Replacing gate valve w/ ball valve?

[jeromedawg]

Would you guys recommend DIYing this? Or would it be better left to a plumber or irrigation/sprinkler contractor?



I see threads but I'd still have to cut the manifold. I think we're going to re-do the manifold and put new valves in anyway... although it is tempting to open up the existing valves and try to DIY the repair on those (I'm suspecting the diaphragms on most of these are ripped because they're leaking and won't fully turn off when I manually turn them on/off):


Anyway, even though they're threaded, I'm not sure if there's also some pipe sealant/thread lock on them so I'd hate to cut the PVC to find out that heat/welding would be necessary. I'm suspecting the gate valve is leaking (when I have it in off position, the valves trickle water out and one of the sprinkler heads appears to have a slow leak so it seems water is slow-flowing and enough to where the water meter isn't even picking it up [including the low flow indicator])

[sonofsven]

What are you trying to do, exactly?

[affordablehousing]

I would just leave it, a new valve is like $10. A tiny trickle of water for 20 years is also probably $10.

[jeromedawg]

What are you trying to do, exactly?

We are eventually wanting to re-do our irrigation. Currently there are 4 zones split across the entire lot. I think 1 more zone will eventually make more sense but we haven't figured out what to do with landscaping, exactly. We just had several trees removed to clear space though. Bottom line right now is that at least 2 of the 4 current rainbird valves are leaking and not functioning properly (the manual operation shut-off doesn't fully shut everything off). On top of that, I'm pretty sure the gate valve is leaking water. We just want to address any water leak issues especially with the water supply and manifold being right up against the home.

[jeromedawg]

I would just leave it, a new valve is like $10. A tiny trickle of water for 20 years is also probably $10.

Until the gate valve stops functioning/bursts/leaks more and we end up causing a ton of flooding and damage.

[sonofsven]

What are you trying to do, exactly?

We are eventually wanting to re-do our irrigation. Currently there are 4 zones split across the entire lot. I think 1 more zone will eventually make more sense but we haven't figured out what to do with landscaping, exactly. We just had several trees removed to clear space though. Bottom line right now is that at least 2 of the 4 current rainbird valves are leaking and not functioning properly (the manual operation shut-off doesn't fully shut everything off). On top of that, I'm pretty sure the gate valve is leaking water. We just want to address any water leak issues especially with the water supply and manifold being right up against the home.

No, I mean with the valves. You've got pictures of two valves but I am unsure which you're trying to remove.

[jeromedawg]

What are you trying to do, exactly?

We are eventually wanting to re-do our irrigation. Currently there are 4 zones split across the entire lot. I think 1 more zone will eventually make more sense but we haven't figured out what to do with landscaping, exactly. We just had several trees removed to clear space though. Bottom line right now is that at least 2 of the 4 current rainbird valves are leaking and not functioning properly (the manual operation shut-off doesn't fully shut everything off). On top of that, I'm pretty sure the gate valve is leaking water. We just want to address any water leak issues especially with the water supply and manifold being right up against the home.

No, I mean with the valves. You've got pictures of two valves but I am unsure which you're trying to remove.

Ah, ok so we are looking to change out the blue handled gate valve with a ball valve. I'm suspecting that the gate valve isn't fully closing all the way and is allowing water through to the manifold. I want a clean shut-off there.

The picture of the manifold/rainbird valves I just included as a side, as I'm also deliberating whether to have someone replace all that in addition, if I should try to service them myself, or just leave it. We have to address drainage so digging up some parts of the irrigation lines is something we're thinking about with all this.

[sonofsven]

Ok. Start unscrewing everything downstream of the valve, as needed. Perhaps there's a union there?
Put a pipe wrench on the nipple next to the valve so you can unthread the valve from the nipple.
Apply teflon tape or pipe dope (such as Rector Seal) to threads when re-assembling.
It's easy. You'll need two pipe wrenches and/or a good sized crescent wrench.

