Why I DIY: Sales guys seriously piss me off.

[jwystup]

Warning: I feel like ranting.

So we have a craptastic back door that is quite possibly original to the house. It's drafty and ugly and it sticks when you try to open it. I hate it and desperately want some nice patio doors that work nicely, insulate the house, and aren't freakin ugly. Also, the opening where the door is would have to be widened to accomodate a patio door - and I don't know how much I trust myself DIYing that at this point.

Some more backstory: I'm a girl. I do things that people think boys are supposed to do - I am a software engineer, I wire up all of the electronics in the house and do basic home repair stuff (and am getting better and learning to do more advanced stuff since buying a house last year). I consider it my own personal brand of feminism - instead of whining about equality I just DO stuff that boys are "supposed" to do. But I can't get around the fact that I get emotional about stupid shit. If something makes me the tiniest bit upset, I will start crying and I can't help it. So this is the story of how I "won" a contest and it made me cry.

Yesterday I got a phone call from an unrecognized number. Ugh, okay, I'll answer it this time. "I'm calling to let you know that you won..." (I start thinking, oh geez, now I need to hang up on this guy) "... that you entered at BJ's..." (oh wait, I did enter a thing at BJ's) "... you won third place, and you get 25% off!". WTF? So I won and I get to pay you? So I was skeptical from the beginning. But what I had won was 25% the entire installation of windows or doors, and I hate my back door. They wanted to set up a free estimate, I figured I'd take advantage of the freeness of the estimate and let them come tell me how much money getting rid of that door would cost me. They had a cancellation for today so we set it up.

Fast forward to today, sales guy comes and looks at the existing door. I tell him how shitty it is and how much I hate it. He tells me all about how amazing the doors they sell are. They're pretty fucking awesome. More energy efficient than most of the super-energy-efficient doors out there with triple pane glass. He did a demo with a heat lamp where all other glass let a lot of heat through, theirs was cold to the touch. The whole time I'm thinking "these doors are awesome but just TELL ME THE DAMN PRICE, YOU ARE A SALESMAN SO I HATE YOU". Finally, after convincing me of the awesomeness of these doors (as I realize all salesmen try to do before giving you the price, ughhhh), he started writing up an estimate. I already put it in my head that I didn't want to spend over $1000 on this (I realize that it could wind up costing more than that anyways since the opening has to be widened but I KNOW I can get decent doors for around $500), since that was what I was comfortable spending out of my  little baby 'stache. He starts rattling off all of the things that  "this" comes with, including 50 years free replacement of broken glass... All of this shit is just adding up in my head, I know it's going to be expensive... $4888, with 25% off that I "won", it's $3666. "Yeah, that's way more than I wanted to spend," I tell him. In true salesman fashion, he continues to try and sell me this door. My eyes are tearing up because I really wanted a new door and I hate telling people NO but at the same time FUCK YOU I'M NOT SPENDING THAT MUCH ON THE *ONE* DOOR YOU HAVE TO OFFER ME! He adds on another 10% discount (where the hell did that come from? You couldn't do that to begin with?). No, still way too freaking much. I'm sure there awesome door is worth it but I don't have the cash to spend. The whole time he keeps recalculating the "monthly cost" with the "financing" and I'm just ignoring it until he asks me about that, can't you spend $65 a month? WHAT? No, I don't do financing. "Oh, did you hit a bump along the way somewhere?" (Implying that I can't handle financing or don't have good fucking credit or something). After that I wanted to throw him out the fucking window. "NO, I don't pay interest on things when I don't have to, I already have a door".  At that, he scoffed and said something along the lines of "yeah that's not a door". fuck you, get out of my goddamn house.

Luckily at that point, my boyfriend called for the third time (I had been ignoring the previous calls), so I answered it while this guy packed up his shit to leave. At one point in the conversation he asked how it was going with the door guy and I told him I'd have to call him back. Once the guy left, I called my boyfriend back and told him how much it was going to be and that I had to tell the guy NO. I got pretty emotional because I really wanted that door and I felt bad for wasting this guy's time. Also, I hate it when I can't afford things. Boyfriend kept telling me to stop crying and didn't understand why I was in the first place. We discussed maybe hiring these guys down the line when we could afford it so that we could get their awesome door. Now that I'm typing out the story, I'm pretty pissed off about the financing discussion and their lack of variety/choice/etc so that probably won't happen.

