Author Topic: Replacing outside lighting  (Read 3443 times)

jeromedawg

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Replacing outside lighting
« on: August 06, 2016, 10:51:46 PM »
Hey all,

I have a a couple fixtures in our yard that are the older style lampholder sockets with the globe sconces (these kinds of globes - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Newport-Coastal-Black-Coastal-Outdoor-Globe-Light-7791-03B/203355708 - not the fixture though: ours is super-dated compared to the pic). In either case, they are not very bright in general. Our small yard/patio gets dark at night too so not good to hangout back there in the evening or especially if I'm using the grill, etc. Can be pretty hard to see most of the time..

It would be nice to update the fixtures with ones that are more capable of better-illumination out there. Would something like this do the trick? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-2-Lampholder-and-Cover-White-S513WHEG/204193188 and then put LED lights in them?

Also, in the garage, we had one of these lampholder style fixtures: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqZ,!lQE5Y70R00YBO(ummuv3!~~/s-l300.jpg but my dad removed it and put a standard 2-outlet receptacle in. Of course, it's all loose and not mounted to anything... this is powering some shop lights he helped me hang. I'm thinking it would probably also be a good idea to change that up and install something a little more appropriate, like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd/Legrand-60-Watt-White-Ceiling-Socket/3540670 - it would be nice to have the second socket but not absolutely necessary... especially since right now both the sockets seem to be terminated to the light switch (this might just be a wiring issue that can be fixed though). That said, another option then would be to install one of these, http://www.lowes.com/pd/Raco-1-Gang-Round-Metal-Electrical-Box-Cover/3179239, to at least have the current receptacle *secured* rather than floating around. I'm just not sure about the sizing - the junction box behind the drywall is a bit small (maybe 3-3.5" ?), so it might be tricky trying to install the metal gang cover as it may require cutting drywall, which I don't want to get into...

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 11:14:28 PM by jplee3 »

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2016, 11:32:12 PM »
Actually, for the garage lampholder that was originally there, the wiring I'm seeing only includes 3 wires: white, black and copper. I'm assuming those are hot, neutral and ground? I've been watching Youtube vids for 'half-hot' or 'half-switched' outlets and all of them seem to indicate that a 4th wire is necessary. Since I don't have that, it doesn't seem like I'd be able to do that in this case...

sokoloff

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2016, 09:38:56 AM »
Black is hot; white is neutral; bare copper is ground.

For "half-hot", you're right, you will need an additional full-time hot (typically black) and switched hot (typically red) in addition to the neutral (white) and ground (copper).

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2016, 10:04:23 AM »
Hey all,

I have a a couple fixtures in our yard that are the older style lampholder sockets with the globe sconces (these kinds of globes - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Newport-Coastal-Black-Coastal-Outdoor-Globe-Light-7791-03B/203355708 - not the fixture though: ours is super-dated compared to the pic). In either case, they are not very bright in general. Our small yard/patio gets dark at night too so not good to hangout back there in the evening or especially if I'm using the grill, etc. Can be pretty hard to see most of the time..

It would be nice to update the fixtures with ones that are more capable of better-illumination out there. Would something like this do the trick? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-2-Lampholder-and-Cover-White-S513WHEG/204193188 and then put LED lights in them?

I have a very similar floodlight (with motion sensor) over my garage doors with LED bulbs in it and I would say it will definitely put out enough light. However a normal light fixture can put out a fair bit of light (and LED bulbs can be higher "wattage-equivalent) that the fixture rating, so you might look into either a brighter bulb for your current setup or a nicer lamp.

I would be concerned that a flood light would be too bight for a close by location such as a gill (we use ours to light a a couple hundred feet of the driveway or most of the front yard, or a good bit of the hill out back) and they spread over distance if you are aiming them close to the fixture you may wind up with a very bright spot and dark around it. But, that will depend on you specific situation.

How straight forward the installation will be will depend on how correctly the current light was installed (some quick in dirty work is know to pull the wire through the wall and into the light without a box, but that isn't code).