[jeromedawg]

Ok. Start unscrewing everything downstream of the valve, as needed. Perhaps there's a union there?
Put a pipe wrench on the nipple next to the valve so you can unthread the valve from the nipple.
Apply teflon tape or pipe dope (such as Rector Seal) to threads when re-assembling.
It's easy. You'll need two pipe wrenches and/or a good sized crescent wrench.

Will I need to cut the PVC under the elbow though? Seems the elbow is probably glued to the pipe so if I try to turn the thing in place I'll risk breaking something (or it just won't turn being connected to the buried manifold)

I think there's a union fitting connecting from the main branch to the gate valve but I think that's the only one. So you're saying start from there and unscrew the union. Then unscrew the valve body *from* the manifold connection? I'm guessing that might be the way to do it. I just hope that union fitting doesn't break or get stripped somehow because then I'll be in trouble.

[sonofsven]

PVC glued to the threaded pipe? No. PVC can be threaded or glued, iron pipe is threaded only.
I was taught that it is ok to thread plastic into iron pipe, or galvanized, but not ok to thread iron pipe into plastic.

[jeromedawg]

PVC glued to the threaded pipe? No. PVC can be threaded or glued, iron pipe is threaded only.
I was taught that it is ok to thread plastic into iron pipe, or galvanized, but not ok to thread iron pipe into plastic.

Ah ok, so it must be a threaded elbow on that right-hand end (perhaps the threads are covered/hidden). I'll double-check. The other concern here that I just noticed is the main shut-off (presumably to the house - the green handled ball valve) is *above* the irrigation gate valve. I'm going to have to test but wouldn't this mean that water from the company's box is flowing simultaneously to the main AND irrigation valve? And in that case I'd have to figure out where the water company's shut-off is - I'm sure it's in the water meter box but when I went to install the Flume a few months back all of it was buried so I might have to do some digging. Probably a good idea though to shut the main and see if water still flows through the gate valve though before I begin.

EDIT: OK, so I just wiped it down for a better look and it turns on the pipe to the right of the valve actually isn't copper or steel like I was expecting that it was. It seems to be plastic (not sure what kind) and it does appear to be glued to the PVC elbow:



Looking at this pic, it almost seems like it's cracked! No water comes out of it AFAIK though:


It seems like this plastic threaded pipe screws into the valve




Writing on the valve says "3/4 200 WOG" - I think both sides of the valve are female too.

I don't think that's a union on the left-hand side. Seems like it's just an adapter that was welded/soldered on

[jeromedawg]

I just checked the ball valve above this and it does in fact only shut water off to the house only. So I'll need to locate the main shut-off from the water company. Guess I'll have to do more digging in the water meter box...

[YttriumNitrate]

That looks like teflon tape around the threads of a metal pipe rather than a plastic pipe.

[uniwelder]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

[jeromedawg]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

True, I could do that if I want a holdover solution. I do like ball valves much more. If I were to go this route, I could probably find the parts at Ace. My fear though is fixing it and then having it break again sooner than later due to a careless contractor turning it aggressively too hard (I think this is the other most common reason why these things break)

[jeromedawg]

That looks like teflon tape around the threads of a metal pipe rather than a plastic pipe.

I'm pretty certain the teflon tape/pipe on the right are some sort of plastic. The reason why is that the threads are *flush* with the pipe - also these types of valves are most commonly female on both sides.

I think the way I'd have to go about this is by cutting the brown/black plastic pipe, then unscrewing that section of plastic threaded pipe and then unscrewing the valve from the adapter that's soldered on the other side - I think it's just a male threaded adapter w/ a nut (for ease of removal using a wrench) that's on the left-hand side

[uniwelder]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

True, I could do that if I want a holdover solution. I do like ball valves much more. If I were to go this route, I could probably find the parts at Ace. My fear though is fixing it and then having it break again sooner than later due to a careless contractor turning it aggressively too hard (I think this is the other most common reason why these things break)

It doesn't sound like the valve is broken from what you're describing, just leaky.  It probably has the original seals and replacing them should last at least 10 years.  Rubber degrades with time.  Unless you're looking to replace all your plumbing, I don't see this as a holdover solution.

