The sourdough thread

[Dogastrophe]

This weekend's adventures.  I baked two sourdough loaves this morning (4 or 5 hour bulk fermentation period at room temperature and 13 or 14 hour final proof in refrigerator).

Yesterday I threw together a basic white bread and made 4 mini-loaves.  I left them for 1.5 hours for final proof - I should have checked and stopped at 1 hour as they were starting to over prove.

[LightTripper]

Those are beautiful!!

I decided to see if my starter would start anything and despite never going bubble crazy it has actually generated two loaves. The first was a bit flat because I basically completely forgot how to make a loaf (sort of skipped making the leaven... Oops!!) but pleasant nonetheless. Went back to my Tartine book for method this time and worked much better, except it stuck to the proving basket so it's not pretty!!

Anyway, here is the second one (haven't opened yet but it's risen better than the first and that was still edible!)

The Tartine book is also much less demanding/rigid on what the starter should be like while you're making stuff and has lots of useful stuff on adjusting times for different temperatures. Needs converting from Fahrenheit for Europeans but good stuff. Much less prescriptive than many books/online recipes and guides!

[LightTripper]

With picture!

[Dogastrophe]

With picture!

That looks good!  I would rather a tasty "ugly" loaf that a beautiful looking one that tastes like glue. Each one you make you will discover more tips and tricks that suit your kitchen set up.

I do my final proof in kitchen towel lined glass bowls. I have finally figured out how much dusting flour to use to keep towels from sticking. 

I'm now playing around with different score patterns.  The batard I made today was the first that I got the tall raised lip - I think I know what I did to get it.  :)

[LightTripper]

Yours are really beautiful!! Learning to score beautifully is probably some way down the track for me...

[LightTripper]

One thing I would like advice on.... My bread is very holey at the top and less at the bottom. Is there something specific I can do to get a more even texture? Still tasty but somewhat impractical!!

[Linea_Norway]

The couple of breads that I baked don't look that pretty, but don't have holes in the upper half. Maybe the difference is that I use lots of wholegrain flour, a lot more than half.

[LightTripper]

This was the previous loaf (where I basically forgot how to make bread... I'm amazed it turned into a loaf at all!) but still very holey and more at the top.

I think I might reduce the hydration a bit, but I've also read suggestions it could be due to not enough bulk fermentation... So maybe my starter is still a bit slow or maybe my bulk fermentation wasn't long enough (though it was overnight! But I have a cold house and put in some of the turns before going to bed and some in the morning, so that may not have worked).

I need to start writing down what I can do and treat these as proper experiments!

[Dogastrophe]

That crumb looks quite nice.  well done!

I've read that it could be caused by the baking stone not being hot enough / starting with a cold stone (if using one), not enough time during bulk fermentation, not enough gluten structure built up during kneading.  However, I haven't found anything definitive on what causes it.  Personally, I don't like a lot of holes in my bread - it makes of messy eating when the butter/jam/mustard falls out the bottom.

[LightTripper]

I agree it's not very practical!!

I made it in a casserole that was fully heated.... But insufficient kneading (or the wrong timing) is quite plausible. I'll try to start at a time when I can go more "by the book" next time and see if that improves things!!

[LightTripper]

So this one went much better. Followed the book pretty precisely, though (a) my leaven did not float and (b) accidentally put in too much water and had to balance the flour by feel... Worked out OK considering!! My new dough scorer even made it quite pretty (though it still dragged a bit... Need more practice!)

[LightTripper]

And the inside. Still a bit holey at the top.

