Author Topic: The sourdough thread  (Read 188127 times)

turketron

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #350 on: April 21, 2020, 06:30:45 AM »
I've been cutting the parchment into a circle that fits in the inside diameter of my dutch oven, so there's no folds/pleats coming up the sides of the pot. I've been able to re-use the same piece for a few bakes in a row, and then I use the existing circle to trace a new round one once it's past the point of re-use.

LightTripper

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #351 on: April 21, 2020, 06:39:43 AM »
I just flour the inside of mine and it never seems to stick (it's a big casserole dish... Enamel on the inside). Would that work for you?

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #352 on: April 22, 2020, 01:01:38 PM »
I've been cutting the parchment into a circle that fits in the inside diameter of my dutch oven, so there's no folds/pleats coming up the sides of the pot. I've been able to re-use the same piece for a few bakes in a row, and then I use the existing circle to trace a new round one once it's past the point of re-use.

I was thinking about this! Thanks for doing and confirming it - I'll probably do that moving forward :)

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #353 on: April 23, 2020, 05:54:13 AM »
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #354 on: April 23, 2020, 06:25:43 AM »
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.

I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake.  The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.

robartsd

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #355 on: April 23, 2020, 11:38:03 AM »
It takes much more energy to evaporate water than it does to raise the temperature of cold water to boiling (or even melt ice), so the temperature of the water used will not make a large difference.

Boiling water (100 C) to water vapor (100 C): 2256 J/g
Cold water (0 C) to water vapor (100 C): 4.187 J/g/C * 100 C + 2256 J/g = 2674.7 J/g (18.5% more energy)
Ice (0 C) to water vapor (100 C): 334 J/g + 4.187 J/g/C * 100 C + 2256 J/g = 3008.7 J/g (33.4% more energy)

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/water-thermal-properties-d_162.html

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #356 on: April 25, 2020, 12:50:25 PM »
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.

I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake.  The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.


Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).

BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 01:07:31 PM by jeromedawg »

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #357 on: April 25, 2020, 02:30:43 PM »
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.

I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake.  The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.


Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).

BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?

Letting the dough rise outside the fridge really helps. Using at least 50% white flour helps as well. During my last breads, I mixed it for a long time after putting together all ingredients. I think that also helped.

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #358 on: April 25, 2020, 04:29:30 PM »
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.
@jeromedawg
If your added water cools down your oven, when add boiling water. I put boiling water in an oven tray on the bottom of the oven. That works well.
Strangely enough, my DH has heard in earlier years that bakers use water with ice cubes in them. But I read or heard somewhere in sourdough land that you should use boiling water.

I have used both boiling water and water straight from tap and haven't really noticed any difference in the crusts or final bake.  The pan I use in bottom of oven is at oven temperature before I add water so the water doesn't stay in liquid form for very long.


Interesting. Maybe I'll try boiling water next time. Although, not sure what the major differences are baking bread in a doufeu where there's water on the lid versus 'steaming' with a pan in the oven under to on the side of the bread. Also, I was somehow under the impression that when baking in a dutch oven using a steaming tray that's outside the dutch oven doesn't really make a big impact since any moisture is already trapped inside the dutch oven, presumably from the dough, to begin with. I've seen someone on youtube recommend using a tray with water to steam when using a baking/pizza stone (covered with an inverted bowl).

BTW: question regarding bulk fermentation. I bulk fermented in the fridge overnight and didn't really see a notable rise in volume. Before I put in the fridge, I had folded it about 4 times at 30 minute intervals after initially mixing everything together (this was 2-3 hours up until going into the fridge). There were definitely a few more bubbles that had formed overnight though. I'm now letting the dough sit outside the fridge on the counter at room temp/slightly warmer, hoping that it'll increase in volume. Is this OK and should I expect any increase? Or does it sound like I'mpretty much at a 'dead end' as far as any more volume? The dough smells slightly more sour vs last night, which is a good sign. But I've just been having trouble with getting my dough to rise. Is it likely just that my starter isn't very good and perhaps I should work on improving that?

Letting the dough rise outside the fridge really helps. Using at least 50% white flour helps as well. During my last breads, I mixed it for a long time after putting together all ingredients. I think that also helped.

