Who can educate me about engineered hardwood flooring?

[JLee]

Background - I recently purchased a house that was built in 1942 and had a huge addition (second floor + extra) added in 2005 - I expect the subfloor to be either chip board or plywood (haven't yet pulled carpet up to check).

I have a roommate moving in upstairs (there's a whole in-law suite up there..it's pretty nifty) and he asked if I'd be open to replacing the carpet in the bedroom (approx 18 x 14) with hardwood at his cost. I did a little research and I could use this opportunity to install a more durable floor (I have two cats and roommates will have a kitten, so replacing carpet is nice anyway) and also install soundproofing between the floors (example).  However, I know nothing about hardwood flooring.  I checked with my stepdad who is a high end finish carpenter and he's only had experience with nail-down wood flooring.  I suspect from a sound (and ease of installation) perspective, floating with thick rubber underlayment would be superior?  I'm looking at something like this (random selection for example purposes).

We'd do the installation ourselves - it looks like it installs like laminate flooring, so we should be able to manage it just fine. What factors should I consider with this decision? Anything in particular of which to be aware?

[bacchi]

With a kitten, you might consider more water-resistant/waterproof engineered hardwoods. The veneer is hardwood but the core is more laminate-like.

If you care about longevity, look for a thicker surface so that it can be refinished. https://www.homeflooringpros.com/blog-guides/refinish-engineered-hardwood

Finally, cork is a good sound insulator. You can buy 1/4" or 1/2" cork underlayment rolls or squares on Amazon.

[lthenderson]

I'm always a proponent for using solid hardwood floors. I've torn down houses with solid wood floors over a hundred years old and reinstalled them in other houses. You will never get that kind of mileage out of engineered wood floors. The two big factors why is that they get water damage much easier and once damaged, can't be fixed. Also, since they only have a veneer layer, if anything punctures that veneer layer (drop something heavy with a sharp corner), you are left with a different colored hole. With solid wood, you can fill that hole with a clear epoxy and refinish and it becomes almost invisible.

Saying all that, in rental situations, tenants can be really hard on stuff that isn't theirs and that includes floors. I would be inclined to go the engineered floor route which is much easier to install and remove to replace in-between tenants.

[big_owl]

We did high end floating engineered flooring in our basement (see below post for pics) with sound deadening underlayment.  I really didn't have a choice but to use engineered since it was a basement application.  It was expensive but it looks really, really nice.  It went down ridiculously fast once the first row was squared and nailed in (the remaining boards used a pneumatic stapler). 

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/from-zero-to-million-dollar-basement-(diy)/msg920378/#msg920378

You do have to be more gentle on it because as mentioned the scratches are more visible.  For the few places where we have scoring I just bought a color matching wood pencil and it makes them basically invisible.  Also, a brown permanent marker will do the job.  Our flooring is "hand scraped" so any deep scratches look pretty natural anyway.  The scratches to watch for are the shallow long ones because they show more unnaturally in the finish.

I plan on replacing all the flooring on the upper two levels of house and for those I will use high-end solid wood flooring instead of engineered.

But yeah, the engineered stuff is really easy to install and tearing it up would also be pretty easy if I ever had to do that. 

[bacchi]

Also, a brown permanent marker will do the job.

Ha. This is what I've been using as well.

[SunnyDays]

Apart from price and ease of installment, consider that engineered floors are full of toxic glues and will out gas.  Also, in event of a fire, it will go up like a torch.  For those reasons, I wouldn't touch it, or laminate floors, for that matter, and when my carpeting is ready to be replaced, it will be solid hardwood for me.  Maybe you could price the engineered, then kick in the difference for hardwood?  You can also get a finish that is used for gymnasiums, which would make it more scratch-resistant.  My parents have a water-based finish on theirs, and with pets, the surface scratches are noticeable in certain lighting conditions.

[toganet]

I've done about 2500 sq ft of various types of engineered wood flooring, and I would use it again, with caveats.  I agree with other posters in general, though a lot depends on the specific type of flooring you get.

