Author Topic: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this? More data added  (Read 13538 times)

Sibley

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Update in response 23.

Last year, dad and I built a fence and gate from the house to garage. We're talking 12 feet, not long. Well, we have a problem. The gate is just too heavy and it's pulling the fence post out of alignment.

Dad built the gate. It's 6ft by roughly 4 ft, and will survive just about anything. It is seriously overbuilt. It's also quite heavy. We used the heavy duty hinges, as my biggest concern was that the hinges wouldn't handle the weight. I didn't consider the post itself would have a problem.

Two posts, just over a foot apart. The post closest to the house is fine, I don't see that it's moved at all. The post holding the gate however is being pulled outwards, at the top it's 1-2 inches out of alignment. There are 3 cross braces tying the two posts together. The top cross brace is separating from both of the posts. The middle cross braces looks ok.

Two questions: best way to rebuild this gate so it's lighter? I can't lose overall width, it's already about .5 inches short.
What the heck do I do about the post?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 06:53:50 PM by Sibley »

sonofsven

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2022, 12:30:36 PM »
Generally, diagonals are your friend (diagonal bracing). A brace from the bottom of the post near the house to the top of the gate post would work, in theory, but the one foot distance between the two is minimal and too steep of an angle to provide the optimal strength (you can do this with cable or a threaded rod, as well, sold at hardware stores).
I would start by removing the gate and re attaching the horizontal cross braces to the posts with 3" construction screws angled into the post (pre drill!), at least two per brace. Remove the fence boards as necessary.
Before you re attach the braces to the post cut a 2x the length of the opening (measured at the ground between the gate posts) and knock it into place temporarily at the top between the two gate posts to make sure you have the same width as the bottom, then secure the horizontal braces to the post. I'd probably add a diagonal 2x from the bottom of the house post to the top of the gate post while I was at it, screwed into the posts and the horizontal braces.
This should be enough; you're basically locking the two posts together.


Shane

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2022, 01:12:16 PM »
Basically, what sonofsven said, you need some diagonal bracing to keep the post the gate is hung on from leaning away from the house. Normally, an H-brace is used on either side of a gate, but given how close the two posts closest to the house are to each other, a normal H-brace probably isn't going to work.

The Anatomy of an H-Brace


Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2022, 02:31:49 PM »
The horizontal braces are attached with 3 inch screws at an angle. Possibly 4in, we had both and I don't know which dad used. Probably the only reason it's not worse than is!

Is one long diagonal best? Or should I do 2 parallel ones? (kinda like the really bad diagram below)

|  \  |
|     |
|     |
|   \ |
|     |

I do have some space behind the fence, I could add a cable to pull the gate post back, in the opposite direction from where it's getting pulled. Its not much space, maybe 2 ft. Would that be advantageous?

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2022, 02:52:45 PM »
If the opposite post has more room for a diagonal brace perhaps you could swap the hinges to that side. 


Btw, is the loose post set in concrete?  If not, it should have been.  (Looking at the pic it looks like you could drive a wedge between the post & the sidewalk to snug it up.  That would only be a temporary fix, but that shot is why I asked if it was set in concrete.) 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 03:02:34 PM by GreenEggs »

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2022, 03:05:16 PM »
If the opposite post has more room for a diagonal brace perhaps you could swap the hinges to that side.

Not a good idea. The latch side post is a 4x4 post set in a metal post holder which is bolted to the (new) concrete). It was a short fence, not a straightforward fence.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2022, 03:17:34 PM »
If the sidewalk is level where it swings open maybe just installing a caster on the bottom outside corner of the gate would keep it from pulling on the post.  That might fix it, or at least help some if the bracing you add doesn't seem strong enough.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2022, 03:18:07 PM »
Yes, we set in concrete. Dug down I think 40 inches, we ended up with one big hole for the two posts because they're so close. Stuck both posts in, did temporary bracing to keep them straight, and we poured in I believe 4 bags of concrete. I think they were 50lb bags. Let it set up, then we filled in the hole with dirt and left everything along for about a week. When we hung the gate, the posts were both pretty close to straight. I'm sure this has happened gradually, but I noticed it yesterday and got pictures this morning.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2022, 03:19:03 PM »
If the sidewalk is level where it swings open maybe just installing a caster on the bottom outside corner of the gate would keep it from pulling on the post.  That might fix it, or at least help some if the bracing you add doesn't seem strong enough.