Now my face is still red and puffy and will probably remain that way for a while but my eyes are mostly dried up. I definitely feel better after venting a bit. FUCK YOU SALES GUY. Anyone have any tips on dealing with sales guys? I realize that getting emotional is probably breaking the #1 rule in dealing with them but I can't help it. Or any thoughts about putting a wider door in place of a narrower one? If I was to hire someone to just do the opening, who would I call for that? How much do you guys think would be reasonable to pay for a door like this? Or do you think I *could* do it myself with a little more determination?

[jwystup]

Wow, that was longer than I thought it was going to be.

I just wanted to say that, now that I've come to terms with the fact that I'm stuck with this door and most of the emotional crap has faded away, I'm very happy with my decision. Even if it was under the $1000 I was willing to spend, it would've meant a big hit to my 'stache. I'm glad I'm keeping my money.

[nolajo]

Ugh, the salesmen are half the reason I don't shop practically ever. The idea of having one in my home kind of makes my skin crawl. While I've never been a stress-crier, I get inarticulate and would probably just start sputtering until they got out if they did something like that to me.

I know I read MMM talking about framing out a wider doorway, but I'm having a hell of a time finding it - I only seem to be able to find on the blog that he did it, nothing further. So it's definitely possible, especially if you've been working on your general DIY skills and I'd imagine having the boyfriend or another friend over to be a second set of hands, etc, would be good since doors can be kind of awkward for one person to maneuver.

Another, admittedly quick and probably less than ideal fix, would be to sand down the door frame a bit. It's what the handy-man for my apartment did for my bathroom door since it was sticking badly. I'd be pretty conservative about how much I sanded down so that I didn't create more gaps if it's say, humid right now but less so at another time of year, but it could make the door more bearable until you figure out a permanent solution.

[Norman Johnson]

No, the first rule you broke was being a silly little gurl without her daddy or her man around. ;)

You and I have the same problem. I spent my time in college learning electrical. I like DIY and fixing stuff. I bought my first house at 23 by myself. And I'm also a bit of a crier too.

I can't tell you how pissed I was when I went to a furniture store to furnish my house and they ignored me. Not only was I 23, but I looked young and went without a male so I probably didn't have any money, right?! I left that store in tears and I never set foot in there again.

The worst was when I was looking for a new furnace. On company asked me at the initial phone call if my husband was going to be at the appointment. I said no, I'm not married. Then they asked if my boyfriend would be there. At this point I'm getting annoyed, but I tell them I'm single and live alone. We make the appointment, and I forget about stupid questions. On the day of the appointment the helpful office person calls me to make sure I'm going to be there. She too asks about a husband and then boyfriend. By now, I'm getting annoyed, and I ask them if it's okay if it's just me and my cat. The final straw is the sales guy. He comes over and then asks me if my husband is around!!! Only my Canadian politeness keeps him from being thrown out. As an added bonus he only taked about comfort... Never a BTU or percent efficiency for my delicate ears. Then he showed me a graph that had no scale! As a final insult, I got a TODAY ONLY ACT FAST price. I showed him out and threw his quote in the recycle bin.

When dealing with sales guys, remember you have the money and the power. You can kick them out or walk away if they are being dicks and if you really want to stick it to them and they are on commission, ask for someone else. You could also talk to a manager or write a letter if the person was a total asshole. As for tears, I don't know. If I'm somewhere I don't want to cry and about to, I usually dig my nails into my palms. Perhaps someone else has a better idea to share.

I have no advice on the door. We replaced our back door and it turned out pretty crappy. We had zero experience and no one to show us. If I were to do it again, I'd probably get a book or watch a bunch of YouTube videos or hire someone because we suck at it and a good door is pretty important when it's -30 outside.

[clarkai]

I hate sales people. Actually, I hate it when someone tries to sell me something. I don't hate the people, and I usually feel sorry for them, 'cause they're wasting their time because I'm probably not going to buy what they want me to buy anyway. Which makes it worse. I also hate spending large chunks of money, and feeling pressured, and rushed, and pretty much every part of a sales pitch.

