Author Topic: Weird things I found when fixing my water heater - please tell me this is okay  (Read 4145 times)

Aardvark

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
A few days ago my 17 year old water heater stopped working after the power tripped. The heater runs on gas so this was probably a coincidence – but I add it in case somebody thinks it’s relevant. After some time on Google and YouTube I decided that it’s probably the thermocouple that was dead (the pilot light would come on but die as soon as I tried to turn the system to normal function). This did the trick, and the water heater is now working again… But I had to do to weird things along the way that I would appreciate some feedback on.

Weird thing number one
– the water heater’s original thermocouple is 15 inches long. I couldn’t find a 15 inch so I bought an 18 inch, however the diameter of the 18 inch thermocouple was bigger than the mounting bracket, so that didn’t work. I found a 24 inch thermocouple with a narrower diameter. I installed that, and it is working fine. I would really appreciate it if somebody that knows more than we can tell me that the length of the thermocouple doesn’t matter beyond it looking weird that I have a few inches of copper wire in a mess at the base of the water heater.

Weird thing number two –
this is the more concerning issue. Instead of the Thermocouple plugging right into the gas valve assembly it was plugging into the female-end of a sub-assembly. The sub-assembly had one end plugged into the socket where the thermocouple would normally go, but it also had two wires connected to a resistor and then going up to the top of the tank where it connected to a “therm-o-disc”, which in turn was connected to a wire that runs around the top of the tank where the exhaust is. I assume that this is a safety mechanism that disconnects the thermocouple if the temperature at the top of the tank gets too high – causing the gas to be cut off and preventing the system from over-heating. Ideally, I would like to have this safety mechanism in place, BUT… the female end of the sub-assembly is totally stripped and I couldn’t plug the thermocouple into it. So, I circumvented the sub-assembly and plugged the thermocouple directly into the gas valve assembly where the sub-assembly was previously plugging into. I believe that the “therm-o-disc” cut off was an excessive safety measure as a plumber that was here this morning said that he didn’t know what it does and that if he services the tank he would probably remove it. I have attached a bunch of photos. It would be great to hear somebody that knows more than me say “what you did is fine and that “therm-o-disc” sub assembly is unnecessary. Or “you should fix that stripped part and make sure that the sub-assembly is working, and here is why, and here is how”.

Any insights into either of the weird things would be much appreciated!

Aardvark

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
More pictures

Aardvark

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
@ChpBstrd do you know whether there are any water heater experts on this forum that would be interested in geeking out on this with me?

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8028
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
I frankly am impressed that you have a 17 year old water heater. They do not live that long usually.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
@ChpBstrd do you know whether there are any water heater experts on this forum that would be interested in geeking out on this with me?
I do not know of any forum WH experts, but I do understand how using the wrong parts on a thermocouple could be a safety concern.

The thermocouple's job is to convert heat (from the pilot light) into electricity that holds open a magnetic valve which allows gas to flow to the pilot light. This way if the pilot light goes out, you're not just spraying gas into the room. If for whatever reason it is possible for gas to go to the pilot light when the pilot light is not lit, then you'd have a gas leak and explosion hazard.

Maybe the thermocouple you substituted does this job fine or maybe not. One way to check is to blow out the pilot light and then see if you can relight it without going through the normal procedure of holding down the valve button. If you can complete this test three or four times, and the pilot light is impossible to re-light, then the thermocouple is correctly closing off the gas supply to the pilot when the fire goes out.

The opposite concern is that the bigger thermocouple might be only barely getting hot enough to keep the gas flow going. Maybe in very cold weather, it would close off gas supply to the lit pilot light and you'd find yourself without a hot shower and unable to relight the pilot. This situation could obviously get annoying, so you may want to take the model number and the old part to your local plumbing supply house (not big box store, the warehouse plumbers go to), and see if they sell the original part. Could be a $25 fix to get it right.

Overall, we have to ask ourselves how much effort and money a 17 year old water heater is worth. You could work very hard or spend money on a rare part only for it to leak a few months later. A major concern is that I cannot 100% tell from the picture whether it has a leak pan installed underneath. If you do not have a pan to catch the leak, the potential failure of this water heater means water damage to your house, which will far exceed whatever depreciated value you might enjoy from milking another year out of this unit.