Adding to the list. I'm not sure if it would work, but worth looking at.

Shane

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2022, 05:32:06 PM »
I know many do it, but I've heard from knowledgeable people I trust that it's better not to use concrete to set wood posts, as it'll eventually rot them out. Of course, if the posts you and your dad set in concrete feel solid, i.e., they don't wobble, at all, there's no sense digging them up. Just telling you for future reference.

When setting a wood post in the ground, I always try to dig the hole as small as possible, usually just one shovel's width in diameter. I put a few inches of crushed stone aka gravel into the bottom of the hole to make sure the post isn't sitting directly in mud. Then, I refill the hole with a combination of the soil that came out of it, alternating with spadefuls of gravel and sand, tamping everything down, as best I can, while I'm refilling the hole. When you're done, the post should be solid as a rock. You shouldn't be able to move it, at all.

As far as the bracing goes, your idea of putting two diagonal braces seems reasonable to me. You'll want to do it exactly as you drew the diagram. Start low on the right post, closest to the house, and go upwards to the post the gate is attached to. If both posts are solid in the ground, the two braces should keep the gate from making the post it's attached to lean in towards the center of the walkway.

Good luck. Let us know how it turns out for you.

sonofsven

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2022, 06:39:58 PM »
The horizontal braces are attached with 3 inch screws at an angle. Possibly 4in, we had both and I don't know which dad used. Probably the only reason it's not worse than is!

Is one long diagonal best? Or should I do 2 parallel ones? (kinda like the really bad diagram below)

|  \  |
|     |
|     |
|   \ |
|     |

I do have some space behind the fence, I could add a cable to pull the gate post back, in the opposite direction from where it's getting pulled. Its not much space, maybe 2 ft. Would that be advantageous?

Looking at it again my bracing idea won't work, it's too close between the posts.
The post should not pull away from the horizontal rail like that, so do a better job next time ;-).
3" construction screws should be plenty; double up the 2x top rail with another 2x, or better yet make it out of a 4x4 scrap. Then you can get more screws into it.
If it still moves then explore the cable idea.  You could also put a 1/2" threaded rod (with nuts/washers) between the posts, above or below the top rail, that would lock it together.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2022, 07:24:39 PM »
@sonofsven
Worth it to lighten the gate? If so, how to lighten the gate?

lthenderson

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2022, 05:27:23 AM »
I don't know where/why people started using concrete to set wooden posts, especially modern posts that you buy at big box stores that have higher moisture contents. Essentially your post has shrunk and it loose in the base of concrete. It will now fill with moisture and rot the post out much faster.

Normally I would recommend taking out the post and redoing it properly but since you poured concrete around both those posts in a single hole, that really compounded the problem. You can put on a lighter gate but that is just a temporary solution as well as the post is just going to get worse with time until you fix it. The only solutions I can think of are not as aesthetically pleasing. Add more bracing between it and the house or build some bracing across the top that is over head height to keep the tops of the posts at a fixed distance apart.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2022, 07:45:00 AM »
Well, we did use treated wood if that helps. And it's under an overhang so less water to worry about. I wanted to use metal posts but dad had already built the gate and my research said the gate would probably bend the post. The fence may rot, but that gate will probably outlive all of us.

