Shelves and renting

[dodojojo]

I rent. I've rented all my life.  I have assiduously avoided drilling holes into walls and have always left an apartment on good terms.  I always get my deposit back.

But now I really want to put up some shelves on my completely unadorned walls.  What kind of footprint would some shelves leave behind?  Can I easily patch the holes and no one would be any wiser?

[melalvai]

We've put up shelves in the last few places we were at and either got the deposit back or if we didn't it was because the landlord went bankrupt (when the housing bubble burst).

If you patch the holes you'll have to paint. There was one place we lived in, the landlord had told us if we needed to touch anything up, there was extra paint in the basement. So I patched the holes and tried to touch it up-- well, she was wrong about the paint. It didn't match at all. She kept a good chunk of our deposit for repainting. Of course, she hadn't told us about the paint in the basement in writing, so there was no recourse.

I would check with your landlord and get it in writing.

[dodojojo]

I've been at the present apartment for over 7 years.  At what point does "wear and tear"usually come into play?  After long term rental situation, is the renter still responsible for old worn carpet and drab paint on the wall?  Neither of these things were new when I moved in.

[Daleth]

You can scrape off a piece of the paint (2 inches by 2 inches should suffice) and take it to your local Home Depot/Lowe's to match. They put it under a camera and the computer analyzes what color it is. It may also analyze the gloss or you could just analyze that with your own eyes. I've had good luck with this. You just get the smallest available container and bring it home, to have on hand when it's time to touch up.

[_JT]

Check your local codes, but most places small holes in the wall (from hanging pictures and shelves) are normal wear and tear, meaning a landlord can't deduct the repair of them from your deposit. Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave. I'd do it in a second.

[melalvai]

Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave.

That doesn't mean they won't be looking for an excuse not to return your deposit.

Honestly, most of the time we just assume we won't get our deposit back. Then we live our lives comfortably. I know that we are good tenants-- a small, quiet family, no wild parties, we don't damage stuff, and we pay the rent on time (or at most a few days late if we forget-- had some troubles with automated payments at one point). But we've had some doozies of landlords including 2 who went bankrupt.

[_JT]

Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave.

That doesn't mean they won't be looking for an excuse not to return your deposit.

Honestly, most of the time we just assume we won't get our deposit back. Then we live our lives comfortably. I know that we are good tenants-- a small, quiet family, no wild parties, we don't damage stuff, and we pay the rent on time (or at most a few days late if we forget-- had some troubles with automated payments at one point). But we've had some doozies of landlords including 2 who went bankrupt.

I'm with you there. Which is why I show up to the inspection after I vacate with a copy of the state landlord tenant code, as is my right under TN law. I'm a pain in the ass about not letting my landlords use shady business practices to rip me off.

[Daleth]

Check your local codes, but most places small holes in the wall (from hanging pictures and shelves) are normal wear and tear, meaning a landlord can't deduct the repair of them from your deposit. Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave. I'd do it in a second.

It also depends on the lease. Some leases (like the one I have with my tenants) say no hanging stuff that requires nails/screws without my permission.

[oldladystache]

I think every tenant I've had nailed things to the wall. I always painted between tenants and it was easy to patch the small holes. I almost always gave the full deposit back, too, with interest. The only time I didn't was when they went out of their way to damage the place, like kicking in doors. Or left without paying the rent.

Now that I'm old I'm glad to be out of that business. I'm even tired of taking care of my own house.

[_JT]

Check your local codes, but most places small holes in the wall (from hanging pictures and shelves) are normal wear and tear, meaning a landlord can't deduct the repair of them from your deposit. Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave. I'd do it in a second.

It also depends on the lease. Some leases (like the one I have with my tenants) say no hanging stuff that requires nails/screws without my permission.

Are you certain of the legality of such a clause?

[Daleth]

Check your local codes, but most places small holes in the wall (from hanging pictures and shelves) are normal wear and tear, meaning a landlord can't deduct the repair of them from your deposit. Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave. I'd do it in a second.

It also depends on the lease. Some leases (like the one I have with my tenants) say no hanging stuff that requires nails/screws without my permission.

Are you certain of the legality of such a clause?

In my state, yes. Perhaps other states have laws that address this but logically I can't see why it would be illegal for a property owner to tell a property renter that they can't put holes in the property and if they do the repair cost will come out of the deposit.