Also, I have not yet done a nailed-down installation of engineered wood, only floating (various click-lock) and glue-down T&G.

My best results have been with the types of laminated wood flooring that have a wood veneer on top of MDF or plywood, sandwiched against a thin wood layer at the bottom.  These types were easy to install using hand tools + miter saw, the hardest part being getting the first course in square and true, and all the up & down on my old knees.

The last two room I did using a engineered hardwood flooring that was not a laminate.  (Specifically, this one: https://www.nuvelleflooring.com/ )  With this flooring, each plank has the click-lock edge routed directly into a solid piece of wood.  It's easy to install, and the boxes generally contain a lot of lengths, which saved me a ton of cutting in one room (yay math).

My caveat with Nuvelle is that it's a bit pricey (I bought acustomer-return pallet of it at 75% off) and, as it's a floating floor, it moves a bit as it expands and contracts throughout the year.  My first installation developed a "bubble" the first spring after I installed it.  Luckily, I was able to simply "unclick" the last couple courses, rip off another 3/4 in, and reinstall.  There floor is also a little noisy, as in you can hear the planks shifting against each other slightly as you walk across it.  This effect has faded over time, and I think is partly due to the not-perfectly-level subflooring I started with.

My worst results have been with cheap laminate flooring.  No way to do those right, and not worth the trouble.

[Frankies Girl]

I have 90% of my house in engineered wood flooring. Dark stain, handscraped, expensive stuff (sigh, thought this was our forever house so it's luxury level). Really beautiful. Slab single story, so was glue down (professional install).

There are lots of pros, so just a few of the cons:

Don't get dark or even medium colors if you have pets/people with hair in your home. You will NEVER STOP SWEEPING. It also show every bit of dust/hair and look as if all the dirt in the history of the world has accumulated in the last two hours. EVERY DAY. Light colors = less insanity with cleaning.

Will scratch just from animals running around and playing. Again, no dark colors so the scratches blend better or else you'll be painting with the colored marker every week for a while.

I put felt pads on the bottoms of table/chairs and have area rugs everywhere. So I still need to have a vacuum. It does however mean my roomba does an EXCELLENT job when I remember to run it due to either low pile or wood flooring.

Drop things? Engineered does dent easily. I have adjusted over to "eh, adds character" but the first dozen or so dents freaked me out.

Can't steam or use lots of water to mop. Cleaning usually with Bona (was recommended) or very light spray of window cleaner which is mostly ammonia). I also sometimes use a lightly damped mop with a bit of ammonia.

I mean, I love my floors, but I would not use this color/luxury flooring again. Next time likely will be LIGHT colored wood, likely even go cheaper so I wouldn't feel so bad about the damage or replacing if needed. Honestly, I want my next house to be vinyl plank (easy to replace any damaged and cleans/resists scratching much better) or just do finished concrete. Not sure how that would translate for your upstairs application, but vinyl plank may be something for you to look at instead since it may be even better than wood anything for a rental unit (even if it is a friend, there is luxury vinyl now) and they have styles that simulate wood flooring too.

[lthenderson]

Reminds me of my previous house which had engineered hardwood flooring throughout the first floor. It was a light honey oak in color and I always was amazed at the massive pile of dirt we swept up once a week when we swept it. I was amazed not only with the quantity which I'm sure would have been much less had it been carpeted but also with the fact that so much dirt existed and yet the floor never really looked dirty. I took that last part for granted until spending time in houses with dark colored flooring like the poster above where you can see every spec of dirt.

[JLee]

Oh good call on the color / showing dirt - I had not considered that.

I'm not opposed to proper hardwood, but I figured that would be dramatically slower / more complicated to install (I have not done this before, and I'd be doing the install with him)  and also the nails give sound/vibration a direct path to the subfloor (vs a floating floor over cork/rubber).

[ericbonabike]

We are in the process of installing LVP (Luxury Vinyl Plank) and LVT (Luxury Vinyl Tile).

