Freeze Protection for Water and Drain Lines to Above-The Garage Apartment

[Enough]

My parents have an 2.5 car unheated and detached garage and I am helping them finish the second floor into a studio apartment to rent out.  It is already plumbed, but the contractor ran the supply lines through the garage ceiling (apartment floor) joists.  My dad wants to rip these out and install as much as possible through the apartment walls as he is worried about freezing. 

I am thinking that (1) there has to be an easier way to prevent them from freezing and (2) you obviously cant route the drain lines through the walls - so what are we going to do about the shower trap / toilet trap / washer floor drain trap which will all have non-flowing water in that same area.

Anyone know the best way to handle this? It would be horribly inefficient to get a space heater / thermostat set up to keep it above 32deg in his unfinished garage.

We live on the edge of zone 6&7:

[Fishindude]

The edge of regions 6/7 is not an area where you will have to worry too much about freezing pipes, but there may be those occasional instances.
If the drain traps are concealed in the second floor joist cavity and that space is insulated, I doubt they will be a problem.   If the traps are exposed to view in an unheated garage below, they are in jeopardy of freezing.
You will want the floor system insulated anyway or you will have cold floors.   Also need to seal the floor / ceiling system real good so you don't get the exhaust from cars below getting upstairs.

Assume the water line is ran underground to the garage, then inside the garage, then up to the overhead apartment.    You need to protect it from freezing where it passes through the unheated garage.   This could be accomplished by creating a well insulated enclosure around it and / or wrapping the line in an electric heat trace.   Note - Not a big fan of relying solely on the heat trace tape, they tend to go bad and do you no good if the power is out.

[lthenderson]

As someone who owns a cabin on the southern edge of zone 7 that has had a number of frozen pipes over the years, it is definitely something to be concerned with. Since we are only there part of the time and when we are there, there is enough heat radiating into the crawlspace to prevent freezing, we just pour RV antifreeze in the traps and toilet and have a series of drain valves at low points of the plumbing to remove standing water before we leave.

If it were me, I would make sure to insulate the bottom of the floor and keep the piping between the insulation and subfloor so it is within the heated envelope of the unit above the garage. You can't  do that for the water supply lines coming up from underground to the unit above though. For that, especially in the zone you are in, I would make sure they are well insulated and I would just crack open the faucet to a slow dribble on those really cold below freezing nights. If it were a sustained cold snap coming my way, I would have a space heater that you could turn on just for those few days.

As stated above, installing a good quality insulated garage door will go a long ways towards retaining enough heat to perhaps prevent freezing in all but the coldest days. Although I don't think it is allowable in many codes if any anymore, my house was built with an hvac register in the garage so every time the heat kicks on, it throws some heat into the garage. I live in zone 5 and this is enough to keep the garage above freezing all year round.

[Enough]

Thanks for the feedback! I think we will do some combination of re-routing the lines to within the apartment walls and joist insulation.
I originally wanted to run everything close to the subfloor, but quickly realized that would risk being penetrated by future hardwood flooring nails.  Definitely need to leave some room between the subfloor and water supply lines.

[Jon Bon]

PTF.

I am in zone six, and it gets cold enough here that I have NOT run water to my garage despite having the conduit run for it.

However I am going to finish my garage upstairs due to needed the "Covid Space"

If it was as simple as heating the upstairs room, no problem, But water has to run out of the ground of the garage up and  non-insulated unfinished wall into the garage before it gets into the finished space.

You can buy heater wires and stuff, but that feels like too much work, and frankly I just dont love the idea. Anyone had good experience with them? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frost-King-6-ft-Electric-Water-Pipe-Heat-Cable-HC6A/202262328

I am only worried about supply, I assume waste would be fine. Either do antifreeze, empty the trap or they would dry out out. I mean how much water is in the sink tap, almost none. If it froze it would be a slight annoyance versus a supply line letting go and wrecking the entire area.  I guess a bunch of values on the supply line would work. Just feels like just enough of a PITA to outweigh the benefit of water/bath in the garage.

[lthenderson]

I live in zone 5 and am planning to build a separate workshop/2 car garage for future occupants and would like to have running water in the place but not have to heat it all winter long. My plan is to put a water tank within the heated envelope that gravity feeds to a sink. As long as I'm working in there, I can leave the heat running. But if I decide I won't be out there for a few weeks, I plan to just open up a drain and let the tank drain out. For incoming water, I am going to install an outdoor hydrant where the valve is way below frost line and just connect up a hose to fill up the tank and then disconnect the hose. I would think you could do this for your apartment except get a larger tank so that you don't have to refill it very often.

[Jon Bon]

I started insulating today. I just had some extra R-13 laying around that I point between the studs.

I am thinking I will go with a portable AC/heat unit. They run about $500 bucks or so. This will be mainly an on-demand feature. So it being such a small space it would not take long to heat or cool to a comfortable temp.

I had thought about mini-splits or gas garage heaters but just feels way to complicated. I am thinking this will be the "Covid Panic Room" CPR for short perhaps? And an occasional guest space.

