Author Topic: Small scale solar power system?  (Read 7866 times)

Anomalous

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Small scale solar power system?
« on: June 02, 2015, 05:17:52 PM »
I've been interested in solar power for a while. I've been maintaining component cost spreadsheets since 2011, tracking the price of solar panels, batteries, and other parts.

However, I've never been able to justify purchasing a system for a few reasons:
1) Cheap electric rates where I live.
2) I use too much electricity to go 100% solar power. Electric stove, electric water heater, resistive electric baseboard heat as the only heat source.
3) No really good location for solar panels. My roof faces east/west, and I have a lot of tall trees to the south.
4) I really don't want to have to get permits to install anything. I've read through the process required to get any permit and it seems like quite a hassle. Also, there are some non-permitted and non-compliant things on my property (in existence before I bought the place), and I don't know what would happen if I bring inspectors in.

I recently ran across a Kickstarter campaign for this solar controller, and it has me thinking about a small scale system instead: http://kck.st/1dfFaIg

This works with a small amount of solar panels (200-1200 watts) and batteries. During the day it uses solar power to recharge the batteries and run whatever you've plugged into it. At night it switches the load over to grid power. If grid power goes down it will run the load off of the batteries.

This is not a good product in terms of return on investment. However, it would let me experiment with solar power (and maybe some LiFePO4 batteries) at a low cost and provide some backup electricity in case of a power outage. Perhaps most importantly, it does not tie into the grid in any way, so I don't need any permission from the power company to use it or hire a specially certified electrician to install it.

I put together component lists for three different sized system based around this controller:
Smallest system (200W panels, 840Wh AGM batteries): $803 up front, $412 discounted price.
Medium system (400W panels, 1024Wh LiFePO4 batteries): $1936 up front, $1034 discounted price.
Large system (1000W panels, 4608Wh LiFePO4 batteries): $4180 up front, $2231 discounted price.

Note: discounted price is after federal tax credit (25%), state tax credit (20%), and where applicable 5% Amazon credit card credit.

You download my spreadsheet listing all system components here: UNplug planning (it looks like adding tables to a post is a bit of pain, so I'm not going to try to re-create the data here.)

It looks like this specific product will not make it off the ground (the Kickstarter campaign isn't going very well.) However, it shouldn't be to too hard to assemble a similar small-scale system out of different components.

Has anyone put together a small solar system, maybe between 200 and 1000 watts?

Does this seem like a worthwhile thing to experiment with? Or just an unnecessary waste of money and time?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:43:20 AM by Anomalous »

localflavor

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2015, 06:38:22 PM »
I have a small system here in canada. I bought all the components  at a store called canadian tire. I needed some power in an outbuilding, lights, music and some small power tools. Started out with 120 watts of panels and a power box with 66 amp hour battery and built in inverter on wheels. Worked great for about 5 years. Over that time as panels came on sale and became more efficient I have increased my panel capacity to 520 watts with some mix and match panels. Have now also upgraded battery bank to two agm 75 amp hour batteries and a bigger 3000 wato inverter.
current system is a stand alone, non grid tied setup. Makes enough power for me to run my entertainment system every evening for 3 hours, charge everything in my house that runs on a rechargeable battery, an air conditioner for a couple of hours a day on hot and sunny days, and lots of othe daily power needs. Its also neat to carry on as usual when other people have no power.
I havent tracked the economics of my setup as I see it as a hobby, but it will eventually pay for itself when many hobbies dont. So far I've spent about $1750 to $2000 over the past 7 years.

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 06:25:55 PM »
I have a small system here in canada.

Thanks for the reply! I'm surprised that you can run the air conditioner; I assumed that was beyond the capabilities of a small-scale system. What you say about treating this as a hobby that just happens to offset some of it's cost over time makes a lot of sense to me.

There doesn't seem to be much interest here in small solar systems, either for or against. Since no one has spoken up against the idea, I'm really tempted to go ahead with a system just big enough to run the refrigerator, lights, and rechargeable electronics. I'll wait until the Kickstarter campaign for the UNplug controller is over (either succeed or fail), since that would change my component selection.

I threw together some quick system diagrams. If anyone reading this thinks I left something out or did something wrong, please let me know!

The basic off-grid solar system looks something like this:


Adding in the wiring boxes, protection components, and disconnect switches makes it look more complicated:

Let me know if I've missed any recommended safety components or disconnect switches!