Quote
Also, in the garage, we had one of these lampholder style fixtures: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/a/(KGrHqZ,!lQE5Y70R00YBO(ummuv3!~~/s-l300.jpg but my dad removed it and put a standard 2-outlet receptacle in. Of course, it's all loose and not mounted to anything... this is powering some shop lights he helped me hang. I'm thinking it would probably also be a good idea to change that up and install something a little more appropriate, like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd/Legrand-60-Watt-White-Ceiling-Socket/3540670 - it would be nice to have the second socket but not absolutely necessary... especially since right now both the sockets seem to be terminated to the light switch (this might just be a wiring issue that can be fixed though). That said, another option then would be to install one of these, http://www.lowes.com/pd/Raco-1-Gang-Round-Metal-Electrical-Box-Cover/3179239, to at least have the current receptacle *secured* rather than floating around. I'm just not sure about the sizing - the junction box behind the drywall is a bit small (maybe 3-3.5" ?), so it might be tricky trying to install the metal gang cover as it may require cutting drywall, which I don't want to get into...

Any thoughts?

By all means at the very least you need to put a face plate on the outlet to secure it (which will help prevent the wires from working their way loose or any other gremlins that can appear from flexing wires)and to reduce the risk of electrocution when you use the outlet.

If the box is not flush with the drywall . . . the correct thing to do is to get a box extender and bring it out flush to the drywall and then put the faceplate on (at least that is what I would do).


Why is trimming the drywall around the box a non-starter? It is easy to work with (a razor or drywall saw will cut it easily) and you already have the have the box is place to act as a guide if needed. I wouldn't be too worried about it plus it can be covered by a faceplate.

In short here is what I would do.

1) Get a box extender http://www.garvinindustries.com/electrical-junction-boxes/round-pan-boxes/3-1-2-round/47111?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuJu9BRDP_-HN9eXs1_UBEiQAlfW39gsWkDqvukATuxzmCmGX_k48BbIib4PUi1qgzFXW2tQaAn1m8P8HAQ (or whatever size needed to bring the box flush with the drywall.

2) Install that extender and cut/file/sand drywall (whatever you are most comfortable) to accommodate the extension

3) Anchor your outlet or new light to the extension (which is part of the box and is not clamping against the drywall and pulling on the box as a light would)

4) Use an outlet cover that is bigger than your hole http://www.kyleswitchplates.com/round-duplex-outlet-wall-switch-plates/ or a shop light (possibly the one you posted) which has a base somewhat wider than the box and any drywall cutting that is unsightly or slightly gapped will be hidden.

Actually, for the garage lampholder that was originally there, the wiring I'm seeing only includes 3 wires: white, black and copper. I'm assuming those are hot, neutral and ground? I've been watching Youtube vids for 'half-hot' or 'half-switched' outlets and all of them seem to indicate that a 4th wire is necessary. Since I don't have that, it doesn't seem like I'd be able to do that in this case...

Just to clarity when a wire is identified is is labeled as something like 14-2 with ground which means 14 AWG (american wire gauge) and 2 insulated wires (white and black) with a ground. Most people end up omitting the ground when talking, so it would just be 14-2 or you could say 2 wire.

You are correct in what the wires are (if everything was done properly) and you are also corrected without one always hot and one switched hot you cannot split the outlet between hot and switched.

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2016, 10:36:39 AM »
Thanks all! The extender solution sounds pretty comprehensive and solid. Though I do like the idea of just getting a socket w/ outlet (http://www.lowes.com/pd/Legrand-60-Watt-White-Ceiling-Socket/3540670) as it would actually not be bad having another light on the side there, and just for the sake of simplicity. But the extension box sounds like a cleaner way to do things. Maybe I'll just buy what I need for any solution, and return the parts for whatever I didn't end up going with.

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2016, 10:38:25 AM »
Black is hot; white is neutral; bare copper is ground.

For "half-hot", you're right, you will need an additional full-time hot (typically black) and switched hot (typically red) in addition to the neutral (white) and ground (copper).

Seems like there's no true full-time hot running out to the box in this case. Is that *normal* for garage outlets controlled by a switch? Where the entire gang is controlled by the switch versus it being half-hot?

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2016, 10:45:51 AM »

I have a very similar floodlight (with motion sensor) over my garage doors with LED bulbs in it and I would say it will definitely put out enough light. However a normal light fixture can put out a fair bit of light (and LED bulbs can be higher "wattage-equivalent) that the fixture rating, so you might look into either a brighter bulb for your current setup or a nicer lamp.

I would be concerned that a flood light would be too bight for a close by location such as a gill (we use ours to light a a couple hundred feet of the driveway or most of the front yard, or a good bit of the hill out back) and they spread over distance if you are aiming them close to the fixture you may wind up with a very bright spot and dark around it. But, that will depend on you specific situation.

