Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 08:26:50 AM
- The expensive yeast that you would normally buy becomes the same cost as some water and flour.
- Sourdough bread made with white flour is actually healthier than regular whole wheat bread when looking at insulin response (http://www.ctvnews.ca/sourdough-bread-may-be-better-than-whole-wheat-1.307157 (http://www.ctvnews.ca/sourdough-bread-may-be-better-than-whole-wheat-1.307157))
- Sourdough is chock full of probiotics if you're into that sort of thing
- Sourdough has been shown to reduce gluten intolerance in people with celiac disease (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/can-celiacs-eat-true-sourdough-bread/ (http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/can-celiacs-eat-true-sourdough-bread/))
- The bread tastes awesome.
- It's really, really easy.
Making your own sourdough starter
Alright . . . so how do I get on this sourdough bandwagon of awesomeness? First you need a starter. A starter culture is basically a bunch of yeast (and some good bacteria) kicking around in a bowl with some flour and water. Steven's foolproof way to get your starter going:
Step 1:
Take 1/4 cup of warm water, take about 1/2 cup of whole wheat or whole grain flour (I find that white bleached flour doesn't work well to get the starter going). Stick it in a container or bowl big enough to hold 3-4 cups of stuff or more. Cover the top with a plastic bag or some plastic wrap. Let sit for 12 hours. Check the starter. If you see some bubbles forming move on to step 2. If not, wait another 12 hours. Again, if you see bubbles move on to step to. If after a day and a half you don't see any bubbles starting to form and it hasn't risen, rinse out the container and try again (maybe try some different flour).
Step 2:
Alright! Your starter has been born! Now you just need to strengthen it. To do this, we will feed it some flour and water it regularly. Don't worry, you just have to do this for a couple days.
You started with 1/4 cup of warm water and 1/2 cup of whole wheat. You're going to add the same amount of water, but this time use regular old white flour. Let the yeast bubble away for another 12 hours. When you check on your new baby, you will notice that it has grown considerably. If it's getting too big for your container, scoop out half of it and toss it away.
Keep adding about an equivalent amount of warm water and white flour to your starter as there is starter in the bowl every 12 hours for about three days. At this point your starter should be raring to bake with.
Care and feeding of your sourdough starter:
My rule of thumb is that every 12 hours your starter is at room temperature, you need to use/discard half of the starter and add an equivalent amount of water/flour mixture. This keeps your sourdough starter happy and healthy. If you leave it out on the counter for 2 days or more it might pick up some funny smells/colours and no longer be good for baking.
If you don't want to keep feeding the starter every day I've had great luck sticking it in the fridge for up to two weeks. Just make sure to do a feeding before you put it in the fridge, and let the starter completely warm up on the counter before you try baking with it.
Next up . . . some easy and delicious recipes for your new sourdough starter!
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 08:36:17 AM
1/3 cup starter
1 cup Whole wheat flour
5 cups White bread flour
2 1/2 cups warm water
2 tsp Salt
Mix the water and sourdough starter together in a bowl, then add the whole wheat flour and salt. Keep mixing in the bowl and adding white flour until it starts to form a ball. pour some flour on a board and coat your hands with flour. Move the doughball on to the board and knead the flour in. You want the dough to be just a little bit moist but not super sticky to your fingers. Depending on the consistency of your starter you might not need to use all of the flour.
Once you've got your dough ball made, divide it into two smaller balls. Stick the small balls into small baking tins (I usually grease the tins with some olive oil). Cover the tins with some plastic baggies/saran wrap and leave some place room temperature for 8-10 hours. The balls should roughly double in size (not double in height though, they get wider) over this time.
Take off the plastic baggies, use a sharp knife to score a cut down the middle of each loaf and Stick 'em in the oven at 375 for about 45 minutes. Remove from oven and enjoy delicious bread!
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 08:41:55 AM
1 1/2 cup sourdough starter
1 tablespoon olive oil
1 teaspoon Salt
1 1/2 cups of flour
Mix everything together and knead the dough into a ball. Let the dough sit for an hour or so. Preheat your oven to 450 degrees. Stick the dough on a pizza pan or large baking tray that has been covered in olive oil, and stretch or roll out the dough. Add your pizza toppings, and then bake for 15 - 20 minutes (the amount of toppings can really change baking time).
Post by: davisgang90 on September 19, 2013, 08:49:32 AM
Thanks for sharing!
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 08:50:50 AM
1 cup of starter
2 tablespoons honey
2 cups of milk (2% or whole milk tastes better)
4 cups of unbleached white flour
Stick all of the above ingredients in a bowl and just mix them enough to get all the flour wet. Wait eight hours (do this the night before if you want English muffins for breakfast).
After you've waited 8 hours add in:
1-2 cups unbleached white flour
2 teaspoons sea salt
1 teaspoon baking soda
Work the dough on a bread board until it's not sticking too much to your hands. then I just roll the stuff out about an inch or so high and cut it into English muffin sized pieces. Sprinkle some flour on top of them, and then let the pieces rise for about 20 - 30 minutes.
To cook them up, heat some butter in a pan on low or medium (the temperature is tricky) and cook the english muffins for about 4 minutes a side. They seem to cook better if you squish them down a bit with your spatula as you're cooking. I always set the temperature too hot and burn the outside of my English muffins for the first few.
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 09:01:26 AM
1 egg
1.5 teaspoons vanilla
1/4 cup oil
1 cup sourdough starter
3/4 cup blueberries
1 smooshed up banana
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 cup whole wheat flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 cup sugar
1/4 cup vanilla or non-flavoured protein powder
Mix up the dry ingredients in one bowl, and then mix up the wet ingredients in another bowl. Preheat your oven to 425. Get your muffin tins ready (you really want to put cups in them or use a non-stick spray, because these little buggers are very hard to get out of the tins otherwise). Mix the wet stuff with the dry stuff until everything's wet, then ladle out into the muffin tins. (Should make about 8 good sized muffins). Bake for about 16 minutes (keep an eye on them, it can be easy to burn the tops).
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 09:02:42 AM
Awesome stuff! I've wanted to make my own starter and now I can!
Thanks for sharing!
No problem. It's pretty easy as long as you remember to make the starter with whole wheat flour.
If anyone else has recipes that you like for sourdough, please post them up!
Post by: davisgang90 on September 19, 2013, 11:48:27 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 12:31:55 PM
I'm inherently lazy and own a bread maker, have you used these recipes in a bread maker?
If you can adjust the time delay to allow bread to rise I think the bread machine should work fine. Sourdough bread usually takes about 8 or 9 hours to rise properly (the wild yeast is not as fast as commercially developed stuff), so you could get your machine to mix it all, wait 8 hours, then get the machine to bake it (or just throw it in the oven).
I have tried making sourdough bread with regular bread machine rise times in ours. The bread will bake, but won't rise much at all. Comes out as dense as a hockey puck.
Post by: decibelle on September 19, 2013, 12:41:30 PM
When I read you give raw dough to your dog I was a little shocked. I thought it was poisonous? http://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/bread-dough/
Post by: GuitarStv on September 19, 2013, 12:49:13 PM
Sourdough also doesn't expand anywhere near as fast as commercial yeast in bread dough, and I was just giving her a tablespoon of the stuff on her kibble. It's never seemed to cause her any problem. My last dog was a 12 lb spaniel, and she once ate got into and ate an entire bowl of sourdough starter (about three cups) and didn't have any problems. I've also read from several places that feeding dogs yeast helps to prevent fleas.
That said, I'll modify my original post to remove mention of dogs as I certainly wouldn't want anyone's pet being hurt due to my advice!
Can you share your sourdough pancake recipe?
Post by: Spork on September 19, 2013, 12:56:38 PM
And if you have a good one with it's own intricate/delicious tastes, you can spread it out thin, let it dry a bit, crunch it up and share it with your friends.
Post by: totoro on September 19, 2013, 01:14:21 PM
Post by: decibelle on September 19, 2013, 03:10:25 PM
It's not actually dough that I was feeding her, but leftover sourdough starter. The starter has already completed it's rise when it's being thrown out, so I suspect that it's not the same thing that article is talking about.
Sourdough also doesn't expand anywhere near as fast as commercial yeast in bread dough, and I was just giving her a tablespoon of the stuff on her kibble. It's never seemed to cause her any problem. My last dog was a 12 lb spaniel, and she once ate got into and ate an entire bowl of sourdough starter (about three cups) and didn't have any problems. I've also read from several places that feeding dogs yeast helps to prevent fleas.
That said, I'll modify my original post to remove mention of dogs as I certainly wouldn't want anyone's pet being hurt due to my advice!
Can you share your sourdough pancake recipe?
That makes sense. Commercial yeast would probably be bad for dogs. Anyway, here's an easy recipe for sourdough pancakes. The last time I made it, I topped it with grilled peaches and blueberries. :) http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/SourdoughPancakes.htm
Post by: GuitarStv on September 20, 2013, 06:17:31 AM
Anyway, here's an easy recipe for sourdough pancakes. The last time I made it, I topped it with grilled peaches and blueberries. :) http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/SourdoughPancakes.htm
I am ashamed to admit it, but I've never made sourdough pancakes. I know what we'll be having for breakfast on Saturday . . . thanks for sharing!
Post by: decibelle on September 20, 2013, 08:42:16 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on September 23, 2013, 06:23:24 AM
Post by: NumberCruncher on September 23, 2013, 06:41:43 AM
Started my starter a couple weeks ago or so, and this was my first time doing it the full-on slow rise bread with no added commercial yeast. Taste was pretty fantastic - so much waiting time, though!
Post by: GuitarStv on September 23, 2013, 07:43:10 AM
Made sourdough pancakes and bread yesterday. :) Did anyone else find the sourdough pancake batter to be really thick/bubbly at first, then get progressively thinner? We were doing one 'cake at a time in a pan as we don't have a griddle, so maybe it just took too long and yeast started dying? No clue O.o
Started my starter a couple weeks ago or so, and this was my first time doing it the full-on slow rise bread with no added commercial yeast. Taste was pretty fantastic - so much waiting time, though!
I usually mix up my bread the night before, then wake up in the morning to bake it . . . that way there's no real waiting time, you're asleep!
Post by: NumberCruncher on September 23, 2013, 08:12:44 AM
Made sourdough pancakes and bread yesterday. :) Did anyone else find the sourdough pancake batter to be really thick/bubbly at first, then get progressively thinner? We were doing one 'cake at a time in a pan as we don't have a griddle, so maybe it just took too long and yeast started dying? No clue O.o
Started my starter a couple weeks ago or so, and this was my first time doing it the full-on slow rise bread with no added commercial yeast. Taste was pretty fantastic - so much waiting time, though!
I usually mix up my bread the night before, then wake up in the morning to bake it . . . that way there's no real waiting time, you're asleep!
The recipe I was using was King Arthur Flour's "Extra Tangy" sourdough - which had mix, 4 hour wait, put in fridge 12 hours, mix in more flour, wait 4 hours, form dough, wait 2 hours. O.o Imma do the just rest overnight option next time ;)
Post by: Li on September 23, 2013, 06:51:59 PM
Sourdough Pizza Crusts:
Thanks for the recipe. Have you tried the pizza crusts on a baking stone? I'm wondering if you would put olive oil on the stone first or just put the pizza crust directly on the stone?
Post by: jawisco on September 23, 2013, 08:53:50 PM
I have been making sourdough bread weekly for over 5 years. I love the flexibility and taste of sourdough bread. Here is my recipe:
1)In the AM sometime, take my starter from fridge and put into large bowl. Add cup of water. Stir for 10 seconds. Add flour till it is about pancake batter consistency. Stir for 10 seconds. Cover with plastic bag or saran wrap and put somewhere at room temperature.
2)At least 4 hours later or up to 12 hours (very flexible), stir starter mix for 5 seconds, take out 1/2 and put in container and into fridge. Then I add 2 cups of water, 1 TB of salt, and keep adding flour until the bread is at proper consistency (I don't measure the flour because I use different grains and proportions of WW flour in each loaf). Put bread dough in fridge overnight.
3) Take out dough in AM and let it come to room temp. Then I punch it down, give it a few kneads, and shape my loaf (I free form on cookie sheet). I spread some oil on top, cover with plastic and hand towel, and wait till it is almost double. Then I put it into oven at 475 degrees and then turn down to 400 after 15 minutes and then cook until done.
This recipe sounds long, but it is very, very little hands-on time and all that time is developing great flavor. The only part of recipe that requires timing is the final rise - everything else is super flexible. Don't be a slave to your bread! I make my bread in kitchenaid mixer, so my hands on time for a complete loaf is less than 15 minutes.
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on September 23, 2013, 09:23:25 PM
Post by: worms on September 24, 2013, 12:08:17 AM
The only part of recipe that requires timing is the final rise - everything else is super flexible. Don't be a slave to your bread!
Absolutely! Best piece of advice on this thread!
Post by: GuitarStv on September 24, 2013, 06:47:47 AM
Sourdough Pizza Crusts:
Thanks for the recipe. Have you tried the pizza crusts on a baking stone? I'm wondering if you would put olive oil on the stone first or just put the pizza crust directly on the stone?
I've never used a baking stone and don't really know how they work. If the olive oil runs off of it though, I guess you could dust it with flour or cornmeal to prevent sticking.
Post by: GuitarStv on September 24, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
Made sourdough pancakes and bread yesterday. :) Did anyone else find the sourdough pancake batter to be really thick/bubbly at first, then get progressively thinner? We were doing one 'cake at a time in a pan as we don't have a griddle, so maybe it just took too long and yeast started dying? No clue O.o
If you add baking soda to a sourdough mix you're actually using the baking soda to get a quick rise, not really the yeast. Baking soda reacts with the acidic bacteria/yeast in the sourdough, but if you leave it in for too long it might use up all of the baking soda and stop bubbling.
Post by: shadowmoss on September 24, 2013, 02:51:21 PM
Post by: StarswirlTheMustached on September 24, 2013, 03:46:15 PM
Sourdough Pizza Crusts:
Thanks for the recipe. Have you tried the pizza crusts on a baking stone? I'm wondering if you would put olive oil on the stone first or just put the pizza crust directly on the stone?
I've never used a baking stone and don't really know how they work. If the olive oil runs off of it though, I guess you could dust it with flour or cornmeal to prevent sticking.
I've never put oil on a pizza stone for any recipe. Olive oil would smoke like gangbusters at the temp I run my pizzas at, anyway.
Post by: Spork on September 24, 2013, 03:57:03 PM
Thanks! I need to try this. I tried to get into sourdough once before via a friend's starter, but it was a terrible, gooey mess, and his bread recipe was, too To add insult to injury, it never rose!
Sourdough Pizza Crusts:
Thanks for the recipe. Have you tried the pizza crusts on a baking stone? I'm wondering if you would put olive oil on the stone first or just put the pizza crust directly on the stone?
I've never used a baking stone and don't really know how they work. If the olive oil runs off of it though, I guess you could dust it with flour or cornmeal to prevent sticking.
I've never put oil on a pizza stone for any recipe. Olive oil would smoke like gangbusters at the temp I run my pizzas at, anyway.
We don't either. If the stone is hot (and it takes a while for it to get up to temp) it doesn't tend to stick. You can use cornmeal or parchment paper if you want.
Pizza stones make a really nice crust. Try 'em. And they'll last forever (as long as you don't start a big fire in your gas grill and end up spraying a fire extinguisher on them.)
Post by: decibelle on September 25, 2013, 10:59:05 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on September 28, 2013, 08:55:05 AM
Post by: clutchy on October 02, 2013, 12:05:47 PM
You can also get free sourdough starter from 1847 source (http://carlsfriends.net/source.html) if you don't want to go down the path of making your own.
And if you have a good one with it's own intricate/delicious tastes, you can spread it out thin, let it dry a bit, crunch it up and share it with your friends.
Wow that's amazing! What a find.
Sourdough is my favorite bread but the acid buildup from it is almost intolerable. I think I'm still going to try this. :)
Post by: gimp on October 02, 2013, 12:19:18 PM
A large cast iron pan turned upside down works just as well as a pizza stone. :)
And turned right-side-up works too! And lets you make deep dish if you want.
I suspect upside-down makes for better thin crust. What kind of pizza do you make on it?
Post by: decibelle on October 02, 2013, 10:52:58 PM
A large cast iron pan turned upside down works just as well as a pizza stone. :)
And turned right-side-up works too! And lets you make deep dish if you want.
I suspect upside-down makes for better thin crust. What kind of pizza do you make on it?
I like to make Neapolitan style, usually a simple Margherita. I should experiment with deep dish since I've never made it.
Great idea a few post above using coconut oil to cook the sourdough pancakes!
Post by: Mr. Minsc on October 06, 2013, 11:31:41 AM
Post by: Dr.Vibrissae on October 06, 2013, 01:22:16 PM
But I am eager to try the pancakes, and can personally vouch for the yumminess of the homemade English muffins. (In fact I was dismayed one night by watching my friends BF devour 10 in one sitting after I offered them to try. He ate my breakfast for the week!)
Post by: GuitarStv on October 07, 2013, 07:05:41 AM
Our sourdough starter "Lars" was accidentally slain by our roommate, recently. I think we will wait until he moves out to start another one, since he is not very mustachian and has taken over the fridge with condiments and leftovers he doesn't eat because he likes to order out.
But I am eager to try the pancakes, and can personally vouch for the yumminess of the homemade English muffins. (In fact I was dismayed one night by watching my friends BF devour 10 in one sitting after I offered them to try. He ate my breakfast for the week!)
Your starter might not be totally dead . . . I've brought mine back from the brink once already (it had turned colours and started smelling funny . . . well, funnier than usual). Just keep it on the counter keep tossing half and feeding it twice a day for 2-3 days. It's remarkably resilient stuff.
Post by: Dr.Vibrissae on October 07, 2013, 10:44:15 AM
Post by: tomatoprincess on October 11, 2013, 06:37:16 PM
Post by: Beardog on October 14, 2013, 04:12:05 AM
Post by: NumberCruncher on October 14, 2013, 06:34:25 AM
I've made my first loaves and am looking forward to trying the pancakes next. Thank you for posting this wonderful thread. I have a question about making the starter. The ratio of 2 parts flour to one part water makes a very thick paste that I'm finding difficult to mix. In fact, I have ended up adding some extra water. Do you have a good technique for mixing the flour and water at the ratios recommended? Thank you!
I keep mine around pancake batter consistency. I don't actually know the ratio as I don't measure it out, but what I've seen from other places on the web a 1:1 ratio seems common. It really just matters on personal preference. I keep mine in the fridge, which makes it hard to stir if it's much thicker.
Sourdough will put up with all sorts of different behaviors. I'm just finding out myself! I've made another loaf of sourdough that I left to rise while going to work. It turned out great!
Post by: Beardog on October 14, 2013, 06:54:17 AM
Post by: worms on October 14, 2013, 12:22:15 PM
I just throw in some more flour and water every day or so and give it a good stir. It lives in the kitchen normally and when it risks outgrowing its jar, I pour half into a jug, stir in an egg, some sugar and a splash of oil, fold in some bicarb and make hotcakes.
Post by: GuitarStv on October 15, 2013, 07:00:07 AM
I've made my first loaves and am looking forward to trying the pancakes next. Thank you for posting this wonderful thread. I have a question about making the starter. The ratio of 2 parts flour to one part water makes a very thick paste that I'm finding difficult to mix. In fact, I have ended up adding some extra water. Do you have a good technique for mixing the flour and water at the ratios recommended? Thank you!
I like my sourdough mix a bit on the thick side . . . not quite doughy, but thicker than pancake batter. Thinner will work just fine, but it seems to last longer if you forget it on the counter for a couple days when it's thicker consistency. That said, the 2-1 ratio is kinda a rough guide, I usually just eyeball the flour and water these days. As long as it's bubbling and rising I think you're cool.
Post by: Mr. Minsc on October 31, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Don't some quick searching I came across this website. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/ I found it very informative, does a good job of telling the "whys" of sourdough. :)
Post by: NumberCruncher on November 01, 2013, 06:22:19 AM
My second batch of sourdough loaves just came out of the oven a short time ago. I foresee my breadmaker getting increasingly less use in the future. ;)
Don't some quick searching I came across this website. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/ I found it very informative, does a good job of telling the "whys" of sourdough. :)
Yes, seconded!
If I'm not mistaken, the author very much emphasizes the art part of sourdough baking too -- saying the best bread is made by hand because you get to know the dough and know exactly when it's had enough. I still really love my breadmaker for kneading, though. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong when kneading by hand that makes my loaves very dry, but that's a problem for another year when I'm out of school and have free time. :)
Post by: GuitarStv on November 01, 2013, 06:50:51 AM
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/ I found it very informative, does a good job of telling the "whys" of sourdough. :)
That's a great website! I've made their sourdough carrot/pineapple and cream cheese icing cupcakes and they were AWESOME! Definitely recommend them to try . . .
My second batch of sourdough loaves just came out of the oven a short time ago. I foresee my breadmaker getting increasingly less use in the future. ;)I'm sure I'm doing something wrong when kneading by hand that makes my loaves very dry, but that's a problem for another year when I'm out of school and have free time. :)
Don't some quick searching I came across this website. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/ I found it very informative, does a good job of telling the "whys" of sourdough. :)
Dry loaf = too much flour kneaded in.
You want to keep adding flour while kneading the bread just to the point where the bread is no longer ripping off and sticking to your hands. It should still feel a touch moist. I kinda do most of my sourdough baking by feel rather than recipe these days!
Post by: m8547 on November 01, 2013, 07:49:51 AM
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sourdough-waffles-or-pancakes-recipe
Post by: Mr. Minsc on November 03, 2013, 05:02:40 AM
Post by: zinnie on November 03, 2013, 07:30:12 AM
Post by: the fixer on November 04, 2013, 06:44:21 PM
I also came up with an interesting substrate for making granola/energy bars. Take 3.5-4 cups of oats and douse them with water to make sure they are thoroughly wet, then drain as much as possible. Add a big, heaping spoonful of whole wheat flour and another big spoonful of sourdough starter. Mix thoroughly and leave out ~24 hours (I figure with such a small amount of starter it should take longer to ferment, but it's a lot of guesswork).
After this is done you should have a gooey oat blob. Mix in dried fruit, nuts, fat & sweetener (I use heated/mixed coconut oil & honey with some vanilla extract), chocolate chips, or whatever else you want and bake in a casserole dish lined with parchment paper at 375 for about 15 minutes. You know it's done when the surface stops looking shiny and just starts to brown. Next I cut into bars while still hot, but before removing from the baking dish I stick the whole thing in the fridge until cold to get the bars to set.
These granola bars have the advantage of being fermented, plus there's a big bonus that you can control how much sugar you use. Previously I had to put 1 cup of honey into a batch of 16 bars because the sugars were critical to hold everything together, but with this method I've successfully made bars with as little as 1/4 cup (at that point their sweetness gets pretty subtle, I haven't tried going lower). You might be able to use cheaper sweeteners like brown sugar, but I haven't tried yet.
Post by: GuitarStv on November 05, 2013, 06:27:21 AM
I've been experimenting with sourdough and various other ferments for ~2 months now. My favorite "conventional" recipes are sourdough muffins (http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2010/03/10/sourdough-recipes-galore-variations-on-sourdough-muffins/) and sourdough crackers (http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2010/03/08/sourdough-recipes-galore-whole-wheat-crackers/). My attempts at bread have been failures so far... I'm just not very good at kneading dough with lots of whole wheat flour (too sticky!). So I'm just buying sourdough breads at Trader Joe's and focusing my efforts on making stuff I can't buy cheaply in stores.
I also came up with an interesting substrate for making granola/energy bars. Take 3.5-4 cups of oats and douse them with water to make sure they are thoroughly wet, then drain as much as possible. Add a big, heaping spoonful of whole wheat flour and another big spoonful of sourdough starter. Mix thoroughly and leave out ~24 hours (I figure with such a small amount of starter it should take longer to ferment, but it's a lot of guesswork).
After this is done you should have a gooey oat blob. Mix in dried fruit, nuts, fat & sweetener (I use heated/mixed coconut oil & honey with some vanilla extract), chocolate chips, or whatever else you want and bake in a casserole dish lined with parchment paper at 375 for about 15 minutes. You know it's done when the surface stops looking shiny and just starts to brown. Next I cut into bars while still hot, but before removing from the baking dish I stick the whole thing in the fridge until cold to get the bars to set.
These granola bars have the advantage of being fermented, plus there's a big bonus that you can control how much sugar you use. Previously I had to put 1 cup of honey into a batch of 16 bars because the sugars were critical to hold everything together, but with this method I've successfully made bars with as little as 1/4 cup (at that point their sweetness gets pretty subtle, I haven't tried going lower). You might be able to use cheaper sweeteners like brown sugar, but I haven't tried yet.
That's a great sourdough idea . . . I've noticed that the starter I have will dry to a super hard glue kinda consistency on the counter, so I'm sure that it'll hold those bars together pretty well!
Post by: stigto on November 05, 2013, 03:52:21 PM
100 grams of wholemeal rye flour
100 ml water (equal parts by weight)
Mix in a glass jar, cover with muslin or other thin cloth, leave until next day. Throw half away, add another 50 grams of flour and 50 ml water. Leave at room temperature, repeat every day. After 3-4 days you should see bubbling (CO2 from yeast activity). After 10-12 days the mix should have a slightly sour/alcohol smell to it.
Bread:
500 grams fine rye flour
200 grams wholemeal rye flour
250 grams fine wheat flour
550 ml water
20 g salt
2 tablespoons sunflower oil
Day 1 for bread: mix half of the starter into 500 ml lukewarm water in a bowl, mix in 500g fine rye flour (I used a spoon). Cover with cling film, leave for about 18-24 hours. The mix should be active and bubbly.
Day 2: Mix in the rest of the flour with the oil and salt (I used a kitchen machine). If the dough is too firm, add in the rest of the water. This gives about 60% hydration. Flour isn't very strong in my location and can't absorb a lot of water. The dough should be quite wet, if too firm add more water. Cover with cling film and leave to rise to double size.
Scrape out dough onto an oiled surface. Using a dough scraper, stretch and fold into a loaf shape and cover. Leave for 10 minutes and repeat about 3 times. Cover and leave for 1-2 hours.
Heat oven to 260 degrees C with a clay pot inside (Schlemmertopf/Römertopf). No need to moisten pot. Flour a pizza board or similar with fine rye flour, and transfer loaf onto board. Remove pot from oven, remove top and tip loaf inside. Score loaf to allow even rise. Replace top and return to oven. After 10 minutes, remove top (this is to allow crust to form properly). Bake for another 35 minutes at 220 degrees C. Remove from oven and tip bread onto a rack and allow to cool.
Edit: be sure to use unchlorinated water or you risk killing the micro-organisms. Antibacterial cleaner on your work surfaces will accomplish the same thing.
Post by: GuitarStv on November 06, 2013, 06:36:01 AM
Post by: the fixer on November 07, 2013, 12:59:43 PM
In the last few months I've become quite a fermentation experimentalist; my philosophy is to just try it and see what happens, but that also means that unless I actually say I've tried something, I don't know how it will turn out.
Post by: MrsPete on November 08, 2013, 06:37:16 AM
I got my starter in the easiest possible way: I got prepared starter from someone else. No waiting, hoping to catch the wild yeast, which isn't always a sure thing. I've already passed it on to a couple other people -- partially out of the goodness of my heart, but also because IF I should ruin my own starter, I'd be able to ask for a little bit back.
I've tried several recipes, but my best results have been from the New York Times no-knead recipe, which is also super-easy:
Whisk together:
1 cup whole wheat flour
2 - 2 1/2 cups white bread flour
1 1/2 tsp salt
Stir in:
1 1/2 cups water
1/4 cup sourdough starter
Cover and let sit 12-18 hours (on top of the refrigerator is a perfect, slightly warm place).
Turn onto lightly floured countertop, turn over a few times to incorporate a little flour -- the dough will be much wetter and more sticky than traditional bread, and this makes it look more average.
Shape into a round or a loaf and let rise another 2 hours. Setting it on a piece of wax paper or parchment will make things easier later. Do not skimp on time; that's the key to really good bread.
Details matter when baking:
Preheat your oven AND a cast iron Dutch oven (or other heavy casserole dish with lid) to 450.
Slide the bread into the preheated pan. It will sizzle, which means you're starting a lovely brown crust.
Bake 30 minutes with the lid on, then remove the lid and bake another 10-15 minutes.
This bread is head-and-shoulders better than any other sourdough I've baked myself. The inside is thick and chewy -- I want to say dense, but that sounds negative. It's hearty. The crust is a lovely brown. I think it would make great bread bowls for soup, but I haven't tried that yet.
I am playing with lowering the temperature.
I'm also going to buy a clay loaf-shaped pan with a lid. I can bake round loaves in my cast iron dutch oven, but I want to be able to make loaf bread for sandwiches.
And a question:
How do y'all store home-baked bread? I'm just keeping it in a ziplock on the countertop, but that looks messy. A Tupperware container would be a step up, but still is less than idea. My mom always had a bread box, and I'm thinking about buying one. But they aren't air-tight, are they? Bugs would be attracted in, so the bread would still need to be kept in some type of container, right?
Post by: m8547 on November 08, 2013, 06:58:18 AM
"leuconostoc bacteria" eh? Meh. Frankly, as long as my bread rises and is tasty I could care less if it's yeast or bacteria making the bubbles. :P
As far as I can tell, if you get leuconostoc bacteria your starter won't be tasty. I had a starter that didn't start successfully, and it smelled like vomit. It was so bad that when I opened the container, people on the other side of the room immediately complained. I was not able to save it since even after a few more feedings there was still some vomit smell. From what I read, that's what leuconostoc bacteria smells like.
Another way to avoid leuconostoc bacteria is pasteurizing your flour, if you don't want to use pineapple juice. Spread some out on a baking sheet and bake at around 250F for a while. Or just skip it and hope for the best.
Post by: GuitarStv on November 08, 2013, 08:23:23 AM
Quote
How do y'all store home-baked bread? I'm just keeping it in a ziplock on the countertop, but that looks messy. A Tupperware container would be a step up, but still is less than idea. My mom always had a bread box, and I'm thinking about buying one. But they aren't air-tight, are they? Bugs would be attracted in, so the bread would still need to be kept in some type of container, right?