If using an UNplug controller the diagram looks a bit different, since it passes everything through itself:

I don't know if the AC lightning arrestors and surge capacitors are needed both on the output to the load and the input from the grid. It seems like you'd need to protect all external lines though. This adds quite a lot to the cost of a small-scale system, but the components (especially the inverter) are expensive enough that it would be really annoying to lose them prematurely.

edit: I've had to correct the diagram for the UNplug controller about 4 times since I first posted! Hopefully it's right now.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 06:44:27 PM by Anomalous »

localflavor

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 07:39:25 PM »
The air conditioner I run is fairly small and energy star rated so it draws only 5 amps. It's a window mount single room type unit. Its on the west end of the house and  keeps my kitchen cool later in the day. Like I said I only run it for a couple of hours but it does make a big difference.

Incidently I have found there to be a lot of correlation between developing a solar system and frugality. When you start looking at your energy budget to maximize efficiency and then compare personal finance budgeting for the same, there are a lot of philosophical parallels. I've been surprised there aren't more people in the forums who have seen the similarities  and have married the two pursuits together.

marty998

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 02:45:29 AM »
Ha Solar Panels duh.

Any other idiots out there like me who saw the thread title and wondering why is this guy trying to build a small scale PLANETARY solar system?




Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 10:44:35 AM »
Ha Solar Panels duh.

Any other idiots out there like me who saw the thread title and wondering why is this guy trying to build a small scale PLANETARY solar system?
You have a point. The topic now says "Small scale solar power system" :)

FrogStash

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 01:29:44 PM »
Posting to follow.  I am quite interested in solar power for my shed/workshop but know nearly nothing about it.

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2015, 06:56:37 PM »
Posting to follow.  I am quite interested in solar power for my shed/workshop but know nearly nothing about it.
I started to write out a basic explanation of simple solar power systems, but my "basic" explanation was getting a little long. So I'll just leave this here:

If you want a very basic small system (stand-alone, not wired into the building) it's pretty simple. There are just four parts:
1) Solar panel: converts sunlight to low voltage DC electricity.
2) Battery: stores low voltage DC electricity.
3) Charge controller: used to charge battery from solar panel.
4) Inverter: converts low voltage DC electricity into 120V AC electricity to power normal household things.

There are two steps to designing the system:
1) Figure out how much power you need. This is based on what you're going to run off of the solar power system (lights, tools, appliances, etc.) You need to determine both the maximum power you'll use at once (peak draw in watts) and the amount of power you'll use each day (daily use in watt-hours.)
2) Buy components based on the power needs. Solar panels and batteries are chosen based on the daily usage (watt-hours.) The inverter is chosen based on the maximum power used at once (peak draw in watts.)

For this basic system, choosing the components is probably the hardest part. Assembly and use is basically just connecting a few wires, putting the solar panels out in the sun, and plugging in whatever you want to power.

Some people don't bother with the design step either; they just buy stuff, hook it up, and see if it's adequate. If they aren't getting enough power, add more solar panels, more batteries, or a bigger inverter. I'd rather figure out the right size up front.

It doesn't really start to get complicated until you want to make a large system, or a grid-connected one, or a permanently installed system that has to comply with codes and pass an inspection.

trammatic

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2015, 11:32:35 AM »
There is an old contributer on here, Bakari, who wrote an instructable for powering 12v appliances via solar to eliminate the inefficiencies in transforming 120V AC to 12V DC.

http://www.instructables.com/id/NON-grid-intertie-independant-solar-photovoltic-/

I power my computer accessories (cable modem and router) and cell phone chargers this way.

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2015, 03:41:28 PM »
There is an old contributer on here, Bakari, who wrote an instructable for powering 12v appliances via solar to eliminate the inefficiencies in transforming 120V AC to 12V DC.

http://www.instructables.com/id/NON-grid-intertie-independant-solar-photovoltic-/

I power my computer accessories (cable modem and router) and cell phone chargers this way.
Thanks for the link! I remember reading posts from Bakari, but I don't think I ever ran across this instructable of his before. I encourage anyone who is curious about solar power but doesn't know anything about it to read this; it's a very good primer on the subject.

I really like the idea of powering things off of 12V directly instead of going through an inverter. It seems like a more elegant solution than converting voltages up and down all over the place. However, I'm not sure how practical it is in most cases.

I went around my house and checked all the low-power things that are currently plugged in to see which could run off of 12 volts DC directly:
Cell phone: 5V DC
Laptop: 20V DC
Weather ratio: 12V DC
Charger for cordless tool batteries: direct cord, no adapter (though a car charger is available also)
Cat water fountain: 12V AC
Air pump (used for compost tea): AC only
Camera battery charger: direct plug, no adapter
Cable modem: 12V DC
Router: 12V DC
LED task light: 5V DC
Network camera: 5V DC

So the only things that I could power directly from 12V are the weather radio, cable modem, and router. If I could also supply 5V DC then a few more things can be powered, but that's another voltage conversion added.