Can you proof dough outside of the fridge to get it to rise a bit more, then pop it into the fridge to slow down the rise and allow fermentation?

EDIT: I ended up putting one bowl of the proofing dough in the oven and it rose considerably. I took it out and popped it in the fridge to slow it down. I still had the second bowl in the fridge so ended up moving that to the oven to allow to rise as well and will pop it back in the fridge after it gets a little more rise. Hopefully these things won't deflate in the fridge or after I pull them out to bake tomorrow morning.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 08:22:36 PM by jeromedawg »

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #359 on: April 26, 2020, 10:19:35 AM »
So I have the loaves in the oven now. Both of them kind of deflated on me as soon as I scored them before popping them in the oven :( We'll see how they turn out in a few. I'm testing out a new 4qt Staub I got a great deal on ($75-80 off Amazon) - I traced the dutch oven bottoms onto parchment paper and the paper fits perfect. Except on the 4qt it's a very tight squeeze so I ended up plopping the dough in and it kinda hit and stuck to the side a bit :( Gonna have to probably do even smaller loaves in that one. Or maybe cut the circle slightly bigger so I have more control lowering it in - there's barely enough clearance with 400-500g of dough.

Anyway, let's see how this next set comes out....

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #360 on: April 26, 2020, 10:59:07 AM »
Yea, same as before - not much rise and kind of a thick/chewy crust. Bottom got scorched too. Wasn't impressed with the turnout this time around. Also baked these in a new oven range too, so that'll take some time getting used to. It runs much hotter than the previous oven so I'll need to play around and figure the temps out a bit. I'm going to guess that the prior oven's temps were off by a minus 15-25F on average - that was one of the issues we were having with it. I think probably poor/degraded insulation must have been a factor. Funny part is I got used to cooking with that 'crutch' hahaha.

Anyway, I think the other problem was that I don't believe my dough was really shaped that well. I'm still having trouble figuring out the shaping part of all this. Maybe I'm using too wet of dough? But I keep it around 76-78%.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #361 on: April 26, 2020, 12:47:02 PM »
For each batch that is not perfect, adjust one thing in the process and try again. After 8 or so batches, my bread really started to become decent.

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #362 on: April 26, 2020, 01:13:56 PM »
For each batch that is not perfect, adjust one thing in the process and try again. After 8 or so batches, my bread really started to become decent.

I think this time around I let it proof for too long. Or I should have done one more stretch & fold before a *final* proof

geekette

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #363 on: April 26, 2020, 01:42:19 PM »
I’m finding it frustra...er, a steep learning curve as well. This time I managed to find some whole wheat flour and made a loaf with 350 gr bread flour, 50 grams of whole wheat, and I swear too much water. Gloopy, stuck to everything, and regardless of the incredible amount of flour I used on the tea towel, it really stuck to that...

But, hey, I didn’t have to score it because the top ripped off when I turned it out onto the parchment. And it rose like a champ.

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #364 on: April 26, 2020, 01:57:43 PM »
I’m finding it frustra...er, a steep learning curve as well. This time I managed to find some whole wheat flour and made a loaf with 350 gr bread flour, 50 grams of whole wheat, and I swear too much water. Gloopy, stuck to everything, and regardless of the incredible amount of flour I used on the tea towel, it really stuck to that...

But, hey, I didn’t have to score it because the top ripped off when I turned it out onto the parchment. And it rose like a champ.

Would love to get your method/recipe particularly for bulk fermentation, resting and proofing times. I must be doing something seriously wrong there or my starter is not 'good enough' - I haven't been able to come close to getting a rise like that no matter what I do.

geekette

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #365 on: April 26, 2020, 02:15:59 PM »
It's pretty much this one (although hers doesn't stick to everything!)

I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge.  I swear she must be showing a double batch there.  I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.

Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough.  Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.

I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven.  Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway.  But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these crackers with the discard (using rosemary).

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #366 on: April 26, 2020, 02:20:23 PM »
It's pretty much this one (although hers doesn't stick to everything!)

I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge.  I swear she must be showing a double batch there.  I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.

Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough.  Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.

I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven.  Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway.  But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these crackers with the discard (using rosemary).