[halftimeprof]

Dear MMM sourdough baking enthusiasts,
I am so delighted to find this thread!
Having recently reached FI and moved to halftime employment, I decided to celebrate by making my own sourdough starter and learning to bake sourdough bread (I'm originally from San Francisco and miss the access to outstanding sourdough bread terribly).  But after a few weeks of failure, I'm hoping to get some insights on what I might be doing wrong.  I got the starter going pretty successfully, using organic whole wheat flour to start and feeding it proportionally for about five or six days to good bubbly, rising effects. But then when I tried to make the loaf, I just couldn't get it to rise.  I tried this a couple of times, each time leaving it to rise for longer and longer (on the counter, two risings, the first in a plastic, covered bowl, the second in a banneton proofing basket, covered with plastic one time, linen the next).  But I've been getting virtually no rise at all on either a first or second try.  So here's my question:  Is the problem possibly that I am trying to bake bread in winter in the Great Lakes region and we keep our very old, drafty house quite cool because my husband, son and I all love cool temperatures?  The thermostat is set around 62-65F during the day and 59F at night.  Is this sabotaging my sourdough risings? Do any of you cook in houses this temperature and get your sourdough loves to rise?

[habanero]

I've done mine in the basement which has temperatures quite similar to yours and it has generally worked out fine. You can try and add a tiny amount of regular bread yest and see what happens - this is a quite common technique in french baking. Use a really small amount, like the size of a pea or two for a regular batch of dough.

Have you tried somewhere a bit warmer, like the bathroom?

[LightTripper]

We run at about 66 and as you can see we are managing to make bread although it definitely has substantial room for improvement, and everything takes a lot longer than the books say!

My current book is Tartine which is from a San Francisco bakery, and it does have a section on adjusting times for different temperatures (quite surprising to me what a big difference it makes, so it gave me confidence to just wait, rather than giving up).  Unfortunately it's not in a neat summary table but I am going to try to create one based on the information in there ... will share here when I manage to get around to it!  I keep thinking maybe I should just get a UK based book so it's based on somebody with similar temperature experience. 

[Linea_Norway]

I think the general rules is to wait until the dough has doubled in size, both in first and second poofing. No matter what time it takes. Apart from a rye bread, which will not double in size. Just wait until it happens. Patience is your best friend.

[Poundwise]

Perfect, I just got some sourdough starter from a neighbor and have three jars already.  Will try GuitarStv's English muffin recipe tonight!

[GreenSheep]

Perfect, I just got some sourdough starter from a neighbor and have three jars already.  Will try GuitarStv's English muffin recipe tonight!

Oh, this reminds me that I never came back to say THANK YOU GuitarStv -- I tried the English muffin recipe, and it turned out great! My husband also thought the recipe was a keeper, so it's now in the "vault" of tried-and-true favorites.

[Linea_Norway]

Last night, I prepared my new breads by putting them in the bread form and leaving on the kitchen counter, rather than in the fridge. I thought I could bake the, quite early in the morning. Well, now it is 4 am and I am in the kitchen warming up the oven. One of the breads has almost popped out of its form already, but hasn't gone over the edge yet. I hope it will stay in place in the oven as well.

[Linea_Norway]

Before ...

[GuitarStv]

Perfect, I just got some sourdough starter from a neighbor and have three jars already.  Will try GuitarStv's English muffin recipe tonight!

Oh, this reminds me that I never came back to say THANK YOU GuitarStv -- I tried the English muffin recipe, and it turned out great! My husband also thought the recipe was a keeper, so it's now in the "vault" of tried-and-true favorites.

They're perfect for those long days/nights while under corona virus quarantine!  :P


I just like that you can make 'em gigantic.

[LightTripper]

Forgot to post last weekend's loaf. Fewer errors and I think the crumb is a bit better?

[LightTripper]

Unfortunately it rolled out of the proving basket, so stripes ended up on the side, but my scoring went better than usual so it ended up semi-pretty?

[Buffaloski Boris]

Ptf. Another sourdough fiend here.

[Dogastrophe]

I gave a loaf to one of my coworkers this week.  He took it home and showed it to his wife.  She told him that if it tastes as good as it looks she is going to get divorce papers drawn up and check with my wife to see if she can marry me.  Mid-morning yesterday he got a text from his wife.  All is said was `know any good divorce lawyers? :)" 


@LightTripper that looks like it turned out nicely.  Well done!