Pros of a 12V direct wiring system:
- More reliable (no inverter to break down)
- Simpler (no inverter needed)
- More efficient at low power draw. Most newer AC to DC adapters are switching power supplies (anything that accepts 120-240V is a switching power supply), so there's very little loss in converting from AC to DC. Most inverters are also pretty efficient at a high percentage of their rated capacity. However, using an inverter to supply only a small % of its capacity can be pretty inefficient.

Cons of a 12V direct wiring system:
- Only works for devices that require the same voltage as the battery bank (unless you add extra voltage converters.) A 12V battery can work with many things, a 24V or 48V battery bank probably can't work directly with much.
- Not as efficient at power transmission over distance. For anything other than low power draw, need either very thick wires or very short wires.
- Many things can't run on 12V DC.
- If supplying both 12V DC and 120V AC, need to run a separate set of wires.
- May have to modify the cords for things you want to power.
- Maybe less isolation in case of a power surge? (Like a nearby lightning strike inducing current on the wiring, nothing practical protects from a direct hit.) Mainly thought of this because I lost a couple cable modems from surges before I added a surge protector on the incoming cable attached to a 2nd grounding rod. It would be inconvenient and inefficient to start losing electronics due to a non-protected power line.

I think a 12V direct system makes sense if it means that you can avoid running an inverter most of the time. Especially beneficial in an RV or purpose-designed house where all the lights can run on 12V. I'm not sure that using 12V directly is practical if you're going to be running an inverter continually in addition; at that point it would be simpler to have just one set of wires.

I've been thinking of setting up a system with a 24V battery, in which case direct wiring makes even less sense. There are 24V to 12V converters, but is there any reason to expect one of those to be more efficient or more reliable than a 120V inverter?

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2015, 07:17:21 PM »
I have three small inverters and an old oscilloscope, so I decided to go play with line voltages today.

There's nothing unsafe about this, right?


Here's what the AC power from the electric company looks like.

This measures 171 V peak, 60.6 Hz frequency. Calculates out to 120.9 V RMS. I assume that the frequency is actually 60 Hz, and the discrepancy is either from me measuring poorly or the antique oscilloscope being a little out of calibration.

Here's a 400 W modified sine wave inverter from Harbor Freight. This is the newest inverter that I own.

Measures 144 V peak, 60.3 Hz frequency, 5.9ms on time, 2.4ms off time. If I'm thinking about this right, that's a mean voltage of 102.9 volts.

You can see the difference between the AC power supplied by the power company and the output of a modified sine wave inverter. Many things will run just fine on the modified sine wave, but some things don't like it. AC motors will be less efficient and run hotter. I don't have a true sine wave inverter, but I'll seriously consider one if I set up a solar power system.

Here's my oldest inverter. It's a 300 watt modified sine wave one, with a nice solid metal case.

Measurements: 156 V peak, 64.3 Hz frequency, 4.8ms on time, 2.9ms off time. Mean voltage 97.1 volts.

This one is way off in frequency. It also has a higher peak voltage but shorter on-time than the harbor freight inverter. I wanted to look at the waveforms for the inverters because I was wondering what the correct peak voltage and on/off durations were for a modified sine wave. It looks like this is not standardized, so now I'm left wondering what the optimal values are. I also wonder why all the inverters deliver a mean voltage of less than 120V?

Last inverter. This is a little 75 watt one with no fan.

Measurements: 130 V peak, 62.7 Hz frequency, 6.4ms on time, 1.6ms off time. Mean voltage 103.7 volts.

This has a really low peak voltage, but it also has by far the longest on time, so it still delivers an average of 103.7 volts. I have no EE training so I'm not really sure how that effects devices that expect to see a sine wave with 170 volts peak, but I really doubt this is an optimal waveform.

Last up is a Cyberpower 825VA UPS. This is a cheap UPS, but I assumed it would have better characteristics than the cheap inverters.

Measurements: 187 V peak, 60.8 Hz frequency, 3.1ms on time, 5.1ms off time. Mean voltage 70.1 volts.

Uhm, WTF is this? Look at the mess it makes whenever it switches. And the 0-volt level changes depending on whether it follows a positive or negative pulse. Peak voltage of 187V is higher than the peak voltage on the sine wave from the line, but duration is very short, so average voltage is only 70.1V.

I don't know what's going on here. A UPS like this will usually end up powering electronics (computers, etc) with switching power supplies. I know switching power supplies are usually very tolerant in the input they'll accept. Maybe high peak voltages are more efficient for switching supplies? Or maybe since it only comes on during power outages, they just got really lazy with the design of the inverter for this UPS?

FrogStash

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2015, 10:20:16 AM »
Any recommendations for a vendor?  I'm planning to solar power my shed.  At first I'll be running a light or (two, probably LED), a small radio and a box fan.  I won't use them often, and only need them for an hour or two at a time.

