Author Topic: The sourdough thread  (Read 188131 times)

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #500 on: June 01, 2022, 02:59:29 AM »
I recentlig purchased a few baskets and have made a few breads since.

The first time using them, I left the cloth inside the basket and covered it with flour. I was running out of time and had to take the breads out of the baskets before they had poofed enough. They collapsed into a flat bread when taken out of the basket. According to fluffiness, they were like my old breads, not fluffy.

I have gone back to basic and studied lots of sourdough movies. One challenge it that most movies show bread with white dough. And I use as much wholegrain as I can. First I give the flour and water a rest before adding the yeast. I have dropped my "no dirty hands" method. Now I tear and fold the dough by hand many times. Although I still use the handmixer to stir in the starter. The dough seems really to hang together when shaping it.

The second time using the baskets, I took the cloth out of the baskets and added a lot of flour to the basket. Let it poof overnight in the fridge. When taking out, the dough was glued to the bottom of the basket and became a disaster like described above. It was still my best bread ever, apart from the shape. It was pretty fluffy.

To make it more difficult this morning, I am using an traditional type grain, called emmer (Triticum turgidum L. subsp. dicoccum), although I added a little traditional type wheat as well. I might need to bake them in the shape, as these old grains have less gluten than modern grain and might not keep their shape as well. I will check on the farmer's webside if they have some advise.

I think that keeping the cloth inside the poofing basket is the best method to take the dough out of it. The dough will fall out of the basket nicely and you can then carefully drag off the cloth. But ypu won't get the pretty pattern that the baskets have when using the cloth.

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #501 on: June 01, 2022, 04:21:27 AM »
PTF

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #502 on: June 01, 2022, 10:59:38 AM »
Latest loaf from this AM (mixed, stretched/folded yesterday and left to bulk ferment overnight... I think I went slightly over by probably an hour on the bulk ferment though... I woke up at around 6am for a work call and checked the dough - a lot of it was pressed up against the saran wrap. I had my call and almost an hour later it had deflated slightly. Temp downstairs was probably between 70-72F all night). This is a 40/60 combo of whole wheat flour (from Target) and strong flour (from Trader Joes):




(I do need to work on tucking and pinching off my folds a bit more haha)



I was patient with this and let it sit for roughly 2 hours before slicing it in half. The crumb developed very nicely (it was hard coming out of the oven and the steam I guess softened it up a bit from the inside while the outside is nice and crispy). This one, by far, has been the best flavor and texture wise. It is the most sour of all the loaves I've made as well. I'm thinking the increase in whole wheat flour AND feeding the starter more consistently with whole wheat flour played a large role in the overall sourness. I just ate a couple pieces now and am tempted for more but need to hold off until lunch: I've been on a caprese sandwich run (mozarella, basil, tomatoes, TJs garlic spread and a touch of olive oil/balsamic/pepper) as of late - hard to get tired of that but I'm sure I will eventually hahaha.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 11:03:34 AM by jeromedawg »

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #503 on: April 30, 2024, 11:44:14 AM »
Hi, I need some help, baking bread. So why not reopen this thread.
My problem is that my bread stays very moist after baking. This is both the case when baking sourdough or baking with normal dry yeast.

I typically use the following:
- 50-60% whole grain wheat flour, of which sometimes 10% spelt and/or 10% rye.
- 40-50% white wheat flour.
Since starting with sourdough baking, I tend to make a moist dough. Lately I used 80-90% water. If I use less water, the dough often has very dry areas.

The bread is baked in metal bread molds. I often bake 50-60 minutes on 374˚F / 190˚C, in a pre-warmed oven.
Lately I put it back into the oven for another half hour. It doesn't seem to get any less dry.

I have also tried to bake a bread for 40 minutes in the metal mold, and the remaining time without the mold.

Do you have any advise on what to try next?

My current theory is that I use too much water and that the oven gets saturated with water damp. Then I can bake the bread as much as I want, but it will not loose the moist.

Earlier, I always put a bowl of hot water in the oven during the entire bake. But today I baked without a bowl of water with exactly the same result.

monarda

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #504 on: April 30, 2024, 09:33:42 PM »
With moisture that high, I think you need to bake at a much higher temperature. Certainly over 400F.
What is the inside temperature of the loaf when you remove it from the oven? Is it over 90C?

sparkytheop

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #505 on: April 30, 2024, 11:48:24 PM »
I don't know what recipe you use, but my sourdough gets baked at 475 °F for 45 minutes when I use a soaked clay baker, 450 when I use a dutch oven.  It's also recommended that you take the temperature of the bread, and aim for at least 210 °F before taking it out of the oven.