I find that most home made breads are best stored in a breathable way. Breadbox, or paper bag are what I like to use. Most home made breads have about a day or two shelf life, but sourdough seems to be OK for longer than that. You can always store them in the fridge if you want to extend the life of the bread. We don't seem to have any problems with bugs being attracted to the bread. . .
As far as I can tell, if you get leuconostoc bacteria your starter won't be tasty. I had a starter that didn't start successfully, and it smelled like vomit. It was so bad that when I opened the container, people on the other side of the room immediately complained. I was not able to save it since even after a few more feedings there was still some vomit smell. From what I read, that's what leuconostoc bacteria smells like.
Another way to avoid leuconostoc bacteria is pasteurizing your flour, if you don't want to use pineapple juice. Spread some out on a baking sheet and bake at around 250F for a while. Or just skip it and hope for the best.
Gross. I would toss anything that smells strongly bad and start over, to hell with additional feedings. I guess I've been lucky with my sourdough and not had the bacteria problem.
You don't want to pasteurize the flour, typically the yeast that is responsible for making sourdough is all over the flour. It might make it a lot harder to start your culture.
Post by: Mr. Minsc on November 16, 2013, 06:21:42 AM
That makes sense. Commercial yeast would probably be bad for dogs. Anyway, here's an easy recipe for sourdough pancakes. The last time I made it, I topped it with grilled peaches and blueberries. :) http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/SourdoughPancakes.htmMade a slight modification to that recipe this morning. Substituted 2 Tbsp oil with 2 Tbsp milk. Worked out well. :)
2 cups sourdough starter, room temperature*
2 tablespoons granulated sugar
1 egg**
2 tablespoons olive/vegetable oil
2 tablespoons milk (I used whole milk)
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 tablespoon warm water
*Edit: Randomly thought over two weeks later that maybe milk in slow raise bread might not be such a good idea. Didn't seem to harm me though.
Post by: Mr. Minsc on December 07, 2013, 11:11:54 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on December 09, 2013, 10:03:36 AM
Post by: annaraven on December 11, 2013, 11:18:15 PM
I prefer the 5 minute artisan no-knead style of bread. I have used that for a couple of years now - the yeast version. So I am experimenting with doing a sourdough version, now that my starter is active. (I lost the previous starter in an accident similar to Lars, mentioned by a previous poster - my son turned on the oven to preheat for pizza without wondering why the oven light was on).
I do like the crust on the sourdough bread. We'll see how it goes though.
My most successful so far:
200 grams sourdough starter (about 50% water, 50% flour, by weight)
300 grams flour (unbleached organic all purpose)
1 tsp baking soda
2 tsp fine seasalt
250 grams filtered water
I mixed it last night around 10pm, covered it with plastic wrap and a towel, and put it in the oven overnight with the oven light on. Today, around 11?, I put it into my baking dish (a covered crockery "casserole" thing), to rise a second time. Then around 3ish, I took off the plastic wrap, covered it and turned on the oven to 450. I get a bit of oven spring while it heats up, then after 45 minutes, I take off the cover and let it brown. It turned out pretty good. My husband liked the flavor and I like the texture.
Post by: Mr. Minsc on December 24, 2013, 04:49:27 AM
However, I like the idea of DIY and sourdough so I've been trying it again. Especially since I found out recently that, for folks like my husband who don't *like* the sour taste of sourdough, you can add baking soda to neutralize the sourness.
Interesting, I'll have to try that just to try something different. :)
Post by: the fixer on December 24, 2013, 06:39:23 AM
It's odd, I have to admit I can't taste the sourdough tang. Maybe I'm just really used to it or something.
Post by: GuitarStv on December 24, 2013, 06:43:16 AM
Post by: annaraven on December 28, 2013, 11:37:09 AM
Post by: racherinh on December 29, 2013, 05:52:21 PM
We keep our starter the same consistency as bread dough, so it's easy to add to all the bread stuff that we make. It also takes up less space, lasts longer, and tastes different than wetter starters. They can be kept at pretty much any consistency that is convenient for the baker.
We actually add about 1/4 tsp of conventional yeast to each loaf, as it helps with the timing for our household. If we're in a hurry I sometimes add as much as 1 tsp.This is a baker's choice, but if you often find yourself short on time, it's allowed to mix yeast types =).
Don't store bread in the fridge. It will go stale faster than anywhere else. The temperature is perfect for starch crystallization.
We make large loafs - around 2 kilos, because they last a lot longer. We knead the dough in our bread machine, which makes it easier to use super wet doughs, and also for timing reasons (putting dough in so that when we get home from work the dough is done, etc). Super wet doughs make a chewier, holier bread, which we like. Then we shape and bake on a bread stone in a hot oven (heat stone to 500F, lower when it first goes in the oven and steam is added, then turn and lower again after the first 15 min). Bake until it's about 200-205F in the middle.
One of the best tips I learned recently is to do the second rise under a big bowl with hot water in it. It's helped our bread spring properly in the oven.
I also highly recommend Peter Reinhart (eek, I don't think I spelled that right). His formulas are amazing. We are complete converts to his method of using very high percentages of starter. Another great resource is the.freshloaf.com
Starter can also be frozen for up to 3 months, if you go away.
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on April 25, 2014, 06:57:50 PM
Post by: the fixer on April 25, 2014, 08:07:51 PM
Post by: Simple Abundant Living on April 25, 2014, 10:27:22 PM
Sourdough kept out on the counter will stay active, so you have to feed it at least once per day, preferably 2-3 times per day. This will cause you to accumulate a ton of extra dough, which must eventually be either used or discarded. It's a great way to let the sourdough become more vigorous in preparation for making bread, though.
Ok, so if I feed it that much, how often do I need to use/discard it?
Post by: worms on April 26, 2014, 05:31:17 AM
My sourdough starter has proved to be very reliable. Sometimes it's on the counter, sometimes it's in an unheated porch. If I am using it a lot, it gets fed a lot. If I am not using it, it can lie neglected for a week or more. If I am turning it over regularly it is less sour, first bread or pancakes after a long spell, it's more bitter. I've never thrown away starter, but if it has been sitting a while, I do sometimes pour off the alcohol from the surface of the jar to make it less sour.
When making bread, the speed of rise varies with the qualities of the starter and the room temperature, so you need to develop a feel for your starter and vary things accordingly. We're talking art, not science.
Starter is tough, it copes.
Post by: zataks on April 26, 2014, 06:14:23 AM
water
high protein artisan flour (costco!)
a bit of yeast.
refreshed every so often with a bit more of the first two ingredients.
Always pretty sour and makes delicious breads.
I second everyone else's opinions about the pancakes and the GF seems to like them too.
Anyone experimented with adding acids (citric?) to the starter to adjust pH and better control/encourage bacteria growth and enhance the sour-ness?
EDIT: clarification about acid use
Post by: GuitarStv on April 29, 2014, 09:45:27 AM
Post by: tmac on May 01, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Post by: grantmeaname on January 24, 2016, 05:40:51 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on January 25, 2016, 06:42:35 AM
In unrelated news . . . my sourdough starter is pushing four years now! Twice as old as my son . . .
Post by: maco on January 25, 2016, 09:43:08 PM
This is good if your original starter dies, or you go on vacation and can't keep up with it or something.That'd have to be a VERY long vacation to kill a starter. I've neglected my refrigerated starter for more than 6 months at a go. It just takes 2-3 days to wake back up instead of 1, is all.
Post by: frompa on February 06, 2016, 02:44:36 PM
Post by: JessieImproved on October 15, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
First thing: Josey Baker Bread. Awesome book.
Second thing: It took me nearly two months before my sourdough starter was healthy and vigorous, and made a good loaf of bread. Wild starters are highly dependent on the air and temperature they grow in. Don't listen to anyone who tells you exactly how long it will take to get a good starter. You're going to have to be patient and look at it/smell it/test it to be sure. A good rule of thumb is that your starter "pops up" 8-12 hours after you feed it, and it smells good at that point. That's a good time to start testing.
Post by: sparkytheop on October 15, 2018, 05:33:09 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on October 15, 2018, 06:40:02 PM
I kind of like that this thread has been revived... I've started making more bread again recently, and want to do sourdough, but have not because of the need to feed the starter (I tend to go in waves, rather than being consistent). But, this thread has me more tempted.
I've frozen the started in my freezer and then thawed it out six months later with no apparent ill effects after a feeding or two. :P
Post by: expatartist on October 15, 2018, 07:26:28 PM
Post by: sparkytheop on October 15, 2018, 07:55:07 PM
I kind of like that this thread has been revived... I've started making more bread again recently, and want to do sourdough, but have not because of the need to feed the starter (I tend to go in waves, rather than being consistent). But, this thread has me more tempted.
I've frozen the started in my freezer and then thawed it out six months later with no apparent ill effects after a feeding or two. :P
That is good to know! I could manage that :)
Post by: diapasoun on October 15, 2018, 10:29:07 PM
Post by: englishteacheralex on October 16, 2018, 12:15:59 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on October 16, 2018, 07:06:57 AM
Great tips here! Any advice on baking sourdough in very hot and humid climates? Where I live is similar to Florida and I try to avoid using air conditioning.
No. I live in Canada. :P
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 04, 2020, 08:32:24 AM
I just baked my second and third sourdough breads from rye. Here is my experience and my beginner's mistake.
First I made a starter and then divided it into a wheat starter and a rye starter. I could have thrown away what was left, but decided to bake a bread from it.
A few days ago I made my first bread. I let it poof a long time. And then a second time in a metal form in the fridge overnight. I had lined the form with baking paper. Next morning I bake the bread. When it was finished, I lifted the bread out of the form by pulling up the baking paper. Then I saw dark spots on the underside. DH and I couldn't think of any other explanation for the many spots than mold, some fungus. It was in the paper, as well as on and slightly inside the bread. As I didn't want to take chances with my health, I threw away the bread. As it was made from the original starter, I also ditched the two remaining starters and the new batter/dough I had just started.
Then I made a new starter. Tried to work extra hygienically. Fed it with rye. And I watched a video about sourdough for beginners. I followed the instructions in it. Yesterday I started a new bread. Just before I went to bed, it had poofed to a good size. So I reshaped it and put it in my two baking forms, one metal and one glass, both lined with baking paper. Next morning both were baked in the oven. When finished, I lifted them by the paper out of the forms. And again the bread from the metal form had dark spots. But the bread from the glass form didn't. And the breads were made from the same batch. Could it be the metal interacting with the dough?
The internet gave very little useful information, only mentioning aluminium spoons. It said it was okay to use metal forms. But somewhere on a forum, someone mentioned that sour dough can indeed get dark spots from metal. So my conclusion is that the sour in the dough indeed interacted with the metal form through the baking paper. This time I didn't throw away the bread, but cut of the spotty sides. The rest of the bread tastes very good. Next time, I will only use the glass form or use some other kind of poofing shape and bake without a form.
Post by: GreenSheep on January 04, 2020, 10:52:04 AM
I did very successfully make sourdough blueberry pancakes and sourdough pizza crust using the discard, so it's not all a total loss!
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 04, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
Thanks for resurrecting this thread! I found it a couple of weeks ago when I got my first sourdough starter and saved it in case of any new comments. I successfully split my starter into one white starter and one wheat, and I successfully transported it across the country and back due to a family visit for Christmas. I tried baking with it twice while I was there, and it was a complete failure both times. The wheat one didn't rise at all. The white one rose a lot after the initial mixing with half the total flour called for, but after adding the rest of the flour and allowing it to rise again, it remained a solid little mass. I did bake the dough anyway, and the flavor was great, but it was very, very dense and only edible for about 24 hours.
I did very successfully make sourdough blueberry pancakes and sourdough pizza crust using the discard, so it's not all a total loss!
Maybe your dough is too solid to start with? It should be a lot more sticky and wet than normal bread dough. otherwise the yeast will have trouble poofing the dough.
Look at this video and the next one which is a beginners guide. I found it very helpful to actually see how wet the dough had to be.
https://youtu.be/stoPYwdPU-E
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 04, 2020, 11:41:52 AM
Post by: habanero on January 04, 2020, 11:57:37 AM
Day 1 early: I take almost all the starter (about 200g) and add 50/50 water/wheat by weight until I have 500g of dough. Leave this to rise until the evening.
Day 1 late: Take the dough from above and add 300g beer (typically an American Pale ale or similar) and 100g cold water, 125-150g rye flour and 650g wheat flour (1kg flour in total including the amount from step 1). So my dough is some where around 660g liquid and 1kf flour in total. To this I add 22g of salt (use an accurate scale for this). This looks like a large amount of salt, and it is, but it's what is needed.
I run it in the machine for 25 minutes and adjust with water or flour if needed. Cover the bowl with clingfilm and leave overnight.
Day 2 early: If risen sufficiently, pour out and shape a loaf. Every 30 minutes strecht out all sides, fold back towards the middle and leave with the joint down. Repeat 3 times. Last time I put on a baking paper and let rise until about doubled in size. Typically until after work.
Baking: I head the tray in the over at 250 celsius. Cut bread with a sharp knife, pull the baking paper with bread onto the hot tray, back in oven and throw in about 1dl boiling hot water and close. The steam gives a nice crust. Leave for 15 minutes and lower temp to 210 celsius and bake until done. Doneness is judged either by knocking on underside and listen for a "hollow" sound, or more fail-safe: Use a thermometer. If centre of bread > 92 degrees celsius it's done. This goes for all wheat-based baking btw. Takes about 40-45 mins total.
Result:
Post by: GreenSheep on January 04, 2020, 05:06:07 PM
Thanks for resurrecting this thread! I found it a couple of weeks ago when I got my first sourdough starter and saved it in case of any new comments. I successfully split my starter into one white starter and one wheat, and I successfully transported it across the country and back due to a family visit for Christmas. I tried baking with it twice while I was there, and it was a complete failure both times. The wheat one didn't rise at all. The white one rose a lot after the initial mixing with half the total flour called for, but after adding the rest of the flour and allowing it to rise again, it remained a solid little mass. I did bake the dough anyway, and the flavor was great, but it was very, very dense and only edible for about 24 hours.
I did very successfully make sourdough blueberry pancakes and sourdough pizza crust using the discard, so it's not all a total loss!
Maybe your dough is too solid to start with? It should be a lot more sticky and wet than normal bread dough. otherwise the yeast will have trouble poofing the dough.
Look at this video and the next one which is a beginners guide. I found it very helpful to actually see how wet the dough had to be.
https://youtu.be/stoPYwdPU-E
That was really helpful -- thank you! I see what you mean. And now I'm off to watch the same guy's "15 mistakes most beginner sourdough bakers make." :-)
Post by: GuitarStv on January 04, 2020, 05:13:29 PM
When it was finished, I lifted the bread out of the form by pulling up the baking paper. Then I saw dark spots on the underside. DH and I couldn't think of any other explanation for the many spots than mold, some fungus. It was in the paper, as well as on and slightly inside the bread. As I didn't want to take chances with my health, I threw away the bread.
If your starter is healthy (reliably doubling after a feeding), you're not going to get mold. The yeast out-competes the bad bacteria pretty reliably. If you have an unhealthy starter (haven't fed it in a couple weeks/forgot it at the back of the fridge/etc.) you can definately get mold . . . but in my experience it's VERY obvious. You'll have red, green, or grey fuzzy stuff floating on the top and a pretty foul smell.
It does make me suspect the pan too. I regularly use aluminum bread pans (no paper in them, just a layer of grease) and haven't seen the black stuff you're talking about. Might be a difference in the particular alloy of the pan I've got vs the one you've got or something though.
Post by: sixwings on January 05, 2020, 03:14:42 PM
Post by: LightTripper on January 08, 2020, 09:32:32 AM
I actually have no starter at the moment as I fell out of the habit of making bread having managed to keep it up pretty regularly for a couple of years .... but I think I might try making one (I got my last one on a course I did). My OH is out tomorrow night so I will have some nice quiet time in the house, so might kick it off then. There seem to be so many methods online but I assume that flour + water + time won't go too far wrong? Our house is not super-warm at this time of year, but hopefully that just slows the process rather than making it impossible?
Post by: LightTripper on January 08, 2020, 09:37:53 AM
Right, let's do this - will report back on whether my coolish house has nonetheless managed to excite some microbes!
Post by: LightTripper on January 09, 2020, 02:29:42 PM
Post by: LightTripper on January 11, 2020, 08:39:11 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 11, 2020, 11:57:53 AM
Post by: LightTripper on January 11, 2020, 12:06:48 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 11, 2020, 12:53:30 PM
Right, started the starter... Used warm water from the tap whereas I remembered straight after I used to use water from our filter jug as the course I went on suggested it might be good to let the chlorine etc evaporate off.... Still, hopefully it's not too strong and if it doesn't work I'll try again with jug water! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200109/b4f02f2b3b9ba143b7521607b9c0288b.jpg)
Don't give up on this. It's not the water, it's your patience. I pull my water straight from tap (municipal water supply) and have not had an issue with starter.
It will take you 6 to 7 days to develop your starter. Dispose of half (by weight) and add same amount of flour and water. Do this daily. By Day 4 you should start to see bubbles forming. By day 7 you should be good to go. Your starter will get better with age.
Post by: LightTripper on January 11, 2020, 02:50:43 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 11, 2020, 03:33:34 PM
Post by: LightTripper on January 11, 2020, 05:10:20 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on January 11, 2020, 06:07:42 PM
Post by: Ichabod on January 12, 2020, 08:46:40 AM
Should I go ahead and try to bake a loaf? Or do I need to keep waiting.
Post by: habanero on January 12, 2020, 09:06:21 AM
It is probably cursing in the sourdough church, but I made my starter from flower mixed with some homemade beer of type witbier. I shook the cask so that the was some yeast floating around. This beer also contained some lactic acid bacteria. The starter work very well from the beginning.
Well, if it works it works. But I don't quite understand why you seem to think it's necessary to add something containing yeast and/or bacteria to get a starter going. It isn't. Flour and water is all you need and that's how it's been done for centuries.
Post by: GuitarStv on January 12, 2020, 09:06:55 AM
I'm on day 9 of beginning my starter. I'm feeding it twice a day, but it's not quite doubling in size. Maybe 70-80% bigger? The texture, color, smell all seem fine. The only reason I haven't tried to start a loaf yet is that it keeps failing the float test. House is 72 degrees.
Should I go ahead and try to bake a loaf? Or do I need to keep waiting.
If it's growing 80% each day I'd say you're probably good, and would give it a try. Maybe give the bread a little extra long to rise.
Post by: habanero on January 12, 2020, 09:08:47 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 12, 2020, 09:16:53 AM
I've been playing around with score patterns - this was two outer scores with a series of small ones in middle trying to resemble a wheat sheaf ... didn't quite work.
Post by: LightTripper on January 12, 2020, 09:19:45 AM
I somewhat messed up my loaf this morning. I normally do two loaves at a time but decided to only make one this week. I didn't adjust my cook time to compensate resulting in a slightly darker loaf than I normally like. Also had a bit of tear out at bottom of loaf but nothing too serious. However, it is still a good loaf.It's a thing of beauty!! And the course I went on was very pro a dark crust... I think it's a matter of style!
I've been playing around with score patterns - this was two outer scores with a series of small ones in middle trying to resemble a wheat sheaf ... didn't quite work.
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 12, 2020, 09:26:41 AM
Sry - can't figure out how to rotate the pic correctly :)
Post by: LightTripper on January 12, 2020, 09:33:15 AM
Post by: KBecks on January 12, 2020, 10:15:36 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 12, 2020, 10:43:42 AM
Post by: LightTripper on January 12, 2020, 04:05:00 PM
I've gone down a YouTube sourdough rabbit hole.... Hurry up starter, I need to EAT YOU!!
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on January 12, 2020, 04:56:23 PM
Sourdough Pizza Crusts:
Thanks for the recipe. Have you tried the pizza crusts on a baking stone? I'm wondering if you would put olive oil on the stone first or just put the pizza crust directly on the stone?
I've never used a baking stone and don't really know how they work. If the olive oil runs off of it though, I guess you could dust it with flour or cornmeal to prevent sticking.
Recommend using cornmeal as the "unstick" stuff - oil would burn and make a really awful mess and smoke, IMO, putting it directly on the stone. I shape my pizza then transfer to a baking sheet (or a pizza peel, the special "shovel" that you can use) that's liberally coated with cornmeal (semolina flour is truly ideal; I don't fuss enough to try to source it so use cornmeal) before topping it. Shake the baking sheet occasionally to make sure the pizza still moves. Slide it off the baking sheet directly onto the stone and bake away! The cornmeal will wind up burning eventually. I'd worry that oil would burn faster and maybe even burst into flames. But?
Could also do the pizza on the grill. Mmm.
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 12, 2020, 05:34:41 PM
That is beautiful too!! Double tin I guess??
I've gone down a YouTube sourdough rabbit hole.... Hurry up starter, I need to EAT YOU!!
Yes, used a long 2-lb loaf pan
Post by: alienbogey on January 14, 2020, 10:26:09 PM
http://carlsfriends.net
I obtained this starter in 1999 and still have it going strong today. Its name is Herman and seeing this thread is inspiring me to take him out of the fridge, feed him, and bake a couple of loaves tomorrow.
Post by: LightTripper on January 15, 2020, 03:17:34 AM
I'd like to point out that the 1847 starter mentioned in 2013 on this thread is still available:That's an impressively elderly starter!!
http://carlsfriends.net
I obtained this starter in 1999 and still have it going strong today. Its name is Herman and seeing this thread is inspiring me to take him out of the fridge, feed him, and bake a couple of loaves tomorrow.
My baby one is starting to show a few signs of life (smelling a teeny bit startery too...)
Might transfer it to a jar so I can see what's going on a bit better... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200115/f1fd25df5d35b0ecf9765121d0168894.jpg)
Post by: turketron on January 16, 2020, 07:08:41 PM
Post by: STEMorbust on January 16, 2020, 07:20:38 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: GuitarStv on January 16, 2020, 07:29:38 PM
I've been meaning to try sourdough for awhile but we're pretty inconsistent as it is with how often we bake bread (probably only every month or two) and so I didn't like the idea of maintaining a starter every day for infrequent use. But after reading more about it here (and watching a lot of youtube videos) I think keeping it in the fridge should work for us. I think I'll pick up some whole wheat flour (we normally just have AP on hand) this weekend and try out a starter. We keep our house pretty cool in the winter (~60F) so I'm anticipating it'll take longer to get going. I'll report back with my progress!
If you keep a cool house, try getting your starter going in the microwave. First put a mug of water in, and microwave until it's boiling. Then mix up you starter in a bowl and stick it in the microwave next to but not touching the water. The water keeps things warm and humid in the enclosed space.
I've had good luck freezing starter in the freezer for 2-3 months if we're not baking sourdough for a while. Just let it thaw and feed for a couple days, it comes back to life pretty reliably.
Post by: turketron on January 16, 2020, 08:58:25 PM
If you keep a cool house, try getting your starter going in the microwave. First put a mug of water in, and microwave until it's boiling. Then mix up you starter in a bowl and stick it in the microwave next to but not touching the water. The water keeps things warm and humid in the enclosed space.
Yeah, that's a good idea. I've proofed bread dough in the oven before (switched off, with a pan filled with boiling water underneath) but didn't want to do that with this because I could very easily see one of us turning on the oven to preheat without realizing it's in there.
Post by: LightTripper on January 17, 2020, 06:07:31 AM
I was hoping I'd be ready to bake this weekend but the starter isn't really there yet (definitely going in the right direction, more bubbles than there were, but not there yet). The kitchen is the coolest part of our house but there isn't really anywhere else practical to put it - but as long as the bubbles and sour smell keep increasing I think I'll just bear with it and hope that it just takes 2 weeks to get going rather than one!
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 17, 2020, 08:07:05 AM
I hope the starter survived the two week period in the fridge. I made it much thicker than usual.
Post by: habanero on January 17, 2020, 11:56:37 AM
Next week we will go home. Then I'll try to make a new loaf, from wheat this time.
I hope the starter survived the two week period in the fridge. I made it much thicker than usual.
If your starter is dead after 2 weeks in the fridge there is somthing wrong with it. As long as there is no mould you are fine. It might have split (a layer of liquid formed on top of the jar) but that is nothing to worry about, just stir it and it's fine.
A freshly fed starter makes the dough rise quicker, and old one makes the dough more acidic.
Post by: STEMorbust on January 17, 2020, 03:49:41 PM
Beautiful loaf STEM!
I was hoping I'd be ready to bake this weekend but the starter isn't really there yet (definitely going in the right direction, more bubbles than there were, but not there yet). The kitchen is the coolest part of our house but there isn't really anywhere else practical to put it - but as long as the bubbles and sour smell keep increasing I think I'll just bear with it and hope that it just takes 2 weeks to get going rather than one!
Thanks! Consider storing near your hot water heater. That’s what we did last winter. New house now and have it on a wire rack I close proximity to a heating vent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: LightTripper on January 18, 2020, 09:20:47 AM
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on January 19, 2020, 11:46:25 AM
Unfortunately our hot water heater is in the kids' craft cupboard, so that won't work. Maybe I'll give it a holiday in my room, which is warmer!! But my old starter would come to life at room temp, so I suspect this one will get there, even if slowly. It definitely is getting more bubbly with time, but nothing like doubling!!
Could also bring it into the bathroom and take a hot shower, no fan running, and then leave the door closed trapping the heat inside.
Post by: habanero on January 19, 2020, 01:01:52 PM
Post by: LightTripper on January 19, 2020, 03:25:22 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 20, 2020, 06:26:32 AM
Thank you!! I went with the idea of putting it in the microwave next to a mug of hot water and that seems to have helped!! Problem is it's the working week now, so I'll be constrained to looking twice a day, but hopefully it's getting some momentum now!
We have a rack for growing verh young plants. You can put it in a socket and it will produce a little warmth.
Post by: iluvzbeach on January 20, 2020, 09:50:44 AM
Post by: habanero on January 20, 2020, 01:41:30 PM
Thanks! Consider storing near your hot water heater. That’s what we did last winter. New house now and have it on a wire rack I close proximity to a heating vent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nice loaf! I have actually never gotten the big holes inside the bread that is rather common in sourdough bakes. I actually don't want them since I find them impractical, but I would like to know what to do to actually get them. I do the 1st rise in the mixing bowl, then folding and stretching every 30 minutes 3 times, then final proofing and baking.
Post by: LightTripper on January 20, 2020, 03:35:53 PM
Posting to follow. I’ve enjoyed reading what others have going on with their starter and this is something I want to do.Well, I just took my starter up to my bedroom with me (it's warmer up here...) so you may not want to follow eeeeverything :-D
Post by: turketron on January 21, 2020, 04:12:18 PM
Well, I just took my starter up to my bedroom with me (it's warmer up here...) so you may not want to follow eeeeverything :-D
I just was considering putting ours in our upstairs bathroom for the same reason but thought that might be kinda weird, glad to see I'm not alone :D
Post by: Linea_Norway on January 22, 2020, 11:18:00 AM
I use my sourdough (wheat) for only 2 purposes in practice. One is for pizza dough, the other is "the bread" - its the only kind I bake on a regular basis. I do as follows.
Day 1 early: I take almost all the starter (about 200g) and add 50/50 water/wheat by weight until I have 500g of dough. Leave this to rise until the evening.
Day 1 late: Take the dough from above and add 300g beer (typically an American Pale ale or similar) and 100g cold water, 125-150g rye flour and 650g wheat flour (1kg flour in total including the amount from step 1). So my dough is some where around 660g liquid and 1kf flour in total. To this I add 22g of salt (use an accurate scale for this). This looks like a large amount of salt, and it is, but it's what is needed.
I run it in the machine for 25 minutes and adjust with water or flour if needed. Cover the bowl with clingfilm and leave overnight.
Day 2 early: If risen sufficiently, pour out and shape a loaf. Every 30 minutes strecht out all sides, fold back towards the middle and leave with the joint down. Repeat 3 times. Last time I put on a baking paper and let rise until about doubled in size. Typically until after work.
Baking: I head the tray in the over at 250 celsius. Cut bread with a sharp knife, pull the baking paper with bread onto the hot tray, back in oven and throw in about 1dl boiling hot water and close. The steam gives a nice crust. Leave for 15 minutes and lower temp to 210 celsius and bake until done. Doneness is judged either by knocking on underside and listen for a "hollow" sound, or more fail-safe: Use a thermometer. If centre of bread > 92 degrees celsius it's done. This goes for all wheat-based baking btw. Takes about 40-45 mins total.
Result:
Thanks. I am trying this now.
I don't have a big enough kitchen machine, so I used a hand mixer for about 15 minutes.
Status: This is the beginning of day two. After a night on the workbench, it has more than doubled in size, maybe almost tripled. After breakfast, I will start the stretching and folding and making a loaf.
Status: I baked them one at the time, because one of the loafs was too big to share the oven with a second loaf. One in my glass form and one without a form. Both looked very good when I cut them through after they cooled off. As we just had dinner, I didn't taste them, but they will be breakfast and lunch tomorrow. I used a meat thermometer to check the core temp. And after 15 minutes on 250 C and 25 minutes on 210 C both had a core temperature of 93 C.
Post by: LightTripper on January 22, 2020, 02:57:51 PM
Post by: turketron on January 28, 2020, 09:43:34 AM
All in all, I'm ok with how it turned out! It wasn't quite as sour as I was hoping for, so my next goal is to figure out how to get it more fermented next time. Here are some photos!
Post by: MrsP on January 31, 2020, 10:20:09 AM
I've been using the Artisan bread in 5 method for years (keeping a bucket of dough in the fridge) and am looking to start using sourdough as my leavening agent. The website says this is possible. I have some rising at the moment. Has anyone else done this? How did it go?
Post by: StashingAway on January 31, 2020, 10:50:31 AM
The recipe to start sourdough that I mentioned in the first post of this thread is a pretty thick one, and works well in warm temperatures for me . . . I find that this means you can forget it for a while without your starter dying. There are recipes that are much more liquidy that seem to get going more quickly, but might require more care to keep alive.
Do you have any recommendations for adjusting the recipe/process to temperature differences? Our house sits at 58* this time of year... most recipes say to keep it at 70*, but then leave me hanging! I read this as just adding a bit more water during the cold months
Post by: Dogastrophe on January 31, 2020, 11:17:33 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on January 31, 2020, 11:38:30 AM
The recipe to start sourdough that I mentioned in the first post of this thread is a pretty thick one, and works well in warm temperatures for me . . . I find that this means you can forget it for a while without your starter dying. There are recipes that are much more liquidy that seem to get going more quickly, but might require more care to keep alive.