The Planking has a hand scraped look, looks like real wood, and feels like real wood.  We did a lot of research, and the extended warranty, scratch resistance (we have three dogs), and water proofness made it very attractive.  It also didn't require any underlayment (saved 50 cents a square foot), and it was easy enough for me (not particularly hand) to install ourselves (saved another $1.50 - 2.00 a square foot).

Not all LVP/LVT are created equally.  Ours was higher end product made by CoreTec and was 10 mm thick.  Only tools I needed were:
Miter saw
table saw
jig saw
oscillating saw (to undercut door jams)
hammer block
pull bar
hard rubber mallet
Measuring tape

[big_owl]

Reminds me of my previous house which had engineered hardwood flooring throughout the first floor. It was a light honey oak in color and I always was amazed at the massive pile of dirt we swept up once a week when we swept it. I was amazed not only with the quantity which I'm sure would have been much less had it been carpeted but also with the fact that so much dirt existed and yet the floor never really looked dirty. I took that last part for granted until spending time in houses with dark colored flooring like the poster above where you can see every spec of dirt.

Yeah our basement engineered wood floor is very dark which is rich and cozy feeling but there's no doubt that it shows dust and dirty more easily.  Luckily in our case we don't have any kids or pets (at least none with hair or feathers) so we only have to clean our house every few months as it is.  All that's typically needed for the wood floors is a two minute once-over with a dry mop.  Then once or twice a year I use pin-sol or vinegar and water.  I'd never use a vacuum on it for risk of scratching it.

[JLee]

We are in the process of installing LVP (Luxury Vinyl Plank) and LVT (Luxury Vinyl Tile).

The Planking has a hand scraped look, looks like real wood, and feels like real wood.  We did a lot of research, and the extended warranty, scratch resistance (we have three dogs), and water proofness made it very attractive.  It also didn't require any underlayment (saved 50 cents a square foot), and it was easy enough for me (not particularly hand) to install ourselves (saved another $1.50 - 2.00 a square foot).

Not all LVP/LVT are created equally.  Ours was higher end product made by CoreTec and was 10 mm thick.  Only tools I needed were:
Miter saw
table saw
jig saw
oscillating saw (to undercut door jams)
hammer block
pull bar
hard rubber mallet
Measuring tape

I'm not familiar with a pull bar or hammer block, but I have all of the above except for a table saw (which I've been kinda waiting for an excuse to buy). 

Can you install that over sound insulating underlayment?  I'm more concerned about noise transfer than I am saving money -- if I can spend an extra $1k to no longer hear footsteps overhead, that would be lovely.

[ericbonabike]

We are in the process of installing LVP (Luxury Vinyl Plank) and LVT (Luxury Vinyl Tile).

The Planking has a hand scraped look, looks like real wood, and feels like real wood.  We did a lot of research, and the extended warranty, scratch resistance (we have three dogs), and water proofness made it very attractive.  It also didn't require any underlayment (saved 50 cents a square foot), and it was easy enough for me (not particularly hand) to install ourselves (saved another $1.50 - 2.00 a square foot).

Not all LVP/LVT are created equally.  Ours was higher end product made by CoreTec and was 10 mm thick.  Only tools I needed were:
Miter saw
table saw
jig saw
oscillating saw (to undercut door jams)
hammer block
pull bar
hard rubber mallet
Measuring tape

I'm not familiar with a pull bar or hammer block, but I have all of the above except for a table saw (which I've been kinda waiting for an excuse to buy). 

Can you install that over sound insulating underlayment?  I'm more concerned about noise transfer than I am saving money -- if I can spend an extra $1k to no longer hear footsteps overhead, that would be lovely.

Pull bar and hammering block, super super cheap.

https://www.amazon.com/Laminate-Flooring-Installation-Spacers-Tapping/dp/B07JZ43XRW/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1ITW8GTI3ZJAP&keywords=pull+bar+and+tapping+block+kit&qid=1561723966&s=gateway&sprefix=pull+bar+and+%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-6

I think you can install LVT/LVP on anything as long as the floor is level to a certain tolerance.  We installed over a slab, but you it's just a floating floor and I think you can install on anything.  Cheaper LVT or LVP don't have a built in underlayment, but the one we got did.  The floor surface itself needs to be free of bumps, or protrusions, but can handle a certain amount of "void".  For example:  We ripped out old carpet, and we had to make sure ALL of the carpet nails were out of the slab.  But, we didn't worry if there were divots in the slab where we had pulled out the carpet nails. 