So, how should the posts be set? Two posts, sandwiched between concrete sidewalk and the house (poured concrete foundation). Very tight spacing to work. @lthenderson

HipGnosis

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2022, 07:48:21 AM »
Yes, we set in concrete. Dug down I think 40 inches, we ended up with one big hole for the two posts because they're so close. Stuck both posts in, did temporary bracing to keep them straight, and we poured in I believe 4 bags of concrete. I think they were 50lb bags. Let it set up, then we filled in the hole with dirt and left everything along for about a week. When we hung the gate, the posts were both pretty close to straight. I'm sure this has happened gradually, but I noticed it yesterday and got pictures this morning.

Since the post is leaning, you didn't 'set' it well enough for the weight of the gate.  I suspect the 'one hole' as a major contribution to the issue.
Even if you lighten the gate, that post should be removed and re-set.  Bracing the post now would leave a void at the bottom of the post from it leaning.

Luke Warm

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2022, 07:54:37 AM »
you could put a brace across the top of the gate to attach the hinge side to the latch side. maybe a decorative arch or something. we have a double swing gate that is probably 16' wide attached to 8"x8" posts and it has a brace across the top. it's held up for about 10 years with minimal sag.

sonofsven

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2022, 08:27:54 AM »
@sonofsven
Worth it to lighten the gate? If so, how to lighten the gate?
I don't think you should bother, unless those black metal angles are made of cast iron!
Normally I would ditch the middle rail and run a diagonal 2x from the bottom of the hinge side to the top of the latch side.
This can also be done with one of the gate/screendoor kits I mentioned earlier, a cable or very small threaded rod, that allows you to tighten it up to account for sway over time.
Regarding posts and concrete, I too prefer to set them in gravel (3/4-), but in your situation with that gate I think concrete is appropriate.
The issue with the concrete is that, even though when you pour the concrete it is tight against the wood post, over time the wood expands/contracts and the concrete does not, so water starts to seep in and the post rots in the concrete. Then when you're trying to replace the post there is a massive hunk of concrete in the way.
It probably takes ten to fifteen years, though, for the post to rot like this (pressure treated posts rated for ground contact). You can also paint "poison" (aka preservative) on any cut end grain in the ground.
You might be able, using a ratchet strap, to snug the posts back to the rails with the gate still attached, screw the rails back to the posts, and release the straps.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2022, 10:16:43 AM »
What I'm hearing is we need to replace the post. Set it deeper, with way more concrete/gravel/whatever, cross brace it to the 2nd post better, etc. Anything else is a bandaid and a likely ineffective bandaid. Is that fair?

index

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2022, 10:49:32 AM »
An H-brace won't work. The posts are too close together. It looks like your post is actually warped and not that the concrete footing failed. You can try to pull the 4x4 straight and support it with a new 4x4.


lthenderson

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2022, 12:26:01 PM »
What I'm hearing is we need to replace the post. Set it deeper, with way more concrete/gravel/whatever, cross brace it to the 2nd post better, etc. Anything else is a bandaid and a likely ineffective bandaid. Is that fair?

Removing the post now is a huge amount of work not only getting it and the concrete out but then compacting new material in a even more expanded hole than you initially dug to set it. I think perhaps the best solution would be to put a wedge between the base of the post and the sidewalk to drive the bottom over as needed, or at least prevent it from moving any more. Then using some lag bolts, cable and cable tensioners, pull the gate latch post tight to the gapped bracing that is there. It will be on the inside of of the fence and probably the least intrusive option. Then just wait for the wooden post(s) to rot off ten years down the road and do everything right the next time around.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2022, 12:59:28 PM »
First, you are sipping a cold beer while consider all these suggestions, advice, & options, right?  ;)


Along with the idea of using threaded rod to pull the joints back together & keep them tight, which sounds like a good idea to me, I'd suggest to try pulling them together using either bar clamps or ratchet straps first.  That'll give you a quick visual check about what's happened, and a better idea of how to fix it.  We're all just looking at the pics and guessing about what's happened, but it hard to tell what actually happened by just looking at pics. 