Do you have any recommendations for adjusting the recipe/process to temperature differences? Our house sits at 58* this time of year... most recipes say to keep it at 70*, but then leave me hanging! I read this as just adding a bit more water during the cold months
Get a large mug of water and run it in the microwave until boiling, then push the mug to the back of the microwave and stick your starter in there. It'll warm up a decent amount. Repeat the process with your loafs of bread as they're rising. This has always worked for me in our frigid winter house.
Post by: habanero on February 01, 2020, 12:50:18 PM
Post by: LightTripper on February 01, 2020, 03:48:03 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on February 02, 2020, 03:53:00 AM
I have a bread book at home that discusses kitchen / house temperatures and what to do with bread recipes. If I get a chance this weekend I will find it and report back.
Found book - the temperature piece was about adjusting water temperature in yeasted breads to account for house temperature.
Post by: StashingAway on February 02, 2020, 06:29:52 AM
I have a bread book at home that discusses kitchen / house temperatures and what to do with bread recipes. If I get a chance this weekend I will find it and report back.
Found book - the temperature piece was about adjusting water temperature in yeasted breads to account for house temperature.
Interesting. I'm surprised because that means the starter would only be affected for the few minutes that the water temperature has an effect and then reach room temp equilibrium. But if it just takes some warmer water and a longer ferment time, I guess there's no harm in giving it a go! I'll put it upstairs where it's warmer..
I just got some non-reactive containers to dedicate to this process, so it's off to the races!
Post by: StashingAway on February 05, 2020, 08:58:32 PM
This is the third starter that I've tried in my lifetime, and whaddya know:
(http://)
Post by: Dogastrophe on February 06, 2020, 05:42:12 AM
I have a bread book at home that discusses kitchen / house temperatures and what to do with bread recipes. If I get a chance this weekend I will find it and report back.
Found book - the temperature piece was about adjusting water temperature in yeasted breads to account for house temperature.
Interesting. I'm surprised because that means the starter would only be affected for the few minutes that the water temperature has an effect and then reach room temp equilibrium. But if it just takes some warmer water and a longer ferment time, I guess there's no harm in giving it a go! I'll put it upstairs where it's warmer..
I just got some non-reactive containers to dedicate to this process, so it's off to the races!
I've ignored all the temperature adjustment advice in my book and have not had any issues. When I am making a bread with instant or active dry yeast, I turn my hot tap on and let it run for a minute which gives me a water temp of ~110F. It doesn't concern me if my kitchen is cold or warm as far as ingredient temp goes. If warm, I will lessen my proof times.
For my sourdough, after the bulk fermentation, I do final proof in the fridge - usually 12 - 18 hours depending on when things were ready the day prior.
Post by: Dogastrophe on February 16, 2020, 08:12:59 AM
Yesterday I threw together a basic white bread and made 4 mini-loaves. I left them for 1.5 hours for final proof - I should have checked and stopped at 1 hour as they were starting to over prove.
Post by: LightTripper on February 16, 2020, 08:29:31 AM
I decided to see if my starter would start anything and despite never going bubble crazy it has actually generated two loaves. The first was a bit flat because I basically completely forgot how to make a loaf (sort of skipped making the leaven... Oops!!) but pleasant nonetheless. Went back to my Tartine book for method this time and worked much better, except it stuck to the proving basket so it's not pretty!!
Anyway, here is the second one (haven't opened yet but it's risen better than the first and that was still edible!)
The Tartine book is also much less demanding/rigid on what the starter should be like while you're making stuff and has lots of useful stuff on adjusting times for different temperatures. Needs converting from Fahrenheit for Europeans but good stuff. Much less prescriptive than many books/online recipes and guides!
Post by: LightTripper on February 16, 2020, 08:30:03 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on February 16, 2020, 10:12:06 AM
With picture! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200216/66d1513c8db3469e0c0decf5b814d8da.jpg)
That looks good! I would rather a tasty "ugly" loaf that a beautiful looking one that tastes like glue. Each one you make you will discover more tips and tricks that suit your kitchen set up.
I do my final proof in kitchen towel lined glass bowls. I have finally figured out how much dusting flour to use to keep towels from sticking.
I'm now playing around with different score patterns. The batard I made today was the first that I got the tall raised lip - I think I know what I did to get it. :)
Post by: LightTripper on February 16, 2020, 10:29:55 AM
Post by: LightTripper on February 16, 2020, 03:44:45 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 17, 2020, 03:21:27 AM
Post by: LightTripper on February 17, 2020, 05:04:51 AM
I think I might reduce the hydration a bit, but I've also read suggestions it could be due to not enough bulk fermentation... So maybe my starter is still a bit slow or maybe my bulk fermentation wasn't long enough (though it was overnight! But I have a cold house and put in some of the turns before going to bed and some in the morning, so that may not have worked).
I need to start writing down what I can do and treat these as proper experiments! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200217/8ae0b30d90db224b08657e14e7e8f2b0.jpg)
Post by: Dogastrophe on February 17, 2020, 08:10:23 AM
I've read that it could be caused by the baking stone not being hot enough / starting with a cold stone (if using one), not enough time during bulk fermentation, not enough gluten structure built up during kneading. However, I haven't found anything definitive on what causes it. Personally, I don't like a lot of holes in my bread - it makes of messy eating when the butter/jam/mustard falls out the bottom.
Post by: LightTripper on February 17, 2020, 09:21:47 AM
I made it in a casserole that was fully heated.... But insufficient kneading (or the wrong timing) is quite plausible. I'll try to start at a time when I can go more "by the book" next time and see if that improves things!!
Post by: LightTripper on February 23, 2020, 04:44:38 PM
Post by: LightTripper on February 23, 2020, 04:45:21 PM
Post by: halftimeprof on February 23, 2020, 06:22:44 PM
I am so delighted to find this thread!
Having recently reached FI and moved to halftime employment, I decided to celebrate by making my own sourdough starter and learning to bake sourdough bread (I'm originally from San Francisco and miss the access to outstanding sourdough bread terribly). But after a few weeks of failure, I'm hoping to get some insights on what I might be doing wrong. I got the starter going pretty successfully, using organic whole wheat flour to start and feeding it proportionally for about five or six days to good bubbly, rising effects. But then when I tried to make the loaf, I just couldn't get it to rise. I tried this a couple of times, each time leaving it to rise for longer and longer (on the counter, two risings, the first in a plastic, covered bowl, the second in a banneton proofing basket, covered with plastic one time, linen the next). But I've been getting virtually no rise at all on either a first or second try. So here's my question: Is the problem possibly that I am trying to bake bread in winter in the Great Lakes region and we keep our very old, drafty house quite cool because my husband, son and I all love cool temperatures? The thermostat is set around 62-65F during the day and 59F at night. Is this sabotaging my sourdough risings? Do any of you cook in houses this temperature and get your sourdough loves to rise?
Post by: habanero on February 24, 2020, 12:44:57 AM
Have you tried somewhere a bit warmer, like the bathroom?
Post by: LightTripper on February 24, 2020, 03:19:25 AM
My current book is Tartine which is from a San Francisco bakery, and it does have a section on adjusting times for different temperatures (quite surprising to me what a big difference it makes, so it gave me confidence to just wait, rather than giving up). Unfortunately it's not in a neat summary table but I am going to try to create one based on the information in there ... will share here when I manage to get around to it! I keep thinking maybe I should just get a UK based book so it's based on somebody with similar temperature experience.
Post by: Linea_Norway on February 25, 2020, 09:56:07 PM
Post by: Poundwise on March 04, 2020, 05:00:09 PM
Post by: GreenSheep on March 04, 2020, 06:11:18 PM
Perfect, I just got some sourdough starter from a neighbor and have three jars already. Will try GuitarStv's English muffin recipe tonight!
Oh, this reminds me that I never came back to say THANK YOU GuitarStv -- I tried the English muffin recipe, and it turned out great! My husband also thought the recipe was a keeper, so it's now in the "vault" of tried-and-true favorites.
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 04, 2020, 08:15:25 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 04, 2020, 08:20:15 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on March 04, 2020, 08:24:03 PM
Perfect, I just got some sourdough starter from a neighbor and have three jars already. Will try GuitarStv's English muffin recipe tonight!
Oh, this reminds me that I never came back to say THANK YOU GuitarStv -- I tried the English muffin recipe, and it turned out great! My husband also thought the recipe was a keeper, so it's now in the "vault" of tried-and-true favorites.
They're perfect for those long days/nights while under corona virus quarantine! :P
I just like that you can make 'em gigantic.
Post by: LightTripper on March 05, 2020, 12:29:23 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 05, 2020, 12:31:07 AM
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on March 05, 2020, 04:26:23 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 05, 2020, 04:54:14 AM
@LightTripper that looks like it turned out nicely. Well done!
@GuitarStv I have to go back through the thread to find the English Muffin recipe ... sounds like something I should try
Post by: turketron on March 05, 2020, 06:43:18 AM
I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 05, 2020, 06:58:08 AM
My last couple loaves have failed to rise much - they haven't been completely flat but still rose far less than expected (see photo). My best guess is the starter itself- I've been keeping it in the fridge and feed it every week or two, and it seems to be reasonably active & bubbly over the next day or two. When I've wanted to bake a loaf I've been pulling it from the fridge a day or so early to warm it up and I feed it once or twice before mixing up the dough.
I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?
I have noticed that a starter right from the fridge can be a bit slow. Starters on room temperature are faster. When I did my last breads, I put the starter, water and flower together and used to hand mixer to blend well. Then I covered the bowl with plastic, left it at room temperature and waited until it started raising. Took about 14 hours. Did you wait that long?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 05, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
My last couple loaves have failed to rise much - they haven't been completely flat but still rose far less than expected (see photo). My best guess is the starter itself- I've been keeping it in the fridge and feed it every week or two, and it seems to be reasonably active & bubbly over the next day or two. When I've wanted to bake a loaf I've been pulling it from the fridge a day or so early to warm it up and I feed it once or twice before mixing up the dough.
I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?
If I am going to bake a loaf on weekend I will take my starter out of fridge on Friday morning. When I get home in the evening, I will feed it. By Saturday morning it is ready to go. After I do initial bulk fermentation, I do the final proof in the fridge and pull it Sunday morning to bake.
Post by: LightTripper on March 05, 2020, 07:59:22 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 05, 2020, 08:15:15 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 05, 2020, 08:32:27 AM
Post by: turketron on March 05, 2020, 11:51:33 AM
@turketron How did you do your final proof? Did you put it in a basket / bowl? The shape of your loaf looks like it was unsupported which will cause it to move outward rather than upward.
I don't have a basket, I've been doing the final proof in a mesh colander lined with a towel. That one was pretty "wet" and even after proofing in the fridge just kinda spread as soon as I more or less "poured" it out of the proofing basket. My more recent one was less wet so it kept its shape (forgot to grab a photo) a bit better, but it still didn't rise much.
Another thought: have you tried baking in a casserole dish as a kind of Dutch oven? When I did my course they did one in a domestic oven normally and one in a Dutch oven and the difference in rise was quite impressive....Yep, using an enameled dutch oven, which has worked great in the past for no-knead bread using commercial yeast!
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 05, 2020, 01:13:29 PM
@turketron How did you do your final proof? Did you put it in a basket / bowl? The shape of your loaf looks like it was unsupported which will cause it to move outward rather than upward.
I don't have a basket, I've been doing the final proof in a mesh colander lined with a towel. That one was pretty "wet" and even after proofing in the fridge just kinda spread as soon as I more or less "poured" it out of the proofing basket. My more recent one was less wet so it kept its shape (forgot to grab a photo) a bit better, but it still didn't rise much.Another thought: have you tried baking in a casserole dish as a kind of Dutch oven? When I did my course they did one in a domestic oven normally and one in a Dutch oven and the difference in rise was quite impressive....Yep, using an enameled dutch oven, which has worked great in the past for no-knead bread using commercial yeast!
How much flour and water are you using in your recipe? When you do your kneading, do you check for windowpane effect to see that they gluten structure has built up?
Post by: Buffaloski Boris on March 05, 2020, 04:05:31 PM
I've never used sourdough starter to make bread. Used it for pancakes instead. I'm inspired to get another batch of starter going. One of those loaves are just a thing of beauty!
Post by: turketron on March 10, 2020, 04:23:39 PM
It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 10, 2020, 05:04:56 PM
So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/
It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.
This is same video that got me started with sourdough.
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 11, 2020, 01:11:33 AM
So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/
It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.
This is same video that got me started with sourdough.
Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 11, 2020, 04:38:33 AM
So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/
It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.
This is same video that got me started with sourdough.
Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.
Yes, you need to resist the urge to add flour. When kneading it, try to have "light" hands - push the dough out from itself with either your palm and fold it back onto itself. Try not to mash it into the work surface. A good youtube sourdough series is "bake with jack". He has a couple of videos on kneading sticky dough.
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 11, 2020, 09:01:11 AM
So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/
It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.
This is same video that got me started with sourdough.
Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.
Yes, you need to resist the urge to add flour. When kneading it, try to have "light" hands - push the dough out from itself with either your palm and fold it back onto itself. Try not to mash it into the work surface. A good youtube sourdough series is "bake with jack". He has a couple of videos on kneading sticky dough.
I am currently trying a new dough with the quantities mentioned in the film. Only with a lot of whole grain flower to be more healthy. But it feels a lot more form than my previous doughs where I used 1 kg flower and 800 gram water. So my current dough is more solid for a starter, so I will not add extra. We'll see how it goes.
Post by: turketron on March 16, 2020, 09:38:48 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 18, 2020, 06:10:52 AM
I have Googled the "Tartine" book I've got and realised that the bread is supposed to be very holey, so feeling better about mine. Still not sure all the holes are supposed to be at the top :) But still, it's very tasty, chewy satisfying bread, and my son in particular can't get enough of it, so that makes me happy. :)
Post by: jeromedawg on March 18, 2020, 12:44:18 PM
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.
Post by: GuitarStv on March 18, 2020, 12:54:10 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 18, 2020, 12:58:32 PM
LOL, funny I came across this thread. I just thought about making bread after reading about all the people buying up all the bread in the supermarkets. Anyway, not specifically about sourdough but I have a canister of brewer's yeast that had a best by date of May 2019 I think. Should I toss it? It was opened for making lactation cookies (lol) a few years ago and only stored in a dark/cool pantry after that. I just took it out and tried activating it (1 1/4 tsp of brewers yeast and 1 1/2 tsp of sugar in 1 cup of warm water @ 110~F) but I'm not sure if this is the correct way to proof this yeast - so far there's not really much going on with it. A very very light/faint amount of foam if you can call it that... I'm thinking this yeast is a goner.
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.
When I made my starter, I used flour and instead of water, I used home made white beer that contained both beer yeast and lactate bacteria. It works to poof bread. But, my bread doesn't have those big holes that all the others have. I don't know the reason for this. Even when I added bread yeast to the dough, I still didn't get big holes. My bread is a bit too solid. Maybe I just use too much flour. Or I use too much wholegrain flour.
If your yeast has expired, I would just use it. You can brew beer with bread yeast, as we have done in a crisis of no beer yeast in the house. And you can get bread with beer yeast. Just try it out.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 18, 2020, 01:01:37 PM
LOL, funny I came across this thread. I just thought about making bread after reading about all the people buying up all the bread in the supermarkets. Anyway, not specifically about sourdough but I have a canister of brewer's yeast that had a best by date of May 2019 I think. Should I toss it? It was opened for making lactation cookies (lol) a few years ago and only stored in a dark/cool pantry after that. I just took it out and tried activating it (1 1/4 tsp of brewers yeast and 1 1/2 tsp of sugar in 1 cup of warm water @ 110~F) but I'm not sure if this is the correct way to proof this yeast - so far there's not really much going on with it. A very very light/faint amount of foam if you can call it that... I'm thinking this yeast is a goner.
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.
When I made my starter, I used flour and instead of water, I used home made white beer that contained both beer yeast and lactate bacteria. It works to poof bread. But, my bread doesn't have those big holes that all the others have. I don't know the reason for this. Even when I added bread yeast to the dough, I still didn't get big holes. My bread is a bit too solid. Maybe I just use too much flour. Or I use too much wholegrain flour.
If your yeast has expired, I would just use it. You can brew beer with bread yeast, as we have done in a crisis of no beer yeast in the house. And you can get bread with beer yeast. Just try it out.
I've successfully used yeast that was a couple years beyond it's best before date, but found that I need to use a greater quantity of the stuff. Like two table spoons instead of one.
Am I even proofing it correctly at this point? I was trying to follow a couple recipes and I'm not convinced that it's proofing properly. What's the best way to check/know if the yeast is still good? Do I need to change my measurements?
Currently:
1 cup water at 110F
1 1/4 teaspoons of brewers yeast
1 1/2 teaspoons of plain white sugar
Post by: GuitarStv on March 18, 2020, 01:14:55 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on March 18, 2020, 02:16:23 PM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Post by: LightTripper on March 19, 2020, 03:43:10 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 19, 2020, 03:44:02 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 19, 2020, 03:44:46 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 19, 2020, 04:25:50 AM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 19, 2020, 10:07:25 AM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Wait a sec, so why are there all these recipes calling for "warm water" that is in a temp range of anywhere from 105-120F to activate/proof yeast? I'm super confused now...
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 19, 2020, 10:51:16 AM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Wait a sec, so why are there all these recipes calling for "warm water" that is in a temp range of anywhere from 105-120F to activate/proof yeast? I'm super confused now...
Yeast will begin to die at 120F / 49C. At 140F / 60C and above it will be completely killed
Post by: StashingAway on March 19, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Wait a sec, so why are there all these recipes calling for "warm water" that is in a temp range of anywhere from 105-120F to activate/proof yeast? I'm super confused now...
Brewer's yeast is different from baker's yeast. That should clear up the confusion...
Post by: jeromedawg on March 19, 2020, 11:09:59 AM
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Wait a sec, so why are there all these recipes calling for "warm water" that is in a temp range of anywhere from 105-120F to activate/proof yeast? I'm super confused now...
Brewer's yeast is different from baker's yeast. That should clear up the confusion...
No bubbles no bueno. Look for bubbles.
Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...
Brewers yeast dies when it is cooked. Usually over 30 degrees C is already not good for yeast.
Wait a sec, so why are there all these recipes calling for "warm water" that is in a temp range of anywhere from 105-120F to activate/proof yeast? I'm super confused now...
Yeast will begin to die at 120F / 49C. At 140F / 60C and above it will be completely killed
Which leads to the next question: if those are the temps for regular yeast, then what are the proper temps (or temp range) for activating *brewers* yeast? 30C/86F?
Post by: StashingAway on March 19, 2020, 11:16:05 AM
Which leads to the next question: if those are the temps for regular yeast, then what are the proper temps (or temp range) for activating *brewers* yeast? 30C/86F?
From what I'm reading via search engines (disclaimer; not a brewer), 20-25C is the range that is best for that yeast. From 25-30C it goes wild and above 30C it dies.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 19, 2020, 11:19:01 AM
Which leads to the next question: if those are the temps for regular yeast, then what are the proper temps (or temp range) for activating *brewers* yeast? 30C/86F?
From what I'm reading via search engines (disclaimer; not a brewer), 20-25C is the range that is best for that yeast. From 25-30C it goes wild and above 30C it dies.
Ahh... I see. Okay, I'll give that a try and report back!
Post by: jeromedawg on March 19, 2020, 11:38:21 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZnJ54D5j4j6ulSvSfCXWkf-poY1170PUURFSrMjIAXzCGA12ddFGqMtOinISpj2xSjNa4BagBX3u-qzzj2XCal1M5wkURMNdX8kInVmpjp_phuVRMXscJGK1TTtNVKaF2P6olCRpF9fiGFmLDUET7NKEukcWktk0G48HJ30XIAfOOxdCoz9h-eZeA2TOCUK568q1ULKbf1rVYCicQNNJTpO1_eIAU3nsPdK6dX-kVTVw_zAhLFyCDAbo-ryCKASJXpZxtGWLLQ1-Fw_ydZB-bKqGuqZ5SlXSylvZl1HiLtOvh3epD2O55cGdP8JLKQL8hQx4FoovIAuSN6qQHWy3bhpGH6nXxwKrJzfuBXy2NhyPRgF7iOb3t3VBglB5Za8BNZcCxMQeixja3dCHodVJMCCkWQHIaYU6k5oc2u1_9t-T5cnMwr1U3d0uS17i3m4oozAd8p0bfAS8_FrMSOJsd1pGFotk5Z5KOv_tG5KqaADBAVFzK9jBgbt0UEsNElLt5G77NMS8-8kwq5-Sv6naivCmmZK_1g5tcgZkqufu93ALBWe2mXkbSATOwzmNwpHyszw3s4P2xJ7qgzNp6x08jYSsjMgPm2p_JktR9XpsualnFTZI3ES9iWaFRprBb9Fiuqp1IU2gNs1fYEJR5wVub2MtfYowtBGIE_JFs9Aqdg_Eg_oO1avhEqbMCDEibCTHegwnF0YIQBvucfWxyqZ4p0VDn7BJj7tXRmIiyHOSxjr8iWgmSD5OjG5u=w947-h710-no)
Jar on the left is the Fleischmans (one packet or 2 1/4 tsp): 40C with 1tsp sugar and 1/4 cup water - this is definitely foaming up but no *big* bubbles. It looks like it's doing what it should be for the most part.
Jar on the right is the Brewers yeast (2 1/4 tsp): 25C with 1tsp sugar and 1/4 cup water - seems like it's mostly dead. There's a light layer of foam on top but not much else going on - I can see the layer of yeast and sugar sitting at the bottom of the jar. I'm assuming it shouldn't be looking like that...
Probably safe to recommend that I should I toss the Brewers yeast at this point?
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 19, 2020, 12:34:39 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on March 19, 2020, 01:04:50 PM
When my DH brews beer, he makes a starter to activate the yeast, which is at 27C.
Thanks. I'm assuming it foams up the same/similarly to regular yeast?
Post by: jeromedawg on March 20, 2020, 04:39:26 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on March 20, 2020, 04:47:13 PM
The most frustrating part of all this is finding any flour at all - all my local grocery stores are out of the stuff. I have maybe half a bag of flour left and a single packet of yeast. I guess everyone has decided they'd get into baking thanks to COVID-19
Our stores have started rationing (limits per customer for buying stuff). It's great, but still hasn't brought back TP and flour to the shelves.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 20, 2020, 04:52:37 PM
I have enough flour to make a couple loaves this weekend and maybe some tea biscuits.
Post by: Poundwise on March 20, 2020, 10:57:09 PM
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/potato-bread-recipe
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 22, 2020, 05:41:54 AM
Fresh out of the oven this morning. 4 mini sourdough loaves. I think I had two of them flipped the wrong way up as they has some tear out on the bottom. I've been sharing these with my coworkers. One guy said his wife is working on divorce papers as she want to come live with me. :P
Post by: LightTripper on March 22, 2020, 04:49:14 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on March 25, 2020, 08:36:04 AM
- I took a lot of time to let my starter acclimatize from the fridge, like 24 hours or so. It was all bubbles, but still didn't poof. But as the bubbles were so active, I decided to take the chance. Maybe the starter was just too fluid to poof.
- I mixed the dough for a long time with the hand mixer. Did that the last time as well, but most previous times, I did it shorter.
- I left the dough overnight for the first poof, not in the fridge.
- I did not make a hand made bread shape or do any stretching and folding. I just cut the sticky, poofed dough in half and threw them on a sheet of baking paper, which went directly into the baking form.
- I let the dough in the forms poof at room temperature, covered with plastic. I had some flour at the top to prevent the dough from sticking to the plastic. It poofed to about twice the size.
- Then the same as usual, 15 min at 250 C with boiling water, and another 33 min at 210 C.
I think the fact that I didn't try to strech and fold it, prevented me from putting in lots of extra flour.
Sorry, iPad pictures always end up upside down on this website.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I used 50% siftet wheat this time, much more than I usually do. I think that also makes a difference.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 25, 2020, 08:57:50 AM
I managed to snag the last 10kg bag of flour at grocery store yesterday. Made a couple loaves of sandwich bread yesterday and got some sourdough started.
Fresh out of the oven this morning. 4 mini sourdough loaves. I think I had two of them flipped the wrong way up as they has some tear out on the bottom. I've been sharing these with my coworkers. One guy said his wife is working on divorce papers as she want to come live with me. :P
Here is the crumb from one of my mini loaves
Post by: jeromedawg on March 28, 2020, 11:08:41 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 28, 2020, 02:55:26 PM
I scored Target Pickup for a 5lb bag of KAF unbleached bread flour lol. Was curious if I can make a sourdough starter using that type of flour though? It's extremely difficult if not impossible to find any whole wheat/whole grain wheat flour around here :(
Yup, you sure can.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 28, 2020, 05:29:49 PM
I scored Target Pickup for a 5lb bag of KAF unbleached bread flour lol. Was curious if I can make a sourdough starter using that type of flour though? It's extremely difficult if not impossible to find any whole wheat/whole grain wheat flour around here :(
Yup, you sure can.
Awesome! I'm assuming it's no different in that I can follow OP's starter recipe? Someone on the KAF website mentioned they use non-chlorinated spring water when making the starter, since there's some not-so-good stuff (at least for the starter lol) coming out of their tap that also isn't filtered by their Brita. I guess to be safe it's not a bad idea to do that?
Post by: LightTripper on March 28, 2020, 05:38:41 PM
Finally got a good slash in my latest loaf!! Just needed to go for it much more assertively than I had been...
I'm going to run out of bread flour fairly soon, but OH managed to find a bag of plain, so hopefully that will do. Bread flour (and actually all flour, along with pasta, hand soap, eggs and loo roll) have been the consistently hard to find things here during the crisis. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/24aaa5b72e84a874efd56355c46e82b1.jpg)
Post by: jeromedawg on March 28, 2020, 05:52:46 PM
When I did my sourdough course they said chlorine is volatile, so using water that's been stood in a jug (or e.g. the kettle) for a while should be good enough to avoid any risk it slows things down.
Finally got a good slash in my latest loaf!! Just needed to go for it much more assertively than I had been...
I'm going to run out of bread flour fairly soon, but OH managed to find a bag of plain, so hopefully that will do. Bread flour (and actually all flour, along with pasta, hand soap, eggs and loo roll) have been the consistently hard to find things here during the crisis. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/24aaa5b72e84a874efd56355c46e82b1.jpg)
Nice! That makes sense too - I will probably just try with bottled water starting out.
BTW: my SIL, who also has been into baking bread, said that in order to achieve the darker brown crust, you're supposed to put a pan of water underneath the bread as it's baking... is that right?
Post by: jeromedawg on March 28, 2020, 11:46:41 PM
Post by: LightTripper on March 29, 2020, 01:43:32 AM
Post by: LightTripper on March 29, 2020, 01:48:31 AM
I think the pan of water is to give it a better rise (slows the crust formation, so it stays more flexible in the early stages when the yeasts/bacteria are still producing gasses). I think for a darker crust you just leave it in a bit longer.When I did my sourdough course they said chlorine is volatile, so using water that's been stood in a jug (or e.g. the kettle) for a while should be good enough to avoid any risk it slows things down.
Finally got a good slash in my latest loaf!! Just needed to go for it much more assertively than I had been...
I'm going to run out of bread flour fairly soon, but OH managed to find a bag of plain, so hopefully that will do. Bread flour (and actually all flour, along with pasta, hand soap, eggs and loo roll) have been the consistently hard to find things here during the crisis. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/24aaa5b72e84a874efd56355c46e82b1.jpg)
Nice! That makes sense too - I will probably just try with bottled water starting out.
BTW: my SIL, who also has been into baking bread, said that in order to achieve the darker brown crust, you're supposed to put a pan of water underneath the bread as it's baking... is that right?
Instead of a tray of water, I make mine in a casserole dish (as a Dutch Oven). Keep the lid on for the first 25-30 minutes to trap the steam from the dough, and then remove for the second half of the baking time. This does the same thing (actually better probably as ovens tend to be a bit leaky and it's hard to fill the whole thing with steam without dropping the temperature).
Post by: worms on March 29, 2020, 03:07:59 AM
With respect to production of gasses by the yeasts and bacteria while baking, they are going to have a very short time alive as the temperature rises, so the effect of additional gas production will be minimal. What’s going on is the expansion of existing gas bubbles in the dough as temperature rises. In a wet dough, these expanding bubbles coalesce and rise up through the dough but are held within the loaf by the gluten mesh or by the outside crust. Too wet a dough, or not enough gluten formation and you get a very few very large bubbles at the top.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 29, 2020, 05:48:01 AM
I scored Target Pickup for a 5lb bag of KAF unbleached bread flour lol. Was curious if I can make a sourdough starter using that type of flour though? It's extremely difficult if not impossible to find any whole wheat/whole grain wheat flour around here :(
Yup, you sure can.
Awesome! I'm assuming it's no different in that I can follow OP's starter recipe? Someone on the KAF website mentioned they use non-chlorinated spring water when making the starter, since there's some not-so-good stuff (at least for the starter lol) coming out of their tap that also isn't filtered by their Brita. I guess to be safe it's not a bad idea to do that?
I used the water that came out of my tap to make my starter - no issues.
Yes, just follow the starter recipe and in 7 days +/- you'll be ready to go.
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 29, 2020, 05:50:20 AM
BTW: Just attempted a starter - I started with 1/4 cup of warm bottled/purified drinking water to 1/2 cup of the KAF bread flour but it didn't seem like enough water at all. So I added another 1/4 of warm water and now the mixture is a bit on the runny side but has the consistency of a pancake batter? Is that going to work? Or do I need to add more flour to this?
Go 50/50. For the first couple of days it will looks like there is not enough water but this will start to change
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 29, 2020, 06:18:38 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on March 29, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
BTW: Just attempted a starter - I started with 1/4 cup of warm bottled/purified drinking water to 1/2 cup of the KAF bread flour but it didn't seem like enough water at all. So I added another 1/4 of warm water and now the mixture is a bit on the runny side but has the consistency of a pancake batter? Is that going to work? Or do I need to add more flour to this?