Do you have a gas or electric oven?

ROF Expat

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #506 on: May 01, 2024, 01:21:01 AM »
@Linea_Norway

When you say your bread is very moist, am I correct in assuming that the interior is gummy and dense? 

Also, is this a "no-knead" dough? 

My first recommendation is that you drop the hydration of your dough to about 74% if you are making "no knead" bread and around 65% if you knead.  You are starting off with an unnecessary challenge by using a very high hydration dough.  Yes, you can use an 80 or 90% dough, but making that choice will make almost everything else more difficult.  If you are getting dry areas in your dough at lower hydration, the problem is that the dough is not being mixed properly, not that it is too low hydration.  Be sure you mix very thoroughly, especially if the bread is no knead. 

How big are your loaves?  It can be challenging to cook the interior of a large loaf before the outside is overcooked.  If your loaf is a kilo, try making two 500g loaves.  I think it is good to limit the size of your loaf to around 600 grams. 

I would limit my use of water to pouring in 200 ml or so right after you put the bread into the preheated oven.  This will make a burst of steam that will rapidly transfer heat into the crust.  Keeping water in the oven for the whole bake means you are steaming your bread rather than baking it. 

Choosing to make your loaf up to 60% whole grain or flours that don't rise as well or as quickly (like rye and spelt) also introduces some challenges.  Is your 40-50% white wheat flour all purpose flour?  If so, try replacing it with strong flour/bread flour.  The higher gluten content should help you get a stronger rise and airier crumb.  And be sure you are getting a good rise in your dough before you put it in the oven.  Do you use a baking stone or steel?  The rapid heat transfer (like the steam) will help you get good oven spring which should help. 

If you want to experiment, I would start with just one or two changes.  Try using your normal dough recipe (very well mixed), changing it only to be either 65 or 74% hydration for kneaded/no knead as appropriate.  Be sure to allow enough time for a good rise.  I'd allow a bulk rise until I see the dough roughly double in size.  Then, shape/gluten cloak into 500g boules (no bigger for the experiment) and have a second rise.  Then, score the boules and bake at 450F for about 35 minutes and nicely browned on the outside (on a baking stone if you have one).    Use only the 200ml of water at the beginning for steam. 

See what kind of results you get with just the lower hydration, 500g boule, higher temp, and short steam.  This won't even require a trip to the store and should show you a significantly different result.  If it still doesn't give you the result you want, you can try changing other variables like introducing the higher protein bread flour.  I would recommend trying this the first time with commercial yeast rather than sourdough/levain so you can have a result in just a few hours.  If you try this, let me know the results. 

Good luck! 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 01:30:56 AM by ROF Expat »

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #507 on: May 01, 2024, 02:03:52 AM »
Thanks for your answers.

@monarda
I sometimes measure the inside temperature of the bread. It is usually around 97˚C / 206.6˚F.
DH doesn't like the very crispy crust you get when you bake it at very high temperatures. Therefore I bake it at a much lower temp than the usual sourdough bakers do. That should work if it is baked longer.

@sparkytheop
I use an electric oven with a fan.
The times that I mearured the inside temp and left it in the oven until 98˚C, the moist didn't disappear. But your 210˚F is 98,8˚C, so I should aim for 99˚C.

@ROF Expat
It is not a no-knead dough. I knead very well, by using a strong hand mixer and mix for at least 10 minutes. I also shape the loaves afterwards by stretching and folding. Lately when trying to make improvements, I made bread with 100% wheat (still 50% wholegrain) and then I noticed the dough was getting much firmer during the kneading. Especially when I only mixed flour and water first and left it for an hour. Kneading in the salt and later the yeast after that hour had past. That was a method described in a sourdough book. So it is not (only) the lack of firmness. It happens both with firm and less firm breads.

My loaves are 500-550 gram flour. I use normal Norwegian baking flour which has a pretty high gluten percent. I could use typo 0 or 00 flour, but that is less healthy as those contain only 40% of the whole grain. The flour I use has 85% or so of the whole grain. I think there is no point in making the perfect bread using only white, unhealthy flour.