I've gutted a bathroom to the studs due to a leaking water heater (that was about the age of yours) that was not installed on a pan and it is regrettable. Factories and other industrial facilities have a concept of preventative maintenance, where they will replace working equipment on a timeframe, rather than waiting for items to fail at some random time as they approach being worn out. This practice may seem inefficient, because they're not getting the full lifespan out of equipment. However, in the big picture it is the most economical solution, because they're not shutting down the plant with hundreds of idle workers over and over again as each of the tens of thousands of pieces of equipment break on their own schedules, because they reduce time wasted on diagnostics which is spent to find the cause of each preventable problem, and because equipment failures can cause other equipment failures, quality problems, wasted material, and recalls. Seen in this light, replacing working but end-of-life equipment is a lot more economical than letting them fail and having an emergency.

I wonder if that same mentality applies to households, which rely on a wide range of equipment to run. Consider yourself to have bought a couple of weeks to get your supplies and tools lined up for a WH replacement project.

Aardvark

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Thanks @ChpBstrd for another great reply.

I called the local plumbing store and they confirmed that a longer thermocouple would not be a safety risk. I just wanted to double check that part with this group.

The remaining safety concern that I have is aruond the weird therm-o-disc setup that I had to disconnect. I spoke to a plumber who said that disconnecting this is fine - but again, I am looking for a second oppinion.

The tank is installed on a pan. But I hear your point loud and clear. Milking another year out of this tank could end up costing more than the time and effort and money that it's worth. ... ... BUT this is a unique learning opportunity for me and I've had a great time so far. I've really enjoyed learning more about gas water heaters and a week ago I had never even heard the word thermocouple. Aditionally, our AC and furnace are both also 17 years old. I suspect that all three of these things (AC, furnance, and hot water tank) need to be replaced in the next year or so. I want to buy time to have the furnace and AC assessed and following that assessment I want time enough to design a cool modern solution that uses any possible utility, state, federal incentives for things like heat pumps. this will be quite a project, and if I need to replace the hot water tank immediately then I will probably be undermining a more fun and creative solution.

I hope that makes sense :)

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Been there, done that!

Things tend to fail on their own timeframes rather than kindly staggering themselves so that we can budget time and money. This is where the logic of the factory's preventative maintenance (PM) applies. We can think of a household as a factory which suffers losses (emergency plumbing or HVAC calls on weekends and holidays, having to take on debt, disruptions of business, secondary damage, having to take off work or cancel vacations) when a mechanical system fails unexpectedly.

Each of these systems has a different probability of failure and consequence of failure. A mission-critical factory with sufficient budget to spend would replace them all this week. But like a PM manager you might consider the different consequences of each system failing:

Consequences:
Water Heater: HIGH and IMMEDIATE: possible water damage to house, inability to do basic things like shower or use the dishwasher.
Furnace: HIGH and DELAYED: Unless you live in a cold climate, won't be an issue until about October. Then becomes a big deal making the house unlivable and risking burst pipes. Space heaters could quickly run your electric bill into the four figures.
AC: LOW and IMMEDIATE: You could probably mitigate the failure of the AC by going on CL or FB marketplace and buying 2-3 window AC units for maybe $200 total. This would get you through the summer, or even multiple summers. Then you could resell the AC units for about what you paid. Minor inconvenience.

Probability:
Water Heater: HIGH. These usually last 6-9 years. This WH is at or beyond twice its expected service life and at risk of imminent failure.
Furnace: LOW. Gas furnaces can last for decades.
AC: MEDIUM. This 17 y/o central AC could last another 5 years or it could die tomorrow.

Because the WH is both high/immediate consequence and high probability, I would focus on it first. The WH also happens to be the cheapest of the 3 systems to replace - the one you can DIY for about $1k or hire out for about $2k. So from the perspective of trying to not have an outage in your household, I'd get right on replacing the WH. Doing so shouldn't be too big of a setback if you're preparing to replace the AC and furnace - which are typically replaced together and will cost $10-15k.

If the WH is located indoors, and if you live in a high-humidity area, I would suggest looking into a heat pump water heater. You may have to run a new electrical line, but I've heard the efficiency gains and tax incentives make these a good deal in the long run. If you're not looking for the dehumidification benefits, it is most economical to just get another regular gas WH.

I do not recommend "instant" or "tankless" water heaters because I've heard so much about these failing within 1-3 years. That's just so much energy to concentrate in one spot that they tend to crack metal or toast circuit boards. Maybe this tech will evolve someday, but it's no bueno right now.

Get the WH risk out of the way and then focus your energies on researching and getting quotes for HVAC replacement.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7751
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Remember, you are tinkering with a gas appliance. Consequences are serious if the safety systems don't work.

Just go ahead and replace it. We purchased a HPWH and have really liked it. Makes hot water, uses less electricity, and dehumidifies the basement garage.