@GuitarStv  I have to go back through the thread to find the English Muffin recipe ... sounds like something I should try

[turketron]

My last couple loaves have failed to rise much - they haven't been completely flat but still rose far less than expected (see photo). My best guess is the starter itself- I've been keeping it in the fridge and feed it every week or two, and it seems to be reasonably active & bubbly over the next day or two. When I've wanted to bake a loaf I've been pulling it from the fridge a day or so early to warm it up and I feed it once or twice before mixing up the dough.

I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?

[Linea_Norway]

My last couple loaves have failed to rise much - they haven't been completely flat but still rose far less than expected (see photo). My best guess is the starter itself- I've been keeping it in the fridge and feed it every week or two, and it seems to be reasonably active & bubbly over the next day or two. When I've wanted to bake a loaf I've been pulling it from the fridge a day or so early to warm it up and I feed it once or twice before mixing up the dough.

I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?

I have noticed that a starter right from the fridge can be a bit slow. Starters on room temperature are faster. When I did my last breads, I put the starter, water and flower together and used to hand mixer to blend well. Then I covered the bowl with plastic, left it at room temperature and waited until it started raising. Took about 14 hours. Did you wait that long?

[Dogastrophe]

My last couple loaves have failed to rise much - they haven't been completely flat but still rose far less than expected (see photo). My best guess is the starter itself- I've been keeping it in the fridge and feed it every week or two, and it seems to be reasonably active & bubbly over the next day or two. When I've wanted to bake a loaf I've been pulling it from the fridge a day or so early to warm it up and I feed it once or twice before mixing up the dough.

I'm thinking I need to a) pull it from the fridge earlier and b) feed it more frequently to make sure it's suuuuper active and healthy before baking. Anyone else run into this, and if so, were you able to fix it?

If I am going to bake a loaf on weekend I will take my starter out of fridge on Friday morning.  When I get home in the evening, I will feed it.  By Saturday morning it is ready to go.  After I do initial bulk fermentation, I do the final proof in the fridge and pull it Sunday morning to bake.

[LightTripper]

That's pretty much exactly the timing I used last week @Dogastrophe. Got starter out Thursday night. Mixed leaven Friday morning. Made dough Saturday morning and it did its bulk fermentation on the counter at room temperature. Shaping Saturday afternoon, and then it went in the fridge to get baked Sunday morning. Seemed to work OK though I feel it's less sour than my loaves used to be... But I may well be misremembering!

[Dogastrophe]

@turketron  How did you do your final proof?  Did you put it in a basket / bowl?  The shape of your loaf looks like it was unsupported which will cause it to move outward rather than upward.

[LightTripper]

Another thought: have you tried baking in a casserole dish as a kind of Dutch oven? When I did my course they did one in a domestic oven normally and one in a Dutch oven and the difference in rise was quite impressive....

[turketron]

@turketron  How did you do your final proof?  Did you put it in a basket / bowl?  The shape of your loaf looks like it was unsupported which will cause it to move outward rather than upward.

I don't have a basket, I've been doing the final proof in a mesh colander lined with a towel. That one was pretty "wet" and even after proofing in the fridge just kinda spread as soon as I more or less "poured" it out of the proofing basket. My more recent one was less wet so it kept its shape (forgot to grab a photo) a bit better, but it still didn't rise much.

Another thought: have you tried baking in a casserole dish as a kind of Dutch oven? When I did my course they did one in a domestic oven normally and one in a Dutch oven and the difference in rise was quite impressive....

Yep, using an enameled dutch oven, which has worked great in the past for no-knead bread using commercial yeast!

[Dogastrophe]

@turketron  How did you do your final proof?  Did you put it in a basket / bowl?  The shape of your loaf looks like it was unsupported which will cause it to move outward rather than upward.