Go 50/50. For the first couple of days it will looks like there is not enough water but this will start to change
Yea, I currently have it resting since yesterday with a 1/2 cup of the flour and 1/2 cup of the water. It still looks kind of runny but hoping that'll change. I see *small* bubbles but nothing significant yet.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 29, 2020, 04:42:29 PM
1) When it says to remove half the starter - do you guys really throw out the other half? Or can that be saved for something else or perhaps given to friends to continue the process? I thought I saw that you can actually use the half you take out to bake some bread though? Is it just not *as good* if you bake bread with the "young"/unfinished starter?
2) When you add more flour and water to the existing mix I'm assuming you continue to mix and incorporate it in well as done with the original starter?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 29, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
Until your starter is ready to go, you will likely have poor results using the discarded portion for bread - the yeast just won't be active enough.
Yes, add the new flour and water and mix it in reasonable well.
Post by: LightTripper on March 29, 2020, 05:34:01 PM
Post by: turketron on March 29, 2020, 05:46:24 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on March 29, 2020, 08:51:25 PM
Sourdough Bread:
1/3 cup starter
1 cup Whole wheat flour
5 cups White bread flour
2 1/2 cups warm water
2 tsp Salt
Mix the water and sourdough starter together in a bowl, then add the whole wheat flour and salt. Keep mixing in the bowl and adding white flour until it starts to form a ball. pour some flour on a board and coat your hands with flour. Move the doughball on to the board and knead the flour in. You want the dough to be just a little bit moist but not super sticky to your fingers. Depending on the consistency of your starter you might not need to use all of the flour.
Once you've got your dough ball made, divide it into two smaller balls. Stick the small balls into small baking tins (I usually grease the tins with some olive oil). Cover the tins with some plastic baggies/saran wrap and leave some place room temperature for 8-10 hours. The balls should roughly double in size (not double in height though, they get wider) over this time.
Take off the plastic baggies, use a sharp knife to score a cut down the middle of each loaf and Stick 'em in the oven at 375 for about 45 minutes. Remove from oven and enjoy delicious bread!
Quick Q: sounds like this makes at least two loaves but how big are the loaves roughly? Or how big of a round would this recipe make?
One other question: I've seen/heard of some using pineapple and orange juice initially (instead of waters) for the starter.... does this drastically or noticeably change the flavor profile of the resulting baked bread/goods?
Post by: Dogastrophe on March 30, 2020, 04:03:35 AM
Sourdough Bread:
1/3 cup starter
1 cup Whole wheat flour
5 cups White bread flour
2 1/2 cups warm water
2 tsp Salt
Mix the water and sourdough starter together in a bowl, then add the whole wheat flour and salt. Keep mixing in the bowl and adding white flour until it starts to form a ball. pour some flour on a board and coat your hands with flour. Move the doughball on to the board and knead the flour in. You want the dough to be just a little bit moist but not super sticky to your fingers. Depending on the consistency of your starter you might not need to use all of the flour.
Once you've got your dough ball made, divide it into two smaller balls. Stick the small balls into small baking tins (I usually grease the tins with some olive oil). Cover the tins with some plastic baggies/saran wrap and leave some place room temperature for 8-10 hours. The balls should roughly double in size (not double in height though, they get wider) over this time.
Take off the plastic baggies, use a sharp knife to score a cut down the middle of each loaf and Stick 'em in the oven at 375 for about 45 minutes. Remove from oven and enjoy delicious bread!
Quick Q: sounds like this makes at least two loaves but how big are the loaves roughly? Or how big of a round would this recipe make?
One other question: I've seen/heard of some using pineapple and orange juice initially (instead of waters) for the starter.... does this drastically or noticeably change the flavor profile of the resulting baked bread/goods?
I do all my measuring by weight but looking at what you have above, I'm guessing it would make two boules approximately 7 to 8" diameter or 4 mini's around the size of the ones I posted above (6 cups of flour is around 720 g ... from memory, I use 800g flour, 360ml water, 320g starter, 18g salt in my recipe)
Post by: LightTripper on March 30, 2020, 05:00:52 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on March 30, 2020, 07:54:22 AM
Sourdough Bread:
1/3 cup starter
1 cup Whole wheat flour
5 cups White bread flour
2 1/2 cups warm water
2 tsp Salt
Mix the water and sourdough starter together in a bowl, then add the whole wheat flour and salt. Keep mixing in the bowl and adding white flour until it starts to form a ball. pour some flour on a board and coat your hands with flour. Move the doughball on to the board and knead the flour in. You want the dough to be just a little bit moist but not super sticky to your fingers. Depending on the consistency of your starter you might not need to use all of the flour.
Once you've got your dough ball made, divide it into two smaller balls. Stick the small balls into small baking tins (I usually grease the tins with some olive oil). Cover the tins with some plastic baggies/saran wrap and leave some place room temperature for 8-10 hours. The balls should roughly double in size (not double in height though, they get wider) over this time.
Take off the plastic baggies, use a sharp knife to score a cut down the middle of each loaf and Stick 'em in the oven at 375 for about 45 minutes. Remove from oven and enjoy delicious bread!
Quick Q: sounds like this makes at least two loaves but how big are the loaves roughly? Or how big of a round would this recipe make?
One other question: I've seen/heard of some using pineapple and orange juice initially (instead of waters) for the starter.... does this drastically or noticeably change the flavor profile of the resulting baked bread/goods?
I do all my measuring by weight but looking at what you have above, I'm guessing it would make two boules approximately 7 to 8" diameter or 4 mini's around the size of the ones I posted above (6 cups of flour is around 720 g ... from memory, I use 800g flour, 360ml water, 320g starter, 18g salt in my recipe)
Yep. It makes two decent sized blobs of bread about 7 or 8 inches across. I've never weighed them.
Haven't heard of adding pineapple or orange juice to a starter. Not sure if that would actually be beneficial either . . . first of all they are strong flavours, but I'd be worried that they may upset the water/flour balance you're looking for and actually slow development of the type of yeast you want growing in there. But I certainly don't know everything! :P
Post by: robartsd on March 30, 2020, 04:13:21 PM
One other question: I've seen/heard of some using pineapple and orange juice initially (instead of waters) for the starter.... does this drastically or noticeably change the flavor profile of the resulting baked bread/goods?I'm pretty sure the main idea is to provide an initially acidic environment for your culture to develop in. This initially helps the yeast and lactobacilli out compete some other varieties bacteria and mold that might otherwise grow in your young starter. Normal care of your young starter is typically sufficient to provide enough advantage to the preferred cultures. Ongoing the lactobacilli produce lactic acid as they eat, maintaining the acid that provides the sour flavor. An active starter that isn't maintained would eventually killed by excessive lactic acid. I don't expect that using citrus juice initially would have much affect on the ongoing flavor.
Post by: jeromedawg on March 31, 2020, 04:45:24 PM
So I'm on day 2 or 3 (not sure actually - I haven't kept track of when I started lol) of my starter and I've fed it about six times at this point (last couple days I've fed it twice a day):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/e9wOaHwdov4SBNx_35MW4VLdegAYcFNHBH0rgTifJ9V5Yz_xSewdzWWIyrwlIdUtKLh4pbZQN7Cg3LTpWd70mUrDpQfgLpsrmt05eYPabshTjpadQ_4Nfne__5OvC-mWxctnow_Ud1LrlhiuXh2-svm0sORE3l1A-ojYj79AIeA0mkUGfZFeFR84pjqOr43fUNl-vQL6e3hHlLcNgLJrLwkuaFvUqXjpOwDkdMnO-yFGxTUh-hua9T1Vf8q3TGhaBz0i-0WPaOec5y53fIlMkzuJbKccjVs3y19fQs1XKLoog7ClgRhqJYlnlcJMCHCDArpbDGu8j_WWxf4CTbVon-FDFsjO5MLEuF1doHL15r7C8elYQS3--38PFoI3WhFam7peeSydT4AdTM2R1JF87bXBrB3tlvifghHJPs7ImPGXXYprSs1jDisElr79UXup4X0MIb4QOlZLj2OsyTUrb7j6rpAgu0QyfrbA6IpZHVbtuHhGMy4llssT4fJCRh84101cBuWGxr6mFYrbBnlkWfrpDRUa0Qlg1wvnNoM3QmeAKYPsUK6Uu9fmNxZTcxgJlE59aGwTYJw0QjadyqsM7RuTABOfL5qmd5d7_9EalumQasU8cJMQRjXJ81xEolyxcrsxbq_n5Gpp-B-xBkC0CqtwTQLgrBDMFpCgqE1eiUFLabx00IZZPzhSp-NdGlhCYwTkzKLqhCpmpLZmLRJjQ5PPy3XlqHdhH16lJIjApdmRozyR7o5F-6yG=w1250-h937-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X9_yiIbsCMnu9DH5OUI5HtAqWQrhAVwkqp5lmYGPXN4GJEsGvFtkaKmNQ3X44i5emx0xgMDTdzExUxX26Pn6UGBlrkE8Hu1Vl9ktb6TOwrFPC8hMQDLsJ0yNkt70AZRlSeQ41c4bK8c3__k6rVBfRvB5oV8gcfE8pZE8hmUdyLLEVeP3OWGIyabRJuxJQsGON0QuL7xIvy79Vj4b5KMC_oT4MLMjPnqb-qr1al6LVKRMk6_th0yJmkcjcwQKKBAv3rvDlO80O9waFNdFHz79wOUK12coFbM1-IN4OU-b1fyVpAK-Y_dpnflrXSMOmVybpsFbB3YD8n2KnQ-33NDauGl17-9hXyjf9PSX9QZYHFs8e15MXJeqhZ3n0tL9v04G66jg0MQyGQWE6Pl8NiRSmUQl0iiLcWYBbd9QiZbbABRa3zrluwYxVYsB_xGiX2uSUtIYKAm-S2QBtEe2mbTzT7q25MBL0mLU3u6JMiSnFZIHwe_NsQ1q95k2a94tIURq1yZTgKYpb-cY2b_2ovcSZmHvbQV2G00uSQKdrICpLju2675CivUAo8w_e3ON504S66fv62Vf8R_tEfKH9WA8MsmhZeMJnt6QsGxQcdPfyZEfipaz_2DdRS8y8ra0uKnY8LboJL6AlZ9JqORfWeZJFc-VRtrQRHSINVLjsIYGkwo6MP14PGNJPZZIAEqHuWa5guUy2gdCpt0wOLXhlvOFHnE2nd3s6xpkNglqi5KyTVgEoOhaabjBV2ny=w1250-h937-no)
Does that look OK? I initially started out with equal parts water and flour, which seemed a bit wet but it seemed to still be working. Since, I've lowered the amount of water being added and have gotten it back to what the ratio is that OP posted (which is a 1:2 ratio of water to flour). I've only been feeding it with bread flour as well. It smells slightly sour - a couple days ago it smelled pretty strongly almost like Greek yogurt! Since changing the ratio the smell isn't *as* strong. This definitely doesn't look vigorous like the starters I see all over Youtube but I attribute that to me not having any idea of how to do this and just starting out as well as only using one type of flour lol.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 01, 2020, 06:32:00 AM
Post by: turketron on April 01, 2020, 06:36:52 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on April 01, 2020, 07:13:41 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 01, 2020, 08:20:27 AM
Looks about right to me. Is your kitchen cooler? Usually I see more bubbles when it's hot (summer) and fewer when it's cooler (spring/fall/winter).
My kitchen isn't super cold but averages between 70-80F depending on if it's night or day. I have it next to a water heater to try to keep the heat up and have even placed it on top of the water heater and noticed it slightly accelerates things.
Not sure what I was thinking yesterday but I did one more feeding in the early evening and didn't add water. The consistency was too thick so I let it sit then decided it would be good to add water so folded in the correct ratio of warm water before going to bed.... I think that may have killed the starter though because I just took a whiff this morning and it smells like dough. Ughhhh. At a minimum, I suppose I have dough for some fried bread, which I actually made a bit of yesterday (and it wasn't bad - had a slight amount of sourdough taste but not full).
I'm guessing I can't revive it at this point and likely will need to start over :(
Post by: GuitarStv on April 01, 2020, 08:22:00 AM
Looks about right to me. Is your kitchen cooler? Usually I see more bubbles when it's hot (summer) and fewer when it's cooler (spring/fall/winter).
My kitchen isn't super cold but averages between 70-80F depending on if it's night or day. I have it next to a water heater to try to keep the heat up and have even placed it on top of the water heater and noticed it slightly accelerates things.
Not sure what I was thinking yesterday but I did one more feeding in the early evening and didn't add water. The consistency was too thick so I let it sit then decided it would be good to add water so folded in the correct ratio of warm water before going to bed.... I think that may have killed the starter though because I just took a whiff this morning and it smells like dough. Ughhhh. At a minimum, I suppose I have dough for some fried bread, which I actually made a bit of yesterday (and it wasn't bad - had a slight amount of sourdough taste but not full).
I'm guessing I can't revive it at this point and likely will need to start over :(
If you overfeed it you won't kill it (after all, that's what you do when you make bread). Just skip a feeding or or two and it should be back to where it was before.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 01, 2020, 09:08:53 AM
Looks about right to me. Is your kitchen cooler? Usually I see more bubbles when it's hot (summer) and fewer when it's cooler (spring/fall/winter).
My kitchen isn't super cold but averages between 70-80F depending on if it's night or day. I have it next to a water heater to try to keep the heat up and have even placed it on top of the water heater and noticed it slightly accelerates things.
Not sure what I was thinking yesterday but I did one more feeding in the early evening and didn't add water. The consistency was too thick so I let it sit then decided it would be good to add water so folded in the correct ratio of warm water before going to bed.... I think that may have killed the starter though because I just took a whiff this morning and it smells like dough. Ughhhh. At a minimum, I suppose I have dough for some fried bread, which I actually made a bit of yesterday (and it wasn't bad - had a slight amount of sourdough taste but not full).
I'm guessing I can't revive it at this point and likely will need to start over :(
If you overfeed it you won't kill it (after all, that's what you do when you make bread). Just skip a feeding or or two and it should be back to where it was before.
Ah ok, good to know. I actually just added a bit more flour and water this AM and mixed it in - the sourdough smell is faintly there. I think I'll pull back on the feedings and just be more patient. It's really hard to be patient waiting and hoping for it to develop though! Especially when I start smelling it and get that sourdough smell lol.
Post by: LightTripper on April 01, 2020, 11:09:32 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 01, 2020, 11:15:51 AM
Post by: therethere on April 01, 2020, 11:17:18 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 01, 2020, 11:58:03 AM
I'd be very surprised if you've killed it. Mine isn't that bubbly and probably not the best starter ever (and my house runs fairly cold this time of year) BUT it passes a float test, and it makes tasty bread, so I'm happy enough with it (even though I would quite like to have one of those really impressive bubbly over ones from YouTube one day!! :D)
It's definitely lost any of the 'vigor' it might have had. I guess I'll just leave it alone and let it sit without feeding for a day or so and continue to observe. The other thing I've been doing is setting it on top of the water heater (with a towel between) every now and then for a few hours. I can't keep it up there too long because the temp gets kinda high (some points it measured over 90F so I took it down immediately). But it's a good way to keep it warm throughout the day if it doesn't seem like it's warm enough.
Post by: turketron on April 01, 2020, 12:14:55 PM
It's definitely lost any of the 'vigor' it might have had. I guess I'll just leave it alone and let it sit without feeding for a day or so and continue to observe. The other thing I've been doing is setting it on top of the water heater (with a towel between) every now and then for a few hours. I can't keep it up there too long because the temp gets kinda high (some points it measured over 90F so I took it down immediately). But it's a good way to keep it warm throughout the day if it doesn't seem like it's warm enough.
If your house runs cold (which isn't really a problem, it just takes longer), I've found that putting the dough next to a mug of boiling water in the microwave makes a hot (75-80F) environment with a decent moisture level without running the risk of being too hot. I've also read that you can use the yogurt function on an Instant Pot to proof dough at basically the perfect temp.
Post by: birdie55 on April 01, 2020, 12:29:53 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 01, 2020, 08:04:25 PM
You can also keep your sourdough starter i note oven with just the light on. It produces just a little warmth. You just need to be sure you don't preheat the oven and kill your starter.
I just tried this and my starter is bubbling (not a ton but definitely showing signs of activity). The starter definitely doesn't smell as sour as it did a day or two ago (when it smelled like Greek Yogurt). Now it smells more "bready" and "floury" with a hint of sour - I was under the impression that it would smell more sour though. I wonder if this has to do with the type of flour I initially used and have been using to feed it (strictly KAF bread flour). I hope to pick some wheat flour up soon to try making another starter to compare.
Post by: worms on April 01, 2020, 11:33:25 PM
When I first started to make bread, being too frugal to keep buying dried yeast, I was simply keeping about 20% of my risen yeasted dough back to use in the next loaf. After a few weeks it had morphed from a yeast dough to sourdough. The lactobacilli outcompete any bought-in yeast cultures, especially when the pH drops and it becomes more acidic.
I reckon that unless you are purist, by far the easiest way into sourdough bread-making is to make a yeasted loaf, keep some of the dough back, then just feed it as you would a sourdough culture. After a very short time, it will be indistinguishable from any other local sourdough culture.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 02, 2020, 05:05:18 AM
I reckon that unless you are purist, by far the easiest way into sourdough bread-making is to make a yeasted loaf, keep some of the dough back, then just feed it as you would a sourdough culture. After a very short time, it will be indistinguishable from any other local sourdough culture.
To follow on this, if you want to create starters for whole wheat, rye, etc the easiest way is to take some of your existing starter and start feeding it with your flour of choice. No need to start each from scratch.
Post by: LightTripper on April 02, 2020, 07:27:21 AM
Post by: turketron on April 02, 2020, 07:41:24 AM
. I let my starter just tick over for long periods, sitting on the counter, with a week or two between feeds and this keeps it quite acidic and great for pancakes. I then ramp it up with daily feeds for a few days when I want to use it for bread.
oooo, this is good to know. I want to get mine a bit more sour and tangy but wasn't sure if going that long between feedings would be bad for the starter. Gonna give this a try!
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 02, 2020, 07:43:21 AM
We've struggled to get bread flour here, so my latest attempt (just under way) is going to be 200g strong white, 100g strong brown and 200g plain white (basically just proportional to what I've got left). Will be interested to see how it works out. I keep reading plain flour is fine for bread, but not sure if it matters more for sourdough?
Unfortunately there is no global standard for flour. In Canada, All Purpose has approx 13% protein ... same as Bread Flour from same brand. In US, AP may be anywhere from 8-12%. UK Strong flour, I believe, is equivalent to bread flour (US) and AP (Canada). The bread flour I can buy in grocery store has same protein as AP; however there is a high protein bread flour available to commercial bakers.
About mid-way down this page is a comparison of different types: https://www.cooksinfo.com/flour
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2020, 07:52:43 AM
We've struggled to get bread flour here, so my latest attempt (just under way) is going to be 200g strong white, 100g strong brown and 200g plain white (basically just proportional to what I've got left). Will be interested to see how it works out. I keep reading plain flour is fine for bread, but not sure if it matters more for sourdough?
Unfortunately there is no global standard for flour. In Canada, All Purpose has approx 13% protein ... same as Bread Flour from same brand. In US, AP may be anywhere from 8-12%. UK Strong flour, I believe, is equivalent to bread flour (US) and AP (Canada). The bread flour I can buy in grocery store has same protein as AP; however there is a high protein bread flour available to commercial bakers.
About mid-way down this page is a comparison of different types: https://www.cooksinfo.com/flour
Huh. I had no idea that was the case . . . I've always used regular flour for bread . . . but apparently our all purpose flour is bread flour.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 02, 2020, 08:11:14 AM
We've struggled to get bread flour here, so my latest attempt (just under way) is going to be 200g strong white, 100g strong brown and 200g plain white (basically just proportional to what I've got left). Will be interested to see how it works out. I keep reading plain flour is fine for bread, but not sure if it matters more for sourdough?
Unfortunately there is no global standard for flour. In Canada, All Purpose has approx 13% protein ... same as Bread Flour from same brand. In US, AP may be anywhere from 8-12%. UK Strong flour, I believe, is equivalent to bread flour (US) and AP (Canada). The bread flour I can buy in grocery store has same protein as AP; however there is a high protein bread flour available to commercial bakers.
About mid-way down this page is a comparison of different types: https://www.cooksinfo.com/flour
Huh. I had no idea that was the case . . . I've always used regular flour for bread . . . but apparently our all purpose flour is bread flour.
Yup, and our grocery store "bread flour" is pretty much all purpose but with a higher price tag. Only difference between Robinhood AP and Bread (both white) is:
30g // 1/4 cup
Calories 110 for AP; 100 Bread
Fat: 0.4g vs 0.3g
Carbs: 22g vs 21g
That's it. Everything else is identical.
Post by: LightTripper on April 02, 2020, 09:41:54 AM
So my bread flour is 13% protein (12.9 for the white, 12.7 for the brown).
My plain flour is 10% (9.9% to be precise).
So quite a bit lower, but the weighted average for my mix is going to be 12.2% (as I used 125g strong white and brown for the levain, including the contribution from the starter) - so seems like I should be fine, and can even up the plain a bit if I need to!
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 10:03:13 AM
At this point I'm just wondering if I should continue keeping it out or in the oven and feeding it. Not sure when it'll be 'ready' to start using and storing in the fridge.
Post by: turketron on April 02, 2020, 10:12:27 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2020, 10:14:19 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 10:32:00 AM
How often are you feeding it now? If it's been fed recently, it'll smell more doughy/flour-y, the sour smell grows stronger as it eats through the new flour you gave it. In my experience the visible hooch only forms after a day or two of letting it sit since the last feeding.
Ah makes sense. I read that if you don't feed enough, the alcohol starts building up - I hadn't fed it for at least a full day because I thought I was overfeeding it initially. I guess I'll check in another hour or two to see if it smells 'sour' again. I'm assuming that if it starts smelling of alcohol it's probably not a good idea to use it and to feed it to make sure it smells "right" before using it for baking?
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 10:32:45 AM
Smell is an unreliable indicator. You want it to be bubbling/rising. As long as it's rising well it will spit out decent bread . . . at least in my experience.
Oh interesting... so you've used starter that smells alcoholic (or that you perhaps just removed the hooch from) and it turns out fine?
Curious too but does using wheat flour and whole grain wheat flour (compared to bread flour) almost always result in a more vigorous starter? That seems to be the case based on what I've heard, read and observed overall.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2020, 11:26:49 AM
Smell is an unreliable indicator. You want it to be bubbling/rising. As long as it's rising well it will spit out decent bread . . . at least in my experience.
Oh interesting... so you've used starter that smells alcoholic (or that you perhaps just removed the hooch from) and it turns out fine?
Curious too but does using wheat flour and whole grain wheat flour (compared to bread flour) almost always result in a more vigorous starter? That seems to be the case based on what I've heard, read and observed overall.
I've always used whole wheat flour to start it going. Then I switch to white flour mostly because it tastes better. :P No idea if it's got an impact on smell . . . generally I just try to get bread that rises reliably and don't care too much about little details like that. There's often liquid on the top of the starter, but I've never had ill effects after stirring it back in.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Smell is an unreliable indicator. You want it to be bubbling/rising. As long as it's rising well it will spit out decent bread . . . at least in my experience.
Oh interesting... so you've used starter that smells alcoholic (or that you perhaps just removed the hooch from) and it turns out fine?
Curious too but does using wheat flour and whole grain wheat flour (compared to bread flour) almost always result in a more vigorous starter? That seems to be the case based on what I've heard, read and observed overall.
I've always used whole wheat flour to start it going. Then I switch to white flour mostly because it tastes better. :P No idea if it's got an impact on smell . . . generally I just try to get bread that rises reliably and don't care too much about little details like that. There's often liquid on the top of the starter, but I've never had ill effects after stirring it back in.
Interesting! So you stir the hooch back in? I guess it doesn't matter as you continue feeding it, since at that point it just sounds like it's more about 'balancing' things out as far as the starter being fed the right amount of flour.
BTW: Just put a pickup order in for KAF White Wheat Flour - looks like they replenished stock at a couple stores but it's running out pretty quickly too. Figured I'd just get it while I have the chance.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 02, 2020, 12:32:37 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 12:41:24 PM
I typically pour off the hooch if I have more than 1/4" on the surface. Anything less than that and I stir it back in. I feed Frank (I was going to rename it Foamy Wan Kenobi but DW said I cannot just rename my child ... ) just before putting back in fridge for the week. I find that it cuts down on the hooch production
Is there a general rule of thumb on when you should put your starter in the fridge the first time? Or is it pretty much an "at your discretion" kind of thing based on usage and assuming you keep feeding your starter, etc?
BTW: is it strange to add wheat flour into the feedings *after* the initial feeding(s)? And does it drastically change the flavor profile? Just wondering if it's worth mixing in different types of flours at this point, being about 4-5 days in.
Post by: Hadilly on April 02, 2020, 01:32:41 PM
Also, the NYTimes has a very comprehensive bread baking guide up now: https://cooking.nytimes.com/guides/59-how-to-make-sourdough-bread
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 02, 2020, 01:41:07 PM
I typically pour off the hooch if I have more than 1/4" on the surface. Anything less than that and I stir it back in. I feed Frank (I was going to rename it Foamy Wan Kenobi but DW said I cannot just rename my child ... ) just before putting back in fridge for the week. I find that it cuts down on the hooch production
Is there a general rule of thumb on when you should put your starter in the fridge the first time? Or is it pretty much an "at your discretion" kind of thing based on usage and assuming you keep feeding your starter, etc?
BTW: is it strange to add wheat flour into the feedings *after* the initial feeding(s)? And does it drastically change the flavor profile? Just wondering if it's worth mixing in different types of flours at this point, being about 4-5 days in.
I put mine in fridge after the first week or so (after making my first loaves). It slows the process so you can get away with feeding once a week or longer. If I plan to bake on weekend I take it out on Friday, feed it, use it on Saturday, feed it, put it back in fridge.
I've never mixed different flours so cannot comment. I would get your current starter up and going then take a portion of it and experiment with adding different flours.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 01:56:04 PM
I am in the process of building my starter using the KAF method. My house is pretty cool. I am feeding it twice a day. Luckily I just bought 20 lbs of flour at costco. My brother shared his tip for discards, save them, add chopped green onions and sesame seeds and fry it up as pancakes. Pair with a bit of soy or ponzu sauce. Really delicious.
Also, the NYTimes has a very comprehensive bread baking guide up now: https://cooking.nytimes.com/guides/59-how-to-make-sourdough-bread
LOL, is this your brother? https://youtu.be/BJEHsvW2J6M?t=136
I saw the same thing and it reminds me of the Chinese green scallion pancakes. I actually fried up some of the dough from my starter and it's quite fulfilling. I can definitely taste the hints of sourdough but it doesn't have that full sourdough taste either. I wonder if the starter, when fried up like that, is *supposed* to taste like how your 'final product' of bread would taste.
Post by: worms on April 02, 2020, 03:04:48 PM
OK, so this actually prompted me to Google the answer (I hadn't realised protein was what made it strong!)
So my bread flour is 13% protein (12.9 for the white, 12.7 for the brown).
My plain flour is 10% (9.9% to be precise).
So quite a bit lower, but the weighted average for my mix is going to be 12.2% (as I used 125g strong white and brown for the levain, including the contribution from the starter) - so seems like I should be fine, and can even up the plain a bit if I need to!
In UK you need to make sure you read the flour packet carefully every time. Traditionally we imported high protein wheat from Canada for bread flour and used lower protein British wheat for other uses. However the last fifty years has seen a revolution in wheat production and we are currently about 80% self-sufficient in wheat. There is a trade-off between crop yield and protein content and the economics of wheat production in UK mean that there is a much greater need for high yields (UK yields are more than twice those found in North America). While some farmers chase both high yields and high protein contents, it is a risky strategy and inevitably we still produce much more wheat at the lower protein bands.
I used to use Tesco’s own brand strong flour, which had a high protein content and was very cheap - I found it to be a better bread flour than the Allison’s on the shelf next to it that was nearly twice the price. About 18 months ago, Tesco changed the formula and the equivalent flour is now proudly proclaimed as being made with British wheat - the downside is that the protein content has dropped a lot and it is now no longer such a good flour. (I still use it, but had to drop the hydration to partly compensate for the softer dough). Of course the changed formula was accompanied but the introduction of a new “extra strong” flour, which appears to be their old one repackaged at a much higher price!
Post by: LightTripper on April 02, 2020, 03:32:41 PM
I have seen flour sold as extra strong Canadian, and now I know why!!
Post by: jeromedawg on April 02, 2020, 08:27:49 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on April 02, 2020, 08:30:35 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 03, 2020, 12:29:45 AM
If it's inflating it's good to go.
It's blowing up super fast. I had to split it into two mason jars and stuck one in the fridge. Strong alcohol smell at this point. I actually took some starter and am proofing a couple of balls of dough using your recipe. Come tomorrow morning I hope to finish them in the oven. Planning to experiment and bake one in my Le Creuset Doufeu
Post by: LightTripper on April 03, 2020, 04:50:17 AM
Anyway, I've done my best, slung it in a basket and will bake it anyway. I can already tell it's not going to be great but it will be bread and it's all a learning experience! I might cut back the % of plain flour in the next one and see if that helps... possibly one of the fancy deli-type shops around here will have some (expensive) bread flour still, so might venture into one of those next week.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 03, 2020, 10:18:16 AM
Definitely not the best look but really hard not to slice into now. I read that you generally want to wait about 6-8 hours before slicing?
I put a pan of water in and baked for about 40 minutes, then removed the pan and let it bake another 10 minutes or so. The crust isn't great looking at all but it smells delicious in the house haha.
The other loaf is currently *stuck* in the stainless steel mixing bowl I proofed it in and decided to just bake it in because it was set in there. Not sure how I'm gonna remove it - I'm currently letting it sit, inverted on a cutting board with a towel underneath to catch the bread if it eventually loosens up and falls down... at least, that's my hope.
I think next time I'll be using a cloth or parchment paper for easy removal. My intention was to transfer the loaves into my dutch oven and doufeu but that didn't go as planned.