Thank you SO MUCH for that recipe!  They look delish.  I'm getting tired of waffles and crumpets, and of tossing so much leftover starter, and my husband and toddler LOVE crackers of every sort.  I'm so excited!

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #367 on: April 26, 2020, 03:52:29 PM »
It's pretty much this one (although hers doesn't stick to everything!)

I don't have rice flour, and mine rises in a 2 quart measuring cup and only gets to 1 quart after rising overnight in the fridge.  I swear she must be showing a double batch there.  I also found the recipe hard to follow because it's spread out, although the compact form is at the end, it refers to videos and such further up on the page.

Judging by the comments, I'm not the only one struggling with the wet dough.  Next time I'll try 280g water to 400g flour.

I just have a borrowed 3.5q dutch oven.  Of course the Lodge Dutch oven I think I want is out of stock, parchment paper is out of stock, and I can only eat so much bread anyway.  But even if I don't make bread often, I'll keep making these crackers with the discard (using rosemary).


Haha that's the recipe I initially used (and posted here too) - it's the one I've been going back to. Part of it too is that I'm doubling the amounts so there may be some variation. I think I need to work on my starter a little more though as well as the final shaping.

LightTripper

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #368 on: April 26, 2020, 04:32:05 PM »
Well this one was very nearly a disaster but came out pretty well. I tried to make it on a working day which is usually a mistake as I ignore it during the bulk fermentation, and it was really not holding shape when I came to shape it, and was also a bit too wet. Anyway, I decided to just chuck out the rule book and re-knead it and it seemed to do the trick. Hasn't risen as well as sometimes, but the shape held and got a decent structure inside.

My feel for how the dough should feel/behave is definitely improving a bit with practice, and I think heading off some disappointments.

geekette

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #369 on: April 27, 2020, 04:38:09 PM »
That looks gorgeous, @LightTripper

@jeromedawg, I wonder if mine rose more just because I'm using a smaller vessel (3.5qt).  Still seems lacking in the flavor department.

I do love these crackers though.  This is half a batch from the recipe above.  My first time with some whole wheat added to the mix, and I used an Italian herb mix.  Still prefer rosemary, but these are destined for someone who doesn't care for rosemary.

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #370 on: April 28, 2020, 10:57:50 AM »
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make?  My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly. 

GuitarStv

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #371 on: April 28, 2020, 11:35:42 AM »
Sourdough is typically a bit denser bread.  Soft and fluffy typically needs proper yeast or soda as leavener.

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #372 on: April 28, 2020, 12:42:56 PM »
Sourdough is typically a bit denser bread.  Soft and fluffy typically needs proper yeast or soda as leavener.

Thanks, I guess that makes sense.  Good thing I have like 3 cups of yeast in my freezer :)

Dogastrophe

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #373 on: April 28, 2020, 12:46:57 PM »
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make?  My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.

I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with.  I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.

I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend.  I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf.  I used melted butter and 2% milk. 

geekette

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #374 on: April 28, 2020, 01:31:49 PM »
This one uses starter for flavor and a bit of yeast for poof - Beginner Sourdough Sandwich Loaf.

Haven't used it, but considering it, since I need sandwich bread.

Dogastrophe

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #375 on: April 28, 2020, 04:17:53 PM »
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make?  My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.

I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with.  I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.

I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend.  I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf.  I used melted butter and 2% milk.

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/

This is the other one I use.  I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #376 on: April 28, 2020, 04:22:39 PM »
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make?  My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.

I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with.  I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.

I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend.  I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf.  I used melted butter and 2% milk.

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/

This is the other one I use.  I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.

Thanks!

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #377 on: May 02, 2020, 03:00:20 PM »
Does anyone have a good "sandwich" bread they make?  My DH would love some more square shaped, less dense (?) loaves for sandwiches, but I can't seem to get loaves in my loaf pan to rise correctly.

I have one for a white bread that I've been happy with.  I'll track recipe down this evening and will post.

I made a loaf of this one (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sandwich-bread-recipe) on the weekend.  I rushed it and didn't get the rise I wanted on final proof but it did make a nice loaf.  I used melted butter and 2% milk.

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/basic-homemade-bread/

This is the other one I use.  I cut the flour back a bit and, depending on the day, I alter the water, and play with the proofing times.

Thanks!