The product we got was Coretec, was 10 mm thick, quite heavy.  It came with a cork backing, then a moisture barrier, then a vinyl, wood, vinyl.  So, it is supposed to be extremely water resistant.  We paid about $4 a square foot for it.  But, we saved $0.50 on no underlayment, and another $1.50 to $2.00 installation. 

[JLee]

We are in the process of installing LVP (Luxury Vinyl Plank) and LVT (Luxury Vinyl Tile).

The Planking has a hand scraped look, looks like real wood, and feels like real wood.  We did a lot of research, and the extended warranty, scratch resistance (we have three dogs), and water proofness made it very attractive.  It also didn't require any underlayment (saved 50 cents a square foot), and it was easy enough for me (not particularly hand) to install ourselves (saved another $1.50 - 2.00 a square foot).

Not all LVP/LVT are created equally.  Ours was higher end product made by CoreTec and was 10 mm thick.  Only tools I needed were:
Miter saw
table saw
jig saw
oscillating saw (to undercut door jams)
hammer block
pull bar
hard rubber mallet
Measuring tape

I'm not familiar with a pull bar or hammer block, but I have all of the above except for a table saw (which I've been kinda waiting for an excuse to buy). 

Can you install that over sound insulating underlayment?  I'm more concerned about noise transfer than I am saving money -- if I can spend an extra $1k to no longer hear footsteps overhead, that would be lovely.

Pull bar and hammering block, super super cheap.

https://www.amazon.com/Laminate-Flooring-Installation-Spacers-Tapping/dp/B07JZ43XRW/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1ITW8GTI3ZJAP&keywords=pull+bar+and+tapping+block+kit&qid=1561723966&s=gateway&sprefix=pull+bar+and+%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-6

I think you can install LVT/LVP on anything as long as the floor is level to a certain tolerance.  We installed over a slab, but you it's just a floating floor and I think you can install on anything.  Cheaper LVT or LVP don't have a built in underlayment, but the one we got did.  The floor surface itself needs to be free of bumps, or protrusions, but can handle a certain amount of "void".  For example:  We ripped out old carpet, and we had to make sure ALL of the carpet nails were out of the slab.  But, we didn't worry if there were divots in the slab where we had pulled out the carpet nails. 

The product we got was Coretec, was 10 mm thick, quite heavy.  It came with a cork backing, then a moisture barrier, then a vinyl, wood, vinyl.  So, it is supposed to be extremely water resistant.  We paid about $4 a square foot for it.  But, we saved $0.50 on no underlayment, and another $1.50 to $2.00 installation.

Which flavor of Coretec did you get? Looks like they have quite a few - https://productsdirect.com/shaw-usfloors-coretec-flooring-products-comparison-table.html

[ericbonabike]

We got the "Coretec plus" which came with the cork backing. Why this one?  I dunno, looked good, had a waterproof rating, and had a good scratch resistance.  Plus the warranty.
 Just laid down over the cleaned up slab.

https://productsdirect.com/design-gallery/shop-by-look-coretec-plus-planks-flooring-products.html

The 5" boards look and feel like wood to me. 

For the kitchen we went with something like: 
https://productsdirect.com/flooring/luxury-vinyl-tile/us-floors-coretec/coretec-tile.html

We just started installing these 18"x24" tiles, and I'd say there a bit trickier than the wood paneling.  More waste, and everything is being cut with table saw or jig saw.  Additionally, they don't "click" together quite as easily as the wood paneling.  So, if you're gonna install on your own, highly recommend starting with the wood paneling.

[bmjohnson35]

We have owned engineered hardwood and laminate, both high and low cost options.  If I was choosing now, I would go with the newer vinyl flooring.  Based on feedback from other owners, it wears well, it's waterproof and as easy to install as laminate.