How straight forward the installation will be will depend on how correctly the current light was installed (some quick in dirty work is know to pull the wire through the wall and into the light without a box, but that isn't code).
I will try to take some pics to give a better idea of how things look at night.

Quote
By all means at the very least you need to put a face plate on the outlet to secure it (which will help prevent the wires from working their way loose or any other gremlins that can appear from flexing wires)and to reduce the risk of electrocution when you use the outlet.

If the box is not flush with the drywall . . . the correct thing to do is to get a box extender and bring it out flush to the drywall and then put the faceplate on (at least that is what I would do).


Why is trimming the drywall around the box a non-starter? It is easy to work with (a razor or drywall saw will cut it easily) and you already have the have the box is place to act as a guide if needed. I wouldn't be too worried about it plus it can be covered by a faceplate.

In short here is what I would do.

1) Get a box extender http://www.garvinindustries.com/electrical-junction-boxes/round-pan-boxes/3-1-2-round/47111?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuJu9BRDP_-HN9eXs1_UBEiQAlfW39gsWkDqvukATuxzmCmGX_k48BbIib4PUi1qgzFXW2tQaAn1m8P8HAQ (or whatever size needed to bring the box flush with the drywall.

2) Install that extender and cut/file/sand drywall (whatever you are most comfortable) to accommodate the extension

3) Anchor your outlet or new light to the extension (which is part of the box and is not clamping against the drywall and pulling on the box as a light would)

4) Use an outlet cover that is bigger than your hole http://www.kyleswitchplates.com/round-duplex-outlet-wall-switch-plates/ or a shop light (possibly the one you posted) which has a base somewhat wider than the box and any drywall cutting that is unsightly or slightly gapped will be hidden.

Regarding #4, wouldn't the outlet cover not be flush to the wall if installing the extender? Would I want to make sure the cover is also 3.5"? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you were saying about that and you meant #4 to be a separate solution in of itself? If the latter, the problem is that the junction box screw holes are not the same as with a standard 1-gang outlet so that's why it can't be secured down in the first place. Actually, would the 3.5" cover extension account for that too? The big issue here with why the outlet is 'floating' is because there's really nothing to secure it to that 'fits' or matches in terms of the screw holes.


BudgetSlasher

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2016, 11:11:23 AM »

I have a very similar floodlight (with motion sensor) over my garage doors with LED bulbs in it and I would say it will definitely put out enough light. However a normal light fixture can put out a fair bit of light (and LED bulbs can be higher "wattage-equivalent) that the fixture rating, so you might look into either a brighter bulb for your current setup or a nicer lamp.

I would be concerned that a flood light would be too bight for a close by location such as a gill (we use ours to light a a couple hundred feet of the driveway or most of the front yard, or a good bit of the hill out back) and they spread over distance if you are aiming them close to the fixture you may wind up with a very bright spot and dark around it. But, that will depend on you specific situation.

How straight forward the installation will be will depend on how correctly the current light was installed (some quick in dirty work is know to pull the wire through the wall and into the light without a box, but that isn't code).
I will try to take some pics to give a better idea of how things look at night.

Quote
By all means at the very least you need to put a face plate on the outlet to secure it (which will help prevent the wires from working their way loose or any other gremlins that can appear from flexing wires)and to reduce the risk of electrocution when you use the outlet.

If the box is not flush with the drywall . . . the correct thing to do is to get a box extender and bring it out flush to the drywall and then put the faceplate on (at least that is what I would do).


Why is trimming the drywall around the box a non-starter? It is easy to work with (a razor or drywall saw will cut it easily) and you already have the have the box is place to act as a guide if needed. I wouldn't be too worried about it plus it can be covered by a faceplate.

In short here is what I would do.

1) Get a box extender http://www.garvinindustries.com/electrical-junction-boxes/round-pan-boxes/3-1-2-round/47111?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuJu9BRDP_-HN9eXs1_UBEiQAlfW39gsWkDqvukATuxzmCmGX_k48BbIib4PUi1qgzFXW2tQaAn1m8P8HAQ (or whatever size needed to bring the box flush with the drywall.

2) Install that extender and cut/file/sand drywall (whatever you are most comfortable) to accommodate the extension

3) Anchor your outlet or new light to the extension (which is part of the box and is not clamping against the drywall and pulling on the box as a light would)

4) Use an outlet cover that is bigger than your hole http://www.kyleswitchplates.com/round-duplex-outlet-wall-switch-plates/ or a shop light (possibly the one you posted) which has a base somewhat wider than the box and any drywall cutting that is unsightly or slightly gapped will be hidden.