In a given situation, I'd rather learn how to diy something from scratch than have to deal with a sales person. I just have a massive fear of screwing up, because, again, I'm 23 and never learned any carpentry or mechanic skills in my youth. But I hate spending the amount of money people seem to think is "reasonable" for home repair.

[Norman Johnson]

I just have a massive fear of screwing up, because, again, I'm 23 and never learned any carpentry or mechanic skills in my youth. But I hate spending the amount of money people seem to think is "reasonable" for home repair.

No time like the present! I'd start with something small and/or easy. I would also be on the lookout for people needing help with their projects. You'll pick up a lot that way too.

[James]

The best way to get something like a back door installed is to find a good handyman.  Professional installers aren't worth the price, and doing an exterior door without decent experience might be a big step.  I would start asking around for a recommended handyman or carpenter who is willing to take on an odd job.  Have them come look at the door and find out what size you should get, and find out how much they expect it to cost.  Then start watching for a decent quality door on Craig's list and/or at local stores.  Once you find the door you want and get it in the house, set up an appointment for him to install the door.  Try and be there and ask if he can show you some pointers along the way.


Not as "easy" as just hiring one company to get the job done, but I saved over half what a local company quoted by doing that last summer when I replaced our back door.  I spent less than $500 for the door and installation, but the frame didn't have to be changed at all.


I appreciate the pain you went through, it's sometimes easier being a guy, getting more respect at times and not having such an emotional response, but its still really sucks big time to deal with salesmen.

[Parizade]

The best way to get something like a back door installed is to find a good handyman. 

I'll second that! When I was turning my basement into an apartment for my son and future DIL I hired a handyman to install the doors. So he installed 4 wooden doors, a shower door, and wood trim around the existing patio door and window FOR LESS THAN $1000!!!!! He did a good job too, I'd hire him again.

Have you tried Angie's list? That's where I found Handyman Connection, and I've used them several times since then. Reasonably priced, honest, and they do a good job every time.

[gooki]

The best way to get something like a back door installed is to find a good handyman.

And I third this advice. If you can find a good one, they'll have installed enough doors in their time, that they'll know the good from the bad. And since they make money on their time, they've no interest in selling you the most expensive door, just the best door you can afford.

Seriously I don;t let sales men in the door. When we needed help renovating our bathroom - got the handyman in, told him what we want to achieve, and the level of quality expected, got a price in the mail a week later. No hard sell. Same when we replaced our air conditioning - fuck going to the a HVAC company. Called up an installer had them around - no hard sell, just listened and got back to me in a week with a price.

Basically any big branded companies will have a sales strategy that is hammered into their sales men. They overcome the negativity through advertising. The smaller guys rely on word of mount and you don't get good references by begin a bossy cunt.

[jwystup]

Thanks everyone, glad to know it isn't just me!

I like the idea of finding a handyman to do it or maybe help/show me how to do it properly. We have some good bargain/closeout building supply stores around here and I did find a building reuse place that I have yet to check out. I could probably get a good deal on the actual door at one of those places. But overall, the door isn't a huge priority, more of something to daydream about. As far as energy efficiency goes, the first to go is the furnace since it's from 1988! (And for that, I'm actually good friends with an hvac sales guy - even though I hate sales guys when they're trying to sell me things!)

[dougP]

While the price seems out of line, widening a door opening can turn into a major project.  If there is a functional reason to do so, consider a professional carpenter (who should show up in a work truck with tools).  If it's the aesthetic, well, how much is that look worth to you?  Hanging doors takes some particular knowledge & experience but a good handyman will have to tools & be able to do it right. 

If you can live with it for a bit, keep checking with your local lumber stores that handle doors & windows.  They get odd bits, one-offs that someone changed their mind on, wrong handed, etc., & will make a steep discount on something non-stock.  Who knows, you could find something really interesting that you weren't even looking for.

[reverend]

Having a 36" front door is worth gold, just the ease of getting furniture in and out is great.

The insulation of a door can be shite in a cheap steel door, but there's also solid wood! Keep in mind that if the house is older (hell, or newer but cheap) the walls are probably not that well insulated (fiberglass batting or equal shit) so a fancy door is overkill. Ensure that the seals on the door are good instead.