I don't have a basket, I've been doing the final proof in a mesh colander lined with a towel. That one was pretty "wet" and even after proofing in the fridge just kinda spread as soon as I more or less "poured" it out of the proofing basket. My more recent one was less wet so it kept its shape (forgot to grab a photo) a bit better, but it still didn't rise much.

Another thought: have you tried baking in a casserole dish as a kind of Dutch oven? When I did my course they did one in a domestic oven normally and one in a Dutch oven and the difference in rise was quite impressive....

Yep, using an enameled dutch oven, which has worked great in the past for no-knead bread using commercial yeast!

How much flour and water are you using in your recipe?  When you do your kneading, do you check for windowpane effect to see that they gluten structure has built up?

[Buffaloski Boris]

Bread porn! 

I've never used sourdough starter to make bread.  Used it for pancakes instead. I'm inspired to get another batch of starter going.  One of those loaves are just a thing of beauty!

[turketron]

So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/ 

It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.

[Dogastrophe]

So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/ 

It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.

This is same video that got me started with sourdough.

[Linea_Norway]

So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/ 

It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.

This is same video that got me started with sourdough.

Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.

[Dogastrophe]

So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/ 

It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.

This is same video that got me started with sourdough.

Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.

Yes, you need to resist the urge to add flour.  When kneading it, try to have "light" hands - push the dough out from itself with either your palm and fold it back onto itself.  Try not to mash it into the work surface.  A good youtube sourdough series is "bake with jack".  He has a couple of videos on kneading sticky dough.

[Linea_Norway]

So after the last couple duds, I baked a loaf on Sunday with great success! I followed this recipe/video that was recommended to me by a coworker: https://www.ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/ 

It worked great, but I didn't do the overnight proof in the fridge so it wasn't all that tangy, so I'm gonna do another loaf in the next few days and let it go overnight.

This is same video that got me started with sourdough.

Thanks. I realized that I have been using too much flower after the first poofing. After every stretch of the dough, I added some flower. The bread has been tasting good, but it is very heavy. So I should somehow use a lot less and get more sticky to start with.

Yes, you need to resist the urge to add flour.  When kneading it, try to have "light" hands - push the dough out from itself with either your palm and fold it back onto itself.  Try not to mash it into the work surface.  A good youtube sourdough series is "bake with jack".  He has a couple of videos on kneading sticky dough.

I am currently trying a new dough with the quantities mentioned in the film. Only with a lot of whole grain flower to be more healthy. But it feels a lot more form than my previous doughs where I used 1 kg flower and 800 gram water. So my current dough is more solid for a starter, so I will not add extra. We'll see how it goes.

[turketron]

one of the positives of mandatory WFH due to coronavirus- plenty of time to make bread! Did two loaves this time with a fridge proof overnight, turned out great! Still not sour enough for me, but definitely more flavor than the short countertop proof!

[LightTripper]

Oh those look lovely!

I have Googled the "Tartine" book I've got and realised that the bread is supposed to be very holey, so feeling better about mine.  Still not sure all the holes are supposed to be at the top :)  But still, it's very tasty, chewy satisfying bread, and my son in particular can't get enough of it, so that makes me happy.  :)

[jeromedawg]

LOL, funny I came across this thread. I just thought about making bread after reading about all the people buying up all the bread in the supermarkets. Anyway, not specifically about sourdough but I have a canister of brewer's yeast that had a best by date of May 2019 I think. Should I toss it? It was opened for making lactation cookies (lol) a few years ago and only stored in a dark/cool pantry after that. I just took it out and tried activating it (1 1/4 tsp of brewers yeast and 1 1/2 tsp of sugar in 1 cup of warm water @ 110~F) but I'm not sure if this is the correct way to proof this yeast - so far there's not really much going on with it. A very very light/faint amount of foam if you can call it that... I'm thinking this yeast is a goner.
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.

[GuitarStv]

I've successfully used yeast that was a couple years beyond it's best before date, but found that I need to use a greater quantity of the stuff.  Like two table spoons instead of one.