EDIT - inverting the bowl with a towel underneath did the trick as I was thinking it might. Although the bottom of the loaf was slightly soft/sogging from the moisture but I'm just letting it sit upside down
to dry out (I just turned it upright for aesthetics for the picture):
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5Y-qTmczcAI/XodkBy7hy-I/AAAAAAADwmw/D81mshwUS0cO66bzNFgjablOXno4ynqAACK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-04-03.png)
Post by: jeromedawg on April 03, 2020, 10:55:02 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RzX_YqwvsbY/XodqMsv3erI/AAAAAAADwnM/Jk3DpZ6roO41ooG2PvbUlj5fc0-_OXHvQCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-04-03.png)
SOOOOO GOOOD!!!!
Crumb could be better but the flavor is outstanding.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 03, 2020, 11:37:48 AM
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 03, 2020, 12:02:57 PM
Okay, I just couldn't help myself:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RzX_YqwvsbY/XodqMsv3erI/AAAAAAADwnM/Jk3DpZ6roO41ooG2PvbUlj5fc0-_OXHvQCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-04-03.png)
SOOOOO GOOOD!!!!
Crumb could be better but the flavor is outstanding.
To use an East Coast Canada phrase, they look right good.
I agree with GuitarStv, if your butter doesn't melt you waited to long to cut them. At my normal room temperature, I let large loaves cool for up to an hour if I can resist - internal temp is still sufficient to melt butter.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 03, 2020, 12:05:57 PM
6-8 hrs?
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Haha, well the good news is that I did slice into one and the butter melted. The family loves it too :D Unfortunately, the other loaf will have to remain unsliced and possibly put into the freezer since we may be overwhelmed with the size of this first loaf (it's going quick but we are getting really FULL hahaha!)
Post by: erutio on April 03, 2020, 12:41:07 PM
6-8 hrs?
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Haha, well the good news is that I did slice into one and the butter melted. The family loves it too :D Unfortunately, the other loaf will have to remain unsliced and possibly put into the freezer since we may be overwhelmed with the size of this first loaf (it's going quick but we are getting really FULL hahaha!)
Sounds like a success to me!
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 03, 2020, 02:26:23 PM
6-8 hrs?
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Haha, well the good news is that I did slice into one and the butter melted. The family loves it too :D Unfortunately, the other loaf will have to remain unsliced and possibly put into the freezer since we may be overwhelmed with the size of this first loaf (it's going quick but we are getting really FULL hahaha!)
The big loaf size is one of the reasons I make 4 smaller loaves.
Sourdough comes back from the freezer very well. If you want to get the crust crispy again, let it thaw then put it in the oven at ~200F for 20 to 25 mins. Tastes almost as good as fresh
Post by: jeromedawg on April 03, 2020, 03:22:52 PM
6-8 hrs?
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Haha, well the good news is that I did slice into one and the butter melted. The family loves it too :D Unfortunately, the other loaf will have to remain unsliced and possibly put into the freezer since we may be overwhelmed with the size of this first loaf (it's going quick but we are getting really FULL hahaha!)
The big loaf size is one of the reasons I make 4 smaller loaves.
Sourdough comes back from the freezer very well. If you want to get the crust crispy again, let it thaw then put it in the oven at ~200F for 20 to 25 mins. Tastes almost as good as fresh
Good idea. Next run I'm gonna divide it into 4. Or I may use half of what the original recipe calls for. These loaves are pretty substantial as is.
Post by: LightTripper on April 03, 2020, 05:04:39 PM
Mine was definitely a bit wrong (you can see the structure is not really there..) BUT still bread, still tasty. Next time I'll try a bit less plain and more attention!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200403/6944fa1515b10b73f881666de866f4f2.jpg)
Post by: GuitarStv on April 03, 2020, 05:18:45 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 03, 2020, 06:02:50 PM
6-8 hrs?
If it's not warm enough to melt butter on after slicing I'd argue you've waited too long. :P
Haha, well the good news is that I did slice into one and the butter melted. The family loves it too :D Unfortunately, the other loaf will have to remain unsliced and possibly put into the freezer since we may be overwhelmed with the size of this first loaf (it's going quick but we are getting really FULL hahaha!)
The big loaf size is one of the reasons I make 4 smaller loaves.
Sourdough comes back from the freezer very well. If you want to get the crust crispy again, let it thaw then put it in the oven at ~200F for 20 to 25 mins. Tastes almost as good as fresh
Good idea. Next run I'm gonna divide it into 4. Or I may use half of what the original recipe calls for. These loaves are pretty substantial as is.
I do knock the time back about 5 mins when I do the smaller ones.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 09, 2020, 01:16:55 PM
EDIT: I couldn't help myself so dumped it out and it slightly deflated. I flattened it a slight bit and then lightly folded it back to try to tighten up. Flipped it back over and rotated it several times (there's a swirl-like patten on the bottom now) and it seemed to hold its shape much better. I placed it back into the mixing bowl w/ cheesecloth and back into the fridge. Hopefully it'll hold its shape. I'm planning to let it sit in the fridge until tomorrow morning before I bake. It's a smaller round (about the size of one of those bread bowls) so hoping it turns out nicely - mostly just experimenting and trying different things now.
https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/
Post by: jeromedawg on April 10, 2020, 10:20:30 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6uJTmYHcydlrMz47YwcnCTpZ41QCWPuDuglx2vXD61gTPbNth5QZSZaMSV4-qZT6XaTxL_0ch9fdEt_z9aa3Dw8nNAbPFou1eRR-gBmsfeBNC2lN8qlwdJFfpkLurHHasuT-hKQi3LazfWRVE2-e8QfHvKpx3EoVJ21bOokLgoOO57J2p1aaJ13hX2F-eUI1cvRxS9C3JN9lTJgFC5bzFYffHtmlzgQ2x8U7cLiErzybi5o-yiblwys6QG72NHXVrXkXK6NLG_bUNJ8TVPCLMoMqIZiq24pQM9wR5tFbY6rC2zcylIdfgLS-9uY3ATFcZB8R3WaR7dsQGj6ewobYwx_iz17gza3Y-RraZTtmyxJksq_kNN8SZvNq80rEEwyAeUrRexcqLJ_pR_wGbn4WDqg5j0RxLwrJ8e-bfPdMgq-zBkDVbfKazRdTfqaA_OWVR6Z6x5TJxDmDOhlhFQ2HeaecUGNn0QGRuzhzYNErPVNqx7d2Nqw3P2oz6wRCIiggvb_m5sgi6zLJCubw75oj4PY9qPubHH-TQ31gAgGdqtd3__qoDD3daFUgacWh3bZ_7U1fKWuvyaoAijrvDgrQOO1VYgYgT99HYxQY-uQu3dchEqE9haHG4kKpozD5gD_1OEaiyF2uv-IKQTaeGC1UsKNdZLdtxXOEEegryAy4du_YRJJuul520iKtI4JxJAE=w1250-h938-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8p1OuIVPUDGL7lpD6YcckeN9ZVtS2IWShBEBVC1uq8s9CG8X4CS1D5EqcgTQ7_ewL6NgVV-RApafDXWYXKVhuSo6B4GsHiBr2WcPztFnuiY0kGr0v-FymdDoYwRCPyjaHuTosASV4TUBaj_GTdQOOlqzT_SJXE7c8gY2eP3G0EskBJ3vnok1iKQvH9XzLw0pvLkAyA5vluqSZjOe7BB5ADyTFsvaBu13AJ_TdItUXys2AfaWCB0pnvHSo01_gu2vdXJoY6bU9dBgVy4hJ-Ms9TCXqSl3TrIMfefWIlAbqSa7dmqBvCUCN7iDc5GET02N5Ptk4MPwklse83KZE6ydzk-7uLn7lKJoZFXQjZ26IOLDUlG6uUgNDZcGf9VIgmjhBqvTg8kcBWG33hDUilkKxVRJXvJw1Kmdgu1-VizLPyMW7GV61e78j4v_Egtym6jq4mACFJTDquz-X8Go83s7FJ6ei1XECocZqC9zfP2uOYFmSCi5C88KDfBGnDZL0QzAmHhcxoTm8eU_yokPImGi8XFIQR-E6C8SfUri4sOtCdjEU9oZBt-BIDhdVnPgXRVkkHv0UMKmnIWX5zDj0TdSr0iQogmxBmVaId8glSnjrjMLuTvcAh6O2jCcA91KGafN608llFNop9w-tmG5qGrbDsSQm_XVBU9eElUYTCQQh0CdkRtM676INgnF733WuPw=w1250-h938-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jX1byW9tP7OAyk1-WgzeR3WBfVxWJag665Fdial1l88ObSEZvOIomBiHLvrYh_VfBQopE_EIWDVnlSeW11ctGN7xxAeB-ySnPN2rMQH0TWt_RmXQVbaQi283bN_AOScGOvQTMsq2nUWhpSy_Ior801iuZR7pvtN4H5kPNW5DHSbJHcWow5_oXaDjRucRlGDw5Avn4prX1XvC_s20Wk6oxYsv_cdl6I_iLyNlGFWlLeZBbf6zNM4g6yC8uMmlOkbc8abKJrt8kXUWNx19Dh41v2hr_B9jKEc_CisSVx995HkXEz60tKtQDjdFTyzPX5lqdTO6kTrvdfdV-Zo4L1NO-meIjOr8PXEBzCORALPhSBLqCOEkJdYeDp9T1u59Ko1QRgiyqNbodWJuO8CTc2jJyTwR3r7ofKgm52nh9Y-4M-vbBfxnXxxQqJcYAND33adT_lbPzU5k1LMKmcLjovyeKYwr-GU96Z_ApM5J_kjfABTLHmonAgFy1A_GlsiZvN1Uj-LxNwEYMpY4hMcEcjBAKFcgDBO1tACqQDkQm108prcW-DWBmLvCMG6c0IDv_YLhZ95ZHNI2v7iDrEclSn7bXmL2DvOK5Ve60Zdv7t-ze-36eJ2GPuXn8D_msQsuDy5gfSJB9ihfxCwKsGbmdDuDvY6u1yhnJ0UdSo97cz6oGmXYCl5BoSr3o8_UuEMDBvQ=w1250-h938-no)
Post by: bbates728 on April 10, 2020, 04:33:50 PM
Post by: chaskavitch on April 10, 2020, 07:35:25 PM
Post by: LightTripper on April 11, 2020, 07:15:43 AM
Not that I don't also have sourdough going, but this seems possible right now...Ahhh, well I'm going to be contributing soon!! My amazing sister is biking me 5kg tomorrow!! V excited. Might even try some hot cross buns...
Post by: jeromedawg on April 11, 2020, 02:15:05 PM
Not that I don't also have sourdough going, but this seems possible right now...
This is why we have a flour shortage. Not sure what the obsession is with sourdough. All I can say is that this thread started it. LOL!
Post by: geekette on April 11, 2020, 04:42:05 PM
The recipe I used calls for disposing of half the starter, and adding a cup of flour and 3/4 cup of water. Seems like a lot! And I'm not sure how I'm supposed to dispose of half the starter and only have a half cup left?
Whatever, now I'm going down the rabbit hole of all the things that can go wrong and all the things I'm supposed to have that I don't have (I've borrowed a cast iron pot, though).
Post by: turketron on April 11, 2020, 05:53:04 PM
I started a starter a couple days ago myself - totally surprised it's bubbling away on the top of the fridge right now. No where near ready to use, but it smells good!
The recipe I used calls for disposing of half the starter, and adding a cup of flour and of water. Seems like a lot! And I'm not sure how I'm supposed to dispose of half the starter and only have a half cup left?
Whatever, now I'm going down the rabbit hole of all the things that can go wrong and all the things I'm supposed to have that I don't have (I've borrowed a cast iron pot, though).
Most of what I've read (and what I've been doing myself with mostly successes) is to go by weight- I've been discarding all but 50g of starter, then adding 50g flour and 50g water.
Post by: chaskavitch on April 11, 2020, 05:54:22 PM
Not that I don't also have sourdough going, but this seems possible right now...
This is why we have a flour shortage. Not sure what the obsession is with sourdough. All I can say is that this thread started it. LOL!
I swear, I made my starter at the beginning of the year, like a month before everyone got all crazy! It's not my fault!
Also, I'm still running on the 50 lb bag I bought at Costco in Dec, luckily. I'd never be able to buy flour now.
Post by: turketron on April 11, 2020, 05:58:24 PM
Also, I'm still running on the 50 lb bag I bought at Costco in Dec, luckily. I'd never be able to buy flour now.
How do you store a 50lb bag? I've been buying just 5lb bags, but have been thinking of getting a larger amount next time I need some, but I'm not sure what would be the best way to store such a large amount. I definitely don't have room in my kitchen but I suppose my basement would work, it's certainly cool and dry down there, just not sure what to store it in.
Post by: chaskavitch on April 11, 2020, 08:13:43 PM
Also, I'm still running on the 50 lb bag I bought at Costco in Dec, luckily. I'd never be able to buy flour now.
How do you store a 50lb bag? I've been buying just 5lb bags, but have been thinking of getting a larger amount next time I need some, but I'm not sure what would be the best way to store such a large amount. I definitely don't have room in my kitchen but I suppose my basement would work, it's certainly cool and dry down there, just not sure what to store it in.
I think it was 50 lbs, it may have only been 25, but it was the biggest one they had. We got a big 5 gallon food-grade bucket from Lowes or Home Depot, then got a spinning lid for it. You only have to bang the lid on once, and then the center spins on and off like a regular (enormous) jar lid. The bag of flour fits almost perfectly! We have one of rice, too, and a spare for once I find oats in bulk.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 12, 2020, 04:28:46 AM
Also, I'm still running on the 50 lb bag I bought at Costco in Dec, luckily. I'd never be able to buy flour now.
How do you store a 50lb bag? I've been buying just 5lb bags, but have been thinking of getting a larger amount next time I need some, but I'm not sure what would be the best way to store such a large amount. I definitely don't have room in my kitchen but I suppose my basement would work, it's certainly cool and dry down there, just not sure what to store it in.
We sometimes buy 25 kilogram bags of barley for brewing. We store that in waterproof canoe tanks.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 12, 2020, 04:37:02 AM
My breads are never like that, because I use so much wholegrain. But now I am trying a bread with 80% white flower, but with some extra wheat fibers added. I hope it will turn out like the pizza dough.
By the way, yesterday I made a traditional Dutch Easter bread, which is a sweet bread, so I used normal fresh yeast. I figured sourdough might not taste so well because of the sourness. But maybe all the sourdough baking has improved some of my bread baking skills. DH thought the bread was of selling quality. I have at least learned to be very patient when poofing the dough. I never used to be that patient.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 12, 2020, 02:04:41 PM
Anyone here mill their own flour or blend it even? The one thing I'm curious about is getting it to be more fine for use as all-purpose/bread flour - I'm guessing that right out of the blender, it probably results in a pretty dense bread. But I'd imagine the starter you can make out of it would be pretty great still.
EDIT: ughh, even wheat berries are pretty expensive :(
Post by: geekette on April 12, 2020, 03:31:01 PM
Post by: birdie55 on April 12, 2020, 04:03:03 PM
Anyone here mill their own flour or blend it even? The one thing I'm curious about is getting it to be more fine for use as all-purpose/bread flour - I'm guessing that right out of the blender, it probably results in a pretty dense bread. But I'd imagine the starter you can make out of it would be pretty great still.
I grind various grain in my Vitamix, but my it came with a wet and a dry pitcher. The blade is different in them. I grind rice, rye berries, oats and wheat berries. I don't do large volumes at any time, but it works fine.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 12, 2020, 04:21:51 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 12, 2020, 07:48:32 PM
Decided to skip sourdough this week and tried bagels. Taste was good but they ballooned up like softballs. Have a couple of things to try for next time.
Whoa, nice! Did they balloon up like that during the boiling process?
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 13, 2020, 12:32:22 AM
What I may have to resort to is grinding my own flour up - I have a Blendtec and didn't even think of it until today for some reason. There are a couple vids out there of people demonstrating using a Blendtec and Vitamix to ground and mill wheat berries and it looks like it turns out very nicely actually (the Vitamix has the edge but the Blendtec seems like it works just fine).
Anyone here mill their own flour or blend it even? The one thing I'm curious about is getting it to be more fine for use as all-purpose/bread flour - I'm guessing that right out of the blender, it probably results in a pretty dense bread. But I'd imagine the starter you can make out of it would be pretty great still.
EDIT: ughh, even wheat berries are pretty expensive :(
We have a barley mill called The Valley Mill. It can be connected to an electric drill. I guess we could use it for wheat as well. So long I haven't done that. I do blend my own flour, for each bread.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 13, 2020, 12:38:09 AM
Post by: LightTripper on April 13, 2020, 05:00:46 AM
This is my last sourdough bread, this time with about 80% white flour, but with extra fibers added. The structure is my best result so far.That does look great, I think!!
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 13, 2020, 05:52:23 AM
Decided to skip sourdough this week and tried bagels. Taste was good but they ballooned up like softballs. Have a couple of things to try for next time.
Whoa, nice! Did they balloon up like that during the boiling process?
The expanded a bit during boiling but this was mainly from the oven.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 13, 2020, 09:44:57 AM
Post by: Poundwise on April 13, 2020, 09:48:40 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 13, 2020, 10:35:50 AM
I have been using only bleached flour (because unbleached not available) and the results have been fine.
Thanks! Are you mixing it with wheat and other flours? I'm guessing mixing it probably helps a ton, which is probably what I'll be doing anyway.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 13, 2020, 10:43:06 AM
Post by: erutio on April 13, 2020, 01:00:50 PM
I did have AP flour on hand already though. Can a starter be made from AP?
Post by: geekette on April 13, 2020, 01:32:31 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 13, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
Still haven't had a chance to get a starter going since I have not been able to find any whole wheat flour (no flour anywhere in fact) in my 4 trips to the grocery store in the past month.
I did have AP flour on hand already though. Can a starter be made from AP?
My starter was made with AP (Canadian - ~13% protein).
Post by: jeromedawg on April 14, 2020, 12:14:17 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IAs9Is88KvCWc6jc1WYjQf7XuNiUCRB-Yvke_LsrYbg1v63MTJ2nn-5Smapte5Uq-OANjuCoQ7bsEQdRfh09SqTC7GXw5KwEe9YfcQR6lQlUxmRILARdzNuq44F2z5UFDo28IeWyuETSRtliG9i4yI3aU3-ntvoIIizii62OS_exDcV0AmKg5M_AO7gQsBc8pSMte0WyKK96dGSFMeP9dg5bkKyJlkGCxymCAv0EdRxC_vRQXXndGKINZnaoWm4Q8kZuKSYoXtGQmBQ4okHTtujumxgdKiCIfPtpmr6D-JHYe5ixzvt81UwqQmF0xRvNtd8aC04zO4J0wBke3e3NFkF4xC5gVf-QtFg1Y5lGEoJR7Kba0jV1EnrH3TejZInGGNY6U6lZ34rTDMoY109j6vw3OIbzZkTKv6E72Q-zzC--_jugArEGHVjJgDOLSF8iFdFyCcKklKMgEh4_BYX2xs4XAzDN8O8REuesZFEtw7Az3mItL9kjZvJCAO907JbSxrNT3UEL2DiTXdZbBeixUKmU8IwfvaG5w_nwHm3unOqznsJ82fHe0pluyAllpezP38n4wax96xRBqhDJl26o9Kds99aP3FcI4EKCDeaCD8jtgk_NzjIOK3nxPajvrH3pC0tr-z0eG6B4HZn0aIy6nKynKQQDktiLLwF4-EiTsfVX9zINo0ETITecj9Z4gC0=w1250-h938-no)
Post by: jeromedawg on April 14, 2020, 10:01:17 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EydV-2K6b5EEQ94qFWzldaM27Ypn4djrULuC7n0r6mTiT5Aw_mT6S8WH-dS9SuIBri53-QDhaMwhXMsoyw-99O0P-0UTDRAjuXtolS_537rjQAedDJUet88EAnLi4Nj9anuyhWsWGDHkhFM27ZGMDXo1joLlFMckkuJyhmTcvFK6k-8YCWn0QhFyKNpVFQ9QJ_R6JODG0Ia3bN1uODOfXPUxMwPF6UHO9DNiO30XjFtFXeAmOdhP0eJ8TFt-TKAn3ZQ-8FeVNi0qazidpLYzLPMOvsQXLvp2ieRKYk6a32zzZz_0h7AwCOd-K-IUZpJDE-qssx59KcGMsXNaOokibbcezvNgViNc78ooolxuWVX1ZDcJXzY3ee_Yke-t4mXxKAmbYbuOrFL1gySK4hu1Lu-8dmCqjhFCpVbbSln5ZpqWNGhM1YGDLsv-wpyO9dYDkcu3B7FWI_wrOSXRvZbcZucBdzOAEPmGsOSw_m1HGOuOg9ufaWo2j3XFdNAUM5ph_z2jURla2RWEnPKAr7jVWfmQL9SzgOgEE5ESATBs4eB2J3a4InhW2h5AWwMD0cLWIIuNKelibL4dJ-rV6IsK778DFnNLYB86ubmY7caDlWw5CAIUg_K-lAPqJB6ITZqHiWzq-b9f0SPasx_GvM_dq8PhHF-mUiPww5JBck8uPsMnTyOzN597ULACnuaO6fU=w1250-h938-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eiakrDUqn_xnoxJ9zhy-Xlz0Y3zvuxXLFNnbiCeYujn6Y-QF9SPAOiGRDGs6pHawc_vaiez0KDD_NdmVR3NbfKS_j6rCyx6Mdys8tTNduP3Gy7Tt_L9RPRU8bziWIFPgpt1_YZgKkn3x66YvntXoOLara6hyDT0RYE3LI4KZ_75ZwVcBxM1qYZGJzf5NXDYUlZqYprtA9WOX-Zhl0F5uMsr5Grb2MD9rhNXuN1ojy8zOu5LetJ6fTB266klYRY_tNby58vZbVPSdAaOPMvf-rKFeKF7xByrJ_W5hu3sg0xjAslBMduUJQG_GaJqhZSmKOyNPXlhyCau2ySBC4Dg7DC4r5TJaEPStDz3cMh55uNvaik9ZoyOO7BvryXQK8PPIKqvYi_fX68KsOud5DRrNf4I4T5Ugs6HhqyKBZYm7Zuwud5HFjNLiKd2KQ22mRx5QCFbX7sKVCAavZJ3DJ-LsmmR1N08UQLkKm4mniHlzl585SClWE2jKV20ilLcqUcDWul73ZaGB4ynNo2YXJpZOvq_WPITCLLKGsXzd2_u7JBkzsISJvUlDQNa14W9raYTGOwmJV6OBIcVdgQ4ofuofOyEpI2myfu9JKDjXztTcXrLmTYN1ZMH6w8hN_BEKtFEI482DR2EguqgCozaVSqg7YUpoKkYYkimI0veyJkEo_RyRU-gPZSLAI630EI-DUnE=w1250-h938-no)
So next time I'll probably raise the temp a bit more - the first time I had it blazing hot (475F for 30min then dropped to 450F w/o cover) and it was a bit too much crumb. I also let the dutch oven preheat longer last time. So the next loaf I do I'll probably do like 460-465F and let it preheat longer, then drop to 425-430F w/o cover for the remainder. The inside is very good but a bit more on the soft chewy side, which I actually don't mind much. Could also be due to the flour I'm using (used a mixture of stone-ground whole wheat, KAF Bread flour and standard all purpose bleached flour).
Post by: LightTripper on April 14, 2020, 10:29:48 AM
Did my first loaf since my sister managed to find me some bread flour (woo hoo!!)
Seemed to go quite well (probably as I am running out of wholemeal so this is 80pc white). But haven't looked inside yet! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200414/7bf34962a05ca7d17c6c461bf67dafa0.jpg)
Post by: geekette on April 14, 2020, 05:04:09 PM
Another day or two and I may end up pitching it. There are shops around here selling bread, I just wanted to make my own.
I did use yeast to make a nice loaf of white bread yesterday, but I really love sourdough...
Post by: jeninco on April 14, 2020, 07:58:20 PM
I'm getting frustrated by my starter. It keeps bubbling, and turning from thick (when I add flour) to thinner (after 12 hours), but there's virtually no rise. 6 days and a couple pounds of flour in. It smells yeasty, but that's it.
Another day or two and I may end up pitching it. There are shops around here selling bread, I just wanted to make my own.
I did use yeast to make a nice loaf of white bread yesterday, but I really love sourdough...
(looks around furtively...)
I have a ... I guess it's a "levain" in the sense that it once was a hunk of dough from a regular loaf of bread. I've been using it as leavening and re-feeding it twice a week or so, and it tastes lovely and sour, but it isn't really enough to get half whole-grain loaves to rise. I just finished a batch of bread where I added 1/2 tsp - 1 tsp of yeast (for two loaves of bread) at the stage where I pulled out the starter to put away and when I mixed in more flour, water, and salt. The resulting loaves tasted wonderful, and were a bit puffier then I'd been getting using the starter alone. I think it's a pretty successful strategy, and one I'm going to continue using.
Now, if I'd just looked up the (*& altitude adjustment for interior loaf temperature... (it's 5 - 10 degrees F if you're at 5000 ft and up. NB.) My next loaf will be a bit less dark, because I won't be waiting for it to get past 201 degrees F on the inside!
Post by: LightTripper on April 15, 2020, 12:12:30 AM
I'm getting frustrated by my starter. It keeps bubbling, and turning from thick (when I add flour) to thinner (after 12 hours), but there's virtually no rise. 6 days and a couple pounds of flour in. It smells yeasty, but that's it.I would try doing a float test when it's bubbly, and if it passes I'd just use it. In fact, even of it fails the float test, if it's bubbly I'd still just give it a try. Mine doesn't visibly rise that much but still makes a nice looking and tasting loaf.
Another day or two and I may end up pitching it. There are shops around here selling bread, I just wanted to make my own.
I did use yeast to make a nice loaf of white bread yesterday, but I really love sourdough...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/1405d7ce118fb99aefd3a48bca136292.jpg)
Post by: GuitarStv on April 15, 2020, 05:38:02 AM
Post by: JLee on April 15, 2020, 12:44:48 PM
Post by: turketron on April 16, 2020, 07:39:21 AM
Last night I made these sourdough crackers (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-crackers-recipe) using the discard with some herbes de provence and they're like the best, tangiest version of Wheat Thins I've ever had.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 16, 2020, 08:20:40 AM
I've been experimenting with how to get my starter more sour/tangy, so I've been leaving it out at room temperature and feeding it every 2-3 days rather than daily. From what I can tell just by smell the starter seems more sour, but I haven't actually made any bread with it since trying this so I won't know for another few days. However, each time I feed it I've been keeping the discard in a jar in the fridge, which has been acquiring a layer of real dark liquid (it's almost a dark gray color, and way more liquid than the tiny layer I sometimes get on the starter itself, but the internet tells me it's fine) on top that I've been stirring back in. And let me tell you, that shit has some tang.
Last night I made these sourdough crackers (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-crackers-recipe) using the discard with some herbes de provence and they're like the best, tangiest version of Wheat Thins I've ever had.
The liquid is hooch, which is a naturally occurring alcohol produced when the yeast runs out of food.
Post by: turketron on April 16, 2020, 08:27:11 AM
The liquid is hooch, which is a naturally occurring alcohol produced when the yeast runs out of food.
Yep, I was just surprised how much darker it was on the discard vs. the liquid that's accumulated occasionally on the starter itself.
Post by: geekette on April 16, 2020, 09:14:48 AM
I've been experimenting with how to get my starter more sour/tangy, so I've been leaving it out at room temperature and feeding it every 2-3 days rather than daily. From what I can tell just by smell the starter seems more sour, but I haven't actually made any bread with it since trying this so I won't know for another few days.Maybe I've been feeding mine too much then. Tonight I'll split it and test that theory (although this morning it had a slightly sour yeasty smell, so maybe it's just taking for-ev-er in my house. I have some discard in the fridge that just has lots of tiny bubbles on the top.
Post by: GuitarStv on April 16, 2020, 09:39:15 AM
I've been experimenting with how to get my starter more sour/tangy, so I've been leaving it out at room temperature and feeding it every 2-3 days rather than daily. From what I can tell just by smell the starter seems more sour, but I haven't actually made any bread with it since trying this so I won't know for another few days.Maybe I've been feeding mine too much then. Tonight I'll split it and test that theory (although this morning it had a slightly sour yeasty smell, so maybe it's just taking for-ev-er in my house. I have some discard in the fridge that just has lots of tiny bubbles on the top.
Sourdough starter is a mix of yeast and bacteria. As long as the yeast is out-competing the bacteria, your bread will rise and your starter won't spoil. Regular feedings will keep the yeast portion very healthy and vigorous. The tangyness you get is the flavour of the bacteria that's growing (usually Lactobacillae - not sure if I spelled that one right). You have to be careful if you're trying to make your starter more tangy by reducing feedings . . . because my experience is that two problems can happen:
- sometimes you go for too long and the starter will go off and pick up a really gross flavour and even get weird colours of moldy stuff growing on top - which means it's time to start over
- sometimes it gets very tangy flavoured, but won't rise well any more because the yeast is not as healthy as the bacteria
Post by: turketron on April 16, 2020, 10:00:35 AM
- sometimes it gets very tangy flavoured, but won't rise well any more because the yeast is not as healthy as the bacteria
Yeah, that's my biggest concern since I haven't used it to bake actual bread with since starting this experiment. I think I'll give it an extra round of more regular feeding ahead of baking my next loaf to ensure it's good and active, although doing so might negate the efforts to make it tangier. We'll see!
Post by: LightTripper on April 16, 2020, 10:45:09 AM
Post by: turketron on April 16, 2020, 02:20:46 PM
I think things like proving the dough more slowly at lower temperature (in the fridge) are also supposed to make the bread more sour/tangy, and probably safer than trying to rebalance your starter?
Yeah, I've done overnight an proof in the fridge but it wasn't too tangy, so maybe I'll try multiple nights in the fridge and see if that makes a difference as well, as that seems like the "safer" option.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 16, 2020, 05:49:17 PM
Currently I have a Blendtec 525 which I would mill the berries into flour with, and though probably not ideal, seems like it would work until I "invest" in a dedicated mill or better equipment. I ended up purchasing a banneton set (includes two bannetons, bread whisk, scraper, razor, linens) off Aliexpress so excited about that.
