Water Heater

[Jack]

I went down to the basement today to find a big puddle of water, with more streaming (slowly -- more than a drip, but not a flood) down the side of the tank. The leak appears to be from the joint where the hot water pipe exits.

The water heater in question is a bottom-of-the-line no-name gas 30-gallon, installed probably over 15 years ago. It owes me nothing.

Questions:

1. Is this fatal to the water heater, or could it be repaired? Even if it can, should I even bother versus replacing it, since it's so old?

2. What's the best way to go about replacing it? Just grab a similar one from Home Depot/Lowes and DIY it? Or is there some other place I can get a better deal (but still quickly)? Is there some good reason I should actually resort to hiring a plumber?

3. I wanted to renovate the house "soon" and go for some kind of fancier/eco-friendly option (gas tankless, heat pump electric, or maybe even solar or geothermal), but now the issue has become urgent. Is there some alternative strategy I could use to either (a) get eco-friendly without much redesign so that it could be completed quickly, (b) do some sort of stop-gap measure to buy time while I come up with a fancier permanent solution, or (c) choose my replacement plain-old tank-type gas water heater carefully in such a way that it could still be part of the future solution (e.g. get an extra-large one and in the future disconnect the gas and use it to store solar-heated water instead)?

[bradne]

Based on your description, it sounds like the leak is coming from the connecting lines at the actual threaded connection.   Based on that, then the repair should be pretty simple.   You may just be able to tighten the connection and resolve the issue.  If not, you may need replacement connecting lines.   This is a very simple answer based on what I am gathering from the description. 

To address your concern about the water heater,  newer ones are much more efficient than they were even 15 years ago so you may seriously  consider going ahead with whatever plan you decide.   Replacement is pretty simple, however if you are unsure of the repair for the leak you mentioned, you may feel that having someone do it for you will be worth the money. 

[zolotiyeruki]

If it's leaking at the outlet, that probably means the threads are all corroded out, and you're on borrowed time.  While bradne could be right, and it's a loose connection, I'm highly skeptical, given the age of the unit.  If you watch a few youtube videos and make sure you do it right, a replacement is definitely DIY-able, but it may be worth the expense to have a plumber come and inspect it to make sure you did it right.

From what I've heard (not first-hand, so take it FWIW), for most people, tankless water heaters do little to save money or the environment.  I'd opt for gas over heat pump, because 1) it's simpler, and 2) in the winter you'll have to make up that heat anyway, so you'd actually be using *more* energy in the winter.  On the other hand, it would slightly reduce the portion of your summer electricity consumption due to air conditioning, since it would be blowing out cold air.  A heat pump water heater is just like your A/C, except that instead of the big radiator outside the house pumping heat into the outside air, it's pumping heat into your water.  In terms of eco-friendliness, your best bets are probably 1) reduce your usage, followed by 2) solar water heater (which requires more redesign).

[FIRE me]

You might get lucky and it might be only a loose thread to be tightened, or it need may be a need a joint sweated. But given the age of the heater, like zolotiyeruki, I am suspicious of it.

I recently DIY replaced the water heater in my house. I helped a friend replace his a decade ago, but this was my first one doing it own my own.

It's not a great time to replace a gas water heater. New efficiency and safety regulations have come into effect, and that is coupled with essentially all heaters sold in the U.S. has recently moved production to Mexico.

You may have no trouble at all with a new heater, but reviews with complaints of pilot lights that won't stay lit, and pilotless heaters that won't heat water are not uncommon.

Another common compliant are cheap plastic gas regulators (the little box on the bottom front of the heater) that don't work well.

Many new water heaters have forced venting, like a furnace. And now they all have a super fine mesh screen that protects from flammable vapors. Unfortunately, the safety screen sometimes starves the burner and pilot light of oxygen.

I opted to go to a plumbing supply company (take cash, most don't take credit cards) and I got an American Standard model GS-40T water heater cheaper than the brands that Home Depot and Lowes are selling.

The American Standard was made in Mexico, but at least it has a metal gas regulator and a brass drain valve. It also has a pilot light, which I prefer over pilot less, since it does not need to plug in electrically (no power vent either) and it will produce hot water during power outages.

I can sweat small copper pipe, but I learned that ¾” is a lot harder. I wimped out on that and got Shark Bite fittings. They were a breeze to use. I did mange to sweat the vent tube, so maybe I don't have to give up my man card entirely.

Don't forget to get the correct goop to seal the black gas pipe, and a new union and any other black pipe fitting you remove are recommended.

Be sure to measure the height of your current heater, the closer the new one gets to that the easier it will be to plumb in the water, gas, lines and vent the vent pipe. If the new heater is too tall, you may not get the required 1/4” per foot of rise needed to properly exhaust the Carbon Monoxide gas.

