Author Topic: Sagging shelving  (Read 6106 times)

jeromedawg

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Sagging shelving
« on: January 21, 2016, 11:35:07 AM »
Hey guys,

I installed shelving against a recessed wall area a while back. It's very simple - 1x8 planks of pine wood with 3x3 galvanized steel elbow brackets (4 under each) to hold them up. Problem is that the shelves are sagging with weight. I'm thinking the elbow brackets I have maybe are too short at 3"?

Would it help if I put elbow brackets on the other side above the shelf to "pull" the shelves up?

Any ideas?

therethere

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 11:49:23 AM »
Yes, your brackets are way too small especially for the weight of books. What would help more than adding brackets to the side is to add a front edge (think 1x2 or 2x2 strip) attached to the front or under the shelf all the way across. The edging strip adds more rigidity. It may not be the aesthetic you're looking for with more floating type shelves but it would help. I tend to overbuild but shoot to have my brackets go at least ~2/3rd the depth of the shelf.

For future reference, here is a handy calculator for shelf sagging. http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

zephyr911

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 11:52:58 AM »
Oh, yeah. Bigger brackets, even a strip of wood under the front edge of each.

BDWW

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 12:06:37 PM »
There are of course tons of different options, longer brackets would probably work fine.

Personally, I avoid angle brackets whenever possible. And your situation looks like a prime opportunity to get rid of them.
Since it's recessed, there's no reason you can't fully support the shelves. I would add boards on the ends, and at the center point to create a fully boxed system.

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Not sure that'll show up, but maybe you get the idea.

Fishindude

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 12:19:18 PM »
You are using the wrong piece of hardware for the job.  Those are corner braces, not shelf brackets, they are not designed for that application.
I'm surprised it hasn't fully collapsed.

Look up shelf brackets and standards on line, many choices.  Stanley hardware makes a whole bunch of them.
Any reputable lumber yard, hardware store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. will have some to choose from.

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2016, 12:23:36 PM »
There are of course tons of different options, longer brackets would probably work fine.

Personally, I avoid angle brackets whenever possible. And your situation looks like a prime opportunity to get rid of them.
Since it's recessed, there's no reason you can't fully support the shelves. I would add boards on the ends, and at the center point to create a fully boxed system.

------
|  |  |
------
|  |  |
------
|  |  |
------

Not sure that'll show up, but maybe you get the idea.

Very interesting. That sounds like an idea but I'd definitely lose a bit of space in doing so right?

The odd thing about this "recessed area" is that it used to be a full-on cut out "window" that opened up to look into the living room (pretty strange). I decided to create a frame (out of 2x4s), pushed it into the space and secured it, covered with drywall on both sides and did the finishing touches to patch it up and paint over. It's mostly turned out functional and adds more privacy to the den (which is where the pics were taken from). I was just trying to figure out how to make the area more functional. That said, because of the way the cut-out was designed, it was a bit of challenge figuring out how to actually secure it.

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 12:25:14 PM »
You are using the wrong piece of hardware for the job.  Those are corner braces, not shelf brackets, they are not designed for that application.
I'm surprised it hasn't fully collapsed.

Look up shelf brackets and standards on line, many choices.  Stanley hardware makes a whole bunch of them.
Any reputable lumber yard, hardware store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. will have some to choose from.

Thanks! Will look that up. Yea, I'm pretty 'hackey' when it comes down to stuff like this. I guess I take after my dad, but the types of things he does would probably make some of you guys vomit in your mouths (figuratively speaking of course LOL!)

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2016, 12:29:34 PM »
Hmm, maybe I ought to consider floating shelves in this case... i'm trying to figure out how to maximize the space without having an awkward bracket sticking from the wall.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:38:10 PM by jplee3 »

BDWW

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2016, 12:44:29 PM »
You would lose a bit of space, but it's perfectly doable with 1 by (3/4) stock.

So with 3 braces along the length, you'll lose 2 1/4 inches.