I still am torn on the bathroom, its not huge (12*12) which is fine. But should I shrink to 9*12 with a bath? It would be nice to have, a killer guest space and CPR. I think water I will just add the drains to the supply lines and antifreeze the toilet over the winter. It could easily be used over winter as a guest space just would need to drip the water type thing over night.

[Jon Bon]

Progress continues.

Sorry @Enough for stealing your thread. So I have all the baffles in and r-19 insulation in the ceiling. I might do some rigid foam on top of that but probably not as it will be a pretty limited use room if its below freezing or above 90. Electrical is done and I will probably start to sheet rock this weekend.

Also I want to do something like this for a bathroom

https://standpage.com/

I wanted it to be legit but also not a space hot. So I could put this anywhere, or is this just way too gross? I was just going to gravity feed it with small 1-5 gallon jug of water.

Either way its a sweet idea, but im looking for cheap options!

[Aegishjalmur]

Maybe heat wrap or something similar?
https://www.qcsupply.com/wrap-on-pipe-heating-cables.html#:~:text=Designed%20to%20protect%20metal%2C%20copper,on%20at%2038%C2%B0%20F.

[Jon Bon]

Maybe heat wrap or something similar?
https://www.qcsupply.com/wrap-on-pipe-heating-cables.html#:~:text=Designed%20to%20protect%20metal%2C%20copper,on%20at%2038%C2%B0%20F.

Im not doing water supply. If anything ill do a 5 gallon jug into a little sink for hand washing and paint brushes type thing.

Those things work fine, until you get a power outrage in the winter. I just dont want to worry about it in the winter.

[lthenderson]

Progress continues.

Sorry @Enough for stealing your thread. So I have all the baffles in and r-19 insulation in the ceiling. I might do some rigid foam on top of that but probably not as it will be a pretty limited use room if its below freezing or above 90. Electrical is done and I will probably start to sheet rock this weekend.

Also I want to do something like this for a bathroom

https://standpage.com/

I wanted it to be legit but also not a space hot. So I could put this anywhere, or is this just way too gross? I was just going to gravity feed it with small 1-5 gallon jug of water.

Either way its a sweet idea, but im looking for cheap options!

I would put one of those in my shop. The thing I would worry about is where it goes and what is required by local laws. I would assume it would have to be plumbed into a sanitary sewer or a septic tank but don't know the legal aspects of only having "number one" coming out.

[Jon Bon]

Progress continues.

Sorry @Enough for stealing your thread. So I have all the baffles in and r-19 insulation in the ceiling. I might do some rigid foam on top of that but probably not as it will be a pretty limited use room if its below freezing or above 90. Electrical is done and I will probably start to sheet rock this weekend.

Also I want to do something like this for a bathroom

https://standpage.com/

I wanted it to be legit but also not a space hot. So I could put this anywhere, or is this just way too gross? I was just going to gravity feed it with small 1-5 gallon jug of water.

Either way its a sweet idea, but im looking for cheap options!

I would put one of those in my shop. The thing I would worry about is where it goes and what is required by local laws. I would assume it would have to be plumbed into a sanitary sewer or a septic tank but don't know the legal aspects of only having "number one" coming out.

Yeah I like the idea, but at ~$1000 I think I can find something better. I can put in a whole bathroom for that!

Local laws? Meh, its really not even hooked up to anything plus its none of their business. Usage? a few time a week maybe? Its not much difference then me watering the lawn currently......

[lthenderson]

I would put one of those in my shop. The thing I would worry about is where it goes and what is required by local laws. I would assume it would have to be plumbed into a sanitary sewer or a septic tank but don't know the legal aspects of only having "number one" coming out.

Local laws? Meh, its really not even hooked up to anything plus its none of their business. Usage? a few time a week maybe? Its not much difference then me watering the lawn currently......

Most likely you can get away with it if you don't have inspection permits for new construction, at least until you go to sell the place and the buyer's inspector brings up all these issues. That is where these things typically get caught and then have to be fixed... if it is even an issue. Like I said, I don't know the legalities of a urine only dispenser in your lawn.

[Jon Bon]

I would put one of those in my shop. The thing I would worry about is where it goes and what is required by local laws. I would assume it would have to be plumbed into a sanitary sewer or a septic tank but don't know the legal aspects of only having "number one" coming out.

Local laws? Meh, its really not even hooked up to anything plus its none of their business. Usage? a few time a week maybe? Its not much difference then me watering the lawn currently......

Most likely you can get away with it if you don't have inspection permits for new construction, at least until you go to sell the place and the buyer's inspector brings up all these issues. That is where these things typically get caught and then have to be fixed... if it is even an issue. Like I said, I don't know the legalities of a urine only dispenser in your lawn.

Yeah we already passed all our inspections. IM not pulling a permit for insulation and sheet rock, im not even sure if you need too in an unconditioned space.

I was going to make it removable as in not there if/when we sell. I mean it is kind of a strange thing. 10% of your buyers will think its bad-ass, but 90% will think its strange and what was this weirdo doing!