[sokoloff]

I'd replace (and did the same when my old one failed, even though I'd also been planning for a tankless or indirect heater as part of a larger boiler replacement project). When mine failed, I replaced as physically like-for-like as I could. That was 8 years ago and I still haven't pulled the trigger on the boiler replacement project yet... :)

I sweated the pipes, as I'm a little old-school and find that more reliable than the new-fangled fittings. Black pipe unions can be re-used; if the tank is slightly different, you may need to measure and get a new size black pipe "nipple" (short length of male-to-male threaded black pipe) to get everything to line up. You will want a jar of the pipe dope that Fire Me mentions, and you may need to adapt the exhaust fittings (ultimately meaning you might need refractory cement to make a new connection into the chimney). If you're willing to throw a little money at the problem, putting two copper unions in the water piping will make the job easier, but a good whack of money more, so I skip them. Be sure to sweat (solder) the connections to the water heater with the pipes NOT connected to the water heater. (You can screw them into the old one if you like to hold them, but the heat from soldering can harm the heater, so solder the last female fittings with the pipe in free air or a vise.)

IMO, it's all doable by a committed DIYer, provided you're willing to not accept half-assed solutions. This is not a place to accept:

[Jack]

I opted to go to a plumbing supply company (take cash, most don't take credit cards) and I got an American Standard model GS-40T water heater cheaper than the brands that Home Depot and Lowes are selling.

The American Standard was made in Mexico, but at least it has a metal gas regulator and a brass drain valve. It also has a pilot light, which I prefer over pilot less, since it does not need to plug in electrically (no power vent either) and it will produce hot water during power outages.

Thanks for mentioning that! It reminded me that I don't have an electrical connection for the water heater to begin with (there's one nearby for the furnace, but I'm not about to mess with the electrical today), so I need to make sure to remember not to get a replacement with electric ignition.

Can anybody recommend a plumbing supply store in Atlanta? I have no idea how to choose the right one (I have the same problem with all sort of "non-retail" trade stores: I don't know how to find a good lumberyard or electrical supply place either...).

My water heater connects to the gas line not with black pipe directly, but instead with a flexible metal hose. Should I re-use that or change it?

[Tomacco]

water heaters last me spot on 20 years. they always give me issues after that. you can re use the flexible gas line, assuming its not damaged- theyre easier to work with than the hard lines. i just go to the big box stores, like menards or lowes- its no specailty item- just a gas water heater.
turn off the gas & water, empty the tank, take off the 2 water and 1 gas connections,set new unit is place, replace connections, turn on water, turn on gas, light. takes me about an hour

[Fishindude]

My plumber friend tells me the average lifespan of a water heater is 10-12 years.
I'd just replace it and be at ease that you are good to go for another decade.

[FIRE me]

Thanks for mentioning that! It reminded me that I don't have an electrical connection for the water heater to begin with (there's one nearby for the furnace, but I'm not about to mess with the electrical today), so I need to make sure to remember not to get a replacement with electric ignition.

Can anybody recommend a plumbing supply store in Atlanta? I have no idea how to choose the right one (I have the same problem with all sort of "non-retail" trade stores: I don't know how to find a good lumberyard or electrical supply place either...).

My water heater connects to the gas line not with black pipe directly, but instead with a flexible metal hose. Should I re-use that or change it?

Any plumbing supply company is good as long as it:
Is willing to sell to the general public (you).
Has a water heater that you want in stock.
Has the water heater at a good price.

There are no returns. When you first fill the heater with cold water, it is yours. Defective ones are a warranty issue.

About the flex hose, lucky you! That will make the install that much easier. Considering that a new flex hose is around $20, I would buy a new one.

About the electrical, the ones that require it that I have seen are not hard wired. They plug into a standard 110v outlet.

[sisto]

I opted to go to a plumbing supply company (take cash, most don't take credit cards) and I got an American Standard model GS-40T water heater cheaper than the brands that Home Depot and Lowes are selling.

The American Standard was made in Mexico, but at least it has a metal gas regulator and a brass drain valve. It also has a pilot light, which I prefer over pilot less, since it does not need to plug in electrically (no power vent either) and it will produce hot water during power outages.

Thanks for mentioning that! It reminded me that I don't have an electrical connection for the water heater to begin with (there's one nearby for the furnace, but I'm not about to mess with the electrical today), so I need to make sure to remember not to get a replacement with electric ignition.

Can anybody recommend a plumbing supply store in Atlanta? I have no idea how to choose the right one (I have the same problem with all sort of "non-retail" trade stores: I don't know how to find a good lumberyard or electrical supply place either...).