If it goes well, I'd may consider running some landscape lighting off it.

What happens when I run out of juice?  Obviously things will stop running, but will it damage any of the hardware?

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2015, 02:44:23 PM »
Any recommendations for a vendor?  I'm planning to solar power my shed.  At first I'll be running a light or (two, probably LED), a small radio and a box fan.  I won't use them often, and only need them for an hour or two at a time.

If it goes well, I'd may consider running some landscape lighting off it.

What happens when I run out of juice?  Obviously things will stop running, but will it damage any of the hardware?

I haven't bought any components yet, only researched off an on for a few years, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

If you have a local supplier of solar system components you might want to check with them. Solar panels are bulky and batteries are heavy, so shipping could be troublesome. For example, about 100 miles away from me is Northern Arizona Wind and Sun (http://www.solar-electric.com/), and if I were constructing a large solar system I'd probably buy parts from them.

For a small system, you can buy all the parts off of Amazon. Everything here has free shipping with Amazon Prime; you'll have to check shipping cost if you don't.

Main components:
100 watt solar panel, $122 (out of stock for now, maybe check back later) http://amzn.com/B00HTSVDAM
100 watt solar panel, $140 (this one is actually in stock) http://amzn.com/B00DCCOSV0
2X 35Ah deep cycle AGM batteries, $120 http://amzn.com/B007Q2CS46
A basic charge controller, $32  http://amzn.com/B00MB0N8K6
Inverter, $80 including cables and fuse, larger than you need http://amzn.com/B00T564EIY

Other things you'll need:
wire to connect solar panels to charge controller, $10 http://amzn.com/B00IFWKBIG
fuse and fuse holder for batteries, around $15, search for "ANL fuse" for one kind
if using more than 1 battery, wires to connect batteries together, $7 http://amzn.com/B003RCJB62 or http://amzn.com/B00JGJGIKW
wire to connect batteries to inverter (may be included with inverter depending on what you buy)

The AGM batteries are not ideal, but they should work for a small system. Large systems more often use big flooded batteries which you have to top off with distilled water occasionally.

The LED bulbs and a small radio will take very little power, they will be no problem. The box fan will use a lot more electricity and require a much larger inverter. You'll want to measure the power draw of the fan to see what size inverter you need. You can use a watt meter like this one ($18 http://amzn.com/B00009MDBU ); some libraries also loan these out. If you get a 12 V fan like this one http://amzn.com/B0000AY2Z6 then it doesn't have any impact on the inverter, only on what size battery you need.

The landscape lighting I'm not sure about. Is this LED or CFL bulbs? How many hours does it have to run for?

This might be a good opportunity to go with an all 12 V system and skip the inverter entirely. You'd need a 12 V box fan, 12 V LED lights, and possibly an adapter for your radio depending on what voltage it's expecting.

The inverter will automatically shut off when the battery is drained, so it will not cause any damage. Many charge controllers have a "load" connection for running 12V things which will also shut off when the battery gets low. However, lead acid batteries do not like to be deeply discharged. You can run them to dead a few times, but this will drastically shorten their life. It's better to size the system large enough that you never have to go below 50% on the batteries.

I have to make some assumptions here, so you'll want to re-work this with your own numbers, but this is how you calculate the requirements for solar panels, batteries, and an inverter. For each thing you're running, you need to know the continuous power required, peak power required, and total usage per day:

2 LED lights, 8W actual power use, running for 4 hours each day: 
2 * 8 W = 16 watts continuous usage
2 * 8 W = 16 watts peak usage
2 * 16 W * 4 hours = 64 Wh/day usage

1 box fan, 100 watts on high, maybe 1000 watts startup current, run for 2 hours each day:
100 watts continuous usage
1000 watts peak usage (motors require a high current for a couple seconds when they start up.)
100 W * 2 hours = 200 Wh/day usage

1 small radio, used 4 hours per day, 2 watts:
2 watts continuous usage
2 watts peak usage
2W * 4 hours = 8 Wh/day

6 LED landscape lights, 1W each, running for 8 hours each day:
6 * 1W = 6 watts continuous usage
6 * 1W = 6 watts peak usage
6W * 8 hours = 48 Wh/day

Adding everything together, your total power requirements are:
124 watts continuous
1024 watts peak
320 Wh/day

You can see that the fan is the biggest power hog here!

Sizing solar panels: You first need to know how much sunlight you get per day. Check a solar insolation map (http://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html) or table (http://www.eventhorizonsolar.com/insolation-window.html) DFW gets lots of sun, the equivalent of 5.4 hours direct sunlight on average each day, 6.0 in the summer, 4.8 in the winter. Let's go with the 5.4 average and we'll over-size the solar panels a little.