[Eric]

Are your walls white?  It's amazing what a little toothpaste can do to make it look like there was never a hole there...

[MicroRN]

It isn't written in the lease?  Most places I've lived have specified things like no holes larger than a quarter inch, or that you have to patch any holes you make.  The last place we rented was a big complex.  Any holes under 1/4 inch you could leave, any over 1/4 inch you had to neatly spackle, but they painted between tenants so you didn't have to repaint.  Carpets were replaced every 7 years, so if it was due to be replaced and you damaged it, it weren't charged.  Another apartment just stated that any damages would come out of the deposit.  We put up bookshelves that needed an anchor at the top, but still got our whole security deposit back.  I guess it was minor enough that it was considered normal use. 

I'm also with melalvai.  I don't worry about the security deposit.  We treat rentals like our own - take good care of the property, pay our rent, maintain the lawn, but it's not a museum.  I expect to be able to live places without freaking out about a scratch in the paint or a few nail holes.  I don't think I've ever lost more then $50 out of the deposit though.   

[dodojojo]

Thanks for all the advice so far.  Long story short, my cats are fighting and I'm looking into ways to lessen tension.  Currently they have to be separated in my small apartment.  I do have the lease somewhere...it's a little chaotic right now as the apartment is divided and I have litter boxes in the living room and bedroom--not ideal.

I'm being optimistic and one day my cats will be reconciled!  For that day, I'm looking into maximize space for them.  I can't squeeze in another giant cat tree so I'm thinking about installing shelves and giving them more vertical space.  So the shelves will have to hold up for a couple of 11/12 pound cats jumping around.  I imagine there will be some sizeable holes in the wall.  I may start another thread about where I can install a 2nd litter box...(the pre-fight setup was one giant box under the bathroom sink)

It's either being creative with the current space or moving to a bigger apartment and increasing the rent by $250-600.  But something has to be done because it kills me that my sibling cats are no longer getting along. 

[_JT]

Check your local codes, but most places small holes in the wall (from hanging pictures and shelves) are normal wear and tear, meaning a landlord can't deduct the repair of them from your deposit. Given how long you've been there, they'll almost certainly be required to paint when you leave. I'd do it in a second.

It also depends on the lease. Some leases (like the one I have with my tenants) say no hanging stuff that requires nails/screws without my permission.

Are you certain of the legality of such a clause?

In my state, yes. Perhaps other states have laws that address this but logically I can't see why it would be illegal for a property owner to tell a property renter that they can't put holes in the property and if they do the repair cost will come out of the deposit.

Holes, for sure. But hanging pictures and shelves with wall anchors is pretty firmly under 'normal wear and tear' in my last two states of residence (CA and TN), unless my memory is failing. Which, let's be honest, it does sometimes.

[dodojojo]

It took me a while to get around to it but I trooped out to Ikea and Home Depot this weekend and got ready to rumble with shelving.   A friend very kindly provided me with all the tools.

I'm embarrassed to say it took me all Sunday to put up two shelves and a bookcase.  Geez, this is why I rent...To cut some slack, I've never done anything more than pound in small nails to hang calendars and applied adhesive hooks.  So it took me forever to find a way to use the drill.  Why is it on Youtube all those folks can drill screws into the walls in nanoseconds?  I couldn't get it right so I ended up drilling holes and then used a screwdriver to screw everything in.  I also struggled with the stud sensor as I was never sure if it was accurate.  I scanned and scanned dozens of times before I was confident there was a stud behind the wall.  I actually ended up confirming by unscrewing the faceplate of an electrical outlet and saw the stud on the side.  The biggest time consuming worry was when I'd use the metal and AC scanning modes.  I struggled with drilling in certain areas because I deathly afraid I was going to hit a pipe or wiring.  And the scanner kept finding metal on the studs I wanted to use!  I finally decided to take a chance and put up the two shelves as I figured (and prayed) the "metal" detected were nails in the studs.

Today, I'm going to put up 4 shelves in the bedroom.  It was puzzling for awhile as one wall seemed to have studs every 24 inches while the other walls were spaced 16.  Yep, another hour googling and being confounded.  It seems if a wall is non-weight bearing, 24 inches is pretty standard.

Ok, so here's a question.  My preference is to use the non-weight bearing wall.  But my shelves aren't wide enough for the 24 inch studs.  If I attach the shelves to studs one end and wall anchors to the other--would the support be same as using two studs?  If there is a noticeable drop-off in support, I may need to use the wall with 16 inch studs.