My water heater connects to the gas line not with black pipe directly, but instead with a flexible metal hose. Should I re-use that or change it?

Definitely change the flexible gas shut-off hose too.

[Spork]

FIRE me already said it, but it bears repeating:  Make sure it has a proper brass drain valve. 

The plastic drain valves are crap.  Often the first time you drain them will be the last time you can close the valve.  And they are commonly not serviceable, so the whole unit will get tossed due to a faulty valve.  (Been there.  Done that.)

On our current house we put in a tankless, but as has been said: I'm not sure if we'll actually see the savings.  They are nice from the fact that they're a small footprint, but if you're replacing existing, you obviously have room for a tank already.

[Jack]

Success!

I ended up with this model. It took me a while to figure out what to get: I first went to Lowes on Sunday night, and they only had stuff in the ~$450 range. Then on Monday I went to Ferguson plumbing supply, and the cheapest thing they had in stock was over $500. Then I went to Home Depot and found that model for $419, but while I was waiting for an employee to help me I checked lowes.com again on my phone -- and found that all of their water heaters were 10% off. So rather than go back to Lowes, I just asked Home Depot for a price match. It turns out their policy is to beat the competitor price by 10%, so I ended up getting the whole thing for $362, including tax!

Unfortunately, I ended up with a model with a plastic drain valve, but $200 less than I would have had to pay for the plumbing supply store's model (which, for all I know, might have been plastic too) makes it worth it, right?

One thing I'm happy about is that I got a model shorter than I had before and set it on top of some concrete blocks. I've had some flooding issues in my basement before (including some that could have damaged the previous water heater, but luckily didn't) so I'm glad to get the thing up off the floor.

Now, I've got the thing working, but I'm not 100% happy with the installation: having not read sisto's post yet at the time, I reused my flexible gas hose. It isn't leaking as far as I can tell, but should I remove it and replace it anyway, or leave it be?

I replaced the flexible water hose on the hot side and added one on the cold side. (Before, it had been plumbed with hard copper pipe all the way to the water heater... which turned out to be structural, supporting the weight of the expansion tank. I had to add extra pipe hangers to the joists above.) However, the height isn't quite right, so the steel-braided hoses are bent pretty close to the limits of their flexibility. I'm considering cutting off the pipes much higher, using longer hoses, and while I'm at it installing a shut-off valve on the hot side and a better one on the cold side (e.g. ball valves instead of the kind I have now that has a circular handle so you can't tell if it's open or closed just by looking).

Finally, I had to cut through the PVC condensate drip line for my air conditioner to get the heater into place (which is fine because I was having problems with it clogging anyway), so this weekend I'll definitely be redoing that. Is there any reason I shouldn't plumb the AC condensate, T&P relief valve line, and condensate line from my basement dehumidifier into the same pipe?

[FIRE me]

Is there any reason I shouldn't plumb the AC condensate, T&P relief valve line, and condensate line from my basement dehumidifier into the same pipe?

That would be a code violation. Whether you care about that, or not, is of course your call.

https://www.nachi.org/tpr-valves-discharge-piping.htm?loadbetadesign=0

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/code-ref-tpr-valve-piping-8003/

[FINate]

Codes are usually there for a reason. My guess: plumbing them together could cause a problem if it backs up downstream of the junction thereby causing backflow into the other unit.

[Jack]

Is there any reason I shouldn't plumb the AC condensate, T&P relief valve line, and condensate line from my basement dehumidifier into the same pipe?

That would be a code violation. Whether you care about that, or not, is of course your call.

https://www.nachi.org/tpr-valves-discharge-piping.htm?loadbetadesign=0

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/code-ref-tpr-valve-piping-8003/

Glad I asked! Currently, I just have a straight copper pipe going down the side of the heater to a few inches above the floor. I guess I'll leave it like that, for now. I don't care if the floor gets wet in exceptional conditions.

(I can't use the old discharge pipe, because the old heater had the valve at the top -- higher than the new valve -- and the pipe ran horizontally 20 feet to the outside from there. Since there was no air gap, it sounds like that might not have met code anyway. I could plumb a new horizontal pipe lower than the old one, but I don't really want to if I don't have to. I wish I had a convenient floor drain...)

Is it code-legal for the AC and dehumidifier to share a drain?