According to what we calculated above, your lights, fan, and radio will need 320 Wh/day. You have 5.4 hours of full sun on average in your location, so 320 Wh / 5.4 hours = 59 watts of solar panels required. This is practically nothing! Let's say you just need a single 100 watt solar panel, and you'll have a little extra capacity on average.

Sizing battery: this is also based on the 320 Wh/day number. Let's assume that all your power usage is at night. Watts = Volts * Amps, so 320 Wh/day with a 12 V battery is 27 Ah/day. Lead acid batteries don't like to be discharged below 50%, so 27 Ah * 2 = 54 Ah of batteries. This is assuming that you can recharge the batteries each day; if you want to store power over multiple days to account to cloudy weather you may want larger batteries. Amazon has 35 Ah batteries for a good price, so let's plan on 2 of those for 70 Ah in total.

Sizing inverter: this depends on the continuous and peak power requirements. You need 124 watts continuous, maybe as much as 1024 peak, mostly because of that box fan. You probably want a 500 or 600 watt inverter to handle the startup requirements of the fan. I'm going to be lazy and link a 1100 watt one because it includes cables and a fuse, but it's larger than you need.

Another thing to consider is that some AC motors do not like running on the cheaper modified sine wave inverters. They prefer the expensive true sine wave inverters. You may want to consider a 12V fan if it will work for you.

So for your shed power, this should be all you need (see Amazon links earlier in post):
$140 1x 100W solar panel
$120 2x 35Ah AGM batteries
$32 charge controller
$80 1100 watt inverter, includes cables and fuse
$10 MC4 extension cable, cut in half to wire solar panel to charge controller
$7 wire to connect two batteries together

total: $389

If you go for an all 12V system with a lower power fan and maybe run the lights for less time than I estimated, one battery with a 50W panel would probably be OK (all components still sourced from Amazon):
$90 50W solar panel
$63 35Ah AGM battery
$16 cheaper charge controller
$10 MC4 extension cable, cut in half to wire solar panel to charge controller
$15 fuse holder and fuse
$??? wiring and fuses to connect each 12V DC device

total: $194, not including wiring for 12V devices, not including DC box fan

As an alternative, Harbor Freight has a kit which includes 45W of panels, a bracket to hold them, a charge controller, and 2 LED lights. I bought one of these a few years ago, but haven't looked at them recently because they're a very poor value in terms of price per watt. However, they do include a few other things you would need like the charge controller, 12V LED lights and the mounting bracket.
$152 Harbor Freight 45W kit including panel, charge controller, bracket, and 2 LED lights ($190, use ubiquitous 20% coupon to get down to $152.)
$63 35Ah AGM battery from Amazon

total: $215, not including DC box fan

This post is a little disorganized since I'm writing it in little pieces during breaks at work. I'll stop back later and answer any questions.

jpdcpajd

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2015, 05:27:14 PM »
following

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar system?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2015, 07:14:26 PM »
Incidently I have found there to be a lot of correlation between developing a solar system and frugality. When you start looking at your energy budget to maximize efficiency and then compare personal finance budgeting for the same, there are a lot of philosophical parallels. I've been surprised there aren't more people in the forums who have seen the similarities  and have married the two pursuits together.
I think this statement has been percolating in the back of my mind, because I'm starting to see a LOT of similarity between setting up a solar system and setting up a budget.

The process to reduce spending goes something like this:
1) Track spending so you know where your money is going.
2) Create a budget to allocate your money between categories.
3) Examine budget to find unnecessary spending and trim it out.
4) Implement (start following) the budget you designed.

This directly corresponds to designing a solar power system:
1) Track electricity usage to see how much power you are using.
2) Make a list of all the electric devices you want to run and what the daily power requirement for each is.
3) Look at the list to see if there's anything which can changed to increase efficiency. This includes more efficient devices (LED light bulbs, newer refrigerator, etc), check for "energy vampires" that consume electricity when powered off and unplug them when not in use, turn off lights when you're not in the roof, add insulation to increase efficiency of HVAC, etc.
4) Implement solar system. Buy parts, assemble, enjoy.

This comparison also helps me to realize that I'm trying to create a budget without first tracking spending. I know from my electricity bills how much power I use every month, but I don't know how it's divided up. I think I have to get some real data on energy consumption of everything I might want to power from a solar system.



Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 05:32:28 PM »
I'm afraid that my post about planning a small solar power system may have made this look more complicated than it has to be. To show how simple it can be to set up a system with a single panel and battery, I dug out the 45 watt Harbor Freight solar power kit I bought a few years ago. I set it up in the back yard and timed myself: it took only 9 minutes to set up, including time to take pictures. Editing the pictures for this post took many times longer than setting up the components.