I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far.  Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice.  I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that.  It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast.  DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)

I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter.  I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well. 

ETA - sorry for the giant picture! 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 03:04:06 PM by chaskavitch »

turketron

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #378 on: May 03, 2020, 10:24:33 AM »
I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far.  Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice.  I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that.  It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast.  DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)

I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter.  I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well. 

ETA - sorry for the giant picture!

Oooo, looks good! Might have to try a sandwich loaf next. Which recipe did you use? There are two linked in the conversation you quoted.

chaskavitch

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #379 on: May 03, 2020, 10:29:41 AM »
I made this bread today, and it's the closest to store-bought sandwich bread I've come so far.  Light and fluffy, tasty, thinnish crust that's slighty crispy yet easy to slice.  I probably should have let it rise for a few more minutes before I popped it in the oven, but I'm perpetually impatient with that.  It will be perfect for sandwiches for our kids, and for being delicious toast.  DH will need two sandwiches, but that's only my problem because I'll have to make bread more often :)

I also love that I can use up a bunch of starter.  I only had ~ 1/3 the recommended active starter, but I had some in the fridge waiting to be made into crumpets, so I added that in to make weight, and it turned out well. 

ETA - sorry for the giant picture!

Oooo, looks good! Might have to try a sandwich loaf next. Which recipe did you use? There are two linked in the conversation you quoted.

Whoops!  I used the Taste of Home recipe.  The other one is a regular yeasted bread, no sourdough involved.  The one I used called for 1.5 tsp yeast and 400g sourdough starter (or an equivalent weight in equal amounts of flour and water, if you don't have quite that much). 

imadandylion

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #380 on: May 05, 2020, 11:17:08 AM »
I made my first sourdough loaf over the weekend. Mistakes were made:



1. I used 110 degree water to mix the dough like I would with active dry yeast. I think this may have weakened my starter since the micro-organisms are probably not used to that... I think I probably should have stuck to somewhere between 70-85 degrees...?
2. I didn't see any warnings or didn't know that the dough is supposed to be very wet (I blame the bad instructions on the recipe I used, lol), so when I tried to knead it, I added flour. Oops... Also, I probably shouldn't have tried to knead it how I would with 'normal' bread anyway.
3. I underbaked it with time and possibly temperature (450 F and then 400 F), so it came out a bit gummy even though I let it cool for a really long time. Also, I think my dutch oven lost heat because while I was trying to slash the bread, I took a few minutes too long because the knife wasn't very sharp.
4. The recipe called for bread flour I think so I don't know if that changed anything.

I let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature before baking and it didn't double... It barely got any bigger even though it was quite warm... I was expecting a dense bread due to the mistakes so I was surprised to see any holes. Overall, it did taste good and all and it wasn't a bad experiment, but I can't wait to try it again this week! I also got rye flour and whole wheat berries so I'm excited to feed those to my starter and see how it changes. Next time I want to do a rye/whole wheat/all-purpose flour mix.

I also used sourdough discard in banana bread and it was very good, but I wasn't trying to let it ferment the batter or anything. Next up: Sourdough pancakes!

Dogastrophe

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #381 on: May 05, 2020, 11:32:28 AM »
I made my first sourdough loaf over the weekend. Mistakes were made:



1. I used 110 degree water to mix the dough like I would with active dry yeast. I think this may have weakened my starter since the micro-organisms are probably not used to that... I think I probably should have stuck to somewhere between 70-85 degrees...?
2. I didn't see any warnings or didn't know that the dough is supposed to be very wet (I blame the bad instructions on the recipe I used, lol), so when I tried to knead it, I added flour. Oops... Also, I probably shouldn't have tried to knead it how I would with 'normal' bread anyway.
3. I underbaked it with time and possibly temperature (450 F and then 400 F), so it came out a bit gummy even though I let it cool for a really long time. Also, I think my dutch oven lost heat because while I was trying to slash the bread, I took a few minutes too long because the knife wasn't very sharp.
4. The recipe called for bread flour I think so I don't know if that changed anything.