[jeromedawg]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

True, I could do that if I want a holdover solution. I do like ball valves much more. If I were to go this route, I could probably find the parts at Ace. My fear though is fixing it and then having it break again sooner than later due to a careless contractor turning it aggressively too hard (I think this is the other most common reason why these things break)

It doesn't sound like the valve is broken from what you're describing, just leaky.  It probably has the original seals and replacing them should last at least 10 years.  Rubber degrades with time.  Unless you're looking to replace all your plumbing, I don't see this as a holdover solution.

Yea, it's not busted - it's just not closing all the way. It could be the original seals so maybe I'll just try fixing the bonnet if I don't want to deal with cutting pipe and all that. I've rebuilt valve steps for regular hose bibs and valves for indoor sink/water lines but never a gate valve btw - it seems most of the solutions out there are centered around pushing some putty like material inside where the packing nut compresses and not so much anything regarding replacing rubber seals...

At the end of the day, I will probably just go buy a ball valve, cut the dark PVC down the middle, unscrew everything, and thread the ball valve on without reconnecting anything. We haven't figured out what to do with the irrigations and zoning so it would probably be a waste of time reconnecting the manifold. The only other reason to do so would be to continue watering the areas of our yard that have any sort of vegetation (which is basically just the grass hahaha)

[uniwelder]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

True, I could do that if I want a holdover solution. I do like ball valves much more. If I were to go this route, I could probably find the parts at Ace. My fear though is fixing it and then having it break again sooner than later due to a careless contractor turning it aggressively too hard (I think this is the other most common reason why these things break)

It doesn't sound like the valve is broken from what you're describing, just leaky.  It probably has the original seals and replacing them should last at least 10 years.  Rubber degrades with time.  Unless you're looking to replace all your plumbing, I don't see this as a holdover solution.

Yea, it's not busted - it's just not closing all the way. It could be the original seals so maybe I'll just try fixing the bonnet if I don't want to deal with cutting pipe and all that. I've rebuilt valve steps for regular hose bibs and valves for indoor sink/water lines but never a gate valve btw - it seems most of the solutions out there are centered around pushing some putty like material inside where the packing nut compresses and not so much anything regarding replacing rubber seals...

Perhaps I have no idea what I'm talking about then.  I assumed it wasn't actually a gate valve, but a more typical shut off valve with the same components as a hose bibb.  Didn't think gate valves were installed residentially.  How exactly do you know what type it is?

[jeromedawg]

Rather than replace the valve, you should be able to disassemble the valve body and replace 2 washers or a washer and bonnet.  A bonnet is a seal that looks like a fiber washer.  Under the blue handle, there are two sets of hexes--- smaller one for the valve stem (where a bonnet sets under the cap) and the larger hex for the valve body (where they will be a flat round washer).  I might have some terminology wrong, but it'll make sense when its apart or if you look up a video.  Assuming everything comes apart ok, it should only cost you $2 and hopefully be a lot less work than taking apart and hooking back up the pipe connections.

True, I could do that if I want a holdover solution. I do like ball valves much more. If I were to go this route, I could probably find the parts at Ace. My fear though is fixing it and then having it break again sooner than later due to a careless contractor turning it aggressively too hard (I think this is the other most common reason why these things break)

It doesn't sound like the valve is broken from what you're describing, just leaky.  It probably has the original seals and replacing them should last at least 10 years.  Rubber degrades with time.  Unless you're looking to replace all your plumbing, I don't see this as a holdover solution.