Step #1: Connect the inverter to the battery.

In a single step, you now have 120V electricity available! It's not renewable power yet though; it will last only until the battery runs out of charge. Maybe you're in the middle of nowhere and need to run a power drill or screwdriver to build a frame or stand for your solar panel. The inset in this picture is just showing the different connector I added to plug the inverter into the battery; later pictures will show the little connector in use instead of the big clamps.

Step #2: Set up solar panel(s)

This 45W kit from Harbor Freight actually contains 3 15W panels. It comes with a metal frame to hold all three panels. And yes, these solar panels are very dirty and need to be cleaned off.

Step #3: Connect solar panels to charge controller

Having 3 panels instead of 1 makes the wiring a little messier. If you were setting up a large system you would need to be careful of the voltage. With just 12 volts 45 watts here there's nothing to worry about. Shorting the solar panels isn't going to do them any harm, and you'd have to work really hard to electrocute yourself with 12 volts. (If you stab positive and negative electrodes through your skin in locations that create a path across your heat, you can kill yourself with absurdly low voltages and currents. So don't do that, OK?)

Step #4: Connect charge controller to battery

Now your solar panel can recharge the battery! Unlimited energy radiating from the sky free for the taking, now converted into a useful form.

This is what the complete system looks like. Not much to it:

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 03:06:38 PM »
I've been learning a lot about power inverters. Normally I prefer reading to videos, but this guy's YouTube channel has a lot of good information about inverters: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVktNhxFTBnrLfeIe1tdgSQ

This video is the one that led me to his channel; it explains total harmonic distortion of inverters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWAX1j-Swg4

This video explains how most of the cheap inverters actually produce a split phase voltage, 60V on hot and 60V on neutral, and explains why that makes it a very bad idea to hard-wire this kind of inverter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjuzyAujdC4

I'm pretty well convinced that I want a pure sine wave inverter rather than a modified sine wave one. Too bad they're so much more expensive. I'm undecided if it would be better to gamble on a cheap one from China, or pay 3 times more for one from a known good quality brand.

For 12V modified sine wave inverters, the Krieger brand looks like a really good value. This appears to be a new sub-brand from Power Bright, which seems a little sketchy to me (why create a new brand name for inverters when you already have a known one?), but the prices are very low, Amazon reviews are 100% positive so far, they have a long warranty, and the inverters come with cables, fuse holder, and fuse (inverter cables can be expensive!) Even though I'm pretty sure I want a 24V pure sine wave inverter ultimately, I'm tempted to buy one of the Krieger inverters to play with and to keep as a backup. Not a very efficient use of funds though, so I've resisted so far.

patrat

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 10:10:52 AM »
Definitely treat it as a hobby, and in that regard go as small as reasonable to learn about it and see if and what you like about it.

Solar ROI is coming down, but solar is still not a great choice financially when you have grid power for less than $0.20 a kwh. If you are offgrid or would have to pay for a new hookup, thats a whole different ballgame.

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2015, 04:38:25 PM »
Definitely treat it as a hobby, and in that regard go as small as reasonable to learn about it and see if and what you like about it.

I think you're right that I have to treat this as a hobby, and not ever worry about ROI. I think for me personally this is interesting and fun enough that it's worth playing with even assuming that it will never pay for itself. The only problem with treating this like a hobby is that I allow hobbies, home improvements, and tools more lenience than other budget categories, so I'll have to be careful not to go too overboard on spending.

I'm planning to post about my ongoing experiments with small scale solar power here. If anyone thinks this is too blog-like for the DIY forum please let me know and I'll stop. I'd also like to hear about anyone else's experience or experiments with solar power. It's more fun and more motivating if I'm not just talking to myself here.

I'm still focused on inverters at this point. Not sure why, since an inverter without batteries or solar panels isn't of much use. A week ago I mentioned that I couldn't decide if it was better to buy a cheap inverter or an expensive one from a known-reliable brand. I thought of a third option: try to find good deals on used inverters from a reliable brand.

Nothing shows up on Craigslist within 200 miles. eBay has lots of inverters for sale, and very rarely even some that appear to be good deals. Surprisingly, even broken inverters don't go all that cheaply most of the time. I put in a few bids, and ended up winning two different inverters. They're both true sine wave inverters. One is an old, heavy, and large 800 watt low-frequency inverter. Low frequency inverters have a huge transformer, handle surges better (good for starting AC motors), have a reputation for better reliability, but can be very inefficient at low loads. The other auction I won was for a 24V 1500 watt inverter listed as "customer return, untested." I'll have to see if I can fix whatever is wrong. I've never done electronics repair before, so it should be interesting. This one is a high frequency inverter, so it's smaller, lighter, and should be more efficient at low loads. I'll test both of these inverters and share the results here.

