Author Topic: Water Seer - free water?  (Read 4552 times)

lifejoy

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Water Seer - free water?
« on: October 12, 2016, 08:58:36 AM »
Just saw the indiegogo page for water seer: http://waterseer.org/

To me it looks sustainable and awesome! But I'm not a veteran of environmentally friendly options. Anyone out there able to tell me if this is as awesome as it looks? I'm thinking of getting one for my parents. (They live on a farm).

Jack

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 09:15:36 AM »
If your parents have no access to first-world infrastructure, lack either the capital or the circumstances (e.g. access to groundwater or surface water) to collect and treat their water in a more conventional way, and only use "up to" 37 liters a day, then sure!

Otherwise, they're probably better off paying their water bill or digging a well or hooking their gutters up to a cistern or something.


EDIT: Actually... I take that back. If the average American uses 80-100 gallons per day and this device will provide 11-37 liters per day, then you need somewhere between 8 and 34 of them per person. Each one apparently costs $134, so a "Waterseer Orchard" (to use the flowery terminology from the website) supporting a 2-person household would cost between $2144 and $9112. That doesn't include piping and stuff (it assumes you're collecting the water from each device by hand), but IIRC that's not too bad compared to the cost of drilling a well or buying water-treatment equipment.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 09:28:38 AM by Jack »

bobechs

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 09:51:48 AM »
If your parents have no access to first-world infrastructure, lack either the capital or the circumstances (e.g. access to groundwater or surface water) to collect and treat their water in a more conventional way, and only use "up to" 37 liters a day, then sure!

Otherwise, they're probably better off paying their water bill or digging a well or hooking their gutters up to a cistern or something.


EDIT: Actually... I take that back. If the average American uses 80-100 gallons per day and this device will provide 11-37 liters per day, then you need somewhere between 8 and 34 of them per person. Each one apparently costs $134, so a "Waterseer Orchard" (to use the flowery terminology from the website) supporting a 2-person household would cost between $2144 and $9112. That doesn't include piping and stuff (it assumes you're collecting the water from each device by hand), but IIRC that's not too bad compared to the cost of drilling a well or buying water-treatment equipment.

I wouldn't be making comparative calculations based on the "up to" figures provided by the promoters if this device.  It seems apparent, even from the vague description of the principle of operation given, that constant high ambient humidity and very low shallow ground temperatures are optimal for condensation-based water recovery.  Eliminate either of those conditions and all bets are off.  Ask yourself: just how oppressive is the humidity year-round where I live?  just how chilly are well-digger's nether regions hereabouts?

I would not compare the economies of one technology with others until I had some more reliable information about yield in conditions similar to my own.  I think your stricken comments are closer to the mark.

Exflyboy

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 10:22:13 AM »
The first question any engineer will ask is "where does the energy come from?"

Condensing water takes energy.. This enegry comes from the warm moist air trying to heat the ground water.. Provided the ground water is always below the dewpoint of the moist then you will get condensed water.

But remember the ground is warming up.. eventually it may or may not stop working.. it will likely slow to a dribble.

As a poster above pointed out you need very moist air and cold ground to make it work... Those conditions are highly variable of course.

Exflyboy

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 11:14:29 AM »
I have friends in the Philippines who saw this and so I did a few rough calcs to show why it might not work.. Ultimately you'd have to try one.. Remember this is for a warm/wet climate.. Sub Saharan Africa would be have MUCH less moisture to extract..:)

Condensing water takes energy.. Where does the energy come from? Well the energy comes from the warm moist air trying to heat the ground water. That means the ground temperature has to be below the dewpoint of the warm moist air. What is the dewpoint?.. Well that is highly dependent on the humidity of the air of course. Lets take a hot wet climate.. say Philippines at 95F and 50%RH. Well to condense the moisture means you will have to cool the air to 73F (100% RH). Thats the point at which you are JUST getting water. So now lets cool it further and get some more water say 70F.. . So how much water is this? Air at 95F and 50% contains 0.0176 lbs of H20 per pound of air. air at 70F and 100% contains 0.0156 lb/lb. So the water you get out is 0.002lb of h20/lb air. so to get 1 gallon of water (about 8.34lb/gallon) means you will have to cool 4170 lbs of air to 70F.. or about 59,000 cubic feet. Now do you think your ground water will stay at 70F if you start pumping this quantity of warm air down there?.. Air at 95F and 50% RH is 42.5Btu/lb. Air at 70F and 100% is 34 BTU/lb.. or 8.5 BTU/lb difference* 4170 = 35,500 BTU. Thats a lot of energy. for 1 gallon of water. Do you think the ground water won't warm up if you start putting that amount of energy down there? Thats hard to calculate but I my gut tells me this will become pretty ineffective, even in warm/wet climates. If you could get one for free to try out it would be worth it, but I'm skepitcal. Disclaimer.. I did the calcs very quickly, there maybe errors..

lifejoy

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 04:01:20 PM »
Good to know! Rain barrels would make more sense for my parents. I appreciate the info!

nereo

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2016, 04:41:05 PM »
Do your parents live in Canada?  The total air moisture scales with air temperature, and it's non-linear (which is a fancy way of saying cold air can hold MUCH less than warm air). 
It might work during the humid summer months, but for much of Canada there will be many months when they won't be productive at all.

Add to this; in developed worlds water tends to be cheap; a small fraction of a cent per liter - around $1.50/cubic meter, which is $0.0015/liter.  Each one of these seems to cost $134.00USD (around $175CAD). Each one of these would have to filter 116,000 liters before you'd make your money back.  Even at the maximum extraction rate of 72liters per day (almost impossible in Canada for reasons listed above) it would take you 4.4 years before you got any 'return' on your investment. In practice it would probably be 10-20 years, and you'd need literally hundreds (if not thousands) to supply the water needs of even a small farm.

This kind of a device makes sense in warm tropical regions that don't have any water infrastructure.  Not so much in places like the US or Canada where we've invested billions to deliver water to 99% of customers.

lifejoy

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 07:12:13 AM »
Yep - they're in Canada!

Syonyk

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 07:58:17 PM »
You don't put your product on IndieGoGo if one of the other sites will take you...

Lots of handwaving, lots of "up to!" and lots of "But, look, green!"

I'm sure it will generate some amount of water, some of the time, in most conditions.  But it's unlikely to produce nearly what's advertised in most conditions.

bobechs

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Re: Water Seer - free water?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2016, 01:49:20 PM »
I wonder, although I don't wonder enough to take a swing at the calculations, how this device compares with the expected dollars-to-water-yield from just running the drain hose of a standard  air-conditioner or room dehumidifier into a bucket instead of a drain (or the side of a building) and calling the result magic condensate water?

Probably depends on how highly you value conditioned  or dehumidified air in your dwelling, I suppose...