Regarding #4, wouldn't the outlet cover not be flush to the wall if installing the extender? Would I want to make sure the cover is also 3.5"? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you were saying about that and you meant #4 to be a separate solution in of itself? If the latter, the problem is that the junction box screw holes are not the same as with a standard 1-gang outlet so that's why it can't be secured down in the first place. Actually, would the 3.5" cover extension account for that too? The big issue here with why the outlet is 'floating' is because there's really nothing to secure it to that 'fits' or matches in terms of the screw holes.

My understanding from reading your post (and it could have been my quick read or being repeatedly distracted while typing) was that your junction box is behind the drywall with the drywall concealing the edges of the box (hence why a outlet cover could be difficult to install without drywall work). If I misunderstood I apologize for the confusions.

If that is the case then the purpose of the box extension is to bring the box flush with the interior edge of the drywall or very close to it. If it is less than a spacers thickness behind the drywall you could use these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Spacers-25-Pack-172451L/202937111. That way the face plate rests of the spacers which in turn rest on the box, instead of pressing using the drywall for resistance.

Regarding anchoring the outlet. There are 2 types of faceplates, the first type mounts directly to the box/extender and then the central screw of the outlet anchors the outlet to the face plate. in you buy a outlet faceplate that fits your box in this style it should all line up. The second type is like the one I posted above where the outlet is mounted to the box and the faceplate is mounted to the outlet via the central screw (just like a regular wall outlet).

Edit: After posting this I remembered that all of my work with outlets in round boxes that were 4 inches and they fit perfectly to the box. If you truly have a 3 inch box I would consider just installing a box extender or using spacers to get level with the drywall and then installing a light fixture with outlet that is meant for a 3 inch box.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 11:14:20 AM by BudgetSlasher »

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2016, 03:01:42 PM »
My understanding from reading your post (and it could have been my quick read or being repeatedly distracted while typing) was that your junction box is behind the drywall with the drywall concealing the edges of the box (hence why a outlet cover could be difficult to install without drywall work). If I misunderstood I apologize for the confusions.

If that is the case then the purpose of the box extension is to bring the box flush with the interior edge of the drywall or very close to it. If it is less than a spacers thickness behind the drywall you could use these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Spacers-25-Pack-172451L/202937111. That way the face plate rests of the spacers which in turn rest on the box, instead of pressing using the drywall for resistance.

Regarding anchoring the outlet. There are 2 types of faceplates, the first type mounts directly to the box/extender and then the central screw of the outlet anchors the outlet to the face plate. in you buy a outlet faceplate that fits your box in this style it should all line up. The second type is like the one I posted above where the outlet is mounted to the box and the faceplate is mounted to the outlet via the central screw (just like a regular wall outlet).

Edit: After posting this I remembered that all of my work with outlets in round boxes that were 4 inches and they fit perfectly to the box. If you truly have a 3 inch box I would consider just installing a box extender or using spacers to get level with the drywall and then installing a light fixture with outlet that is meant for a 3 inch box.

No worries - I probably just didn't do a very good job describing things. The round junction/ceiling box was installed similarly in how most standard 1-gang outlet boxes are installed when it's 'slightly' recessed behind the drywall.  I've attached some pictures of the current hackey-install of the outlet and cover as well as what it looks like underneath.

At this point, I'm thinking maybe it would just be easiest to stick with one of these: http://www.lowes.com/pd/Legrand-60-Watt-White-Ceiling-Socket/3540670 - the one I have that we took off the wall is 4.5" in diameter. Found the dimensions of the Legrand one on Amazon and it shows it's 4.8" diameter, so I think it would work out well. In fact, I might even want to consider picking either of these up for additional outlets - http://www.lowes.com/pd/Project-Source-660-Watt-Brown-Medium-Light-Socket-Adapter/3775053 or http://www.lowes.com/pd/Project-Source-660-Watt-Ivory-Medium-Light-Socket-Adapter/3774299 - it would probably look a bit tacky but who cares since it's in the garage :) Only problem would be if I wanted to plug a 3-prong plug in... I could use a 2-prong to 3-prong adapter (https://www.amazon.com/prong-Prong-Grounding-Adapter-Outlet/dp/B01DV7NJWY) but I'm afraid that may blow a fuse or overload the outlet.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 03:09:20 PM by jplee3 »

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2016, 04:02:57 PM »
The 3-prong to 2-prong adapter only change the ground and will not change the power draw of the circuit (in fact there should be no current on the ground wire period unless something is wrong).