A good handyman can be found if you call the local property management companies and ask the person answering the phone who they use.

[DaftShadow]

Do you know what my favorite negotiation strategy is?  It's called "playing dumb."  :-)

Seriously, it's absolutely fantastic. 

For example, I'm a naturally technical person.  Give me a broken PC (hardware, software, viruses, whatever you want), and 50% of the time I can figure out the fix on the spot, and the other 40% all I need is Google.  But occasionally, I need to call technical support.

Without fail, the first 10-30 minutes of calling tech support is going to be a waste of my time.  "have you restarted the computer?" "is the computer plugged in?" "turn off your modem, wait 30 seconds, turn it on" ...   etc etc etc. 

I've tried all sorts of ways to get around this, asking for higher level tech support, complaining, getting frustrated.  But you know what's the absolute best way to get support?  Let the support rep RUN his routine!  It's slower...  but if you treat this person nicely, once they realize they can't solve it, they will send you to the right person almost every time.  And then things start to happen! 

This approach works everywhere.  "is your boyfriend going to be home?" "oh, yes, absolutely!"  "oh, I'm sorry, my boyfriend got called away.  But I'm very interested in getting a door, and I'm actually the DIY person anyway, so let's get to work"

There's one challenge for you though, in implementing this strategy.  Playing Dumb requires actual confidence in oneself.  It means being willing to let someone treat you as a novice, even though you know better.  It means nodding your head and smiling when you know they are wrong.  As sun tzu wrote, "He who is quick tempered can be insulted." 

But if you do this, if you let someone else feel strong for a while, they will usually return the favor later.   Good luck!

[jwystup]

I can definitely see how the playing-dumb thing can help with patience, I know that if I was expecting to deal with the initial making-sure-you-aren't-an-idiot things, they would be less annoying. There should be some secret code for us geeks to get through to the higher levels of customer service. I do everything in my power to avoid calling customer service, even if that means googling for another day. You know, unless it's their fault, I had to contact the cable company because the dvr just wasn't recording - it kept telling us something like it wasn't set up on our account. I got through to a more intelligent person (that wasn't just reading off of a piece of paper) by using their online service chat thing. That was also way better because as they were working on fixing it, I got to just mess around on my computer. I think that's more of an issue for everyone though, not just girls.

I think it's amazing that you gals have brought up the issue of "will your boyfriend/husband be home?" because THEY ASKED ME THAT TOO! At least twice. They at least phrased it better, I think at least one of them was asking if there were "any other decision-makers" that would need to be home. I knew without even talking to him that there was no way he'd want to be there (and he did confirm that), so I just told them no, but it was like I really had to reassure them "Are you surreeee????".

My favorite time was when I hired some electricians to update the meter/wires outside since there was no way I could do THAT myself. I also had them fix an outlet in the bathroom. I was the one who called and the only one there during most of the visit (oh and I was the one writing the frickin check). Then my boyfriend came home and we were both in the living room. The old guy started explaining what they did to fix the outlet and what we should do in the future to make it more legit TO MY BOYFRIEND. Like completely looking right past me and talking to him the whole time. GRRRR boyfriend doesn't even know what you're talking about, he doesn't do any of this stuff, and he doesn't care, talk to ME! That was the older guy of the two though, there was a younger guy with him who actually was talking to both of us when he explained some stuff. Boyfriend noticed it too and when I complained to him later he said he knew I was going to say something when it happened!

[JJ]

Sales guys aren't all bad - I work with quite a few of them (software) and whilst they are coin-operated in general the good ones really think about helping out their customers become more successful over the long term.  It's worth reading up on sales techniques and the sales process when you are dealing with them to understand what they will be trying to do, how to counter the moves and how to cut the sales cycle when it clearly isn't going to work.  A key part of a salesman's job is identifying conditions where two businesses (or a business and a consumer) can work together.  They won't want to waste their time on something which isn't going to happen so if you get to a deal-breaker (e.g. price &/or finance in this case) and early and strong NO from you is good for you and good for them so they can move onto the next deal. 

