of online business was it?"

But I was asking out of curiosity more than anything - not out of doubt.
No need to prove anything for me.

If you need to keep it a secret in order to remain anonymous, fair enough.

[nottheturkey]

So much discussion yet the first question asked was never answered (unless I missed it).  What kind of business was it?

I realize for the most part that doesn't matter to the points being discussed, but why is it every time people discuss their online businesses on here they are shrouded in mystery?

I said it above. It was an ecommerce business. Buy at wholesale, sell at retail. Add value where others are not. Again, I'd rather not get into the details because 1) I have a legal obligation to not and if I gave details, people could easily figure it out 1) I don't want to lose anonymity so I can discuss financials. However, if this is causing some doubt about the legitimacy of what I said, I would be happy to do a screen share with anyone of your choice to show you proof of what I said is the truth. I can show you the sales contract, bank accounts, transactions, tax filings, you name it.

'Ecommerce business' is simply another term for an online business, so it's not actually adding any information to the question "what kind of online business was it?"

But I was asking out of curiosity more than anything - not out of doubt.
No need to prove anything for me.

If you need to keep it a secret in order to remain anonymous, fair enough.

I could share more via PM if it's purely personal interest. And you won't share publicly.

[Dicey]

You completely forgot to mention that Pete apologized to Sol during their civilized discourse.

It blows my mind that you think he apologized to Sol. He wasn't admitting error; he was simply treating Sol with the politeness Sol wasn't showing him.

If you couldn't decipher that, well...good luck to you.
 

Thanks Kyle B, I'll take all the good luck I can get! Oh, and speaking of apologies, here's one for you...

Okay! Feedback heard loud and clear.

Sorry for taking such personal offense @sol and I also appreciate your gentle response when you were probably pretty pissed off at me :-)

I think I have a soft shell on the issue of ethics about running this website, because I'm VERY aware of the potential conflict of interest between having people's attention (and sometimes even trust), and abusing it for the sake of making money. So I have really tried not to abuse it.

At the same time, I have felt really good about some of the things that earning money post-retirement has allowed me to do, and also kind of proud that my family and I have not inflated our lifestyles beyond what we could have afforded pre-blog. So I do want the site (and/or any eventual book, or maybe some other future projects) to continue to earn money. It's a useful tool for an idealistic person who likes big long-term plans.

So I do my best, and valid criticism is accepted, and misguided accusations seem to hurt quite a bit - at least from actual forum members here.

Aside from that, Sol and I probably just have different styles, and that is fine with me if it's fine with everyone else.

I personally feel like everyone should be super polite to each other on the Internet, never throw the first insult, never speculate aloud about negative motivations of people you don't know, and assume the best, or if that doesn't work, just take separate paths. But I'm not the Internet Police, so off I go to get back to some construction - it's a sunny day here in Colorado :-)

[Forever Wednesday]

Congrats Turkey, inspiring story. :)

[Carrie]

Fear, comfort and laziness keep me from pursuing any meaningful entrepreneurial businesses. I admire those who can come up with a valuable idea and carry it through to success and profit. I wish I had that umpf! When it's mentioned that it takes hard work, dedication, long hours, little sleep.... that's where you lose me. I have young kids, so sleep is already at a premium -I won't give up the remainder of it or my leisure time for any amount of money!  So for me, at this moment, it makes more sense to be frugal- write meal plans, limit errands, no eating out, little travel.