I've also been thinking about where on my property I could put solar panels. Three locations come to mind:
1) Location with best sun exposure is a few dozen feet away from the house. Would have to run wire underground. Panels would have to be mounted 10 or 15 feet above the ground to clear tree shadows.
2) West facing roof of my house. No sunlight in the morning, good sun exposure in the afternoon.
3) South facing spot just off my back porch. Shaded in the afternoon. May be shaded from the south in the winter when the sun is lower.

#1 is best, but would take a lot of work to get set up. I'm contemplating building 3 solar power monitors to place in the 3 locations and record how much sunlight each one actually sees. Shouldn't be too complicated to do with a tiny solar panel, microcontroller, and radio module.

Cutting down trees isn't an option because the trees to the south are on my neighbor's property (and they like the trees.)

a1smith

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2015, 10:27:04 PM »
Definitely treat it as a hobby, and in that regard go as small as reasonable to learn about it and see if and what you like about it.

Solar ROI is coming down, but solar is still not a great choice financially when you have grid power for less than $0.20 a kwh. If you are offgrid or would have to pay for a new hookup, thats a whole different ballgame.

Yes, hobby makes sense; doing it to save money almost always doesn't make sense at this time.

I've looked at the cost/benefit of grid-tied solar power installations for masters in energy systems engineering degree.  Even using solar insolation available in Houston, available government energy rebates, etc, etc, we were only able to barely reach break even.  You probably have better solar insolation profiles in AZ; you can get the data from NREL.

The main issue is the life of the AGM batteries we were using with the SOC (state of charge) profiles we had; we were only able to peak shave and couldn't sell back to the grid during the day to make money (charge batteries at night from grid, sell back cheaper electricity and solar when rates are higher.)  You can get longer life with Li-ion batteries but then initial cost is much higher.  At latitudes we checked north of Houston we did not break even.

We were looking at a bigger system - grid-tied, selling back to grid, peak shaving, deep cycling batteries, 15 min average load profiles we obtained from utilities, MPPT charge controllers, etc.

One comment for the hobby systems listed - I checked quickly so maybe I missed it but I did not see any discussion of using MPPT controllers to interface to the solar panels.  MPPT (Maximum power point tracking) controllers adjust the voltage of the interface to the solar panel so that you get the maximum power (V * I) from the solar panel.  Just google MPPT and you will find plenty about it.  You definitely need a MPPT controller if you want to optimize your solar panel output power.

Anomalous

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2015, 06:23:12 PM »
In a previous post I shared how I was confused about the different waveforms I saw on an oscilloscope for the modified sine wave inverters. I've learned a bit more since then, and understand better what is going on. Many of these inverters have no way to adjust the peak voltage the generate; it's always a multiple of the input battery voltage. So if the battery voltage sags (low voltage or high draw), the peak of the generated AC voltage also sags. In an attempt to maintain a constant RMS voltage, the inverter adjusts its output so for each cycle of the 60Hz modified sine wave the peak voltage is held on longer. This keeps the area under the curve more consistent. If the voltage drops too much on these inverters, they can actually start putting out a square wave instead of a modified sine wave (voltage goes straight from positive to negative with no time spent at the 0-volt level.)

I mentioned before I bought a couple used inverters off of eBay. I tested them to see how well they work and am finally getting around to posting the results now.

To test the used inverters I bought some new electrical tools, including a true RMS multimeter, a current sensing clamp probe, and a little pocket oscilloscope. This is a total of about $250 in tools. Definitely not an efficient use of money, but this is both entertainment and education for me, and these should be useful in the future. This is the pocket oscilloscope I bought: http://amzn.com/B00SXVUETU, and it's a really neat little thing. No regrets about getting this.

Here is a picture of the two used inverters I bought, plus the two deep-cycle batteries I used for testing.


Harbor Freight 400 watt
This is a small cheap modified sine wave inverter. They're listed for sale now at $25 each. Fuses are internal and soldered to the board, so be careful not to connect one backwards and blow the fuses as I did once; it's a pain to repair.
Surge: rated at 800W. In testing I observed 837W momentarily, and the inverter will power 480W for a minute with the alarm sounding. Unlike most cheap inverters, this one actually lives up to its surge rating.
Other notes: fan speed appears to vary based on load (not on temperature.) AC ground is tied directly to the battery ground.
Efficiency: no-load draw of 1.4 watts. Here's the efficiency curve I measured:

Not too bad! Of course depending on the load, a modified sine wave can be much less efficient than a true sine wave. Resistive loads are fine with the modified sine wave, others may or may not be.