Post by: erutio on April 16, 2020, 08:56:26 PM
Do you guys think it's insane to purchase 25lb bags of hard red winter berries and and hard white berries? I've been entertaining the idea of planting a wheat garden (lol) for wheatgrass and obviously more wheat (just for fun/experimentation more than trying to harvest it). But now that I've jumped into this, I've nearly become obsessed with wheat, flour and bread (especially sourdough). This is quickly turning into a dangerous hobby during quarantine. Part of the rationale behind buying such bulk quantities of this stuff though is that it can last a realllly long time to indefinitely as long as it's stored properly. I honestly and seriously envision myself baking bread on a weekly basis and no longer purchasing store-bought bread at this point though.I say go for it. Seems like a beneficial and not-expensive hobby, as well as soul (and stomach) filling.
Currently I have a Blendtec 525 which I would mill the berries into flour with, and though probably not ideal, seems like it would work until I "invest" in a dedicated mill or better equipment. I ended up purchasing a banneton set (includes two bannetons, bread whisk, scraper, razor, linens) off Aliexpress so excited about that.
Post by: geekette on April 17, 2020, 08:39:42 AM
When do you do this float test?
Post by: LightTripper on April 17, 2020, 09:07:52 AM
Post by: robartsd on April 17, 2020, 11:52:51 AM
The brand name for the spinning lid is Gamma Lid. The lids cost $7-8 each.Also, I'm still running on the 50 lb bag I bought at Costco in Dec, luckily. I'd never be able to buy flour now.
How do you store a 50lb bag? I've been buying just 5lb bags, but have been thinking of getting a larger amount next time I need some, but I'm not sure what would be the best way to store such a large amount. I definitely don't have room in my kitchen but I suppose my basement would work, it's certainly cool and dry down there, just not sure what to store it in.
I think it was 50 lbs, it may have only been 25, but it was the biggest one they had. We got a big 5 gallon food-grade bucket from Lowes or Home Depot, then got a spinning lid for it. You only have to bang the lid on once, and then the center spins on and off like a regular (enormous) jar lid. The bag of flour fits almost perfectly! We have one of rice, too, and a spare for once I find oats in bulk.
In my experience, a 5 gallon bucket holds about half of a 50 lb bag of flour. Last time we bought a bag that size, we filled a 5 gallon bucket, plus a few 1-2 gallon containers, then still had a bit of flour to use out of the bag. Some people seal their flour in plastic bags and place them in a chest freezer to keep it fresher - this is especially beneficial for whole grain flours. I prefer storing grain and using freshly ground flour made in my Vitamix. Currently I'm using wheat that was canned in 1973 that I got from some friends who were moving out of state. Properly sealed wheat can store nearly indefinitely.
Post by: LightTripper on April 17, 2020, 03:10:30 PM
I didn’t do a second feeding of my week plus aged starter, and it finally rose!Actually, I just read more on this and it seems it's a bit simplistic. So I would say, if it seems bubbly, give it a go!
When do you do this float test?
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/48981/float-test
Post by: geekette on April 17, 2020, 04:19:51 PM
I see all sorts of recipes. I need simple. I need small... I have a borrowed enameled cast iron dutch oven that I think is maaaaaybe 3.5 quarts on a good day. I have parchment paper. I have no other special equipment, not even a lame (is that pronounced lāme or lah may?). I do have a sharp knife.
Is there a small loaf recipe banging around here?
Post by: turketron on April 18, 2020, 09:37:31 AM
W00t! Boy has it taken off since I fed it this noon! The rubber band is where it started. I wanna bake!
I see all sorts of recipes. I need simple. I need small... I have a borrowed enameled cast iron dutch oven that I think is maaaaaybe 3.5 quarts on a good day. I have parchment paper. I have no other special equipment, not even a lame (is that pronounced lāme or lah may?). I do have a sharp knife.
Is there a small loaf recipe banging around here?
Nice, it's looking great! Here's the recipe I've been using, it's pretty foolproof, and the video is helpful too. The amounts listed are for 2 loaves, but if you halve the measurements it's perfect for one loaf that fits well in my 4qt dutch oven.: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/
I proof mine in a ~3quart mixing bowl (if you proof it overnight in the fridge use a bowl with a lid or cover it with plastic wrap) lined with a floured tea towel, but if you don't have a towel I've read that you can lightly oil the bowl with vegetable or olive oil. A sharp knife works fine if you don't have a razor/lame.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 18, 2020, 12:29:13 PM
W00t! Boy has it taken off since I fed it this noon! The rubber band is where it started. I wanna bake!
I see all sorts of recipes. I need simple. I need small... I have a borrowed enameled cast iron dutch oven that I think is maaaaaybe 3.5 quarts on a good day. I have parchment paper. I have no other special equipment, not even a lame (is that pronounced lāme or lah may?). I do have a sharp knife.
Is there a small loaf recipe banging around here?
Second post in this thread but it's for two loaves... that's the first recipe I tried :)
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/the-sourdough-thread/msg139660/#msg139660
Otherwise, I've been basing my recent attempts off this recipe (which is for one loaf), which seems pretty good too:
https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/
After a few times doing it with a single loaf, you'll probably want to do larger batches (at least two loaves) just to maximize on your time, since it is a drawn-out process. I currently have a couple rounds bench resting and getting ready for their final shaping. Hope these next ones turn out well. Can't wait till I get my banneton set.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 18, 2020, 06:15:06 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yEPeqKl9wwVrdUSfQJiTcSFUHv5fKUpk91ORTzhcfX_Eg_iiZsf6BK5cTN8006HowxrRoF-VfrdtYTb2DlsLfvlh_SFsg6skOqZPFF1AkGstQ869MrXTahXLruOyYc_7gB7gOK0Jpjy8FY8RIYKSoNNE9w1CKi4bm_jlHjXcz3d_jhhQTpAH2_pdAYRo41AIcaFRcnEDSirIQgsD_px0kNBMR6vfKFHkFZ1D_DSVCli6ouL_oEFZdx86FKqNPaujQz3UyUgm_8lYPMW5amvlqZUQXMMZDIjqv1bu_o7UtAc1Cs80-ZqcYJgrwYrDoacndswh5_a4Y4FqDk7tynV-tUK0F-sMrH9pMSZ90F-I_0-ULgK3nxFGV8k9LpnQrppghQ00zZznvVjhMhVgLHzNahJSSOvjx_QmiKthP4ddGsLHNzyhdGpPLP05n0PbKU-wXN8yfq9iRedTo9mEL4wyxIS50tPceN_VWqpAxV3WeIK9S4qBARuwfmmZ0umaxihg8iKgLKLLviSUirvLju55ndOVsJr2UBY-NX2RJnZHH_zClt_AyeIvhf2-DeiALz4XqGzHdk3tiFi-l6CXVl9VFV8YLnCS3UqKXCLio-PJ6i30pPwHBSYgoe8nQ-dceOQFrlnPTXOa8ZygKnNLyLIF34XdajvlNV_pRgtFXF8DtjBUcgC7ZTfgHMoNDKXbAGLTtKzvhIoUBn4H_kcZAIuMRmY7rzeKLuNlSqOM31JN_hK0-rU0Wfvt-CZn=w1250-h938-no)
This one didn't come out so great - I was experimenting trying it in my Le Creuset Doufeu w/ water on top. I think the water likely lowered the temp too much resulting in a bread that didn't rise as nicely... definitely not going to add water again next time. That Trader Joes Everything Bagel topping is something else on the bread though:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oY4jFll9FB0V2PLA0Od3dvsKuT5brMvF0jEPf8ZryL_N7elWZh_35sZfve3Oj-V1PMI8LSfsXZzXN3YRmvh7kKSqSpJ7JZkwBYQ0-6w5cbyPMItKazca4vDIZhafNwPik_VR4HDKWLkzG67aRWz5QMBeSzyC3410sUJOqcBWhILGfXn0poNDmjiSHZyVNXXaOU5q3VGLR4FU_zG35MBmfVuk_TbNzSYCQz8zNhGtJInYHzb20DuBcLSV8j3nsO1UB_cn7ceprAu7bgYV9bRq8fEOwo5Coe7XaLqpJb-mRilytEVf-OOQCdsemOeUcDY03frKuZXs6UYhM5UCDAfznIgQKLtIffFbTV3lBhvf4_4GyPT0uko4RMCNWjmBU2OJJ16CszVMMi8RaXrum2yuUcb1YiTMKKytewr7zgeZfRf4LKAAjhfChox1p6--tSR0cQ8k2kKClN8F3MQDHQXmrD1LO2u3HWtdQgk2fmkczU4x_nyfT57UB41fK6hcbhUJDWJnmcIRqjm2vC4Qu2F0NWc0HE-tpSZMKu1KfWI4cDkjKD_Vq9appSO1OdZu0uIL7kNwt5TGkQgaXJQJnTMdpCQhu2MdHUoiQ9VPuCZ77iUk_t6YKUwD9_UmI0bkxqAhxey8PZ2ij-9CMD8_-1cZaXkllNHe8cQWNFAOAr0YlaQBMxx8ivWU8MjDhaOrNgOuULYvHGolCMBuyMTod0EFaNM-XTDAvZtbldUgxfNNHqoKwqjXdFJ5_GGN=w1250-h938-no)
This is the other loaf that I cooked 'as normal' in the round dutch oven - it came out much nicer all around:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kBs25khAMZh-mnU1U_FcN2HcFEKVnwKaalklLLUM-95mabpTPI4JsRvJyfbW5Bdte0UTKiYnze_Bhb6ard2Zi1YlF30RhY6AEK0HJB85JFxzVdwI3gLue7Hnk7T0v4Ikvjc-Jw3puid5Z1bd96OQs_a3OFwd4q4oO-N8Pkp250o80MUevA22fsXZqlPJZGnZAF1fRoFuAVJg-c0hSML_YcUCXRBFXJ5OSl7V_a2sm-Y0boLerYn7MqBzUBPnPaXXyXL4QDN_nvxrJ6L1SHt2wZi1yIyWNCb0sb6ZoKb51Wtk0u1Bs80yUVUv_ka6LQ_ydfkjpsYROYZX9zgWr8KkYmn6pv3M4h5xIC6oAilHpTG9n6_Po1DCZQ7305H2ExKugOCAXwtWBJLCDn7Y0m4FCZMKiwoMbhm-CG0G7hp-yDCxebrr69r6FXYtoOs1eY0IFBP_cgW2hfP0KbrG1ynCV1LGz-vPtYj2gGHnfYiDM4WGDchsxC3opfz0BuT2GsaF0EFriPaRMvKxLCYd_jQ3IUeSy4PJFg9IEEp5GDwMDOe6htvBRURXdXD4pehhfnNu8fZDifmUpATiTtWSYze2ArD2cJidASYC7E-dCiX1G98UUd9XVbXOTIbrWz9_NarEQBRQXRDfmaFoFyy5Ee2MsQr-3bpAM8OH7j6q0sqo_7YPmcifhOAR-b7EijlEbINNA4dVG5g-cL888fIdQHXIvmybYByl5BRaxUM3j1icsUv7UQZrowhz7fCP=w1250-h938-no)
I'm still having some trouble getting a better-rising loaf so have to work on that. But the loaves are improving overall. The other thing is that I increased the amount of stone ground wheat flour, which I think has resulted in a slightly more dense loaf which I've heard seem not to rise *as well* as when using a larger proportion of AP or bread flours.
Post by: geekette on April 18, 2020, 07:53:35 PM
My first loaf is in the fridge for the first overnight rise, but with the discard, I made a variation of these (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) crackers (all white flour, and subbing rosemary for the herbs de Provence), and they're great!
They were also surprisingly easy. I rolled chunks of dough as thin as I could one at a time on a silpat mat, then moved them to parchment to bake. Will definitely do this again, probably with that TJ's everything but the bagel seasoning - good stuff!
Post by: geekette on April 20, 2020, 02:49:02 PM
The dough was too thin, and stuck to the towel, except where there were great gobs of flour. Then in the parchment paper, it oozed into the folds. I see mentions of rice flour, maybe that would help. Or a banneton. Or a heftier dough. I'll work on that.
Post by: LightTripper on April 20, 2020, 04:02:50 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 20, 2020, 06:38:52 PM
This may be the ugliest sourdough loaf I've ever seen, but it's tasty. Mild sourdough taste, but for a first attempt, I'll take it.
The dough was too thin, and stuck to the towel, except where there were great gobs of flour. Then in the parchment paper, it oozed into the folds. I see mentions of rice flour, maybe that would help. Or a banneton. Or a heftier dough. I'll work on that.
Looks pretty good to me! You really got your to rise a lot which is nice. I have the same issue with the parchement paper causing deformities. Not quite sure the best way to prevent that.
Post by: turketron on April 21, 2020, 06:30:45 AM
Post by: LightTripper on April 21, 2020, 06:39:43 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 22, 2020, 01:01:38 PM
I've been cutting the parchment into a circle that fits in the inside diameter of my dutch oven, so there's no folds/pleats coming up the sides of the pot. I've been able to re-use the same piece for a few bakes in a row, and then I use the existing circle to trace a new round one once it's past the point of re-use.
I was thinking about this! Thanks for doing and confirming it - I'll probably do that moving forward :)
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 23, 2020, 05:54:13 AM
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 23, 2020, 06:25:43 AM
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake. The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.
Post by: robartsd on April 23, 2020, 11:38:03 AM
Boiling water (100 C) to water vapor (100 C): 2256 J/g
Cold water (0 C) to water vapor (100 C): 4.187 J/g/C * 100 C + 2256 J/g = 2674.7 J/g (18.5% more energy)
Ice (0 C) to water vapor (100 C): 334 J/g + 4.187 J/g/C * 100 C + 2256 J/g = 3008.7 J/g (33.4% more energy)
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html)
Post by: jeromedawg on April 25, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake. The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.
Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).
BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 25, 2020, 02:30:43 PM
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake. The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.
Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).
BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?
Letting the dough rise outside the fridge really helps. Using at least 50% white flour helps as well. During my last breads, I mixed it for a long time after putting together all ingredients. I think that also helped.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 25, 2020, 04:29:30 PM
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake. The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.
Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).
BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?
Letting the dough rise outside the fridge really helps. Using at least 50% white flour helps as well. During my last breads, I mixed it for a long time after putting together all ingredients. I think that also helped.
Can you proof dough outside of the fridge to get it to rise a bit more, then pop it into the fridge to slow down the rise and allow fermentation?
EDIT: I ended up putting one bowl of the proofing dough in the oven and it rose considerably. I took it out and popped it in the fridge to slow it down. I still had the second bowl in the fridge so ended up moving that to the oven to allow to rise as well and will pop it back in the fridge after it gets a little more rise. Hopefully these things won't deflate in the fridge or after I pull them out to bake tomorrow morning.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 26, 2020, 10:19:35 AM
Anyway, let's see how this next set comes out....
Post by: jeromedawg on April 26, 2020, 10:59:07 AM
Anyway, I think the other problem was that I don't believe my dough was really shaped that well. I'm still having trouble figuring out the shaping part of all this. Maybe I'm using too wet of dough? But I keep it around 76-78%.
Post by: Linea_Norway on April 26, 2020, 12:47:02 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on April 26, 2020, 01:13:56 PM
For each batch that is not perfect, adjust one thing in the process and try again. After 8 or so batches, my bread really started to become decent.
I think this time around I let it proof for too long. Or I should have done one more stretch & fold before a *final* proof
Post by: geekette on April 26, 2020, 01:42:19 PM
But, hey, I didn’t have to score it because the top ripped off when I turned it out onto the parchment. And it rose like a champ.
Post by: jeromedawg on April 26, 2020, 01:57:43 PM
I’m finding it frustra...er, a steep learning curve as well. This time I managed to find some whole wheat flour and made a loaf with 350 gr bread flour, 50 grams of whole wheat, and I swear too much water. Gloopy, stuck to everything, and regardless of the incredible amount of flour I used on the tea towel, it really stuck to that...
But, hey, I didn’t have to score it because the top ripped off when I turned it out onto the parchment. And it rose like a champ.
Would love to get your method/recipe particularly for bulk fermentation, resting and proofing times. I must be doing something seriously wrong there or my starter is not 'good enough' - I haven't been able to come close to getting a rise like that no matter what I do.
Post by: geekette on April 26, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge. I swear she must be showing a double batch there. I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.
Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough. Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.
I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven. Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway. But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) crackers with the discard (using rosemary).
Post by: chaskavitch on April 26, 2020, 02:20:23 PM
It's pretty much this (https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/) one (although hers doesn't stick to everything!)
I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge. I swear she must be showing a double batch there. I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.
Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough. Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.
I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven. Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway. But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) crackers with the discard (using rosemary).
Thank you SO MUCH for that recipe! They look delish. I'm getting tired of waffles and crumpets, and of tossing so much leftover starter, and my husband and toddler LOVE crackers of every sort. I'm so excited!
Post by: jeromedawg on April 26, 2020, 03:52:29 PM
It's pretty much this (https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/) one (although hers doesn't stick to everything!)
I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge. I swear she must be showing a double batch there. I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.
Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough. Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.
I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven. Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway. But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) crackers with the discard (using rosemary).
Haha that's the recipe I initially used (and posted here too) - it's the one I've been going back to. Part of it too is that I'm doubling the amounts so there may be some variation. I think I need to work on my starter a little more though as well as the final shaping.
Post by: LightTripper on April 26, 2020, 04:32:05 PM
My feel for how the dough should feel/behave is definitely improving a bit with practice, and I think heading off some disappointments. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200426/f423add177ba41542c54e2e9b3ed545e.jpg)
Post by: geekette on April 27, 2020, 04:38:09 PM
@jeromedawg, I wonder if mine rose more just because I'm using a smaller vessel (3.5qt). Still seems lacking in the flavor department.
I do love these crackers though. This is half a batch from the recipe above. My first time with some whole wheat added to the mix, and I used an Italian herb mix. Still prefer rosemary, but these are destined for someone who doesn't care for rosemary.
Post by: chaskavitch on April 28, 2020, 10:57:50 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on April 28, 2020, 11:35:42 AM
Post by: chaskavitch on April 28, 2020, 12:42:56 PM
Sourdough is typically a bit denser bread. Soft and fluffy typically needs proper yeast or soda as leavener.
Thanks, I guess that makes sense. Good thing I have like 3 cups of yeast in my freezer :)
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 28, 2020, 12:46:57 PM
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make? My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.
I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with. I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.
I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend. I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf. I used melted butter and 2% milk.
Post by: geekette on April 28, 2020, 01:31:49 PM
Haven't used it, but considering it, since I need sandwich bread.
Post by: Dogastrophe on April 28, 2020, 04:17:53 PM
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make? My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.
I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with. I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.
I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend. I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf. I used melted butter and 2% milk.
https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/
This is the other one I use. I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.
Post by: chaskavitch on April 28, 2020, 04:22:39 PM
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make? My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.
I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with. I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.
I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend. I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf. I used melted butter and 2% milk.
https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/
This is the other one I use. I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.
Thanks!
Post by: chaskavitch on May 02, 2020, 03:00:20 PM
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make? My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.
I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with. I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.
I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend. I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf. I used melted butter and 2% milk.
https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/
This is the other one I use. I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.
Thanks!
I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far. Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice. I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that. It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast. DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)
I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter. I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well.
ETA - sorry for the giant picture!
Post by: turketron on May 03, 2020, 10:24:33 AM
I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far. Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice. I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that. It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast. DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)
I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter. I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well.
ETA - sorry for the giant picture!
Oooo, looks good! Might have to try a sandwich loaf next. Which recipe did you use? There are two linked in the conversation you quoted.
Post by: chaskavitch on May 03, 2020, 10:29:41 AM
I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far. Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice. I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that. It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast. DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)
I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter. I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well.
ETA - sorry for the giant picture!
Oooo, looks good! Might have to try a sandwich loaf next. Which recipe did you use? There are two linked in the conversation you quoted.
Whoops! I used the Taste of Home recipe. The other one is a regular yeasted bread, no sourdough involved. The one I used called for 1.5 tsp yeast and 400g sourdough starter (or an equivalent weight in equal amounts of flour and water, if you don't have quite that much).
Post by: imadandylion on May 05, 2020, 11:17:08 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/pyGWDXh/0.jpg)
1. I used 110 degree water to mix the dough like I would with active dry yeast. I think this may have weakened my starter since the micro-organisms are probably not used to that... I think I probably should have stuck to somewhere between 70-85 degrees...?
2. I didn't see any warnings or didn't know that the dough is supposed to be very wet (I blame the bad instructions on the recipe I used, lol), so when I tried to knead it, I added flour. Oops... Also, I probably shouldn't have tried to knead it how I would with 'normal' bread anyway.
3. I underbaked it with time and possibly temperature (450 F and then 400 F), so it came out a bit gummy even though I let it cool for a really long time. Also, I think my dutch oven lost heat because while I was trying to slash the bread, I took a few minutes too long because the knife wasn't very sharp.
4. The recipe called for bread flour I think so I don't know if that changed anything.
I let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature before baking and it didn't double... It barely got any bigger even though it was quite warm... I was expecting a dense bread due to the mistakes so I was surprised to see any holes. Overall, it did taste good and all and it wasn't a bad experiment, but I can't wait to try it again this week! I also got rye flour and whole wheat berries so I'm excited to feed those to my starter and see how it changes. Next time I want to do a rye/whole wheat/all-purpose flour mix.
I also used sourdough discard in banana bread and it was very good, but I wasn't trying to let it ferment the batter or anything. Next up: Sourdough pancakes!
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 05, 2020, 11:32:28 AM
I made my first sourdough loaf over the weekend. Mistakes were made:
(https://i.ibb.co/pyGWDXh/0.jpg)
1. I used 110 degree water to mix the dough like I would with active dry yeast. I think this may have weakened my starter since the micro-organisms are probably not used to that... I think I probably should have stuck to somewhere between 70-85 degrees...?
2. I didn't see any warnings or didn't know that the dough is supposed to be very wet (I blame the bad instructions on the recipe I used, lol), so when I tried to knead it, I added flour. Oops... Also, I probably shouldn't have tried to knead it how I would with 'normal' bread anyway.
3. I underbaked it with time and possibly temperature (450 F and then 400 F), so it came out a bit gummy even though I let it cool for a really long time. Also, I think my dutch oven lost heat because while I was trying to slash the bread, I took a few minutes too long because the knife wasn't very sharp.
4. The recipe called for bread flour I think so I don't know if that changed anything.
I let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature before baking and it didn't double... It barely got any bigger even though it was quite warm... I was expecting a dense bread due to the mistakes so I was surprised to see any holes. Overall, it did taste good and all and it wasn't a bad experiment, but I can't wait to try it again this week! I also got rye flour and whole wheat berries so I'm excited to feed those to my starter and see how it changes. Next time I want to do a rye/whole wheat/all-purpose flour mix.
I also used sourdough discard in banana bread and it was very good, but I wasn't trying to let it ferment the batter or anything. Next up: Sourdough pancakes!
My $0.02:
1. Because the bulk fermentation can take 3 to 4 hours, I generally don't worry too much about the water temperature. I flip the tap on and get my water. I do a final proof in fridge overnight (8 - 12 hours)
2. Wetness (hydration level) is recipe specific - some will be very wet and lend themselves to a stretch and fold method rather than kneading. If dough is sticky, resist urge to add flour. The dough will happily accept it. Instead keep kneading it and it will come around. Take a look at videos 84, 88, and 131 on kneading techniques https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bake+with+jack+sourdough+kneading
3. Can't help with this one - I don't use a dutch oven.
4. What is the protein % of your flour?
Post by: imadandylion on May 05, 2020, 11:49:41 AM
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 05, 2020, 12:04:37 PM
@Dogastrophe Thanks for the videos. I watched 88 before but not the other ones listed. I think I need a dough scraper like that. I was trying to use my hands and constantly had to rewet them. Oh also, at some point I got frustrated and threw it into my stand mixer for like 10 minutes, thinking it would toughen it up like a 'normal' dough, lol, then I returned it into a bowl and this some intermittent folds. I attempted to use an icing spatula, but it just wasn't the same. Good to know about the water, one less thing to worry about. The bread flour I used is 12.7% protein.
Your flour protein is good so you can rule that out.
The first few times I made bread I had enough dough stuck to my fingers that it looked like I was making corndogs. Now that I figured out a technique that works for me I have very little issue. A small amount of olive oil on hands works well too.
I've been trying to find a good plastic scraper locally buy haven't had much luck. I have a bench scraper that I use to divide dough but it is a bit overkill at times for bringing it all back together when kneading. I've used a rubber spatula head in the past with mixed results.
Post by: Linea_Norway on May 06, 2020, 04:04:40 AM
This all worked better than when I used my hands.
Post by: LightTripper on May 06, 2020, 08:03:49 AM
My small bugbear is it kind of flipped on its way into the casserole, so the lines from the banneton ended up on the bottom. Anybody got any good tips for avoiding that?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/b20144aa03c0bf56d1bccae8cb11e441.jpg)
Post by: jeromedawg on May 07, 2020, 12:18:40 AM
Post by: GuitarStv on May 07, 2020, 07:44:15 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on May 07, 2020, 10:29:55 AM
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking. In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.
Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?
I currently have another couple loaves in the oven and they don't appear to be turning out as I wanted. Something is wrong with the way my structure is (or is not) forming - it keeps deflating. After pulling the dough out of the fridge this morning, which should have been the final proof, I let them come closer to room temp then dumped them onto the parchment paper and they almost immediately flattened out. I had to try to tighten them up and reshape before popping in the oven. I had the oven at 500F and put baking sheets under the dutch ovens to prevent burning. Just pulled the lids off and the feeling of defeat came over me again as I saw the loaves slightly flattened and almost no ear from the scores I made. This is starting to frustrate the heck out of me. Especially as I look at all the nice loaves people, including first timers on social media, are putting out :(
EDIT: just peeked in the oven again and the 'rise' looks slightly better on these but probably because I re-shaped them before popping them in the oven again. I don't know if I need to leave these in the fridge for longer or what. In any case, we'll see what the insides look like soon enough. I've only been able to achieve a nice crust/ear ONCE out of the half dozen times I've made these loaves thus far.
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 07, 2020, 11:19:43 AM
I do my proof overnight in fridge (shaped and lightly covered with a floured tea towel). Probably 12 to 14 hours in the fridge, pull them out, score, and put in oven.
For me, I gave up on the dutch over. I found it awkward to get the dough into it and scoured properly. I am currently just using cookie sheets lined with parchment and an oven temp of 425F (convection ... so 450F regular bake).
Post by: GuitarStv on May 07, 2020, 11:25:40 AM
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking. In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.
Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?
I'll stick the starter in the fridge if I want to ignore it and stop feeding. It lives happily in there for about a week - week and a half, and then comes right back after a feeding and 12 hrs on the counter. Other than that though, never really use the fridge.
I'm in Toronto . . . so it's pretty cold/dry in the winter and pretty warm/humid in the summer. :P
Post by: JLee on May 08, 2020, 08:14:55 AM
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking. In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.
Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?
I'll stick the starter in the fridge if I want to ignore it and stop feeding. It lives happily in there for about a week - week and a half, and then comes right back after a feeding and 12 hrs on the counter. Other than that though, never really use the fridge.
I'm in Toronto . . . so it's pretty cold/dry in the winter and pretty warm/humid in the summer. :P
I left mine in the fridge for about 1.5 weeks and it was pretty nasty looking -- it's amazing how it recovers!
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on May 16, 2020, 04:49:30 AM
Thank you all for a really informative thread!
Sourdough bread is something I've been wanting to try for ages, so like every last man and his dog I thought the current situation would be perfect. Only problem - the shortage of flour. Finally found some 'farm milled strong bread flour' and that along with my last bits of wholemeal meant I could finally give it a go.
Have been down many rabbit holes and read this thread start to finish. My starter is only on day 6 now, but it's been doubling in size pretty reliably after feeding since about day 3 so I thought it was time to try to bake something.
Plenty of trial and error still to go, but for a first attempt I'll take it - it tastes absolutely amazing
Next time:
- more scoring
- more oven preheating and to a higher temperature (forgot that my oven is no longer fan assist so should have increased the temperature to compensate)
- remember to put parchment sheet correct way up and flour bottom of loaf - it's currently stuck to the bottom of the loaf! mmmmm extra chewy bottom crust!
Post by: LightTripper on May 16, 2020, 08:21:06 AM
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on May 16, 2020, 01:41:05 PM
That looks fabulous. Can't believe that is your first attempt!! Hope it tasted as good as it looks (chewy base and all... :D)
Call it beginners luck and a lot of help along the way through reading other people's experience :D
Tastes absolutely fantastic (I've had to hide half from my partner so that we can enjoy it for more than 1 day!)
I see how improving on this could get very addictive (both the mastering of the process and the eating) very quickly.
Post by: turketron on May 16, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
Anyways, I divided it up into two bowls and proofed it in the fridge, and baked them simultaneously in my dutch ovens- I usually use 4 quart but threw the other loaf in the 7 quart even though it's way too big, just so I could bake them at the same time rather than keeping the oven on for hours. I got way more oven spring from one than the other, and I'm not sure why. I've attached a photo, the left one was in the larger DO and the right in the smaller one. Aside from the size of the dutch oven, really the only other difference is that the right one spent maybe another minute or two out of the fridge before going in the oven, as I pulled that one out first and scored it, then did the other one before putting them both in the oven. Any of you guys run into this?
Post by: habanero on May 18, 2020, 12:31:20 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on May 18, 2020, 09:43:27 PM
At first I was feeding with 2tbsp of flour and 2tbsp of water. Lately I've been measuring, by weight, 20g~ of each though (which roughly translates to 2tbsp of flour and 1.5tbsp of water).
Any tips or suggestions on how to fix this?
Post by: geekette on May 18, 2020, 10:03:06 PM
Yesterday I did start “toasting bread (https://alexandracooks.com/2019/04/17/easy-sourdough-sandwich-or-toasting-bread/)”, and after overnight in the fridge, half the day on the counter, and overproofing it in the pan (oops), it came out with a surprisingly decent looking crumb. I’ll see how it tastes tomorrow. Too full of dinner...
Post by: jeromedawg on May 18, 2020, 11:12:31 PM
I’m quite the newbie, but I’ve been feeding mine much differently. 100 grams of starter gets 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water. The next day, if I’m not baking bread, I discard 200 grams and feed again. Not that I actually discard it - the discard crackers (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) are too popular.