As I said, I dozen ways to skin a cat. I'd still use a center brace, but you could just attach the ends with cleats. essentially, a small block of wood in the underside corner that is screwed to the outside wall, and then into the shelf.

------------------
__|

Since you know the structure of this recess, it provides even more opportunity.

If you were feeling really ambitious, you could remove the drywall from the inside, and create a full-fledged built-in. Assuming half inch drywall, you'd only lose a 1/4 inch on either side.

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2016, 01:01:32 PM »
You would lose a bit of space, but it's perfectly doable with 1 by (3/4) stock.

So with 3 braces along the length, you'll lose 2 1/4 inches.

As I said, I dozen ways to skin a cat. I'd still use a center brace, but you could just attach the ends with cleats. essentially, a small block of wood in the underside corner that is screwed to the outside wall, and then into the shelf.

------------------
__|

Since you know the structure of this recess, it provides even more opportunity.

If you were feeling really ambitious, you could remove the drywall from the inside, and create a full-fledged built-in. Assuming half inch drywall, you'd only lose a 1/4 inch on either side.

I think I see what you mean with the braces/cleats at the side ends. I would only be able to secure this cleat on the very edges perhaps because I don't think there's another stud in between this area of the wall. I might have to drill some pilot holes in different places to know for sure to avoid playing the bigger guessing game. Perhaps I should invest in one of those pocket hole guides as well.

As far as removing the drywall from the inside, I could do that but it would expose all the 2x4s and if I wanted to make it a "usable" surface I'd have to extend the 2"~ border height out probably by 2 times, and I'd lose 2" all around I think.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 01:11:16 PM by jplee3 »

BDWW

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 01:25:43 PM »
You would lose a bit of space, but it's perfectly doable with 1 by (3/4) stock.

So with 3 braces along the length, you'll lose 2 1/4 inches.

As I said, I dozen ways to skin a cat. I'd still use a center brace, but you could just attach the ends with cleats. essentially, a small block of wood in the underside corner that is screwed to the outside wall, and then into the shelf.

------------------
__|

Since you know the structure of this recess, it provides even more opportunity.

If you were feeling really ambitious, you could remove the drywall from the inside, and create a full-fledged built-in. Assuming half inch drywall, you'd only lose a 1/4 inch on either side.

I think I see what you mean with the braces/cleats at the side ends. I would only be able to secure this cleat on the very edges perhaps because I don't think there's another stud in between this area of the wall. I might have to drill some pilot holes in different places to know for sure to avoid playing the bigger guessing game. Perhaps I should invest in one of those pocket hole guides as well.

As far as removing the drywall from the inside, I could do that but it would expose all the 2x4s and if I wanted to make it a "usable" surface I'd have to extend the 2"~ border height out probably by 2 times, and I'd lose 2" all around I think.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  In the simplest terms, you'd just be replacing the drywall with wood.

In doing a built in, a shelf unit is built that is pretty much the dimensions of the cavity, usually with a slight allowance that can be shimmed to make sure it will fit.  Then the unit is slid into the cavity, and attached (screwed into place). Then trim is usually added to the outside to marry it with the drywall and cover any gaps.

So the built in has only marginally smaller interior dimensions than the cavity with drywall in it.  The upside, is that you can build the wood to wood joinery as strong as you wish. You can use housing dadoes, cleats, dowels, dominoes, hell even sliding dovetails if you were so inclined :)

Another aspect to consider, is whether straight wood is the material you want to use. Wood's strength is directional. It is fairly weak at supporting loads when laid flat with the grain. A number of manufactured products seek to remedy this (with their own pros and cons).   It would look worse, but a 3/4 piece of decent plywood for instance, would be more rigid in your current setup.

BDWW

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 01:30:32 PM »
I'm probably inundating you with information, so let me know how far down the rabbit hole you want to go*.


*Or just buy longer brackets and call it good :)

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 01:37:26 PM »
You would lose a bit of space, but it's perfectly doable with 1 by (3/4) stock.