[soccerluvof4]

No, it would not be as strong as stud to stud. Depending on how heavy of objects you are putting on there is the difference maker.  But preferably go stud to stud when it works out.

[dodojojo]

The shelves are for the cats, both of whom aren't that heavy.  They are no more than 12 pounds.  But they would be jumping on the shelves.

[horsepoor]

You should be fine going into one stud and using a drill-in wall anchor on the non-stud side.

[dodojojo]

Hmmmm...I couldn't drill into the studs.  I did whatever worked in my living room but the drill would stop turning after going through the surface.  I wonder if they were metal studs?  When I set the scanner to detect metal, it would beep all the way up and down on a stud.  That didn't happen in the living room.

I tested by screwing in the biggest screw (almost 2 inches?) and it did go all the way through unlike the drill.  But it just didn't feel right.  I didn't feel like I was screwing into wood.

So I ended up using anchors for all three shelves. Is that too risky?

[Milspecstache]

Generally if you can't drill into a stud it is because there is a nail plate there.  Not sure why that would exist over the entire length of stud, though...

Anchors will probably hold the weight of cat.  If it does fail you can easily patch the wall.  How hard would the paint be to match?

[dodojojo]

The entire apartment is painted white (or slightly off-white)--that's not hard to match right?  I've been here for 8 years and I know the apartment wasn't painted when the last tenant left.  They basically vacuumed and I moved in.

[Greg]

Metal studs are pretty easy to put a screw into. How old is the building?  Some old buildings' framing can be rock hard.  Or your drill bit might be sharp enough to go through wall board or plaster, but not wood.

[dodojojo]

CJ, that's very nice work.  I'd love to add additional shelf space to my bathroom.  Right, now I have everything in a basket on top of the toilet.  Unfortunately, the only available wall space is a narrow strip above the toilet.  Frankly, I'm done with drilling.  I'm definitely never going to be a HGTV star...

Metal studs are pretty easy to put a screw into. How old is the building?  Some old buildings' framing can be rock hard.  Or your drill bit might be sharp enough to go through wall board or plaster, but not wood.

The building was built in the 80's--badly.  I used the drill bit to bore holes through wood studs in the living room though and it worked fine.  There's just something different in the bedroom.

Funny I heard a drill going in another apartment today.  And I heard the same sound I had from the bedroom--drill going through initially followed by stubborn stuttering stop.  I wonder if they found the same type of studs... 

[Poe]

I solved this problem by getting some cement blocks and planks. Cost me barely anything, takes no room in a moving truck and will probably last a life-time. Also, I think it looks pretty badass!
I once had an apartment will deep green walls, the gray blocks looked amazing in contrast. Here, It stands in the entrance of my previous apartment. It does end up being pretty big, but whenever I had roommates I suggested they put their stuff in as well. Now I share it with my partner, we put several crawling plants in it, and it never looked so good! 

[dodojojo]

Poe, that brings back memories of my best friend's apartment in the 1980's.  Her father also used cinder blocks to build an entertainment center in the living room.

I wonder if the weight of the cinder blocks will warp that area of the floor?  I'm interested in using your idea for my closet.  The priority was to build shelves for the cats and once I bumbled my way through that task, I said "no mas."  I didn't mention that I had also purchased shelves for my closet.  I gave up the installation as I couldn't figure out the readings of the stud/metal/electrical scanner.  I think my closet backs the bathroom of another apartment and after a couple of problematic drills, I gave up the ghost.

I noticed that the one long shelf sits on a two by four system built into the closet wall.  So the shelf isn't attached to the studs directly.  I wonder if there is a reason for that and why I had problems with the scanner and drilling?  I wanted to build another level of shelves because there is so much wasted vertical space.

Hmmm...I guess another solution would be to place a lightweight bookshelf on the current shelf and that would give me a couple of additional "shelves?"

[Greg]

The building was built in the 80's--badly.  I used the drill bit to bore holes through wood studs in the living room though and it worked fine.  There's just something different in the bedroom.

Funny I heard a drill going in another apartment today.  And I heard the same sound I had from the bedroom--drill going through initially followed by stubborn stuttering stop.  I wonder if they found the same type of studs...

Maybe it's a concrete or block wall, not wood frame?