Business to consumer selling is a different beast to business to business (B2B) as there is much more emotion involved.  If you can bring it back to a pure business transaction it is a lot easier to evaluate.  Generally, whenever there is a big hook (25% off prize, for example), they will be gearing up for a heavy emotional sell and it is likely to be massively overpriced. 

Anyway - the main point of the post is to urge you to read up about selling, sales management & negotiation.  A couple of hours or a day invested early in your life is time well spent as buying & selling is something we have throughout our lives and understanding the games people play is useful.  If you are a software engineer I'm sure your firm runs sales training for sales guys from time to time (depending on what type of software you build).  Try to get on one of their courses or ask one of them to explain their sales process to you.  The cool thing about software (especially "enterprise" software rather than consumer) is that it is intangible so the sales process is typically quite sophisticated.

BTW - you will be asked if boyfriend/husband is at home too not necessarily as a sexist thing, but because they don't want to be on the receiving end of the "need to appeal to a higher authority" negotiating tactic.  If everyone is in the room who needs to be involved in the decision they can force a decision while the emotions are there.  For any significant purchase you should make sure you don't all go into the sales process together for that very reason - it gives you the breathing space/wiggle room to think about things before you jump in.

One more thing - it really pays to develop a nonchalant frame of mind so that emotion doesn't get in the way of good decisions.  This doesn't happen overnight, but studying up on the stoics (see MMM post: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/) or similar can help here.  If you show excitement at a particular product a sales guy will not let it go until he or she has made the sale.

[Bakari]

If you are set on getting a wider door, find a handyman.

If you are willing to have a better door in the same frame, just attaching the actual door is very easy, and you can do it yourself.

Measure the existing door.
Go to the building reuse place you found.
Find an exterior door of the same width and height.
Remove the screws holding the hinges of the current door to the frame (3 hinges, 3-4 screws per hinge).  Easy with a drill, but possible with a screw driver.

Attach hinges of new door - if you are lucky, they line up with the old ones, otherwise cut out a little sunk in area with a utility knife, and drill new pilot holes.  If the new door didn't come with hinges, take them off the old door.
Once the door is up, remove the locks from the old door (usually two screws on the inside, possibly covered with a snap off decorative plate, or a tiny set screw on the bottom) and put them in the new door.  If the new door doesn't have holes for the lock, you can buy a kit at the hardware store that will have bits and a guide to get them lined up perfectly.

And thats it.  A couple hours work, you can probably do it for under $200 including the door and tools if you need them.  You won't get the benifits of a larger doorway, but you save hundreds - possibly thousands - of dollars, and gain a little DIY experience.

[BenDarDunDat]

First of all, there's sales people and there are SELLS people. I've worked in sales, and in general I considered it a win/win situation. You wanted a product - I helped people find the product they wanted and I got a small commission.

Then there are sells people. These folks get off on selling you some shit you don't need or want. This guy is a classic example. He insinuates you can't afford the door as a psyche tactic so you will feel the need to prove that indeed you can pay for it. He had you an emotional wreck by the time he was finished. I reminds me of the time I went to some damned time share presentation and was triple teamed by 3 sellsmen, and when I didn't buy, they tried to insult me so I'd leave without the check they offered, till I turned it around and talked about how crooked the high pressure sales tactics were loud enough for other dupes to hear. Needless to say they got me a check and had me out the door in minutes.

The first thing I would do is to go to BJ's and make a big ass scene when I cancelled my membership for sending a crook to my house.

[shedinator]

I LOVE shady/high-pressure salespeople. They are the virgins to my Gandhi.  While I don't walk into a salesperson's office intentionally, when they spring themselves on me, I take a twisted pleasure from watching them try to convince me I need their product before I tell them I'm not interested, or I have to clear all purchases with my wife, or do they have a website or catalogue I can peruse at my own leisure?
It's also fun to let an underinformed salesperson try to tell you about a product with which you're more familiar.

For what it's worth, though, there are definitely good salesfolks out there. It's just that the shady ones give the profession a bad name.