The engineered hardwoods scratch and dent much easier than laminate.  As stated above, you don't want real dark or too light and especially not in solid colors or with a shiny finish.  They show lint and/or dirt readily.

The quality and type of foundation or subfloor can also be a factor.  We installed laminate in our last home and the concrete foundation wasn't level and there were shallow spots all over the place.  If you would have sprayed water on the floor, you would have seen shallow pools scattered around. We ended up having to shim up the worst locations with extra underlayment.

BJ

[JLee]

We have owned engineered hardwood and laminate, both high and low cost options.  If I was choosing now, I would go with the newer vinyl flooring.  Based on feedback from other owners, it wears well, it's waterproof and as easy to install as laminate.

The engineered hardwoods scratch and dent much easier than laminate.  As stated above, you don't want real dark or too light and especially not in solid colors or with a shiny finish.  They show lint and/or dirt readily.

The quality and type of foundation or subfloor can also be a factor.  We installed laminate in our last home and the concrete foundation wasn't level and there were shallow spots all over the place.  If you would have sprayed water on the floor, you would have seen shallow pools scattered around. We ended up having to shim up the worst locations with extra underlayment.

BJ

Thanks!  This is a second floor of a house, so I suspect it won't be all that level either...hopefully it's not too bad.

[Chickadee]

I just wanted to make sure you (looks like you are on top of this already..) check leveling.

I was not all over my installer who did not level it pre or advice me to and the floor is popping up. Super annoying. You can feel the pop when you walk.

Other mistake I made was not looking into underlayment. I think he used felt or tar paper. Awful. Loud. Jeez I learned. Now we are too deep into it and the job is done already and man was paid. So we are thinking we can maybe use glue or softener in some spots. We are living with it for now.

Our next floor will be quality LVT with a nice thick underlayment as much as molding allows and I will be stomping on it before the job is done!
Water and dogs are wood enemies. I wince when people drop cups or utensils but I am learning to live with it.

[JLee]

I just wanted to make sure you (looks like you are on top of this already..) check leveling.

I was not all over my installer who did not level it pre or advice me to and the floor is popping up. Super annoying. You can feel the pop when you walk.

Other mistake I made was not looking into underlayment. I think he used felt or tar paper. Awful. Loud. Jeez I learned. Now we are too deep into it and the job is done already and man was paid. So we are thinking we can maybe use glue or softener in some spots. We are living with it for now.

Our next floor will be quality LVT with a nice thick underlayment as much as molding allows and I will be stomping on it before the job is done!
Water and dogs are wood enemies. I wince when people drop cups or utensils but I am learning to live with it.

I definitely want to put as high quality underlayment as I can -- if I can prevent hearing footsteps upstairs, it will be worth it!

[G-dog]

@Dicey is a flooring expert.

If you have pets (dogs at least), they with scratch up engineered/hardwood floors.  At some point it becomes “character”.

[JLee]

@Dicey is a flooring expert.

If you have pets (dogs at least), they with scratch up engineered/hardwood floors.  At some point it becomes “character”.

Just cats - no dogs. :)

[G-dog]

@Dicey is a flooring expert.

If you have pets (dogs at least), they with scratch up engineered/hardwood floors.  At some point it becomes “character”.

Just cats - no dogs. :)

I imagine that cats don’t damage floors to the same extent since their claws are usually retracted. But I don’t know.

[JLee]

@Dicey is a flooring expert.

If you have pets (dogs at least), they with scratch up engineered/hardwood floors.  At some point it becomes “character”.

Just cats - no dogs. :)

I imagine that cats don’t damage floors to the same extent since their claws are usually retracted. But I don’t know.

Hard floors no, furniture/carpet yes. Fortunately mine are reasonably good about staying with their designated scratching stuff.

[Dicey]

We used cork-backed LVP (Luxury Vinyl Plank) in our latest project. We just listed it. There's a link to the photos in my journal. You can get to it from my siggy line below.

We love it so much, it will probably be our go-to product going forward.

ETA: If I was going for hardwood, engineered is the way to go, IMO.