Author Topic: the end to high heating costs??  (Read 4671 times)

YNotAlwaysBadassity

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the end to high heating costs??
« on: April 04, 2015, 11:18:44 AM »
I'm a guy starting life with a girlfriend the right way.
0 debt.
A generous buffer in the bank, and a curiosity for all things money saving, within reason. (I will NOT peel toilet paper!!)

anyway- starting a home soon and ran into a very interesting problem.
The more space you have, the higher your heating and air conditioning will be. This is because the air and heat gets dispersed through the house.

Uhh... why!?

Could this not be solved by building a heating and air system that delivers air into each room, and can be shut off?

 Here is what I propose, but before building it, wanted to get some input.

This is a blower.


its the part that blows air down ducts. To recap, it works its ass off heating up empty rooms, and draining your bank account. Not very big is it?

From this diagram you can see how it continually pushes air to every room.


I worked with air condition ducts for a year tearing them down for scrap. One thing I noticed..
the heck.. there nothing stopping the airflow?

So here is my idea.

Here is a servo although I would get a stronger one
http://www.motionrc.com/freewing-17g-metal-gear-servo-with-100mm-4-lead/

The servo would be connected to a plexi-glass sheet, that with a command from Raspberry Pi server making a fork from Hotpi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWE45rAoZ88&feature=youtu.be would raise and lower the plate sealing off the flow to one room.

This would stop wasted money cooling off a lonely bookshelf, and more efficiently heat/cool the one room you care about.

As for air escaping, I'm building my home with sliding glass doors that will airtight lock every room, also connected to servos. A simple temperature sensor could be placed in every room.

So when I'm relaxing in the living room with family, only the living room is nice and air conditioned.
When I want to go to office, I send the command, office door locks, air starts, and a notification pops up when the room is ready.

Leave room? Door locks, air starts, notified when it is ready.
Let me know your thoughts, and I hope this helps someone!



jba302

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2015, 11:40:00 AM »
The damper thing exists already if I'm thinking right about your plexiglass sheet idea -

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Fantech-RSK4-RSK-Series-4-Duct-Backdraft-Damper?gclid=Cj0KEQjwl_6oBRDHxNGz6ueJufMBEiQAvm_k_iwWVmDjfPSMXufmqjEMT-4ESrpQ8iXwezQQPDvIP0QaAvtd8P8HAQ

You could probably servo that if the servo is strong enough. I think this idea would work somewhat correctly. Keep in mind, a house is not a series of disconnected rooms. The R-value of an interior wall is super low, like 1-1.5 maybe? So you would perhaps need to insulate interior walls and between floors to really get a good boost. Otherwise you are losing heat/cold through the wall at an appreciable rate.


SaintM

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2015, 01:23:00 PM »
Or you could just stick to a smaller house with no empty rooms.  Instead of spending money to modify your HVAC and hope to recover in lower utilities, you can save on principal, interest, taxes, utilities, repairs, insurance, and cleaning.

FranzJoseph

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2015, 01:53:38 PM »
Would you then need a return in every single room?  Otherwise the pressure will increase, especially if the room is airtight.  Not sure what that then does to the blower which would have to work harder pushing air into the room.  Another way to do it is to have thermostats in every room controlling a damper on the duct for that space.  Each thermostat can be controlled by your smartphone - I use Honeywell's Thermostat app.  You could go even more high tech and install motion sensors in every space and have those control the thermostats!  I'm actually building an operating room in a hospital and the space is fully automated - as soon as someone steps foot in it the temperature and humidity are pushed to their 'occupied' settings and within minutes are at the correct setting. 

bzzzt

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 02:08:06 PM »
Or you could just stick to a smaller house with no empty rooms.  Instead of spending money to modify your HVAC and hope to recover in lower utilities, you can save on principal, interest, taxes, utilities, repairs, insurance, and cleaning.

What he said. Also, insulate the house to the max and you won't need to get this crazy with system efficiency/zoning. For what the airtight sliding glass doors will cost, you could max the insulation and have an open floor plan that will probably sell better down the road if you ever need to move.

paddedhat

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2015, 06:25:25 AM »
As a retired custom home builder, I don't want to offend you, but this whole idea is a vast waste of time, and money. First, as noted, if you are building a home, leave the herd mentality behind, and build what you NEED, not what society expect you to do, or what results in better resale. Single family homes are well documented money pits with horrendous returns, and there is no need to build a bigger one that you need. Second, study things like net-zero, and other techniques that can provide a home with very, very little energy usage. If you build a sophisticated machine to occupy, you have very little in the way of energy usage, and no need to be zoning areas off. 

Finally, give a lot more thought to how impractical you whole idea is. Not only will you need to be able to mechanically seal the room's HVAC supply with a motorized damper (which are commonly available and used in commercial and institutional applications every day, BTW) you would need to damper individual  returns in each room, as the returns could create convection currents if left open in a partially decommissioned system. Whole house HVAC systems are designed for.......... the whole house. Which leads to the fact that operating a system designed to heat and cool X amount of volume, while throttling it back to X-60%, will only result in inefficiency. The motorized sliders would also present a huge issue, as they would all need safety interlocks, in the same manner that garage doors do.  The possibility of crushing children and pets in remotely operated doors is not something that most code inspectors would be willing to ignore, nor should you. Overall you are bringing a shotgun to a mosquito swatting contest.