[Osprey]

Just wanted to commiserate - I'm a crier too and it's very embarrassing, especially since I'm also peite and young-looking. Wo men are socialised to give everyone a chance, spare people's feelings and "be nice." I think this guy was taking advantage of that and it was wrong. I'm sorry you had to go through it. The best way I've found so far is to channel my mother. When she wants someone to go away she starts waving her arms, putting on a crazy-asian-lady act and using foreign words. I've seen it work with many salespeople. Maybe you can develop a similar kind of "defense persona" yourself?

[Bakari]

Just wanted to commiserate - I'm a crier too and it's very embarrassing, especially since I'm also peite and young-looking. Wo men are socialised to give everyone a chance, spare people's feelings and "be nice." I think this guy was taking advantage of that and it was wrong. I'm sorry you had to go through it. The best way I've found so far is to channel my mother. When she wants someone to go away she starts waving her arms, putting on a crazy-asian-lady act and using foreign words. I've seen it work with many salespeople. Maybe you can develop a similar kind of "defense persona" yourself?

I used to get teary eyed from confrontation.  Not quite outright crying, but as a Black male in a poor neighborhood, the threshold of socially acceptable was pretty low.
What cured me was working as a security guard for a few years.  Made me much more assertive and more able to keep a poker face no matter what.  If you don't have a pretending-to-be-crazy mom to channel, you could always take a part time ob as a security officer :P

[velocistar237]

What cured me was working as a security guard for a few years.  Made me much more assertive and more able to keep a poker face no matter what.  If you don't have a pretending-to-be-crazy mom to channel, you could always take a part time ob as a security officer :P

I got a short-term lift from my used car buying experience. It was very unpleasant for me, and I had to cope by learning to play the game. Afterward, I noticed one particular time when I was very calm and assertive with a phone salesman. I'm not sure the effect will last.

[cosmie]

Sales people have a habit of discriminating against just about anybody they think won't convert into much money. I drove a 1994 Nissan Sentra (retired it 6 months ago due to rising repair costs), and went to a jewelry store to pick out an engagement ring setting for my (then) girlfriend. Her mother had given me her grandmother's engagement ring, which was a ~0.55 carat diamond in a simple yellow-gold setting. I wanted the diamond to become the centerpiece for a slightly more ornate white-gold setting, so I started shopping around for one. After the saleslady saw the size of the current diamond, the car I was driving, and how young I was, I could barely get the time of day out of her. She just kept saying how rarely they saw such a small diamond for engagement rings, and any setting I picked out she insisted would dwarf the diamond. I ended up shopping elsewhere for it, and (because her mom insisted on contributing towards the ring) ended up spending close to $4,000 total (ring, birthday necklace for her, and wedding bands). I took it back to the original place I went to for an appraisal for insurance purposes, and happened to be driving my girlfriend's dad's car that day, an 2012 Audi A7. When I walked in the same saleslady was the friendliest person I had ever met, gushing over how beautiful the ring was and everything, not mentioning anything about the size of the diamond. She kept trying to show me items that would complement it. She didn't even remember me from when I had asked her for a similar design! I then gave her the original gold setting to sell (as they paid better for gold than the jewelry store that made the ring), and a look of recognition hit her face and she looked so shocked.

Was priceless. She didn't have much else to say while I waited for the appraisal to be completed.

[HeidiO]

One tip for when you start to cry and don't want to - very quickly (w/o moving your head) do a darting glance upward with your eyes.  It will stop you from crying for a couple of seconds.  Sometimes I have to do it once, sometimes over and over, but it really works.  I read that tip before going through basic training and I am so grateful I did.  Can you imagine how well basic training would have gone if I had cried my way through it?  I wish I had been taught this as a child. 
Heidi

[Bakari]

One tip for when you start to cry and don't want to - very quickly (w/o moving your head) do a darting glance upward with your eyes.  It will stop you from crying for a couple of seconds.  Sometimes I have to do it once, sometimes over and over, but it really works.  I read that tip before going through basic training and I am so grateful I did.  Can you imagine how well basic training would have gone if I had cried my way through it?  I wish I had been taught this as a child. 
Heidi

Well, if you do like one girl did when I was in basic, and collapse and start hyperventilating, the CC/DS breaks character and comes to make usre you are ok :P
Seriously though, even though I'm generally against every US military action from a political aspect, I still think we should have universal conscription the way Israel does.  Our citizens are all so soft and pathetic.  There isn't much that can break a person of complainy-pants-ness faster than bootcamp.

