Sagging Door Fix

[KYFIRE]

The front door on my house is sagging and I'm not sure how to fix it.  I've tried new hinges but really no change (this helped our rear door).  I'm wondering if the hinge itself is just too weak as the door feels fairly heavy being glass and steel.  I just put in some I got at Lowe's so quality maybe not so good.  I've found the Penrod brand but just because they're priced more doesn't really mean they're better.  Anyone have luck with them?  Or any other suggestions for a better quality hinge?

After that I'm not sure what to do.  Because there are fixed lights on both sides of the doors I can't use really long screws to draw the hinge in more.  If hinges don't work I'm going to look at doing shims.  It's gotten so bad I can see light coming in the corner.

I'll try to get picture tonight.

Thanks

[Papa bear]

Picture is worth a thousand words here.

Is your jamb on the hinge side plumb? If it’s not, that’s your issue.  That is the most important side on a door. 

Are all of your hinges mortised into the jamb and the door?  They should all be, unless you’re out of plumb and you want to try and adjust it by shimming behind a hinge. I’ve done that on interior doors with anything from wood shims to scraps of cardboard. 
If you need to draw a hinge in more, get out the chisel and cut out more wood so it sits further back.

If you have a hinge where the screws aren’t holding, get some wood glue and toothpicks and shove them in the holes in the jamb. After it’s packed full and dries/cures, screw it back in.  You don’t need longer screws. 


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[J Boogie]

The hinges themselves are rarely the problem. I've never seen a hinge with enough play in it to make a difference regarding door saggage. Might be more likely your rear door issue got fixed if the new hinges came with larger screws that got more purchase in the jamb and/or door.

If your new top hinge screws have solid purchase and aren't being pulled loose by the weight of the door, then Papa Bear's jamb out-of-plumb theory is the most likely.

[KYFIRE]

Yeah, sorry about that.  I had to wait until the sun went down more otherwise washed out picture.

Yes, all hinges are mortised and when I replaced the hinges last time I made sure I had a good bite for the screws.

I wouldn't doubt it's out of plumb given all the other things that I've found in this house.

[Papa bear]

I would use shims to bring out the hinge on the bottom and then “maybe” take a bit of material out of the top one to bring the door back up.  But put a level on it to check to see how much to do. 


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[Greystache]

Get a framing square and find out if the door is square and if the frame is square. If the door is square and the frame is not, then shimming the hinges, like other have suggested, should work.  If the door is not square, i.e. sagging, you can try trimming the door, but will probably need a new door if it continues to sag.  You mentioned that the hinge screws seemed to have a firm bite. If the frame is week or not properly attache to the studs, you could experience sagging. You could try longer screws that go through the frame and into studs.

[Papa bear]

Get a framing square and find out if the door is square and if the frame is square. If the door is square and the frame is not, then shimming the hinges, like other have suggested, should work.  If the door is not square, i.e. sagging, you can try trimming the door, but will probably need a new door if it continues to sag.  You mentioned that the hinge screws seemed to have a firm bite. If the frame is week or not properly attache to the studs, you could experience sagging. You could try longer screws that go through the frame and into studs.

Look at the picture. Its a door with side lights.  There’s no structure to get into.  Hinges have to go in the jamb here.  And short of pulling it out to rehang the entire thing, fixing it is going to have to be small changes.   Though if It’s out of plumb and square really bad, that might be the best option.

Replacing the entire door unit would be pricey. 


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[Artem_F]

from what I see on the screen, it's the upper hinge, which is a bit loose. Try inserting a wedge in the upper left corner to move the door back to the right - I believe, you will see where the play comes from.

[KYFIRE]

Thanks for all the replies.

Artem_F - When I replaced the hinges the first time, they were tighter than the old ones, but the new ones had more play than I would have expected.  That's where I was wondering if anyone knew of a better brand/quality hinge I could get.  It's a fairly heavy door (glass and steel exterior) so not sure the Lowes grade hinges are sufficient.

I try wedging the corner or have the wife do it to see if there is more movement. 

Like Papa Bear said, little repairs because of the lights and hopefully avoid replacement for a while because last search was around $7k to replace with similar.

[Papa bear]

Thanks for all the replies.

Artem_F - When I replaced the hinges the first time, they were tighter than the old ones, but the new ones had more play than I would have expected.  That's where I was wondering if anyone knew of a better brand/quality hinge I could get.  It's a fairly heavy door (glass and steel exterior) so not sure the Lowes grade hinges are sufficient.

I try wedging the corner or have the wife do it to see if there is more movement. 

Like Papa Bear said, little repairs because of the lights and hopefully avoid replacement for a while because last search was around $7k to replace with similar.

I’ve never seen a hinge fail on an exterior door.  And most exterior doors are heavy! Unless you got some random faulty hinge or something, I’d say that’s probably not the issue.


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[sonofsven]

That's a tough one due to the sidelight. When installing new doors I always remove one screw from the top jamb hinge and replace with a long (3" min) screw into the framing, this brings them right into place.
Your hinges should not have slop. At this point your hinge location might be shot due to the screw holes being too loose to hold the screws. You could remove the door and reset the top hinge above it's current location then measure and reset the jamb side, too
Don't overdrive the screws, either. 

[NaN]

If you remove the door, check the hinge side with a straight edge.