I let it rise for 24 hours at room temperature before baking and it didn't double... It barely got any bigger even though it was quite warm... I was expecting a dense bread due to the mistakes so I was surprised to see any holes. Overall, it did taste good and all and it wasn't a bad experiment, but I can't wait to try it again this week! I also got rye flour and whole wheat berries so I'm excited to feed those to my starter and see how it changes. Next time I want to do a rye/whole wheat/all-purpose flour mix.

I also used sourdough discard in banana bread and it was very good, but I wasn't trying to let it ferment the batter or anything. Next up: Sourdough pancakes!

My $0.02:
1. Because the bulk fermentation can take 3 to 4 hours, I generally don't worry too much about the water temperature.  I flip the tap on and get my water.  I do a final proof in fridge overnight (8 - 12 hours)
2. Wetness (hydration level) is recipe specific - some will be very wet and lend themselves to a stretch and fold method rather than kneading. If dough is sticky, resist urge to add flour.  The dough will happily accept it.  Instead keep kneading it and it will come around.  Take a look at videos 84, 88, and 131 on kneading techniques https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bake+with+jack+sourdough+kneading
3. Can't help with this one - I don't use a dutch oven. 
4. What is the protein % of your flour?

imadandylion

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #382 on: May 05, 2020, 11:49:41 AM »
@Dogastrophe  Thanks for the videos. I watched 88 before but not the other ones listed. I think I need a dough scraper like that. I was trying to use my hands and constantly had to rewet them. Oh also, at some point I got frustrated and threw it into my stand mixer for like 10 minutes, thinking it would toughen it up like a 'normal' dough, lol, then I returned it into a bowl and this some intermittent folds. I attempted to use an icing spatula, but it just wasn't the same. Good to know about the water, one less thing to worry about. The bread flour I used is 12.7% protein.

Dogastrophe

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #383 on: May 05, 2020, 12:04:37 PM »
@Dogastrophe  Thanks for the videos. I watched 88 before but not the other ones listed. I think I need a dough scraper like that. I was trying to use my hands and constantly had to rewet them. Oh also, at some point I got frustrated and threw it into my stand mixer for like 10 minutes, thinking it would toughen it up like a 'normal' dough, lol, then I returned it into a bowl and this some intermittent folds. I attempted to use an icing spatula, but it just wasn't the same. Good to know about the water, one less thing to worry about. The bread flour I used is 12.7% protein.

Your flour protein is good so you can rule that out.

The first few times I made bread I had enough dough stuck to my fingers that it looked like I was making corndogs.  Now that I figured out a technique that works for me I have very little issue. A small amount of olive oil on hands works well too.

I've been trying to find a good plastic scraper locally buy haven't had much luck.  I have a bench scraper that I use to divide dough but it is a bit overkill at times for bringing it all back together when kneading. I've used a rubber spatula head in the past with mixed results.

Linea_Norway

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #384 on: May 06, 2020, 04:04:40 AM »
I am done kneading sourdough with my hand. At first, when I mix it together, I use a handmixer. Then I leave it in the bowl, covered with plastic, to poof. After many hours, I use a rubber spatula to tear the sides of the dough up and fold the over the rest, a couple of times. Then I divide the dough in half, using the spatula, and dump the halfs in their form, which is lined with baking parchment. I cover it with plastic, often after I put some flour over the doughs. I use the spatula to make the dough even. Then it poofs again for many hours, often overnight, and then I bake it.
This all worked better than when I used my hands.

LightTripper

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #385 on: May 06, 2020, 08:03:49 AM »
Feeling happy with the look of this one!!

My small bugbear is it kind of flipped on its way into the casserole, so the lines from the banneton ended up on the bottom. Anybody got any good tips for avoiding that?

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #386 on: May 07, 2020, 12:18:40 AM »
Quick question for you guys regarding retarding your dough in the fridge. I shaped mine earlier this afternoon after bulk fermenting it last night and most of the day. After getting some tension on it, I popped it into the 'shaping' [mixing] bowls and have them in the fridge to finish proofing. Question is this - tomorrow before I bake should I take the bowls out and let the dough sit *in the bowls* on the counter until they get to room temp or close? Or should remove the dough from the bowls, score, and then let sit to get to room temp before popping them in the oven? Last couple times I've just been scoring the dough right out of the fridge and immediately popping into the dutch oven - haven't gotten very good rise which is the latest thing I've been working to improve. I just read somewhere that it might be a good idea to let the dough get to room temp before popping in the oven. Is that likely why my loaves aren't rising or getting very good oven spring? What I'm afraid of with removing from fridge and scoring then letting sit out is that the loaves will lose their shape. Conversely, I can let them come to room temp in the bowls but I've found it *much* easier to score dough cleaner when it's cold just because things are tightened up so much.