So with 3 braces along the length, you'll lose 2 1/4 inches.

As I said, I dozen ways to skin a cat. I'd still use a center brace, but you could just attach the ends with cleats. essentially, a small block of wood in the underside corner that is screwed to the outside wall, and then into the shelf.

------------------
__|

Since you know the structure of this recess, it provides even more opportunity.

If you were feeling really ambitious, you could remove the drywall from the inside, and create a full-fledged built-in. Assuming half inch drywall, you'd only lose a 1/4 inch on either side.

I think I see what you mean with the braces/cleats at the side ends. I would only be able to secure this cleat on the very edges perhaps because I don't think there's another stud in between this area of the wall. I might have to drill some pilot holes in different places to know for sure to avoid playing the bigger guessing game. Perhaps I should invest in one of those pocket hole guides as well.

As far as removing the drywall from the inside, I could do that but it would expose all the 2x4s and if I wanted to make it a "usable" surface I'd have to extend the 2"~ border height out probably by 2 times, and I'd lose 2" all around I think.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  In the simplest terms, you'd just be replacing the drywall with wood.

In doing a built in, a shelf unit is built that is pretty much the dimensions of the cavity, usually with a slight allowance that can be shimmed to make sure it will fit.  Then the unit is slid into the cavity, and attached (screwed into place). Then trim is usually added to the outside to marry it with the drywall and cover any gaps.

So the built in has only marginally smaller interior dimensions than the cavity with drywall in it.  The upside, is that you can build the wood to wood joinery as strong as you wish. You can use housing dadoes, cleats, dowels, dominoes, hell even sliding dovetails if you were so inclined :)

Another aspect to consider, is whether straight wood is the material you want to use. Wood's strength is directional. It is fairly weak at supporting loads when laid flat with the grain. A number of manufactured products seek to remedy this (with their own pros and cons).   It would look worse, but a 3/4 piece of decent plywood for instance, would be more rigid in your current setup.

Hahaha, I'm probably confusing myself in addition to being confused. Perhaps more pictures will clear things up:

https://goo.gl/photos/6QbY1L3gov9n9ese7

The 4th picture from the left on the top row (I think) shows the 'inner frame' I built to sit inside the open area (and eventually to support putting drywall over. If I were to open it back up, I'd be faced those those ugly studs in the frame and what not.

BDWW

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 02:35:24 PM »
I just went and snapped some pics of a couple areas in my house. Note, these were here when I moved in, they're not up to my standards quality-wise, but they show the concepts.

First two are of a built in recess, and the last is a cleat system.

jeromedawg

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2016, 03:02:48 PM »
Thanks for the ideas! (Agh I hate how all posted images blow up to *full* size)

This gives me an idea if I want to try the cleats out. Maybe I can just buy MDF and cut it to exact size/dimensions of a shelf that would sit flush to the opening (instead of how the current shelves are slight recessed by an inch). And for the cleats, I could just use the current shelving (since it's solid wood) and cut those down to size to make the cleats. Of course, I should probably also paint everything too, as it looks pretty ugly as-is. My wife has been getting on my tail about all these half-azzed home projects I've been doing (lol, I have a pull out rolling pantry [next to the fridge] that still needs to be built and assembled). I just suck at woodworking and making even the most basic cuts cleanly.

lthenderson

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Re: Sagging shelving
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2016, 04:06:46 PM »
Rather than use cleating which I think looks ugly, I prefer to use nosing to stiffen the shelves up. It makes them look thicker and more appealing and prevents them from sagging. It also hides the underneath sides of your shelving brackets when  you put them on instead of corner brackets. My library shelves in my basement are all done this way and span 24" using 3/4" plywood and a 1.5" nose glued to the front edge and only supported on the ends. Below is a good picture showing what I mean. I don't use a stiffener as indicated in the photo.

http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TFH/Step-By-Step/FH10MAR_SUCMDF_11.JPG