[HeidiO]

   I hear you.  It's very easy to go to war when you are sending other people, and not yourself or your family.  "Besides, they are all volunteers!"  I think citizens would weigh the costs and benefits better if the costs actually applied to everyone equally.
  Sorry for the post hyjack.
Heidi

[jwystup]

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I definitely know that there are good salesmen out there, but I generally try to avoid any transaction that involves one. I can see how they make sense in a business-to-business situation, but when I need to buy something personally, 90% of the time it's a bad experience. I feel like it would even be different if I had to buy something for work from a salesperson, I wouldn't be nearly as emotional. Even though I'm a crier, I think I've only ever cried once at work and that's because my parents called me to tell me my grandma had died.

I've definitely done the "look up" thing to avoid crying though. I think I may have done it in this situation. It was the best thing ever when my phone rang again though, I was able to just answer it and take my mind off of the crap for a minute.

I think as far as the door goes, I was already planning on living with it for a while, but I don't even *want* to know how much heat we lose out of that door in the winter. I might measure it and keep an eye out for cheap (but, you know, well-insulated) replacements. I noticed a friend had an original door once - it was like french doors but probably in the door frame size of a standard door (like two really skinny doors). I'm not sure how hard that would be to find (especially since it's a weird sized door to begin with), but I know I mentioned doing something like that before this whole incident.

[Danneskjold]

"Sales guy" here.

When I was younger I was afraid of dealing with salesmen as well-I'm very non-confrontational. If you want to get over this fear (and i would recommend it!), then try slowly putting yourself into situations that require negotiation. Otherwise you'll continue to be at a disadvantage.

[Jamesqf]

When I was younger I was afraid of dealing with salesmen as well-I'm very non-confrontational. If you want to get over this fear...

Why assume that it is a fear?  I don't like dealing with salespeople, just as I don't like being stuck in traffic, listening to rock, or any number of other things, so I try to arrange my life to avoid having to encounter such unpleasantnesses.  If sometimes that means I pay a bit more in order to avoid the unpleasantness of negotiation... well, isn't that what money is for?

[Danneskjold]

OP can describe her feelings if she cares to. But since she asked how to deal with sales guys, I'll stand by my advice; slowly put yourself into situations that require negotiations. You will feel uneasy at first, but thats just the feeling of going outside your comfort zone. After a while you'll be able to deal better with confrontational situations like this one, and I bet your mustache will grow a little because of it.

High-pressure sales techniques using fear, uncertainty, doubt, guilt, or intimidation (like being in a young woman's home alone with her) are more or less bullying. Learning to deal with people who are trying to bully you into something you don't want is a needed life skill.

Part of the issue is while you may not want to negotiate, a portion of the rest of the world does. Indeed, as Jim Collins mentioned in his post, negotiations can be very useful.

[arebelspy]

When I was younger I was afraid of dealing with salesmen as well-I'm very non-confrontational. If you want to get over this fear...

Why assume that it is a fear?  I don't like dealing with salespeople, just as I don't like being stuck in traffic, listening to rock, or any number of other things, so I try to arrange my life to avoid having to encounter such unpleasantnesses.  If sometimes that means I pay a bit more in order to avoid the unpleasantness of negotiation... well, isn't that what money is for?

Sure, and that's a valid point, but I think a lot of times it is a fear/lack of resolve/whatever.

If you're avoiding it because it's an annoying hassle (and you aren't channeling your hasselhof for some reason), that's one thing.  Avoiding it because you are timid is likely something worth trying to improve on.

[grantmeaname]

High-pressure sales techniques using fear, uncertainty, doubt, guilt, or intimidation (like being in a young woman's home alone with her) are more or less bullying. Learning to deal with people who are trying to bully you into something you don't want is a needed life skill.

So what you're saying is that being in a woman's home, invited, and doing what she invited you in to do, is intimidation tantamount to bullying her?

[adam]

Having bought and traded way to many cars in my 'youth' I've become very straightforward with salesmen.  You know the stereotypical car sales guy is usually the worst, but I will be up front: This is exactly what I am looking for, either show me that or don't show me anything.  I will tell them up front, don't bring me the keys without also bringing me the price sheet or you are wasting both our time.  I think that the 'good' sales people appreciate this because I'm not trying to waste anyone's time and if they provide me what I'm asking for they will probably make some money.