GuitarStv

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #387 on: May 07, 2020, 07:44:15 AM »
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking.  In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.

jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #388 on: May 07, 2020, 10:29:55 AM »
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking.  In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.

Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?

I currently have another couple loaves in the oven and they don't appear to be turning out as I wanted. Something is wrong with the way my structure is (or is not) forming - it keeps deflating. After pulling the dough out of the fridge this morning, which should have been the final proof, I let them come closer to room temp then dumped them onto the parchment paper and they almost immediately flattened out. I had to try to tighten them up and reshape before popping in the oven. I had the oven at 500F and put baking sheets under the dutch ovens to prevent burning. Just pulled the lids off and the feeling of defeat came over me again as I saw the loaves slightly flattened and almost no ear from the scores I made. This is starting to frustrate the heck out of me. Especially as I look at all the nice loaves people, including first timers on social media, are putting out :(

EDIT: just peeked in the oven again and the 'rise' looks slightly better on these but probably because I re-shaped them before popping them in the oven again. I don't know if I need to leave these in the fridge for longer or what. In any case, we'll see what the insides look like soon enough. I've only been able to achieve a nice crust/ear ONCE out of the half dozen times I've made these loaves thus far.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:35:35 AM by jeromedawg »

Dogastrophe

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #389 on: May 07, 2020, 11:19:43 AM »
When it deflated on you that would indicate that it was over proofed.  When you reshaped, they should have been left to rise again.  How long are you doing your final proof?  Approx temp of proving area?

I do my proof overnight in fridge (shaped and lightly covered with a floured tea towel).  Probably 12 to 14 hours in the fridge, pull them out, score, and put in oven.

For me, I gave up on the dutch over.  I found it awkward to get the dough into it and scoured properly.  I am currently just using cookie sheets lined with parchment and an oven temp of 425F (convection ... so 450F regular bake).

GuitarStv

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #390 on: May 07, 2020, 11:25:40 AM »
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking.  In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.

Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?

I'll stick the starter in the fridge if I want to ignore it and stop feeding.  It lives happily in there for about a week - week and a half, and then comes right back after a feeding and 12 hrs on the counter.  Other than that though, never really use the fridge.

I'm in Toronto . . . so it's pretty cold/dry in the winter and pretty warm/humid in the summer.  :P

JLee

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #391 on: May 08, 2020, 08:14:55 AM »
It works better for me if you let it get to room temperature before baking.  In general though, I've found that I get a worse rise when proofing in the fridge so usually don't use that method.

Oh interesting - I keep seeing a lot of articles about putting it in the fridge for the final proof. Do you end up using the fridge at all during bulk fermentation or proofing? Or do you perhaps live in a climate that's generally colder?

I'll stick the starter in the fridge if I want to ignore it and stop feeding.  It lives happily in there for about a week - week and a half, and then comes right back after a feeding and 12 hrs on the counter.  Other than that though, never really use the fridge.

I'm in Toronto . . . so it's pretty cold/dry in the winter and pretty warm/humid in the summer.  :P

I left mine in the fridge for about 1.5 weeks and it was pretty nasty looking -- it's amazing how it recovers!

CrabbitDutchie

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #392 on: May 16, 2020, 04:49:30 AM »

Thank you all for a really informative thread!

Sourdough bread is something I've been wanting to try for ages, so like every last man and his dog I thought the current situation would be perfect. Only problem - the shortage of flour. Finally found some 'farm milled strong bread flour' and that along with my last bits of wholemeal meant I could finally give it a go.

Have been down many rabbit holes and read this thread start to finish. My starter is only on day 6 now, but it's been doubling in size pretty reliably after feeding since about day 3 so I thought it was time to try to bake something.