Yesterday I did start “toasting bread (https://alexandracooks.com/2019/04/17/easy-sourdough-sandwich-or-toasting-bread/)”, and after overnight in the fridge, half the day on the counter, and overproofing it in the pan (oops), it came out with a surprisingly decent looking crumb. I’ll see how it tastes tomorrow. Too full of dinner...
Whoa, 100 grams is a lot - that's nearly a cup each time! Unless my measurements are off... I'm just using a standard sized mason jar to keep my starter in so feeding it with 1 cup each time would be a lot I think.
Post by: JLee on May 19, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
I’m quite the newbie, but I’ve been feeding mine much differently. 100 grams of starter gets 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water. The next day, if I’m not baking bread, I discard 200 grams and feed again. Not that I actually discard it - the discard crackers (https://www.loveandoliveoil.com/2019/03/sourdough-crackers-with-olive-oil-herbs.html) are too popular.
Yesterday I did start “toasting bread (https://alexandracooks.com/2019/04/17/easy-sourdough-sandwich-or-toasting-bread/)”, and after overnight in the fridge, half the day on the counter, and overproofing it in the pan (oops), it came out with a surprisingly decent looking crumb. I’ll see how it tastes tomorrow. Too full of dinner...
Whoa, 100 grams is a lot - that's nearly a cup each time! Unless my measurements are off... I'm just using a standard sized mason jar to keep my starter in so feeding it with 1 cup each time would be a lot I think.
I'm doing 4 ounces of flour + 4 ounces of water (by weight) each time, which is about 3/4 cup?
Post by: geekette on May 19, 2020, 09:17:54 AM
What I’ve seen recommended is a 1:1:1 ratio, by weight, of starter, flour, and water. I’m sure there are other methods.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 19, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Post by: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 10:24:37 AM
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/frequently-asked-sourdough-starter-questions/
Scepticism of float test here also:
https://sourdough.com/posts/float-test-starter-or-levain-there-difference
Post by: jeromedawg on May 19, 2020, 10:42:51 AM
I think the float test also depends on hydration (see the bottom of this page) - it's not a hard and fast "rule" that it has to float, I don't think.
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/frequently-asked-sourdough-starter-questions/
Scepticism of float test here also:
https://sourdough.com/posts/float-test-starter-or-levain-there-difference
Diana
I think I had read tidbits here and there. All I know is that these past couple instances where I made loaves, and nothing substantially different, the starter never floated. It could have actually been my proofing times though but hard to know since I don't document ore recall every single step. That said, the activity of my starter doesn't seem extremely vigorous - lately it has just been nearly doubling in size and nothing more in a matter of probably 4-8 hours? I actually haven't measured by time, which is something I may ought to consider doing. At some point the starter was nearly tripling in size, so it has definitely 'weakened' - I try to remember to feed the starter kept in the fridge on a weekly basis but I may not be feeding it enough. I have a ton of starter in the fridge and usually just add a couple tbsp of flour and water to it to 'maintain' - not sure if that's OK or if I really should be discarding (at least for the one I keep in the fridge). I'll pour off build-up from the starter I leave out on the counter into that same jar too, so not sure if that is resulting in some sort of hindrance.
Post by: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 11:17:03 AM
My starter is not super active and to start with I was getting rather dense loaves, but then I started just giving them more time (as our house is pretty cool) and they come out pretty good now, despite a starter that doesn't always float.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 19, 2020, 11:23:19 AM
Could it be more about temperatures for your bulk fermentation and rises?
My starter is not super active and to start with I was getting rather dense loaves, but then I started just giving them more time (as our house is pretty cool) and they come out pretty good now, despite a starter that doesn't always float.
Possibly. For the last couple loaves I bulk fermented them in the fridge overnight - not sure if that was enough time so maybe I ought to try bulk fermenting on the counter instead?
Post by: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 01:08:11 PM
I actually wrote out all the times at different temperatures in a table. Although annoyingly for most on this thread, I converted f to C!! Still, may be useful so have included below. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200519/a1eb4c35e34d996921a892abd7846415.jpg)
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 19, 2020, 01:16:20 PM
Yes, my Tartine book says 10 hours at cool room temperature (3-4 if warm), so temperature makes a big difference. So maybe trying room temperature could help?
I actually wrote out all the times at different temperatures in a table. Although annoyingly for most on this thread, I converted f to C!! Still, may be useful so have included below.
I'm a Gen-X Canadian. I understand room / outdoor temperature in C but cooking temps in F (and not the other way around).
Post by: LightTripper on May 19, 2020, 03:01:39 PM
As a Gen-X Brit I am C for all temperatures, but have a weird mix of miles for long distances and metres for short, and stones for big weights but grams/kg for small
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 19, 2020, 03:29:32 PM
Weird how these changes work through isn't it?
As a Gen-X Brit I am C for all temperatures, but have a weird mix of miles for long distances and metres for short, and stones for big weights but grams/kg for small
I use feet and inch (and mm) for most measurements except long distance when I switch to kms. Speed in km/hr but can work in miles/hr.
Mix of pounds for large weights and grams for small. Stones never took off over here. I usually have to do the conversion to pounds (and kilograms) when I'm watching rugby, although I know that a 20 stone prop is slightly smaller than a tank.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 19, 2020, 06:25:44 PM
It works well for me (but I use closer to a quart size jar than a pint).
What I’ve seen recommended is a 1:1:1 ratio, by weight, of starter, flour, and water. I’m sure there are other methods.
Good news! I emptied it and went 1:1:1 starter:flour:water and at least most of the starter floated after rising pretty decently. I just realized that the 100g measurements you use actually isn't that much at all - I think that's about the amount you'd use for an amount of dough good for 2 loaves right (200-300g of starter)?
Post by: geekette on May 19, 2020, 06:40:36 PM
One thing I've learned watching videos is that my dough is much wetter than, well, anyone's! Must be our humidity. I'm going to cut back on the water to see if it makes things easier (less sticking to my hands, the tea towels, everything). At least I'm getting good flavor now!
Post by: jeromedawg on May 20, 2020, 01:31:17 AM
Post by: LightTripper on May 20, 2020, 02:10:21 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on May 20, 2020, 08:36:05 AM
The stupid thing is that something similar happened yesterday. I made a cake amd used a recipe from the internet. I blindøy used the temperature and baking time as described in the recipe and didn't check during the baking and when I started to smell the cake. But apparently my oven is different from the recipe, sonthe crumble crust had started to get black. Luckily it had a thick layer of crumble, so I could pick off all the dark parts and the cake still looked decent.
Edit: I cut off the top of the loaves andvthe insid3 of the bread still looks perfect. Therefore, no more throwing away than the tops.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 20, 2020, 12:39:59 PM
I end up dusting the board with flour (probably too much) just to get it somewhat manageable yet it still just deflates and flattens out. Maybe I've gone too long again on bulk fermentation? No idea but I had bulk fermented for several hours last night before popping in the fridge to slow things down. Took it out and let it rest and 'loosen' up for an hour or so before attempting to shape it. The part I'm really getting hung up on is shaping - I don't think it's supposed to be this hard but it is and I'm not sure how to make it easier... UGHHHH
Post by: Kmp2 on May 20, 2020, 01:17:31 PM
Also the bulk fermentation really does matter, if it goes too long then your dough is sticky without strength to shape. But my kitchen is cold... so a bulk fermentation of all day is about what I need, the only time I've over bulk fermented was when I put it in a warm oven to speed it up.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 20, 2020, 01:28:48 PM
I got frustrated enough with my high hydration doughs, and high whole wheat dough, that I went back and made a 100% white, with a 50% hydration to see if my 'shaping' skills had improved. They had, the bread was fabulous, with excellent oven rise. I decided to slowly ratchet up my hydration/whole wheat grains to see where I start to lose. I'm now up to about 40% whole wheat, and 70% hydration, and can still get really good shape, but since I like to switch out my grains almost every loaf I make going higher has been a struggle. Some grains would be fine, others not so much.
Also the bulk fermentation really does matter, if it goes too long then your dough is sticky without strength to shape. But my kitchen is cold... so a bulk fermentation of all day is about what I need.
My kitchen generally ranges between 75-78F in most cases. Not sure how much time that equates to as far as bulk fermentation goes. Maybe I'm giving too much time for the bulk fermentation or something, but I'm also afraid that if I don't go long enough I won't develop the flavor profile either. I think bulk fermenting in the fridge I haven't given enough time the past couple times (prior loaves I bulk fermented for like 10-12 hours then shaped and they were not sour at all and were also quite dense). Maybe I should have just shaped the dough last night but I think I would have had just as hard a time doing that. What is the "texture" supposed to be of the dough at the 'right state' of bulk fermentation when shaping is supposed to occur anyway?
Post by: Kmp2 on May 20, 2020, 01:34:54 PM
I'm in Canada, my bulk fermentation temperature might be that hot for 2 days/year... and I'm not likely baking anything on those scorchers!
Post by: jeromedawg on May 20, 2020, 02:16:19 PM
Have you been doing a window pane test? Generally if your fingers are floured (for high hydration dough) you should be able to pick up a bit, and stretch it out thin so that you can see light through it before it starts to tear. Video's are your friend here.
I'm in Canada, my bulk fermentation temperature might be that hot for 2 days/year... and I'm not likely baking anything on those scorchers!
I totally forgot to do it this time around. Is it possible to overwork the dough while attempting to shape it? I'm afraid I may have done that...again :(
Post by: MaybeBecca on May 21, 2020, 10:39:54 AM
I've only done one loaf at a time (I'm afraid I already have the "quarantine 15" as it is).
One thing I've learned watching videos is that my dough is much wetter than, well, anyone's! Must be our humidity. I'm going to cut back on the water to see if it makes things easier (less sticking to my hands, the tea towels, everything). At least I'm getting good flavor now!
What's your hydration, if I might ask? I started close to 80%, had several dense flat loaves that stuck to everything, and backed it up to about 70-72% with good results.
If you find that your dough still sticks at lower hydration, putting water on your hands and tools can help it not to stick. I've even had success with scoring with a wetted, home-sharpened knife - which is to say it's not the sharpest blade.
Post by: jeromedawg on May 21, 2020, 10:57:26 AM
Post by: Kmp2 on May 21, 2020, 12:42:05 PM
Even 65-68% (325g of water instead of 375g in a 500g of flour loaf).
75 is pretty tricky, any time I've tried more than about 72% I flip it out of the banneton and it immediately starts to flatten. Getting a tight enough skin to contain it enough to bake... high skill activity.
Another thing that helped my oven rise is I bake the first 20 minutes at 500F, instead of 450... and dial back to 400 with the lid off in my dutch oven. I guessed my oven runs colder.
Post by: geekette on May 21, 2020, 01:05:52 PM
eta: Nevermind. I think this site gives me the answers. Sourdough hydration explained. (https://truesourdough.com/sourdough-hydration-explained-what-why-how-when/)
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on May 21, 2020, 03:57:34 PM
I'm very glad I did now and will probably stick to that for a few more loaves.
I did make a 92% hydration focaccia earlier this week - wow what a difference in gloopy-ness, but the advantage of focaccia is that shaping is completely irrelevant!
Post by: Linea_Norway on May 22, 2020, 08:09:33 AM
I am still very much a beginner, I started with 65% hydration, but mostly white flour, on purpose after realizing that lower hydration was likely to be easier (but without all the nuanced information in the link Geekette just posted).
I'm very glad I did now and will probably stick to that for a few more loaves.
I did make a 92% hydration focaccia earlier this week - wow what a difference in gloopy-ness, but the advantage of focaccia is that shaping is completely irrelevant!
Good idea. I might make a foccacia as well. I have never eaten one made with sourdough.
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on May 23, 2020, 06:39:11 AM
Used a recipe from a friend. This was 100g active starter (mine is just a white flour starter), 250g flour (I used about half stronger bread flour - 12.7% protein, half weaker bread flour - 11.7% protein, because that is what I had), 230ml water, 1 tbsp olive oil, 5g salt.
I mixed it all to a gloopy mess then kept mixing for a good few minutes. Did a sort of bulk fermentation till I was ready to go to bed (2.5hrs?) with some attempts at stretch and fold at the start (don't think this is necessary in this case, but I wanted to see how the really wet dough behaved).
dumped into my heavily oiled square baking pan and then, cause I had no idea how long it might take to double, I put it in the fridge overnight, removed it the next morning and didn't bake until the evening (looking back, my room temperature was very much at the cold end last week and I could have happily left the dough out for its final rise. Oh well.
Pre-heat oven to hot - 230C and just before baking dimple (oiled hands) and top the focaccia by drizzling more olive oil and whatever you fancy. I put some garlic slices in some of the dimples and added rosemary and sea salt flakes on the top. Bake until done.
alternatively, for a more precise recipe Maurizio's at the perfect loaf seems good
Post by: geekette on May 24, 2020, 09:15:33 AM
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on May 25, 2020, 02:57:33 PM
Pretty pleased with boule number 2.
It stuck to the tea towel, but I managed to carefully ease it off with just a little deflation. Crumb prettier than the last boule and prettier crust too, got some well spaced decent holes this time! Still very tasty.
Unfortunately I'm now almost out of flour (again!) and there was none in the shop so have just ordered a bulk bag (16kg) from a local-ish farm and mill (about an hour away). It'll hopefully arrive some time this week. Not allowed to get bored/give up after a couple of loaves now!
Post by: chicagomeg on May 27, 2020, 12:47:29 PM
It seems like to go to the higher hydration loaves the shaping basket is recommended. I'm curious how many of you use one & if you have any suggestions where to find it; they're selling for 3x the normal price right now at Amazon!
ETA: Anyone tried using a grill to bake the bread? I got up at 6:30 to run the oven before it got too hot but it still really heats up the house. We have a charcoal and a gas grill but don't have a baking stone, although getting one has been on the list for consideration for a long time!
Post by: Kmp2 on May 27, 2020, 04:43:18 PM
I have never baked loaves on the grill, just flatbread, pitas and pizzas.
and I love the idea of high hydration foccacia.. I've also seen ciabatta done that way. And many thanks @geekette for the wonderful link on hydration!
Post by: x02947 on May 28, 2020, 01:34:53 PM
We freeze the leftover waffles and biscuits and use them throughout the two weeks as nice additions to our oatmeal and homemade yogurt.
Now I just need to work on my biscuit gravy :)
Post by: geekette on May 28, 2020, 02:02:48 PM
I've just been making crackers with the discard. We don't do waffles or pancakes, but flaky biscuits...
I finally procured a large dutch oven and hope to have a large olive oil and rosemary boule in the next day or two.
Post by: turketron on May 28, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
Post by: geekette on May 28, 2020, 03:01:09 PM
Post by: x02947 on May 29, 2020, 11:09:20 AM
Post by: geekette on May 29, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
Post by: chicagomeg on May 29, 2020, 11:26:51 PM
I chickened out and bought an enameled cast iron dutch oven, so unfortunately I don't have any cast iron (unless you count a cornstick pan I picked up at a thrift store and used all of once). I'm hoping that they will do okay on a regular cookie sheet. Or maybe two sheet pans nested? Hmmm.
The enameled cast iron should work ok, just leave the lid off.
Post by: Dogastrophe on May 30, 2020, 05:40:25 PM
I chickened out and bought an enameled cast iron dutch oven, so unfortunately I don't have any cast iron (unless you count a cornstick pan I picked up at a thrift store and used all of once). I'm hoping that they will do okay on a regular cookie sheet. Or maybe two sheet pans nested? Hmmm.
I have been baking mine on parchment lined cookie sheets with no issues.
Post by: x02947 on June 01, 2020, 09:16:27 AM
I chickened out and bought an enameled cast iron dutch oven, so unfortunately I don't have any cast iron (unless you count a cornstick pan I picked up at a thrift store and used all of once). I'm hoping that they will do okay on a regular cookie sheet. Or maybe two sheet pans nested? Hmmm.
Yah, after baking with the cast iron and with cookie sheets, and looking at her comments, I think the only reason she uses the cast iron is because It takes longer to heat up, so the bottoms of the biscuits don't get so much heat right away and don't get so crispy/brown. This definitely falls into the "modify the recipe to whatever works for you" category. I mostly use my cast iron because it is super well seasoned by now so I just give it a quick dry brushing afterwards and it's all clean.
Post by: MishMash on June 01, 2020, 04:30:46 PM
Post by: geekette on June 01, 2020, 06:49:50 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on June 02, 2020, 02:48:11 AM
posting to follow. Did my first boule today and it came out a flat mess. I tried the recipe on the clever carrot and even though it was supposed to be dry it came out wet to me. Wonder if the water softener has anything to do with it. Took about 5 hours to double in the oven with the light on. looked beautiful after the first proof, spread out and flattened when I put it in the dutch oven :-(
I think that when you after the first poof put it in another form, you'd better let it poof for a second time before putting into the oven.
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 03, 2020, 09:57:05 AM
posting to follow. Did my first boule today and it came out a flat mess. I tried the recipe on the clever carrot and even though it was supposed to be dry it came out wet to me. Wonder if the water softener has anything to do with it. Took about 5 hours to double in the oven with the light on. looked beautiful after the first proof, spread out and flattened when I put it in the dutch oven :-(
overproofed? undershaped? low protein flour?
I had my first definite overproof at the weekend. Ambient temperature was A LOT warmer than the week before and I hadn't taken that into account enough. It was still tasty and the denser crumb made sandwiches easy ;)
I have high hopes for my current boule, it looks the best to date so far and final rise only took 3.5hours! It's due to get colder again from today. I'm almost starting to wish I lived somewhere with a constant climate, if only for the ease of baking.
Post by: Kmp2 on June 03, 2020, 10:05:50 AM
It was warm, I left the house and didn't get back as early as I'd hoped... normally my 18C kitchen things would've been fine... but not at 22C!
Everything still tastes good, but the brioche hamburger buns were more like ciabatta, and the sourdough had no oven rise, and is flat with dense tight crumb.
Post by: Linea_Norway on June 04, 2020, 04:50:39 AM
Post by: coffeefueled on June 04, 2020, 05:36:53 PM
Post by: geekette on June 04, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
But for poofing times, isn't it just a matter of waiting until the dough has doubled? And if overpoofed, then stretch and fold and poof again?I believe the problem with over proofing is that the yeast run out of food, so it can’t rise well.
Post by: x02947 on June 05, 2020, 09:15:11 AM
But for poofing times, isn't it just a matter of waiting until the dough has doubled? And if overpoofed, then stretch and fold and poof again?I believe the problem with over proofing is that the yeast run out of food, so it can’t rise well.
Also, something something overproofing breaks up the gluten strands, I think.
I'm running into the issue of my starter keeps getting shoved to the back of my fridge, so everytime I take it out it has a solidified (not quite frozen?) layer on top from being kept too cold.
Post by: geekette on June 05, 2020, 11:17:49 AM
Post by: x02947 on June 05, 2020, 01:10:35 PM
It doesn't seem to harm it any, but I haven't really been able test what it's like without the top being nearly frozen. Stuff till turns out fine, I just have to mix it up super well to break it into tiny chunks.
Post by: jeromedawg on June 06, 2020, 05:37:39 PM
Did I not use enough starter? I had about 160-170grams of starter to 800g~ of flour.
The loafs came out fairly decent but still lacking in height:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fUYvXydLQDbY38oRHIh9JnM4wNC0MlJuvUrCIjsDJ5eZhQNC91m-HRrLdE6M_yKsTX3ynF29DBvnKhTBHS2bmb6sqIJqmteEU7FtQ8t3I71DSlbGLTgMSR49m8JpvabVFH4rg_lpt17yn1VIsk9MMJUg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cfdshpwTYqScvm9lbozXe3vrRn-KNdGWPfS6RcC62xve0YB0BI4zOascdXNx-h8imC4ZjzG3EAY7oZ0DdGAD81T6Yz9IbDr7SrV6Y83fRjszpNx8fi9jtrOpHQ8ohjn4FVEBUujgKwzqV7v1VZ9z86rg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
Post by: Dogastrophe on June 07, 2020, 06:09:32 AM
edit: trying to make the pick size a bit smaller
Post by: the_gastropod on June 07, 2020, 08:18:08 AM
Post by: LightTripper on June 07, 2020, 05:16:42 PM
Post by: Dogastrophe on June 08, 2020, 04:53:34 AM
Post by: MaybeBecca on June 09, 2020, 08:37:06 AM
Just made another batch today. Quick Q but what does it typically mean if my loaf is lacking in flavor? After initially mixing and letting sit for 30 minutes, I did 4 folds 30 mins apart across 2 hours before sticking it in the fridge overnight for about 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. Did I not allow it to bulk ferment for long enough? I'm still not sure how to go about bulk fermentation, logistically, when I don't want to leave it out but want to slow it down enough in the case of when I am splitting this between days because I don't want to stay up all night. Is it OK to remove the dough from the fridge during bulk fermentation in hopes of expediting the process of fermentation? And if so, how much longer do I let it rest at room temp? I know they say it varies by environment but I also find it odd that there are still general time ranges given (like 4-6 hours at room temp and as long as 8-24 hours in the fridge lol).
Did I not use enough starter? I had about 160-170grams of starter to 800g~ of flour.
The loafs came out fairly decent but still lacking in height:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fUYvXydLQDbY38oRHIh9JnM4wNC0MlJuvUrCIjsDJ5eZhQNC91m-HRrLdE6M_yKsTX3ynF29DBvnKhTBHS2bmb6sqIJqmteEU7FtQ8t3I71DSlbGLTgMSR49m8JpvabVFH4rg_lpt17yn1VIsk9MMJUg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cfdshpwTYqScvm9lbozXe3vrRn-KNdGWPfS6RcC62xve0YB0BI4zOascdXNx-h8imC4ZjzG3EAY7oZ0DdGAD81T6Yz9IbDr7SrV6Y83fRjszpNx8fi9jtrOpHQ8ohjn4FVEBUujgKwzqV7v1VZ9z86rg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
Something I can help with! Small book incoming, as there are a lot of variables I don't know and want to address.
Are you intending this sourdough to be 10% starter? Because, while 160-170gms of starter is 20% of the flour weight, starter is measured by what weight of the flour is in the starter. So if you're looking for a total of 800 grams of flour, for 20% in the starter, you'd have 640g of dry flour and 320g of starter (assuming your starter is equal parts flour and water). 640 + (320/2) = 800g flour total in your recipe. Lower amounts of starter are perfectly reasonable, if you are willing to let them sit for longer. That could be part of the issue, that it did not bulk ferment long enough with that amount of starter. Generally, lower starter amounts will lend to a greater sour flavor (seems counterintuitive, I know).
How active is your starter? Is there liquid sitting on top when you use it? If so, it is hungry and needs better feeding before using it as your sole leavener in a loaf. I save my discard for all kinds of things that I will leaven by other means (or that don't require leavening), but for sourdough loaves your starter needs to be strong and active.
I see that you did several stretch and folds, but did you perform a windowpane test before moving to bulk ferment? It's important that your gluten development is solid in order to see the maximum rise. If you do your stretch and folds but don't get a good windowpane (light visible through thinly stretched dough without the dough tearing), it's okay to wait another 30 mins and stretch and fold again until you do get a windowpane.
I almost always will bulk ferment at room temp (generally for 3-5 hours with 20% starter), then shape and retard the loaf (put it in the fridge overnight). I have had success with overnight fridge bulk fermentation, then letting it sit out for about an hour, then shaping and returning to the fridge for 2-3 hours before baking. The dough will tell you when it's ready to be shaped. If you poke it gently and it springs back some, but not completely, bulk fermentation is done. It can be really hard at first to figure it out, and I had a lot of short dense loaves before I had even one good one.
Additional flavor component is salt; what is your salt percentage? I go with 1.5-2% which seems to be the general recommendation. Less is a little flaccid; more can be overwhelming. But the right amount of salt will make the loaf sing.
And lastly, at least for now, letting your loaf sit even after baking deepens the sour flavor if left at room temp. When it takes me a few days to get through a loaf, the sourness comes out more later on. And I don't see much deterioration in the softness/moisture of the bread over that length of time.
Hopefully some of that is helpful to you!
Post by: geekette on June 09, 2020, 02:55:52 PM
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 10, 2020, 11:05:32 AM
Post by: turketron on June 12, 2020, 08:22:29 AM
Anyways, I divided it up into two bowls and proofed it in the fridge, and baked them simultaneously in my dutch ovens- I usually use 4 quart but threw the other loaf in the 7 quart even though it's way too big, just so I could bake them at the same time rather than keeping the oven on for hours. I got way more oven spring from one than the other, and I'm not sure why. I've attached a photo, the left one was in the larger DO and the right in the smaller one. Aside from the size of the dutch oven, really the only other difference is that the right one spent maybe another minute or two out of the fridge before going in the oven, as I pulled that one out first and scored it, then did the other one before putting them both in the oven. Any of you guys run into this?
A second test confirms it, the smaller DO produces a much higher oven spring- this photo is from right when the lids came off. I guess I'll bake them separately now, but that means having the oven running twice as long, at least until I can find another 4 or 5qt dutch oven on craigslist or something.
Post by: LightTripper on June 12, 2020, 08:34:54 AM
Post by: turketron on June 12, 2020, 09:11:40 AM
Do you have a suitable size/shape Pyrex dish? Those work well too...
Oh good call! I think we have one that might work, we used it a couple times a few years ago for a no-knead recipe before we had a dutch oven. From a quick google it sounds like the issue is that the extra space means that the steam doesn't stay on the surface of the loaf so it doesn't stay moist, which restricts the oven spring. So I might also try spraying a little extra water on the loaf in the big DO and see if that compensates for it.
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 13, 2020, 11:11:34 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on June 13, 2020, 06:04:03 PM
Just made another batch today. Quick Q but what does it typically mean if my loaf is lacking in flavor? After initially mixing and letting sit for 30 minutes, I did 4 folds 30 mins apart across 2 hours before sticking it in the fridge overnight for about 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. Did I not allow it to bulk ferment for long enough? I'm still not sure how to go about bulk fermentation, logistically, when I don't want to leave it out but want to slow it down enough in the case of when I am splitting this between days because I don't want to stay up all night. Is it OK to remove the dough from the fridge during bulk fermentation in hopes of expediting the process of fermentation? And if so, how much longer do I let it rest at room temp? I know they say it varies by environment but I also find it odd that there are still general time ranges given (like 4-6 hours at room temp and as long as 8-24 hours in the fridge lol).
Did I not use enough starter? I had about 160-170grams of starter to 800g~ of flour.
The loafs came out fairly decent but still lacking in height:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fUYvXydLQDbY38oRHIh9JnM4wNC0MlJuvUrCIjsDJ5eZhQNC91m-HRrLdE6M_yKsTX3ynF29DBvnKhTBHS2bmb6sqIJqmteEU7FtQ8t3I71DSlbGLTgMSR49m8JpvabVFH4rg_lpt17yn1VIsk9MMJUg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cfdshpwTYqScvm9lbozXe3vrRn-KNdGWPfS6RcC62xve0YB0BI4zOascdXNx-h8imC4ZjzG3EAY7oZ0DdGAD81T6Yz9IbDr7SrV6Y83fRjszpNx8fi9jtrOpHQ8ohjn4FVEBUujgKwzqV7v1VZ9z86rg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
Something I can help with! Small book incoming, as there are a lot of variables I don't know and want to address.
Are you intending this sourdough to be 10% starter? Because, while 160-170gms of starter is 20% of the flour weight, starter is measured by what weight of the flour is in the starter. So if you're looking for a total of 800 grams of flour, for 20% in the starter, you'd have 640g of dry flour and 320g of starter (assuming your starter is equal parts flour and water). 640 + (320/2) = 800g flour total in your recipe. Lower amounts of starter are perfectly reasonable, if you are willing to let them sit for longer. That could be part of the issue, that it did not bulk ferment long enough with that amount of starter. Generally, lower starter amounts will lend to a greater sour flavor (seems counterintuitive, I know).
How active is your starter? Is there liquid sitting on top when you use it? If so, it is hungry and needs better feeding before using it as your sole leavener in a loaf. I save my discard for all kinds of things that I will leaven by other means (or that don't require leavening), but for sourdough loaves your starter needs to be strong and active.
I see that you did several stretch and folds, but did you perform a windowpane test before moving to bulk ferment? It's important that your gluten development is solid in order to see the maximum rise. If you do your stretch and folds but don't get a good windowpane (light visible through thinly stretched dough without the dough tearing), it's okay to wait another 30 mins and stretch and fold again until you do get a windowpane.
I almost always will bulk ferment at room temp (generally for 3-5 hours with 20% starter), then shape and retard the loaf (put it in the fridge overnight). I have had success with overnight fridge bulk fermentation, then letting it sit out for about an hour, then shaping and returning to the fridge for 2-3 hours before baking. The dough will tell you when it's ready to be shaped. If you poke it gently and it springs back some, but not completely, bulk fermentation is done. It can be really hard at first to figure it out, and I had a lot of short dense loaves before I had even one good one.
Additional flavor component is salt; what is your salt percentage? I go with 1.5-2% which seems to be the general recommendation. Less is a little flaccid; more can be overwhelming. But the right amount of salt will make the loaf sing.
And lastly, at least for now, letting your loaf sit even after baking deepens the sour flavor if left at room temp. When it takes me a few days to get through a loaf, the sourness comes out more later on. And I don't see much deterioration in the softness/moisture of the bread over that length of time.
Hopefully some of that is helpful to you!
Thanks for all the tips! I was sort of 'winging' it off memory but referencing the recipe at https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/ as a general guideline. I'm bad and lazy when it comes to measuring out, so need to get better at that. But you are right in that I probably used too much starter and didn't let the dough bulk ferment for a long enough time.
My starter has been relatively active. Today I took some out of the reserves in the fridge for a new batch (about 60g or so) then added equal parts water/flour to it and let it sit - it's now around 5pm and it hasn't quite yet doubled but is not far off. With the last loaves, I fed the starter like this twice before using it for that batch.
With the stretch and folds, I only did the windowpane test after bulk fermenting - I *think* it passed. But sounds like this test should be done after the stretch and folds, so I'll keep that in mind next time.
With 10% starter, how long would you bulk ferment for at room temp? I'll try your method of doing that then shaping and putting the fridge. Do you find that the second shaping and refrigeration helps the loaf maintain its shape better and is that why you do that? And do you bake the loaf straight out of the fridge from that point?