I never got stuck with anything I didn't want, but I did allow myself to get 'upsold' to something maybe I didn't need (but that inner child just had to have).  Even the 'timeshare' I got, it wasn't that I got pressured into it, I actually convinced myself it would be worth it based on the information provided to me.  Of course, the information provided was incomplete and somewhat inaccurate, so that was my fault and I'm not going to blame anyone else but myself for not being prepared before hand to ask the right questions.  The 'freebies' that came along with it were worth more than the price of the timeshare, but there were strict limitations on them that means I probably won't be able to use them all.

Lesson learned: I had a second timeshare presentation to sit through last month and was able to walk out without even considering it.

[mm1970]

I agree with shedinator.  That's kinda what I do.

I remember when my old Saturn died on the freeway.  I had to let it coast to a stop on a busy exit, and walk to the gas station.  It got towed to a mechanic, and I told the mechanic that "I think it's electrical". 

They said "oh, I'm sure it's not."

Me: "well, all of a sudden, everything electrical in the car shut down, so...I think it's electrical."

"oh, I'm sure it's not".

Yeah, electrical.  After that, I just kinda have fun with salespeople.  I am not their target audience.

[Bakari]

So, jwystup, let us know what you end up doing with your door!

[markstache]

I think as far as the door goes, I was already planning on living with it for a while, but I don't even *want* to know how much heat we lose out of that door in the winter. I might measure it and keep an eye out for cheap (but, you know, well-insulated) replacements.

Consider this an opportunity to show off your badassity. There are lots of things you can do to cut heat loss at little or no cost:

- The classic door snake to prevent drafts under the door.
- Additional weather stripping around the frame.
- Cover it in plastic and/or fiberglass during the winter and use a different door.

You're creative. You're handy. I'm sure you can come up with even better ideas.

My personal door story: my wife and I replaced both the front and rear doors in our house. Upon removing the old doors we discovered that THERE WERE NO DOOR FRAMES. The doors were just nailed into the plywood exterior. Ah, mid-century tract housing strikes again. But, nothing like having a huge gapping hole in your house to motivate you! (We found similar shipshod construction when we replaced windows. Hint: If you want to break into a house in my neighborhood, try just tugging on a window or door. You'll probably be nicely rewarded.)

[Grigory]

Wow, jwystup, that was one great rant! :) You should post those more often - you seem to have a knack for angry writing. And I completely agree: most salesmen in my experience were slimy manipulators. That's why I do all of my big purchases online...

[jwystup]

So, jwystup, let us know what you end up doing with your door!

Well now we have nothing planned for the immediate future.  I'm mostly focusing my energy (and dollars) on repainting all of the rooms in the house and changing random fixtures - I did a lot of light fixtures last year, I have yet to update some outlets and get some new switchplates, etc.

I am definitely considering just finding a nicer door that fits in the opening though. I found the existence of a building-supply-salvage store downtown and have yet to check it out - I should take measurements before I go to see what they might have. I have a couple of old ceiling fans and things to drop off anyways (switched out for some with lights). At this point I'm also trying to save up some money for a new furnace before winter (existing one is from '88 and we have friends that can get us deals  in that area so I want to use them before we have a furnace emergency).

As far as drafts and things, our house is very weather stripped everywhere, the previous owners seem to have been good at insulating as much as possible (hence the incredibly thick layer of insulation in the attic!). But when we took the carpet out of that room to expose the hardwood, it made more of a gap that wasn't there - the door was originally dragging on the carpet and hard to open! I did have intentions of making a new snake for over there but never got to it. We wouldn't be able to cover the door completely since it's the back door and we have a dog so that's where he goes potty ;) Actually, on that topic, I never came up with a good solution to this - we never use our front door and blocked off the steps to avoid extra shoveling last winter. We have a couple of awesome wool blankets (military style) I wanted to drape over the door but they're so heavy that I couldn't find a good way to hang them without making crazy holes in the blanket/wall. Anyone ever do anything like that?