Today when baking, I put the bowl of water in the oven, but removed it after 20 minutes or so, slipping out the moist as well.

I don't use 60% rye or spelt, but I might have used up,to 30-40% together. Usually I only use 10-20% spelt or rye. But I know I get better results (bread with more air bubbles) by using wheat. The humidity problem is also there when I only use wheat.

I always do the second rise in the bread molds, but depending on how firm the dough is, it will cascade over the sides of the mold. So often the bread is put into the oven prematurely, before it goes out of the baking molds. But yesterday I baked a fruit bread that was puffed for a long time and became a very open bread. Still, it was very moist inside.

I do not use a stone or a steel, but I have metal bread molds that are not preheated. Maybe I should try making some not-sourdough bread without any molds. Just right on a metal baking tray, like I used to do in the past. Alternative is making sourdough with puffing baskets, but I find that more hassle. And they tend to collapse as well.

Next time, I will mix the dough much longer with lower hydration and not add more water. I will use only wheat flour and measure the inside temperature after baking until it is 99˚C. I will do the latter also with the bread that is currently in the oven.

Thanks for all your inputs. I sounds like the end temperature is too low, so I should bake it longer, and measure. And my dough has too high hydration.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #508 on: May 01, 2024, 02:51:01 AM »
I have measured my current bread inside temperature. Still not at 99˚C/210˚F. In 10 minutes, I need to leave the house for several hours, so that is the extra time it gets. It has already been in the oven for more than half an hour longer than I usually bake.
Conclusion so far: I have never baked a bread with so high hydration anywhere near long enough.

ROF Expat

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #509 on: May 01, 2024, 06:56:23 AM »
Since you are kneading your dough,  I think if you cut back to 65% hydration, that alone will resolve your moisture problem.  At that hydration, I think you may also find that an internal temperature of 190F is sufficient and you don't need the higher temperature to dry things out.  Some bakers prefer to bake breads with whole wheat to a higher temperature, but I think that is a matter of taste.  I would still recommend baking at a temperature of about 450F.  If you want to avoid a crispy crust, after baking, let the bread cool to room temperature and then put it in a plastic bag for a few hours.  The moisture inside the bread will soften the crust.     

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #510 on: May 01, 2024, 01:39:58 PM »
Today's bread that I measured it's temperature, baked for a very long time. I still had to take it out when leaving the house. The result was a bread with an extremely thick crust, difficult to cut with a bread knife. So just baking longer isn't the only answer.

Next bread: less water.

ChickenStash

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #511 on: May 01, 2024, 03:34:20 PM »
You mentioned an electric oven with a fan so I'm assuming a convection oven? I haven't had much luck using my convection oven setting when doing bread. I don't bake bread very often so I'm not even remotely an expert, but when I used the convection fan I wound up with a crust that was way too thick/tough by the time the innards were properly done. I had to go fanless at a traditional baking temp to get a more normal crust texture.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #512 on: May 02, 2024, 10:04:37 AM »
You mentioned an electric oven with a fan so I'm assuming a convection oven? I haven't had much luck using my convection oven setting when doing bread. I don't bake bread very often so I'm not even remotely an expert, but when I used the convection fan I wound up with a crust that was way too thick/tough by the time the innards were properly done. I had to go fanless at a traditional baking temp to get a more normal crust texture.

I am not sure what a convection oven is. But it is electric and has an optional fan in the back which can circulate the air. Apart from that I can warm up the top and the bottom of the oven, or not. I usually use both the heat from the oven itself, plus the fan.
The fan is said to give a good effect on baking, but makes the oven about 20˚C warmer.

ChickenStash

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #513 on: May 02, 2024, 11:32:13 AM »
You mentioned an electric oven with a fan so I'm assuming a convection oven? I haven't had much luck using my convection oven setting when doing bread. I don't bake bread very often so I'm not even remotely an expert, but when I used the convection fan I wound up with a crust that was way too thick/tough by the time the innards were properly done. I had to go fanless at a traditional baking temp to get a more normal crust texture.

I am not sure what a convection oven is. But it is electric and has an optional fan in the back which can circulate the air. Apart from that I can warm up the top and the bottom of the oven, or not. I usually use both the heat from the oven itself, plus the fan.
The fan is said to give a good effect on baking, but makes the oven about 20˚C warmer.

Sounds like the same thing - an oven that has a fan to keep the hot air circulating during baking. Just a data point, but I had hard crust issues using the fan compared to fanless.