Now technically those adapters have a little green tab on them . . . that tab is the ground (3rd prong) and is supposed to be screwed to the outlet using the center screw. The idea the outlet itself is grounded or is grounded through contact with a grounded box. That is not to say that plenty of people do no use them to eliminate the grounding pathway . . .

If I were you and I needed more than the one grounded outlet in the garage . . . I would probably involve a power strip mounted in place with drywall anchors and plugged into the outlet on the light fixture.

Looking at your picture are you sure the 2 screws coming out of the back of the outlet will not go into the two holes in the box (it is hard to tell the alignment from the picture), but I believe the screws are 3.25" apart.

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2016, 04:29:41 PM »
The 3-prong to 2-prong adapter only change the ground and will not change the power draw of the circuit (in fact there should be no current on the ground wire period unless something is wrong).

Now technically those adapters have a little green tab on them . . . that tab is the ground (3rd prong) and is supposed to be screwed to the outlet using the center screw. The idea the outlet itself is grounded or is grounded through contact with a grounded box. That is not to say that plenty of people do no use them to eliminate the grounding pathway . . .

If I were you and I needed more than the one grounded outlet in the garage . . . I would probably involve a power strip mounted in place with drywall anchors and plugged into the outlet on the light fixture.

Looking at your picture are you sure the 2 screws coming out of the back of the outlet will not go into the two holes in the box (it is hard to tell the alignment from the picture), but I believe the screws are 3.25" apart.

Yea, a power strip/surge protector might be a better idea. Then I can just screw a regular bulb into the socket and use it for the intended purpose. As far as the screws for the outlet, I'm pretty certain they are to wide apart versus the screw holes on the junction box. We would have secured them down otherwise - I think the distance between the holes is around 2.5"

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2016, 10:42:00 AM »
I ended up picking up the plastic socket/outlet I linked above. They had a porcelain one too but for I noticed the screwholes that I would need to use weren't pre-drilled and for some reason I was hesitant about having to knockout the porcelain (in fear of cracking the entire thing, etc), so I just got the plastic molded one. I plan on installing it later today so hopefully it works out!

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2016, 01:36:26 PM »
Ok guys, having a problem now it seems... I hooked up the socket/outlet and used a circuit tester to check if things are correct. I'm getting an "open neutral" with a faint light when the switch is off. When the switch is on though, the leds show as correct.

What do I need to do to correct the open neutral? I don't think I tested the prior outlet using the circuit tester so have no reference point.

I have some pictures of the wiring both at the switch and the outlet though:

jeromedawg

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2016, 03:09:13 PM »
Weird... maybe this is how it's supposed to be but I noticed that once I screwed the light in and had the switch on the socket turned on, the open neutral was no longer present and everything looked correct. However, if I switch the socket switch off or unscrew the lightbulb, the open neutral comes back - is this intentional? I guess the socket is always expecting something to be present in order to complete the circuit?

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Replacing outside lighting
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2016, 06:45:01 PM »
I've never encountered the particular open neutral issue that you mention, though to be honest I have never tested my one outlet/light in the attic.

If I were in your position and it read correctly wired with a light-bulb installed I would not be too worried, but like I said I have never encountered this situation. Still I would be curious to understand it . . . maybe someone else will chime in. Next time I crawl into the attic I will have to check out the light there, but I am not going to be using it without a bulb.

The faint light even with the switch off is odd, but I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that you have what appears to be an illuminate switch. Does it light up when the circuit is on or off?


May I  recommend 3 good practices (or at least things I do that I think are good practices)?

1) Wires should be placed under screws such that the screw turns toward the cut end of the wire; this will somewhat pull the wire into place rather than try to push it out. I noticed that the hot on the switch is attached in both direction and the ground on the light is done differently than the hot and neutral.

2) If there is a grounding point use it; I notice that the box has a grounding screw, I always like to use it (even though it is a plastic box and the fixture itself is grounded) it probably gains you nothing as most plastic boxes are ungrounded.

3) Wires should be twisted together a few turns (I always do 3 or an inch) beyond the wire nut; in this confirmation the twists act as the fastener and the wire nut only has to be an insulator.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 06:49:09 PM by BudgetSlasher »