Sensata Dimensions 12/800N
This is a huge, heavy inverter. Pure sine wave, low frequency inverter. Low frequency means that it generates the sine wave at low voltage, then steps it up to high voltage at 60Hz frequency. These tend to be more robust and have a better surge capacity than smaller high frequency inverters, but they're big and heavy and not as efficient.

I bought this used on eBay for $123 including shipping. It was used in a utility van, and is branded as a Sprint inverter. Buying one new costs about $1400, so I think I got a pretty good deal!

This is advertised as 800 watts continuous, 1560 watts peak. I was unable to test the maximum surge capacity because my batteries are inadequate, but I observed up to 1650 watts output. Powering an 800 watt load the fan doesn't even turn on. It will happily run a much higher load for quite a long time. It has no problem at all running any of these: refrigerator, window air conditioner, 850 watt toaster oven. I did manage to overload it trying to run my 1250 watt microwave, which actually draws 1950 watts on full power. This triggered the overload protection after a few seconds. This is a beast of an inverter, and will run all sorts of things that you would never think an 800 watt inverter can handle.

This inverter also generates a true 120V on hot, with ground and neutral tied together. That makes it compatible with normal house wiring, unlike many inverters that generate 60V on hot and 60V on neutral.

Here is the output waveform of this inverter, measured with my new pocket oscilloscope:

You can see that even at its maximum continuous load rating, it makes a very good sine wave. At 50% over the rated load the waveform is getting a little iffy.

Where this inverter falls down is efficiency. With no load on the inverter, it draws 30 watts. This would be 720 watt hours per day wasted just to keep the inverter running. Here's the efficiency graph based on my measurements:

Not very good at all. 80% efficiency is about the best it can ever do, and much lower than that at low power draws.

Cotek SK1500-124
This is a more modern design high frequency inverter. It is smaller, lighter, and more efficient. I bought it used on eBay for $146 including shipping. It was listed as "customer return, untested" but seems to work fine. I expected to have to do some repairs, which would have been interesting, but working perfectly is even better. It sells for about $500 new, so again I think I got a good deal. The Cotek inverters seem to be the same as Samlex inverters, which is a well-regarded brand.

The rated output on this inverter is 1500 watts continuous, 3000 watts surge. In testing I only saw it output about 2000 watts. This could be partly due to inadequate batteries, but it definitely doesn't handle surges as well as the low-frequency inverter. It also powers the refrigerator, window air conditioner, or toaster oven with no problem. It can NOT handle the 1250W microwave on full power (drawing 1950 watts.)

I don't have any screenshots of the output waveform, but it puts out a nice clean sine wave. Even under a 1428 watt load the output waveform looked good.

One thing I don't like about this inverter is that it puts out 60V on hot and 60V on neutral, instead of 120 on hot. This means that ground and neutral can not be tied together. It shouldn't matter for most things, but this inverter is not the kind that can be wired into a house.

It is quite efficient. It has a power save mode so the inverter will not turn on until a load is detected. This doesn't work with small loads though; they will not be detected and the inverter will stay off. On power save mode it draws 3.6 watts at no load, with power save disabled it draws 13.3 watts at no load. Here is the efficiency graph based on my measurements:

So much better than the Dimensions inverter! It peaks at over 90% efficiency. With a 50 watt load it's already at about 85% efficiency.

Here are the efficiency curves for the three inverters, from 0 to 100 watts:


That's all the inverter testing I plan to do. I really like the old, clunky, ugly Dimensions inverter in most ways, but its efficiency is bad. I can see why it's a good choice to put in a work vehicle though; efficiency wouldn't matter much there, and it's very robust. For a solar power system, especially one with batteries, I definitely want a more efficient inverter like to Cotek.

a1smith

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Re: Small scale solar power system?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2015, 07:34:05 PM »
I've also been thinking about where on my property I could put solar panels. Three locations come to mind:
1) Location with best sun exposure is a few dozen feet away from the house. Would have to run wire underground. Panels would have to be mounted 10 or 15 feet above the ground to clear tree shadows.
2) West facing roof of my house. No sunlight in the morning, good sun exposure in the afternoon.
3) South facing spot just off my back porch. Shaded in the afternoon. May be shaded from the south in the winter when the sun is lower.

#1 is best, but would take a lot of work to get set up. I'm contemplating building 3 solar power monitors to place in the 3 locations and record how much sunlight each one actually sees. Shouldn't be too complicated to do with a tiny solar panel, microcontroller, and radio module.

Cutting down trees isn't an option because the trees to the south are on my neighbor's property (and they like the trees.)

Ignoring the blockage of the trees, the best orientation for a stationary solar panel is south facing (Northern hemisphere) with the panel tilted from the horizontal by the same number of degrees as the latitude of the location.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 07:35:40 PM by a1smith »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!