GuitarStv

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #514 on: May 02, 2024, 12:13:20 PM »
You mentioned an electric oven with a fan so I'm assuming a convection oven? I haven't had much luck using my convection oven setting when doing bread. I don't bake bread very often so I'm not even remotely an expert, but when I used the convection fan I wound up with a crust that was way too thick/tough by the time the innards were properly done. I had to go fanless at a traditional baking temp to get a more normal crust texture.

I am not sure what a convection oven is. But it is electric and has an optional fan in the back which can circulate the air. Apart from that I can warm up the top and the bottom of the oven, or not. I usually use both the heat from the oven itself, plus the fan.
The fan is said to give a good effect on baking, but makes the oven about 20˚C warmer.

Sounds like the same thing - an oven that has a fan to keep the hot air circulating during baking. Just a data point, but I had hard crust issues using the fan compared to fanless.

Yeah, me too.  I always turn the convection fan off when cooking bread - haven't had good results with it on.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #515 on: May 04, 2024, 09:51:46 AM »
Yesterday afternoon I made a new sourdough dough with 1 kg flour (50% wholegrain, 50% white), only wheat. And I used less than 700 ml water, so about 65% humidity. In addition to the fluid in the sourdough starter.

It got blended very well and became a nice and smooth dough. I stretched it many times like I usually do. Than, when it started to rise, it was bed time, so I put the bowl in the fridge. Today I rose very well in the living room. The loaves were easy to work with.

I left everything the same as usual, only less water. It is now standing in the turned-off oven for the second rise, in the metal bread molds. I will use the usual temperature, just to see the effect.

monarda

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #516 on: May 04, 2024, 09:57:08 AM »
Two loaves? An experiment!

Try one at the usual temperature with fan,
and try the other at 20C higher with no fan.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #517 on: May 04, 2024, 02:50:50 PM »
The result: it is less wet as usual, but still a little bit sticky. Otherwise a very light weight bread that kept it's shape while rising. Next time: a higher temperature.

diapasoun

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #518 on: June 18, 2024, 03:28:43 PM »
How have your bread experiments gone, Linea?

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #519 on: June 30, 2024, 07:54:05 AM »
How have your bread experiments gone, Linea?

@diapasoun
Sorry for the late reply.
Since last time, I got a book from the library and practised new techniques. The book uses a lot less water than I used to do, about 50% less. Also, they bake sourdough a lot faster than I do.
From the book I relearned that autolyse (mixing only water and flour) is a thing. But you can also do it too long. It also had som more advanced techniques with very hot water for a small portion of the dough.

My first attempts of sourdough bread after reading the book had a very good substance. I only need to figure out the oven temperature, as that didn't match the recipies at all. The oven is not evenly warmed. The book suggesred to put a flat stone in the oven (I have one from an old stone grill). And bake the bread on the lowest rack.
Since then I have been on a week and a half vacation without baking bread. My plan is to bake today or tomorrow if time allows. The starter is ready, now fed with both rye and wheat.
The freezer is full of bread, as I baked several. So I also needed to pause it a bit to not get too many breads.

I got almost tempted to buy an advanced kneading machine.  Butt that would become my third kitchen machine device, not couting the stick blender. And the best option to buy is very expensive and ways a lot (22 kg). So I'Ll co tinue with my hand mixer. I asked ChatGPT whether it was a good idea to knead fo hand with my artrosis hands and swollen finger joints. I got a very balanced answer, telling me to only start with warmed up hands and stopping when it hurts.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 08:37:17 AM by Linea_Norway »

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #520 on: July 01, 2024, 10:35:12 AM »
My last bread, baked this morning turned out pretty good. Altough it had a very crispy crust.
Last night, I had to prioritize sleep instead of waiting for the dough to poof enough in the molds. So I put the molds in the fridge overnight. Next morning, I had them for a while in the oven on 30°C. And then I baked them.
A bit too late I remembered having to make cuts, so I did that after baking for 5 min or so.

I think the crispiness was because I could have baked it 5 min shorter. The high perventage of rye might also have played a role. Also, I should have covered the molds with plastic in the fridge. But all in all it was a good bread.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2024, 02:18:38 AM by Linea_Norway »

diapasoun

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #521 on: July 01, 2024, 05:39:09 PM »
It sounds like you've had some real successes -- that's great!