[zolotiyeruki]

One option for the copper pipe ending 6" from the floor is to get some 2" CPVC elbows and pipe, and set it up to catch water coming out of the discharge pipe like so:

Code: [Select]

|| <---pipe from water heater
 ||
 ||
 ||
 ||
    <----- air gap

|   |
\   \
 \   \______
  \    2" CPVC ----> to drain
   \________


[Spork]

If you're bringing it up to code, I believe you also should check that you:
* have a catch pan for if it leaks again that is plumbed to drain outside.  (Alternatively, I think you can have a catch pan that contains a water sensor and an auto shutoff valve... but it's unlikely that a catch pan is going to hold 50 gallons if it really starts to leak.)
* since it's gas, the heater should be elevated at least 18 inches above the floor

I am not a plumber... double check me on those.  I have just seen a lot of water heaters replaced since that code changed.

[Jack]

If you're bringing it up to code, I believe you also should check that you:
* have a catch pan for if it leaks again that is plumbed to drain outside.  (Alternatively, I think you can have a catch pan that contains a water sensor and an auto shutoff valve... but it's unlikely that a catch pan is going to hold 50 gallons if it really starts to leak.)
* since it's gas, the heater should be elevated at least 18 inches above the floor

I am not a plumber... double check me on those.  I have just seen a lot of water heaters replaced since that code changed.

Thanks for the tips.

I suppose I could install a catch pan, but I'm not overly concerned because it's in an unfinished basement. (And because, frankly, I'm more concerned about water coming from elsewhere damaging the water heater rather than vice-versa. Long story short, there's nowhere outside lower than the basement for the water to drain to. Re-grading is on my to-do list but it's complicated because there's a driveway and the outside water supply line involved.)

I did raise my water heater up off the floor, but only by 8", not 18". Any higher and I would have had to completely re-do the venting to both it and my HVAC. But it turns out that's okay! I ran across the acronym "FVIR" in the links FIRE me mentioned, which apparently stands for Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant. Since my new water heater is FVIR, it didn't have to be raised off the floor anyway.


Really, the best solution to all my appliance -- and other -- drainage problems would be to install a floor drain. Unfortunately, the main waste pipe for the house runs along the basement ceiling, drops down along the front wall of the house, and appears to exit through the wall with a clean-out just above the floor. I get the impression that if I wanted to do any sort of plumbing in the basement (other than for a sink or washing machine) I'd have to worry about pumps.

[FIRE me]

Is there any reason I shouldn't plumb the AC condensate, T&P relief valve line, and condensate line from my basement dehumidifier into the same pipe?

That would be a code violation. Whether you care about that, or not, is of course your call.

https://www.nachi.org/tpr-valves-discharge-piping.htm?loadbetadesign=0

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/code-ref-tpr-valve-piping-8003/

Glad I asked! Currently, I just have a straight copper pipe going down the side of the heater to a few inches above the floor. I guess I'll leave it like that, for now. I don't care if the floor gets wet in exceptional conditions.

(I can't use the old discharge pipe, because the old heater had the valve at the top -- higher than the new valve -- and the pipe ran horizontally 20 feet to the outside from there. Since there was no air gap, it sounds like that might not have met code anyway. I could plumb a new horizontal pipe lower than the old one, but I don't really want to if I don't have to. I wish I had a convenient floor drain...)

Is it code-legal for the AC and dehumidifier to share a drain?

I'm no expert, but as far as I know it is ok. However, if the drain is hooked up to either a sewer or septic system, the AC drain pipe must (by code) have an air gap somewhere in the run. This is to prevent sewage back up into the air handler.

[Spork]

Is there any reason I shouldn't plumb the AC condensate, T&P relief valve line, and condensate line from my basement dehumidifier into the same pipe?

That would be a code violation. Whether you care about that, or not, is of course your call.

https://www.nachi.org/tpr-valves-discharge-piping.htm?loadbetadesign=0

https://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/code-ref-tpr-valve-piping-8003/

Glad I asked! Currently, I just have a straight copper pipe going down the side of the heater to a few inches above the floor. I guess I'll leave it like that, for now. I don't care if the floor gets wet in exceptional conditions.

(I can't use the old discharge pipe, because the old heater had the valve at the top -- higher than the new valve -- and the pipe ran horizontally 20 feet to the outside from there. Since there was no air gap, it sounds like that might not have met code anyway. I could plumb a new horizontal pipe lower than the old one, but I don't really want to if I don't have to. I wish I had a convenient floor drain...)

Is it code-legal for the AC and dehumidifier to share a drain?

I'm no expert, but as far as I know it is ok. However, if the drain is hooked up to either a sewer or septic system, the AC drain pipe must (by code) have an air gap somewhere in the run. This is to prevent sewage back up into the air handler.

My understanding (which comes 100% from observation... I haven't actually read code).  ACs should have 2 drains.  One goes to sewer/septic.  A second drain comes from a catch pan (in case the first backs up) and drains outside in a plainly visible spot.  Usually it's by a door or outside a window.  I haven't dealt with dehumidifiers, but I'd wildly guess they are similar.