This whole idea reminds me of a home one of my customers bought. The place was a very large 1980s colonial. The builder was very ahead of his time, and built an extraordinarily efficient building. He also did a one-off HVAC system that would of made a NASA engineer jealous. It had countless relays, dampers, fresh air intakes, controls, and other widgets. It worked great.........................until it didn't.  Then the customer went through countless HVAC service contractors who would come, and stare at the massive three ring binder of system data and drawings, then attempt some type of futile fiddling to justify the service call.  After a few years of this frustration, the owner had the entire system deposited in a dumpster and installed something that was reliable and simple. The annual cost of  heating and cooling the home stayed the same.

 As I sat in freshman Physics 101 on the very first day, the prof. wrote KIS on the board in big letters. He said, "that stands for Keep It Simple.  The world of physics is hard enough without overthinking and overcomplicating things".  It's a good lesson to learn.

EDIT:  In 2013 I built a new home for my wife and I. It's 1200 sq. ft.  Well insulated and detailed, and costs $5-600 a year to heat.  Each room is heated by a slim, compact, modern version of the old standby electric baseboard unit, controlled by a digital thermostat. Unused rooms (typically a guest bedroom and a small office) are left at 50* in the winter, with the doors closed. I've build dozens of homes over the years and installed most commonly available HVAC systems, for my place I went with the KIS plan. Simple, cheap and trouble free. It would of run me $7-10K to install a well done HVAC system with a super efficient propane furnace and high SEER AC.  My electric heat materials ran me a few hundred bucks, and two new window ACs (then run about ten days a summer here)  brought the total to less than a grand. Given resale and payback calculations, the full HVAC system made no sense at all in this climate.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 06:44:12 AM by paddedhat »

math-ya

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2015, 06:53:48 AM »
I agree with padded hat. I always heard it a KISS-keep it simple, stupid. I feel like a standard baseboard diffuser would function similar to you setup, but cheap and simple.  It sounds like you are reinventing the wheel over here. If you really want to save some money on heat/ coolin costs, I recently had a home energy consultant come to my house to look at everything and he told me the biggest bang for my buck in energy cost reduction.  He did a lot of cool tests including a blower door test, he scanned all the walls with a thermal camera from insid and outside, efficiency tests on all my appliances, etc. his report was very interesting and he told me a bunch of areas for improvement that I never even considered.

grsing

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2015, 01:07:27 PM »
These sort of systems definitely do exist for commercial/industrial spaces. You can individually set temperature for every room, as well as airflow as needed for indoor air quality (lots of people in a room on a cold day can keep it a nice temperature, but the CO2 gets high and everybody wonders why they're tired).

There's no reason you couldn't install one in a house, but the up-front cost would be significant, you'd have to be running an automation system of some sort, there are more parts to break, etc.

If you're only looking at radiator heat, rather than forced air, it is relatively common to have multiple independent zones. My 1800 sq ft house has three different zones, so we use programmable thermostats to keep the area where we usually are at that time of day a reasonable temperature, and let the others be cold.

bogart

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 09:40:30 PM »
Although others are unenthusiastic about your idea (and perhaps for good reason), we recently had an addition put on our house and I did insist on its having its own thermostat and HVAC control.

How much this does (or doesn't) save is impossible for me to know, as I don't have a counterfactual.  I could I guess program both thermostats exactly the same and compare that to months when I run them separately (and try to control for temperature differences in terms of the prevailing climate month-by-month), but I'm not going to bother.

Besides the HVAC difference we had a whole-house fan installed in the addition.  It (the addition) can be pretty much completely closed off from the house (not 100% as there is 1 interior door between it and the main house, which doesn't form a tight seal.  But -- close enough, for many purposes.

With the separate HVAC and the fan, we can of course heat or cool the new space less (or more) than the main house (using the central HVAC, which is a reasonably efficient system).  I can also shut the HVAC off in just the addition and run the whole-house fan just there.  Or, I can open the addition to the house and use it as a real whole-house fan.  As the large room next to the addition holds a wood stove, we can also use the whole-house fan to draw heat generated by the wood stove into the addition if we want to (obviously not for long, as it just blows the air out.  But to get some warm air in if the room has not been being heated, this is an option).

Cost efficiency (or not) aside, 1.5+ decades into marriage one thing that is very clear is that my DH and I have noticeably different preferences on how warm/cold a house should be.  So particularly in the summer, being able to leave one room unairconditioned appeals to me a lot.

Long story short ... while I am no expert, I do somewhat share others' skepticism about the value of what you propose if done room-by-room.  But in terms of maybe 2 separate heating zones, I think there can be something to recommend there, even if not entirely (gasp) for cost-savings reasons.

PatStab

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2015, 09:54:26 PM »
Our house is 13 years old, built new by previous owner.  We heat and cool 1800 sq ft main living area and an 1800 sq ft basement.

The house has insulated windows and the insulation that is put in as foam so is pretty airtight.  We have a geothermal heating and cooling system, it also has heat assist from it for the hot water. It keeps the house at a very nice comfortable temperature, blower blows longer but not as strong as the force air systems, its a wonderfully comfortable set up.  I do add humidity in the winter.  We like it 75 in the summer too unless I'm canning then I turn it down more.  Our balanced billing is $250 a month, I just started it last year so expect it to go down in the summer..  But keep in mind the only other utilities are a propane stove, water, and sewer.

I am a heavy electricity user, like the house 75 and 76 all winter.  In Feb it was very cold, 14 below a lot of days and nights so we used 3000 kwhours of electric, ran us about $300, we are also on balanced billing that reconciles quarterly.  Of that bill $20 is for the yard light and $20 is sales taxes.

I want to be warm and we are.


mikesinWV

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Re: the end to high heating costs??
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 11:38:02 AM »
 Assuming this is a forced air system, why not simply close the vent in the room not being used.  It's not perfect but it doesn't cost you anything. And of course close the door if you can.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!