Plenty of trial and error still to go, but for a first attempt I'll take it - it tastes absolutely amazing
Next time:
- more scoring
- more oven preheating and to a higher temperature (forgot that my oven is no longer fan assist so should have increased the temperature to compensate)
- remember to put parchment sheet correct way up and flour bottom of loaf - it's currently stuck to the bottom of the loaf! mmmmm extra chewy bottom crust!

LightTripper

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #393 on: May 16, 2020, 08:21:06 AM »
That looks fabulous. Can't believe that is your first attempt!! Hope it tasted as good as it looks (chewy base and all... :D)

CrabbitDutchie

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #394 on: May 16, 2020, 01:41:05 PM »
That looks fabulous. Can't believe that is your first attempt!! Hope it tasted as good as it looks (chewy base and all... :D)


Call it beginners luck and a lot of help along the way through reading other people's experience :D
Tastes absolutely fantastic (I've had to hide half from my partner so that we can enjoy it for more than 1 day!)

I see how improving on this could get very addictive (both the mastering of the process and the eating) very quickly.


turketron

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #395 on: May 16, 2020, 08:41:40 PM »
so I made a batch of sourdough this week using the same recipe I've always used, however this is a different flour- these days you take what you can get. Previously I had been using Pillsbury unbleached AP flour but this time I got a bag of King Arthur unbleached AP. Even though I was using the exact same measurements, down to the gram, this time when mixing the dough together it far stickier and wetter than any previous batches I've done. I kneaded the hell out of it and confirmed I had good gluten development via the windowpane test, but it was still seemed sticky and wet so  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyways, I divided it up into two bowls and proofed it in the fridge, and baked them simultaneously in my dutch ovens- I usually use 4 quart but threw the other loaf in the 7 quart even though it's way too big, just so I could bake them at the same time rather than keeping the oven on for hours. I got way more oven spring from one than the other, and I'm not sure why. I've attached a photo, the left one was in the larger DO and the right in the smaller one. Aside from the size of the dutch oven, really the only other difference is that the right one spent maybe another minute or two out of the fridge before going in the oven, as I pulled that one out first and scored it, then did the other one before putting them both in the oven. Any of you guys run into this?


habanero

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #396 on: May 18, 2020, 12:31:20 PM »
Latest creation. 15% rye, 85% wheat.


jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #397 on: May 18, 2020, 09:43:27 PM »
Anyone else have issues with their starter not floating? Not sure what happened with mine but lately it has stopped floating. I just took some 'stale' starter out of the fridge that I fed the past couple days and the smells are anywhere from the standard alcohol to sour. Also, the starter is definitely close to doubling in size so it appears to be vigorous. However, every time I take a dab of it (I'm scooping off the top) and drop it in a cup of water it sinks straight to the bottom. The last two loaves I've made have been mediocre using the starter in this state, so I really need to improve on the starter.
At first I was feeding with 2tbsp of flour and 2tbsp of water. Lately I've been measuring, by weight, 20g~ of each though (which roughly translates to 2tbsp of flour and 1.5tbsp of water).

Any tips or suggestions on how to fix this?

geekette

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #398 on: May 18, 2020, 10:03:06 PM »
I’m quite the newbie, but I’ve been feeding mine much differently. 100 grams of starter gets 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water. The next day, if I’m not baking bread, I discard 200 grams and feed again. Not that I actually discard it - the discard crackers are too popular.

Yesterday I did start “toasting bread”, and after overnight in the fridge, half the day on the counter, and overproofing it in the pan (oops), it came out with a surprisingly decent looking crumb. I’ll see how it tastes tomorrow. Too full of dinner...


jeromedawg

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Re: The sourdough thread
« Reply #399 on: May 18, 2020, 11:12:31 PM »
I’m quite the newbie, but I’ve been feeding mine much differently. 100 grams of starter gets 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water. The next day, if I’m not baking bread, I discard 200 grams and feed again. Not that I actually discard it - the discard crackers are too popular.

Yesterday I did start “toasting bread”, and after overnight in the fridge, half the day on the counter, and overproofing it in the pan (oops), it came out with a surprisingly decent looking crumb. I’ll see how it tastes tomorrow. Too full of dinner...

Whoa, 100 grams is a lot - that's nearly a cup each time! Unless my measurements are off... I'm just using a standard sized mason jar to keep my starter in so feeding it with 1 cup each time would be a lot I think.