The post "looks" slightly warped, the joints "look" like they pulled apart, etc.  But we can't be certain of what's actually happened.  I'm guessing that the threaded rod will work well for tightening the post & joints back together, and then you might need to drive a wedge or two next to the post(s) to tighten the hole(s) and tilt it back to the right a tad. 

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2022, 01:43:20 PM »
First, you are sipping a cold beer while consider all these suggestions, advice, & options, right?  ;)


Along with the idea of using threaded rod to pull the joints back together & keep them tight, which sounds like a good idea to me, I'd suggest to try pulling them together using either bar clamps or ratchet straps first.  That'll give you a quick visual check about what's happened, and a better idea of how to fix it.  We're all just looking at the pics and guessing about what's happened, but it hard to tell what actually happened by just looking at pics. 


The post "looks" slightly warped, the joints "look" like they pulled apart, etc.  But we can't be certain of what's actually happened.  I'm guessing that the threaded rod will work well for tightening the post & joints back together, and then you might need to drive a wedge or two next to the post(s) to tighten the hole(s) and tilt it back to the right a tad.

LOL, I wish on the beer. Am actually working. Realistically, we need more information to figure out what to do, there's solutions for a couple different problems being posted and I don't know which is applicable. I'm going to take the gate off and see what the post does without all that strain on it, plus get some measurements before and after. I will report back once I've had a chance to do that. Hopefully tonight I can get over there.

Depending what is needed, I may or may not be able to do it myself. We're really flirting on the edge. I do not have a lot of time available to work on the fence. I absolutely refuse to replace the post myself. Some bracing I can do, other things I'm not sure. I may end up having to hire someone.

index

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2022, 02:08:07 PM »
First, you are sipping a cold beer while consider all these suggestions, advice, & options, right?  ;)


Along with the idea of using threaded rod to pull the joints back together & keep them tight, which sounds like a good idea to me, I'd suggest to try pulling them together using either bar clamps or ratchet straps first.  That'll give you a quick visual check about what's happened, and a better idea of how to fix it.  We're all just looking at the pics and guessing about what's happened, but it hard to tell what actually happened by just looking at pics. 


The post "looks" slightly warped, the joints "look" like they pulled apart, etc.  But we can't be certain of what's actually happened.  I'm guessing that the threaded rod will work well for tightening the post & joints back together, and then you might need to drive a wedge or two next to the post(s) to tighten the hole(s) and tilt it back to the right a tad.

LOL, I wish on the beer. Am actually working. Realistically, we need more information to figure out what to do, there's solutions for a couple different problems being posted and I don't know which is applicable. I'm going to take the gate off and see what the post does without all that strain on it, plus get some measurements before and after. I will report back once I've had a chance to do that. Hopefully tonight I can get over there.

Depending what is needed, I may or may not be able to do it myself. We're really flirting on the edge. I do not have a lot of time available to work on the fence. I absolutely refuse to replace the post myself. Some bracing I can do, other things I'm not sure. I may end up having to hire someone.

The 4x4 isn't bending because of weight. It was either installed wet and warped in the direction of force as it was drying or the post hole failed. stick a straight edge against the 4x4 and make sure its straight. If its straight, you need to work on supporting the post with bracing. If its warped, you need to straighten it out.

Sibley

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Re: The gate is too heavy for the post, how do I fix this?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2022, 06:52:29 PM »
Thanks to you all knowing what the heck you're doing, I can now provide better info on what's wrong: the post has warped. I didn't take the gate off, but I did stick something underneath it temporarily.

The post at the very bottom looks fine. The post has warped, starting a little more than half way up. If you're looking at the post straight on, it has twisted to the left and back (towards the fence boards).

Picture 1 is at the top, 2 in the middle, 3 at the bottom. We stuck a straight edge on the house post and measured how far back the gate post was sitting in comparison. Note that they were NOT originally level with each other, the bottom measurement seems to be the same from when we installed it.