My observation: between the bottom and middle hinges the gap between the door and frame looks good. Between the middle and top it looks to widen up a bit. I doubt that's due to a hinge being loose. If you look on the latch side same thing. Gap from floor to latch is pretty good. Then from latch up it closes up like on the other side. If it was a straight edge on both sides it should be more uniform widening or closing in from top to bottom. I doubt those edges are perfectly straight

I don't know who made your door but I think it was door craftsmanship rather than your fault in trying to fix it.

[lthenderson]

I agree with Papa Bear on this one. I have never seen a hinge that caused that much sagging. In the picture, it looks as if you have no gap on the bottom of the hinge side and a large gap on the top of the hinge side. On the other side this is exactly reversed. Assuming all the screws on the hinges are nice and tight, you need to mortice in the top hinge a bit deeper and perhaps shim out the bottom hinge. If the screws aren't tight, they need to be before doing anything. That may mean something as simple as the glue and toothpick method mentioned above, using longer or bigger screws or cutting out and replacing chewed up portions of the jamb with patches.

[secondcor521]

An alternative to the glue and toothpick method that I did once or twice and worked very well for me:  Buy a 1/4" dowel.  Remove the door hinge.  Drill out the existing screw holes with a 1/4" drill bit.  Cut short lengths of dowel.  Cover the dowels in wood glue then insert into the holes you just drilled out.  You may need to use a hammer to tap them in until they are flush.  Wait for the glue to dry.  Re-drill new screw pilot holes with very small drill bit (1/32" or something).  Then reinstall hinge and screws.

Now that I write that out, I can see that it's more involved and time consuming that the glue and toothpick method.  But it works really well for ensuring that the screws and hinges are secure.

[KYFIRE]

Thanks everyone for the replies.  I'll check out the plumb of the door and frame, see what I can do there.  All the hinge screws had good bite when I replaced the hinges, and I drove as long as I could screw in each hinge so I don't think that's where the issue lies.  I've never morticed out a door so that'll be fun to try as the next step!

I would suspect given how the previous owners/builders selected their doors and windows that craftsmanship might be an issue.  I already need to replace many windows and replaced the basement patio door too.  I think they focused on cabinets and counter tops and then maybe cheaped by the time they got to the windows and doors. 

[Dicey]

Nice door! I hope you can find a workable solution so it can be saved.

[Papa bear]

Thanks everyone for the replies.  I'll check out the plumb of the door and frame, see what I can do there.  All the hinge screws had good bite when I replaced the hinges, and I drove as long as I could screw in each hinge so I don't think that's where the issue lies.  I've never morticed out a door so that'll be fun to try as the next step!

I would suspect given how the previous owners/builders selected their doors and windows that craftsmanship might be an issue.  I already need to replace many windows and replaced the basement patio door too.  I think they focused on cabinets and counter tops and then maybe cheaped by the time they got to the windows and doors.

Just watch a couple YouTube videos on it.  It’s not hard.  A sharp chisel makes the job a lot easier and faster, but I’m normally using the half dull “demo chisels” that I keep in my tool bag. 

Check for plumb, preferably with a 4’ level.  See how much you’re out.  Maybe 1/4” over the 4’? Split the difference and take out 1/8 up top, and shim with a 1/8 down below.  Hang the door.  See if it’s better.  If not, take a little more up top or add a little more down below.

As for the dowel method or patching the jamb, yeah, that’s far superior. But a much bigger pain the in the butt to do.  Years ago when smoking was much more popular, the old timers would just shove used matchsticks in the holes.  I’ve even been out at places and shaved off pieces of twig with a utility knife and that’s worked too.  Now if you split your jamb with too big of a screw, then you’re going to have to glue and clamp or patch in a new piece.


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[Bird In Hand]

We had the same issue on our front entry door.  I was able to fix it by removing the top and bottom hinge pins, slightly bending the door-side hinge knuckles at the top of the door away from the hinge jam, and bending them toward the hinge side at the bottom.  Then I was able to lift the door to bring the knuckles back into alignment -- with the door square in the frame -- and reinsert the pins.

I can't remember where I learned that technique, but it worked well.  The fix took 20 minutes and it remains fixed 3 years later.  I suppose the hinges might slowly bend back over time, but it hasn't been an issue thus far.

[Sibley]

We had the same issue on our front entry door.  I was able to fix it by removing the top and bottom hinge pins, slightly bending the door-side hinge knuckles at the top of the door away from the hinge jam, and bending them toward the hinge side at the bottom.  Then I was able to lift the door to bring the knuckles back into alignment -- with the door square in the frame -- and reinsert the pins.

I can't remember where I learned that technique, but it worked well.  The fix took 20 minutes and it remains fixed 3 years later.  I suppose the hinges might slowly bend back over time, but it hasn't been an issue thus far.

I am concerned that you were ABLE to bend the hinges, but perhaps you used a vice grip and applied leverage.

[Bird In Hand]

We had the same issue on our front entry door.  I was able to fix it by removing the top and bottom hinge pins, slightly bending the door-side hinge knuckles at the top of the door away from the hinge jam, and bending them toward the hinge side at the bottom.  Then I was able to lift the door to bring the knuckles back into alignment -- with the door square in the frame -- and reinsert the pins.

I can't remember where I learned that technique, but it worked well.  The fix took 20 minutes and it remains fixed 3 years later.  I suppose the hinges might slowly bend back over time, but it hasn't been an issue thus far.

I am concerned that you were ABLE to bend the hinges, but perhaps you used a vice grip and applied leverage.

Lol, IIRC I just used a fairly large adjustable wrench.  It wasn't very difficult!