[Linea_Norway]

LOL, funny I came across this thread. I just thought about making bread after reading about all the people buying up all the bread in the supermarkets. Anyway, not specifically about sourdough but I have a canister of brewer's yeast that had a best by date of May 2019 I think. Should I toss it? It was opened for making lactation cookies (lol) a few years ago and only stored in a dark/cool pantry after that. I just took it out and tried activating it (1 1/4 tsp of brewers yeast and 1 1/2 tsp of sugar in 1 cup of warm water @ 110~F) but I'm not sure if this is the correct way to proof this yeast - so far there's not really much going on with it. A very very light/faint amount of foam if you can call it that... I'm thinking this yeast is a goner.
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.

When I made my starter, I used flour and instead of water, I used home made white beer that contained both beer yeast and lactate bacteria. It works to poof bread. But, my bread doesn't have those big holes that all the others have. I don't know the reason for this. Even when I added bread yeast to the dough, I still didn't get big holes. My bread is a bit too solid. Maybe I just use too much flour. Or I use too much wholegrain flour.
If your yeast has expired, I would just use it. You can brew beer with bread yeast, as we have done in a crisis of no beer yeast in the house. And you can get bread with beer yeast. Just try it out.

[jeromedawg]

LOL, funny I came across this thread. I just thought about making bread after reading about all the people buying up all the bread in the supermarkets. Anyway, not specifically about sourdough but I have a canister of brewer's yeast that had a best by date of May 2019 I think. Should I toss it? It was opened for making lactation cookies (lol) a few years ago and only stored in a dark/cool pantry after that. I just took it out and tried activating it (1 1/4 tsp of brewers yeast and 1 1/2 tsp of sugar in 1 cup of warm water @ 110~F) but I'm not sure if this is the correct way to proof this yeast - so far there's not really much going on with it. A very very light/faint amount of foam if you can call it that... I'm thinking this yeast is a goner.
Anyway, I've seen a few recipes out there of people using brewer's yeast but wasn't sure if the activation/proofing method would be the same as regular yeast. This is all relatively new to me even though I've baked bread a few times before but it's been a long time.

When I made my starter, I used flour and instead of water, I used home made white beer that contained both beer yeast and lactate bacteria. It works to poof bread. But, my bread doesn't have those big holes that all the others have. I don't know the reason for this. Even when I added bread yeast to the dough, I still didn't get big holes. My bread is a bit too solid. Maybe I just use too much flour. Or I use too much wholegrain flour.
If your yeast has expired, I would just use it. You can brew beer with bread yeast, as we have done in a crisis of no beer yeast in the house. And you can get bread with beer yeast. Just try it out.

I've successfully used yeast that was a couple years beyond it's best before date, but found that I need to use a greater quantity of the stuff.  Like two table spoons instead of one.

Am I even proofing it correctly at this point? I was trying to follow a couple recipes and I'm not convinced that it's proofing properly. What's the best way to check/know if the yeast is still good? Do I need to change my measurements?

Currently:
1 cup water at 110F
1 1/4 teaspoons of brewers yeast
1 1/2 teaspoons of plain white sugar

[GuitarStv]

No bubbles no bueno.  Look for bubbles. 

[jeromedawg]

No bubbles no bueno.  Look for bubbles.

Yea... no bubbles. So I'm assuming whether with brewers yeast or regular yeast, the activation/proofing should all be 100% the same? I had quickly looked on Youtube and saw guys boiling water with brewers yeast to activate it, but that was specifically for beer so was a bit confused...

[LightTripper]

Last weekend's bread. Actually went the right way up into the casserole this time, though I'm still not really getting the slashes I want... Any top tips??

[LightTripper]

Holes mainly at the top again, but it was really tasty and a nice texture. So I've decided not to sweat it. Doubtless will get better as I practice!

[LightTripper]

Starter looking very bubbly this morning. Hope it bodes well for a good loaf!