The posts are also measuring the same distance apart at top, middle and bottom - 12 inches.

The braces were installed from the outside, before the fence panels went up. Dad notched them, then they were screwed to the posts with 3in screws. He also did put in some angled screws, but those are secondary and probably not doing much. The spacing on the braces has not changed from installation. With the gate post twisting outwards, the fence panels and cross brace has been pulled outwards, which makes it look wider.

Picture 4 is from the outside of the fence, slightly above the middle. You can see that the gate end of the panel is extending out past the house end of the panel. When originally installed, the panel was (roughly, we're not actually great at fence building) straight across, set back a bit from the edge of the brick.

I also looked at the bottom to see if we could put a castor to support some of the weight of the gate. Unless they make castors that can accommodate different spacing, that's not going to work. The concrete has a subtle slope to facilitate water drainage. It's around .25 inches variation, but I didn't measure exactly.

So, the solution needed is to untwist the gate post and then support it so it stays untwisted. Is this lag bolts and cables?

Dancin'Dog

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Here's a spring loaded gate caster that's on eBay.  (I tried to post the pic, but it was huge & I didn't know how to shrink it.)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/333292101376?epid=2254328220&hash=item4d99c1df00:g:MSEAAOSwrwhbxWTO

Sibley

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Here's a spring loaded gate caster that's on eBay.  (I tried to post the pic, but it was huge & I didn't know how to shrink it.)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/333292101376?epid=2254328220&hash=item4d99c1df00:g:MSEAAOSwrwhbxWTO

Cool, so that is an option.

lthenderson

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I don't think there is anyway you are going to untwist and unbend a 4" post that has dried in that position.

Sibley

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I don't think there is anyway you are going to untwist and unbend a 4" post that has dried in that position.

Does it make sense to add support so it doesn't get worse?

sonofsven

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Ok, starting over. I thought you said that the post had pulled sway from the horizontal rail at the top, hence my advice for re installing the rails with better screws!
Looking at how the gate is hung, you have the hinges mounted on the inside face of the post, so no adjustment of the hinges is really possible to address the sag.
Can you instead mount the hinges on the outward facing side of the post (where the fence boards are)? This will give you some possibilities to adjust the hinges by mounting the top hinge further onto the post.

Sibley

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Ok, starting over. I thought you said that the post had pulled sway from the horizontal rail at the top, hence my advice for re installing the rails with better screws!
Looking at how the gate is hung, you have the hinges mounted on the inside face of the post, so no adjustment of the hinges is really possible to address the sag.
Can you instead mount the hinges on the outward facing side of the post (where the fence boards are)? This will give you some possibilities to adjust the hinges by mounting the top hinge further onto the post.

Well, my initial description of the problem was wrong, so I don't blame you.

I'm not understanding what the benefit would be. The gate currently opens/closes fine. However, the type of hinges we got, I think we'd have to switch the door to swing out, not in, and that is not preferred by the parents. Also, since the post is twisting, I am not actually sure if we could get a hinge mounted on the outside and have the door swing ok. Plus, it would mess with the fence panel in some way.

lthenderson

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So if the door works fine and it is just the aesthetics of the sag, I would probably brace the twisted post better to the one against the house a foot away so that it doesn't get any worse. I would then just take the boards off on the outside of the fence and reattach them so that everything appears level across the top. Since the gap is closer at the top than the bottom of the gate, you might have to do a little skillsaw work to take a sliver off the top end and make the gap look symmetrical. Then it will look like it isn't sagging even though it still is.

Sibley

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I can do that. Not getting worse is a good goal here. I'll have to take the fence paneling down to get at it properly, but that's fine.

BudgetSlasher

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This doesn't help with the twisted post, but if the whole travel of the gate is over smooth even concrete (and possibly ground) they do make gate helper wheels that might take some of the load off the hinges/post.