With the salt this time, I think I cut it short on the overall amount - that would also explain why it's slightly bland. I started putting salt in then lost count because I didn't tare the scale lol. I knew I was under - probably by several grams.
And as far as the sourness coming out - you're right, I think I noticed that after going through these loaves as the days have passed. Kinda like coffee after it's first roasted!
Post by: jeromedawg on June 15, 2020, 12:54:24 AM
Just made another batch today. Quick Q but what does it typically mean if my loaf is lacking in flavor? After initially mixing and letting sit for 30 minutes, I did 4 folds 30 mins apart across 2 hours before sticking it in the fridge overnight for about 8-9 hours to bulk ferment. Did I not allow it to bulk ferment for long enough? I'm still not sure how to go about bulk fermentation, logistically, when I don't want to leave it out but want to slow it down enough in the case of when I am splitting this between days because I don't want to stay up all night. Is it OK to remove the dough from the fridge during bulk fermentation in hopes of expediting the process of fermentation? And if so, how much longer do I let it rest at room temp? I know they say it varies by environment but I also find it odd that there are still general time ranges given (like 4-6 hours at room temp and as long as 8-24 hours in the fridge lol).
Did I not use enough starter? I had about 160-170grams of starter to 800g~ of flour.
The loafs came out fairly decent but still lacking in height:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fUYvXydLQDbY38oRHIh9JnM4wNC0MlJuvUrCIjsDJ5eZhQNC91m-HRrLdE6M_yKsTX3ynF29DBvnKhTBHS2bmb6sqIJqmteEU7FtQ8t3I71DSlbGLTgMSR49m8JpvabVFH4rg_lpt17yn1VIsk9MMJUg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cfdshpwTYqScvm9lbozXe3vrRn-KNdGWPfS6RcC62xve0YB0BI4zOascdXNx-h8imC4ZjzG3EAY7oZ0DdGAD81T6Yz9IbDr7SrV6Y83fRjszpNx8fi9jtrOpHQ8ohjn4FVEBUujgKwzqV7v1VZ9z86rg=w1388-h1041-no?authuser=0)
Something I can help with! Small book incoming, as there are a lot of variables I don't know and want to address.
Are you intending this sourdough to be 10% starter? Because, while 160-170gms of starter is 20% of the flour weight, starter is measured by what weight of the flour is in the starter. So if you're looking for a total of 800 grams of flour, for 20% in the starter, you'd have 640g of dry flour and 320g of starter (assuming your starter is equal parts flour and water). 640 + (320/2) = 800g flour total in your recipe. Lower amounts of starter are perfectly reasonable, if you are willing to let them sit for longer. That could be part of the issue, that it did not bulk ferment long enough with that amount of starter. Generally, lower starter amounts will lend to a greater sour flavor (seems counterintuitive, I know).
How active is your starter? Is there liquid sitting on top when you use it? If so, it is hungry and needs better feeding before using it as your sole leavener in a loaf. I save my discard for all kinds of things that I will leaven by other means (or that don't require leavening), but for sourdough loaves your starter needs to be strong and active.
I see that you did several stretch and folds, but did you perform a windowpane test before moving to bulk ferment? It's important that your gluten development is solid in order to see the maximum rise. If you do your stretch and folds but don't get a good windowpane (light visible through thinly stretched dough without the dough tearing), it's okay to wait another 30 mins and stretch and fold again until you do get a windowpane.
I almost always will bulk ferment at room temp (generally for 3-5 hours with 20% starter), then shape and retard the loaf (put it in the fridge overnight). I have had success with overnight fridge bulk fermentation, then letting it sit out for about an hour, then shaping and returning to the fridge for 2-3 hours before baking. The dough will tell you when it's ready to be shaped. If you poke it gently and it springs back some, but not completely, bulk fermentation is done. It can be really hard at first to figure it out, and I had a lot of short dense loaves before I had even one good one.
Additional flavor component is salt; what is your salt percentage? I go with 1.5-2% which seems to be the general recommendation. Less is a little flaccid; more can be overwhelming. But the right amount of salt will make the loaf sing.
And lastly, at least for now, letting your loaf sit even after baking deepens the sour flavor if left at room temp. When it takes me a few days to get through a loaf, the sourness comes out more later on. And I don't see much deterioration in the softness/moisture of the bread over that length of time.
Hopefully some of that is helpful to you!
Thanks for all the tips! I was sort of 'winging' it off memory but referencing the recipe at https://alexandracooks.com/2019/11/07/easy-whole-wheat-ish-sourdough-bread/ as a general guideline. I'm bad and lazy when it comes to measuring out, so need to get better at that. But you are right in that I probably used too much starter and didn't let the dough bulk ferment for a long enough time.
My starter has been relatively active. Today I took some out of the reserves in the fridge for a new batch (about 60g or so) then added equal parts water/flour to it and let it sit - it's now around 5pm and it hasn't quite yet doubled but is not far off. With the last loaves, I fed the starter like this twice before using it for that batch.
With the stretch and folds, I only did the windowpane test after bulk fermenting - I *think* it passed. But sounds like this test should be done after the stretch and folds, so I'll keep that in mind next time.
With 10% starter, how long would you bulk ferment for at room temp? I'll try your method of doing that then shaping and putting the fridge. Do you find that the second shaping and refrigeration helps the loaf maintain its shape better and is that why you do that? And do you bake the loaf straight out of the fridge from that point?
With the salt this time, I think I cut it short on the overall amount - that would also explain why it's slightly bland. I started putting salt in then lost count because I didn't tare the scale lol. I knew I was under - probably by several grams.
And as far as the sourness coming out - you're right, I think I noticed that after going through these loaves as the days have passed. Kinda like coffee after it's first roasted!
OK - I'm super frustrated right now. Followed Alexandria's recipe (100g starter, 300g water, 9g salt, and 400g flour) and am stuck at the shaping part AGAIN.
I ended up waiting about 4 hours or so *after* the stretch and folds for the dough to bulk ferment before shaping. The windowpane development isn't great - I'm finding the dough tearing. Also, the dough is still sticky. Has it not bulk fermented enough? Or is it over fermented? My kitchen is at 76F at 40% humidity. I just scooped the mess up into a bowl and threw it in the fridge. At this point I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do.
Post by: LightTripper on June 15, 2020, 07:14:30 AM
One time I ended up with completely sticky unmanageable dough (probably at the higher end of the water scale above) I ended up giving it a quite thorough knead to develop the gluten and then giving it a quick final prove to get a bit of air back in. I'm sure it's not at all a recommended method and obviously "you wouldn't start from there" but I did actually get an edible loaf, so it was a non-disaster, which at that point I settled for!
Post by: Dogastrophe on June 15, 2020, 08:20:12 AM
Give this recipe a go to get your confidence back (this is from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FVfJTGpXnU&list=PLBM6Q9may6S1JWGSZeAVmVu1x7cf3AL2w with some slight variations I've made during baking). Dough will be sticky but forms up nice.
800 g flour (11 - 13 % protein level)
460 mL tepid water
320 g starter (assuming you made your starter 50/50)
10 g salt (I usually thumb this back a bit)
Combine all. Turn onto work surface (I use a very (very) light dusting of flour) and knead until it passes window pane test. Approx 8 - 12 mins
Let rest for 3 hours
Divide into two (or four) equal sized portions. Shape into boules, batards, etc.
Let rise another 3 hours or put in refrigerator over night (this is what I do)
Pre heat oven to 450F.
If you are using a dutch oven, place in oven to preheat it. If baking stone, preheat as well. You can bake on a cookie sheet as well (I use cookie sheets and don't bother to preheat)
If you are going to use cookie sheets, gently arrange each of your doughs onto the sheets (if you are making two loaves, one per sheet; if four, two per sheet). Score the dough to your preferred pattern.
If 2 loaves, bake between 30 and 35 mins. If 4 loaves, bake between 25 - 30 mins. Loaf will sound hollow when done.
Try to let cool before cutting ..... good luck with that ....
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 15, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
That still sounds quite wet. I think my recipe is 100g starter, 10g salt, 325g water (can increase up to 375g for high hydration though in practice I don't have the skills to get a good loaf out of it that wet) and 500g flour. Maybe start lower hydration next time and then if that goes well increase it incrementally until you get a mix that works for you/your house/temperature/humidity etc?
One time I ended up with completely sticky unmanageable dough (probably at the higher end of the water scale above) I ended up giving it a quite thorough knead to develop the gluten and then giving it a quick final prove to get a bit of air back in. I'm sure it's not at all a recommended method and obviously "you wouldn't start from there" but I did actually get an edible loaf, so it was a non-disaster, which at that point I settled for!
Those were my exact starting proportions!
This gives me a dough that is kneadable. I think a lot of the internet forgets about all of the initial trial and error. I think that once you know what you're doing and can 'read' your starter and dough the no-knead doughs have a lot going for them, but until then, those that allow you to work the dough and knead by hand (lower hydration) seem more forgiving. No matter how hard bloggers try, a ton of embedded videos don't really replace getting to know what things feel like, your starter, and your surroundings for yourself.
I found with the 65% hydration I could skip stretch and fold and bulk ferment altogether to produce an easy 'beginner' loaf. Just knead until windowpane test passes, rest, shape, proof and bake.
I've since added in the other steps and they've definitely given me improved results, but they're not really necessary if your aim is to create easy, tasty bread
Post by: LightTripper on June 15, 2020, 10:48:06 AM
I went on a sourdough course about 5 years ago, and I'm pretty sure that despite being a complete beginner I made "better" bread then BUT after a couple of periods of not making bread and generally getting into bad habits, I'd rather aim for lower hydration and come out with something reliably very nice every time, rather than aiming for something extraordinary.
If increased practice/experience doesn't get me to where I want to be I may treat myself to another course when we're out of Covid-zone! I feel like I would get a lot more out of it now having actually made a lot of bread, had a lot of trial and error, etc.
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 16, 2020, 12:14:01 PM
Very true @CrabbitDutchie !
I went on a sourdough course about 5 years ago, and I'm pretty sure that despite being a complete beginner I made "better" bread then BUT after a couple of periods of not making bread and generally getting into bad habits, I'd rather aim for lower hydration and come out with something reliably very nice every time, rather than aiming for something extraordinary.
If increased practice/experience doesn't get me to where I want to be I may treat myself to another course when we're out of Covid-zone! I feel like I would get a lot more out of it now having actually made a lot of bread, had a lot of trial and error, etc.
That's something I've been considering doing as well. Think it would be worth it for a few ah ha moments. In the meantime on the whole I'm happy with the bread I'm baking. It's by no means perfect, but I'd now bring it out to share with people without being embarrassed by my efforts.
Post by: chicagomeg on June 16, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on June 20, 2020, 01:36:15 AM
Post by: CrabbitDutchie on June 23, 2020, 12:17:02 PM
made muffins this weekend - recipe on page 1 of this thread. Highly recommended!
Post by: Linea_Norway on June 24, 2020, 03:14:49 AM
Post by: geekette on July 03, 2020, 04:22:45 PM
I’m pretty happy with my latest low hydration boule, and my slicing is getting better, too, as long as I cut the boule in half before I slice.
Post by: Dogastrophe on September 26, 2020, 06:29:56 AM
Anyway, here's an easy recipe for sourdough pancakes. The last time I made it, I topped it with grilled peaches and blueberries. :) http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/SourdoughPancakes.htm
I finally got around to making the sourdough pancakes from this recipe this morning. Turned our very nice. Only thing I would do differently is halve the recipe as it made a bit too much for just two of us (I think we ended up with 14 ranging in size from 5" to 7" diameter).
Will def put this on the weekend breakfast rotation.
Post by: Linea_Norway on October 10, 2020, 04:11:19 AM
After making a lot of sourdough breads earlier this year and having a learning process, I am now using this method:
- 1000 gram flour, existing of 50% plain white wheat flower, often 10% whole wheat grains and the rest finely or roughly ground wholegrain wheat and often 10% rye. Sometimes I use barley as well.
- 22 gram salt
- 700-800 ml/gram handwarm water
- Most of my starter, today 250 grams. The starter was taken out of the fridge and fed half a day before.
I mixed the dry ingredients well before adding the starter and the water. I use a solid handmixer to mix quite long until the dough is a thick, moist mass. Then I leave it in the bowl which is covered with plastic foil. Then I just leave it alone, no stretching and folding. After many hours the dough has poofed and fills the bowl. Then I find my two glass bread forms. I line them with a sheet of grease-free paper/baking paper. Then comes the most difficult part, dividing the dough into two halfs and dropping the halfs into each bread form. Difficult because the dough prefers to hang together. When done, I sprinkle some fine white flour on top of the doughs and cover the bread forms with plastic sheet. Ideally I cut with a sharp knife through the middle, but sometimes I forget and if the dough is moust enough, it doesn't seem to matter. Then I wait again until they have poofed a lot and then I put them in the oven. Like suggested by others, 15 minutes on 250C and 30 minutes on 210C. Then I cool them on a rack, preferably outside the form and outside the paper, so that any moist can escape.
This is a method with little fuss. I found the stretching and folding, as well as the shaping too much hassle with my breads. That was only easy that one time I made a plain white pizza dough. With wholegrain bread though, I never had a successful non-messy stretching action. Also, when shaping the dough, I needed to add so much flour, that it became a too solid bread. My method is inspired by the no-kneading bread culture. Although I do a lot of kneading in the beginning. But as soon as the long gluten chains have formed, I stop kneading. It works out just fine.
Today I am making breads with only wheat, again a mix of 50% white flour and 10% whole grains. The rest is finely ground wholegrain wheat flower. I am curious how that will taste compared to the rye that I usually add.
I can do the whole process in one day. It certainly helps that I don't work anymore and don't need to go to bed around 10 pm, like I used to.
Post by: windytrail on November 10, 2020, 04:30:41 PM
Great looking breads everyone! I've been practicing baking whole wheat sourdough since the pandemic began and am finally started to feel confident about the loafs. Image of today's bake is attached.
This recipe was about 70% whole wheat (high protein), 30% regular white flour.
I used the recipe here: https://www.homemadefoodjunkie.com/beginner-whole-wheat-artisan-sourdough-bread/ (https://www.homemadefoodjunkie.com/beginner-whole-wheat-artisan-sourdough-bread/). There is also an accompanying video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhjqwDPkm0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhjqwDPkm0&feature=youtu.be). It takes a bit longer than some other recipes but is well worth the effort.
The above recipe closely follows the method explained in the book Tartine Bread by Chad Robertson. The stretch and fold is performed five times over the course of two and a half hours.
Post by: LightTripper on November 10, 2020, 04:33:35 PM
Post by: Poundwise on November 13, 2020, 04:47:17 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on November 13, 2020, 05:06:46 PM
Any tips for getting old sourdough out of the glass mason jar? I didn't bake over the summer as it got too hot, so I had the starter sitting in the fridge, forgot about it, and now it has kind of fossilized. I tried to pry it out with a knife, but I couldn't make it budge. I may have to just throw out the jar and start completely over.
Best bet would be a long time soaking in very hot water.
Post by: monarda on November 13, 2020, 07:58:33 PM
Each week I make sourdough bagels, modified from the recipe from littlespoonfarm.com
I feed to wake up the starter on Thursday, feed again on Friday AM to 300g total, and once nice and poofy I use 250g in the recipe (remainder back to the jar), with 510g water, 20g salt, 80g sugar, then 1000g mixture of flours, usually 100g oatmeal, 150g whole wheat flour, remaining 750g white or bread flour. But an assortment of flour mixtures have always worked great. Then I let this rise, with a couple of folds throughout Friday evening, then overnight (all at room temp) for a total of 20-24 hours bulk rise. Saturday I preshape 80-85g balls, let rise for another hour, then poke holes to form bagels, boil 2' each side in molasses/salted water, and bake. Makes usually 21 bagels. Each week I play around with the temperature and baking time for the desired texture and crust, currently I'm liking 385F for about 25-30 minutes.
Post by: Poundwise on November 13, 2020, 08:58:03 PM
Any tips for getting old sourdough out of the glass mason jar? I didn't bake over the summer as it got too hot, so I had the starter sitting in the fridge, forgot about it, and now it has kind of fossilized. I tried to pry it out with a knife, but I couldn't make it budge. I may have to just throw out the jar and start completely over.
Best bet would be a long time soaking in very hot water.
Thanks, I guess it will come down to that. The starter is gross and moldy on top, but I guess I'll put it outside instead of in the sink, otherwise I'll have to deal with constant yells of horror from my family.
Post by: LightTripper on December 03, 2020, 05:12:51 PM
Post by: Calvin on December 07, 2020, 08:08:22 PM
This is one of my favorite sourdough recipes:
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/vermont-sourdough-recipe
I'll have to restart my sourdough starter. I bake a lot, but I'll usually either do a straight dough or start a pre-ferment/poolish the night before.
Post by: monarda on December 08, 2020, 07:27:43 AM
Post by: LightTripper on August 26, 2021, 07:03:04 AM
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Post by: Linea_Norway on September 08, 2021, 01:28:34 AM
My bread tastes good and has enough air bubbles. It has a core temperature of 92-95 C, which should mean that it is done.
I bake the bread in 2 glass containers, covered with paper baking sheets. I put a small bowl with boiling water in the oven when I put in the breads. When done, take immediately them out of the glass containers, tear off the baking sheets and let them cool down on a metal rack.
When I started with sourdough, I used very high temperatures. DH complained that the crust was too hard for his taste, so I have reduced tenperatures to 15 minutes on 220 C, followed by 30 minutes on 190 C. The core temperature is still 92 to 95 C and the bread is still the same.
The bread looks like it is moist. Also, if I stick in a thermometer, the thermometer does not come out clean, but something sticks to it. When baking cake, that is a trick of checking if a cake is done.
Is this moist a result of baking a bread in a glass container?
Is it the result of the boiling water that was added to the oven?
Do your breads seem humid?
Do I need to bake it longer and check for a higher core temperature?
Post by: GuitarStv on September 08, 2021, 07:12:28 AM
If you put the bread in a plastic bag or something that prevents moisture from escaping overnight, it won't be anywhere near as crusty the next day - maybe something to try for your crybaby husband, who appears to have been raised on wonderbread. :P
Post by: chaskavitch on September 08, 2021, 07:49:45 AM
Post by: monarda on September 08, 2021, 08:05:20 AM
Post by: LightTripper on September 08, 2021, 08:08:19 AM
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Post by: Linea_Norway on September 08, 2021, 11:54:22 AM
Post by: Linea_Norway on September 11, 2021, 01:09:50 AM
Post by: turketron on September 13, 2021, 03:13:24 PM
Post by: jeromedawg on May 27, 2022, 11:31:57 AM
https://hostessatheart.com/sourdough-bread-recipe/
I used 100G of whole wheat flour mixed with 400g of 'bread' flour (the high protein flour at TJs) instead of the 500g of bread flour the recipe calls for.
I used our Le Creuset Doufeu to bake btw
Results:
Loaf #1 - I proofed the dough in the oven overnight before baking in the AM. No real issues with this except I baked it too high at 475F and glossed over the part of the recipe that says to lower the heat to 425F hahaha. It worked out fine but was a bit more 'gummy' and dense. Pretty good rise and crumb though, especially in comparison to my prior attempts from a couple years back.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWgH9nk5HvY7IGPumsLm1U_LSyAVs-lTLFtSKQh8H6SZn08dQWW9VSWawl-UXd_H22LLxJQOlET9EPhIrnnbpObj8xtYKNIKShg-gyiHTATu3HlN-97rjmymnqj9ov69TnvcIfbq1no0SGYHryFgckzcg=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLUmh0Kzss-GJXSOvJGbSyJm2LDfHPbasrJObd61OmPy7YesVkTDx-OLZCWpNthW0IXtxhB_oF5RLOxsBlWCGnvkj3EwCjhbIfWRzHTqzsrlWjvu9GZhxyZNpxccriIVZv-Vq_0K94My05uxGCSQgsIvqQ=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
Loaf #2 - I tried cold proofing this in the fridge overnight after a shorter 3-4hr bulk ferment on the counter/oven. It looked great in the fridge except I didn't flour/dust the banneton well enough so removing it was a disaster. I had to refold/reshape the dough, dust the banneton better, and let it sit in the banneton for about 30 mins before placing it in the oven. The rise on this wasn't as good as the first (which I attribute to the banneton disaster and having to re-shape at the last hour) but I think the cold proof added a bit more fermentation as this loaf is slightly more sour.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLWHWFNoTB9ijbZIZHjAhAqLvaMcNsra4x8U4YARwjcbecx1VkY9ZQhERza0U9QL6TF84EssNqK9yFlvvDGkYd_5qyUolUMwAvL3CmmCqROiBQ41f3vGK3A-imdRrBVSZqawOa1NW8AtwjiDB9aY4d0Y1w=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLU693w2BZirr1bDiOvKEBRl_YmHvEQld2UdsY7pRV-O6XNEfYrqzqDDM05k7jgmISdS2zxuDwY70YpXLjz119e3P9exnyE_j0UFrJy2JDM4qeVH_wcLmhx_xB0i7Sc1nYf0MznJm08d0ebHNnCBrCKlCw=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
Post by: monarda on May 27, 2022, 12:56:39 PM
You all might like this book that a friend of mine wrote (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/dining/sourdough-by-science-karyn-lynn-newman.html).
Post by: LightTripper on May 30, 2022, 03:32:50 PM
Post by: GuitarStv on May 30, 2022, 03:33:31 PM
Post by: Linea_Norway on June 01, 2022, 02:59:29 AM
The first time using them, I left the cloth inside the basket and covered it with flour. I was running out of time and had to take the breads out of the baskets before they had poofed enough. They collapsed into a flat bread when taken out of the basket. According to fluffiness, they were like my old breads, not fluffy.
I have gone back to basic and studied lots of sourdough movies. One challenge it that most movies show bread with white dough. And I use as much wholegrain as I can. First I give the flour and water a rest before adding the yeast. I have dropped my "no dirty hands" method. Now I tear and fold the dough by hand many times. Although I still use the handmixer to stir in the starter. The dough seems really to hang together when shaping it.
The second time using the baskets, I took the cloth out of the baskets and added a lot of flour to the basket. Let it poof overnight in the fridge. When taking out, the dough was glued to the bottom of the basket and became a disaster like described above. It was still my best bread ever, apart from the shape. It was pretty fluffy.
To make it more difficult this morning, I am using an traditional type grain, called emmer (Triticum turgidum L. subsp. dicoccum), although I added a little traditional type wheat as well. I might need to bake them in the shape, as these old grains have less gluten than modern grain and might not keep their shape as well. I will check on the farmer's webside if they have some advise.
I think that keeping the cloth inside the poofing basket is the best method to take the dough out of it. The dough will fall out of the basket nicely and you can then carefully drag off the cloth. But ypu won't get the pretty pattern that the baskets have when using the cloth.
Post by: nereo on June 01, 2022, 04:21:27 AM
Post by: jeromedawg on June 01, 2022, 10:59:38 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/29csnne35Xpa-D5BgA0HatIZARlixIN1W6JCujqzAg2tZ611pv7dX7gqonLzMqiLj0GJg_aOr-YgF-84lfsDxPMKoDjcok2COavJo1Mfbb4J-OlI2u68DlG9MXj6aINhc1Sq5e3F6SmB0MQSP_RFqUtc4IWxvBK8l5LX2E4E2QLJzmCWaCVBcbW36Mt-YSE5ZnZmuR6C1BLvq6B1Reg4nbbPIddbv-9Q2u1jfcMMl-wGWyr-9aFGUAPV4S4UO-VjnB8h1DTeT2gFsHkGRSJbEiJq-lhiC0GxmNojQC6Yc_lVYv395B1HQMqlPvwt12uC6MXxFrQWxiSbRbiU8HUsb0SA3C2Twm9i84aXVkfAAtZnSrO2MOyrub55gAq7o48YQhqafNX3uWh-Y_E-MEW5Vbt53srpImNLckHo0hzb5kaFQF1USqNjJH_TKOCHNrjoOwcjQ16J0hdr_2p6TfNkISohg66WeCPCkHFMu6A0TMJ4g4jqAbJnf8cYPIWc7FR3Z9fU21vj1yG4DmXLjWQZ1eDvZ1p6jMWcPEXWMf2-2vSLJ32JlZOS15eEpQyNyb9YplpRF_Fl6DAxIuLEl-62meBsAzYpd2rlzbB_hvH2by9Tcmm-ERZwd307P4a6GkaxgMLe-MKl2tYPTMTZBTzQFoTMwoo6nUG9DCFhNPfkJc0i_b9Xa_bG37VyOciRDu3nLD7ilTgYE9yfYZphIQVwyrkdvacCgyQFHmCfaNVcK4kN0EUGVysp--PJT-79r6M2Ymt8r-7FOF0WdaZOsqtYfIeeH3rqNi7EP9EEK5bLL1l1aXLt8IcXt16Bi2xscOBZIrMqzkgzZChou5XsKjdynpsNybDa5gelRL4okVIqOa5kM40RNxN6r5CXoaKCpFirZYFWHn5Qqv6TAlNWP1Efq8BcqJu6GnJagKJt410cDJJ1WqVWJSc1=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2L2O9oW8YBJOIKG0kKCg_fyVU_1aQNzLPLbmCGfqUwcxFrK9t9MSSavPUG6le1vlEPsdiXS1Ij3d8vYgtWKH-sdgva2zfiuh858iKMJA8z39kO66NUfV2EE9iz23DbapB_Ib7pg8jeOHvby3d37PkVvHg_BNFhH0zHhCH5dbxMAJM8RsJgQYlheAC9jI-sU2v5ciR9hs_-CvG5NgeMU3jovJ2Jl-v9qOq8osbXftZ8Lq5oYw77QNsor5INIXJciDLz7WCFLu7rX8uFmFMDikxBZ0bbp-oVz1pB-BhVym94bvSBuu3kkSx_1uYl3V7Ckv0SAHazYPW_vAZcr4lor0OUDQUXd4jmDNXZ08j5CQpJi9iiPemAaHDfaVmPHPCHjLXaiK7EPW_wvElMqGjaacojeM8sGSeYTnz2c_F2NUKsYch9gP4b6f5eGPBiQXKW6nPoC8pbwpFjF5MBwKcg33YNqPLmhznJ25-mfa3uxplMNV0F9QhUGg_ImPQNBLCbu0jERqSoosJVn31kXBktqXlmpYN1G1e_HI8UhEYdMJk-9yh4ictUMfQIcZ_tDd03BVqlaUNkHwH9kJ4X_LqNhc2bo9qmQ02Bihdljkgt9scyJ_yZQIKDGx-bw0UK252nfVuOJdlaX-XFe4ys0kTk7KwncmXxqbnC5k8Xcu5mE4XeHcYnzLAa_h0FekyokQvEn64xxampBRekn_xYK7bV7M31-ET7Y1cZEC9XEPHXymfGflUmA5Wv5cqZPt4xWt9b0xiXz6XLqFR1yMdfcH38uDuqBbrymjiyWn84dNlBKz4wIZ3Rv9X7vwh6m3v6hYbrJ2WXGGzGmnGs_cleHC1OchgxaAuW0Ai99vQo6GyVyoL6C0MAw7dJfhk8WV6or40fB2_tVSuZdukzAPMds2bH1MhIvJB6HOG21FGCD1K7RNgjiArfJ0E2-n=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
(I do need to work on tucking and pinching off my folds a bit more haha)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bfv9K-wv4wAmJJxXsT-XyfLlXDmAHukB5gshrwJEGe0L7D9JtphLBvq-jGrkd27rnBVd-Wp1T1-r7RPM_8o-eODY0jveIxReTHFFnj73aVC_InEt6Pp2Pu7bXK5YYTp5sSPjnyEy0-cNe7aYkFOv6r_q5Kaf5XKti5S8hw6FAwxwJVJ6mMUa0k2xh21xsYkEucw878zEWaQdBMb58aXkd12h-1QsjLAc-3uDDWp9rJkC5V4xjaC6xp470LW4gKMHmmyfbBkpoIRTqkkhH01-lLcDxnrk71uinvTqXZjUOG4A31NToFkQNK1lqB8xwcNA3sBUShzFQDjZzVEaJrsdeONJZAwzFS9ujoswzczBPQZOe2TCU7Gxl4zB4ii6TUKUDAav2w0sAvtG-Gsy_fCcnYifrMsm5SQaC8XnAsHpEjpe8ErzfI8L6v_vvMF-n6_i1ypNjEPb73kV1hzoQGPfgK4iBCkdtKm2bD0BUn1tyKYORJ7z3HUIwWyQqr4SXkX7oxZ_bZ5MLHkfmL5ErUyIfjoYyJP4KSRer6p_HPQjs0goa70lah5rP3NUKod4a5P5c1ToF2hCfkuMt663ZjTXXffzJ1aU7MAu3xVjyDQ6FcJ4mHdY8o0WdueU-yYHNBk3YVIjrbjRbKxjnwVvokgn3MFfpIdM_4sJUVNBU-R75DeU1qRpp4Gj03VdnH4m3l6QUgA_d_3pyfRUXHEEW5i6OapReQaBJVPuqto5RJtl7VeRKRwU9iTtrTdOSiYbnXsTwg-xw9Ej5NPuXu8J3y2UH18ckFXScI7met60PZ1UCa2jzcgay6A_DJacDTzVXb6y47RFeBFkSr3yRS-4gRI3K7N--qCr9kf2hfG1SbNZO4CR3M5wVw8zeq4CXL2LJpKehYocWaMBIwcEqVunjbt8CFnpn71SkQfj_sjISgi766Zxulmwg06G=w3413-h1660-no?authuser=0)
I was patient with this and let it sit for roughly 2 hours before slicing it in half. The crumb developed very nicely (it was hard coming out of the oven and the steam I guess softened it up a bit from the inside while the outside is nice and crispy). This one, by far, has been the best flavor and texture wise. It is the most sour of all the loaves I've made as well. I'm thinking the increase in whole wheat flour AND feeding the starter more consistently with whole wheat flour played a large role in the overall sourness. I just ate a couple pieces now and am tempted for more but need to hold off until lunch: I've been on a caprese sandwich run (mozarella, basil, tomatoes, TJs garlic spread and a touch of olive oil/balsamic/pepper) as of late - hard to get tired of that but I'm sure I will eventually hahaha.