Yea, it's not busted - it's just not closing all the way. It could be the original seals so maybe I'll just try fixing the bonnet if I don't want to deal with cutting pipe and all that. I've rebuilt valve steps for regular hose bibs and valves for indoor sink/water lines but never a gate valve btw - it seems most of the solutions out there are centered around pushing some putty like material inside where the packing nut compresses and not so much anything regarding replacing rubber seals...

Perhaps I have no idea what I'm talking about then.  I assumed it wasn't actually a gate valve, but a more typical shut off valve with the same components as a hose bibb.  Didn't think gate valves were installed residentially.  How exactly do you know what type it is?

I'm just going off what I know based on what plumbers have told me and what I've read around. We had one of these types of valves at my condo and it busted (basically the knob endlessly turned) and the HOA took care of repairing it since it was technically a common area valve and replaced with a ball valve.

I've always known "gate valves" to be these types:


The regular hose bibs, do have rubber gaskets inside that need to be replaced ever so often. I thought it might have been the same with gate valves until I started reading around, watching Youtube vids, and looking at images of the insides of them... I think there might be different designs where there could be rubber gaskets utilized but I think more common are the ones pictured above.

EDIT: I just found this lol - apparently there's another one called a "stop valve" (i had no idea... you learn something new everyday; or for me it's just sometimes haha)


At this point, the only real way to know would be to cut the darned thing off. I suppose I could try unscrewing and disassembling the valve stem too... I'll probably just leave things be for now. The other reason I'm considering all this is because we have to re-do a portion of drain line and there's a portion of irrigation line that crosses over it and interferes with it (in terms of depth/level). So I was considering either ripping that portion of irrigation out completely or having it re-routed/changed. Either way, it seems dealing with some of the issues around the irrigation would make sense if we're already digging things up for the drains.

Forgot about the "200 WOG" printed on the valve - I'm pretty sure that indicates it's a gate valve. If you Google that, everything that comes back is "gate valve"

[nedwin]

If it were me I would repair the gate valve/stop valve rather than replace it.  the parts should be pretty cheap and there are instructional videos on youtube.  I prefer ball valves also but would live with the gate valve/stop valve until something bigger breaks.

As for the sprinkler valves, you should be able to re-build those also rather than replace.  I have only rebuilt Hunter jar-top type valves, but youtube shows that rainbird valves are rebuilt in about the same way.  you can also easily replace the solenoids.  I would only replace the full valve if the valve body was cracked or broken.  You could add another zone in the future by connecting to the existing manifold with the new valve with the existing or closer to the new zone.

[lthenderson]

You should be able to hold the valve and break free the union connection. Assuming their is enough clearance between the handle and your foundation, you should be able to unthread it from the plastic section if you are careful by just spinning the whole valve. But in situations like this, I usually make sure I either have another source of water in case the plastic section breaks and you have to make another trip to the store to get stuff to fix it too.

[jeromedawg]

If it were me I would repair the gate valve/stop valve rather than replace it.  the parts should be pretty cheap and there are instructional videos on youtube.  I prefer ball valves also but would live with the gate valve/stop valve until something bigger breaks.

As for the sprinkler valves, you should be able to re-build those also rather than replace.  I have only rebuilt Hunter jar-top type valves, but youtube shows that rainbird valves are rebuilt in about the same way.  you can also easily replace the solenoids.  I would only replace the full valve if the valve body was cracked or broken.  You could add another zone in the future by connecting to the existing manifold with the new valve with the existing or closer to the new zone.

I'm suspecting the diaphragms on multiple valves are ripped - haven't opened them up yet to confirm though.

You should be able to hold the valve and break free the union connection. Assuming their is enough clearance between the handle and your foundation, you should be able to unthread it from the plastic section if you are careful by just spinning the whole valve. But in situations like this, I usually make sure I either have another source of water in case the plastic section breaks and you have to make another trip to the store to get stuff to fix it too.

AFAIK there's no actual union - the piece to the left of the valve I think is just a male threaded adapter soldered on. This is branched off directly from the meter *before* it hits the house shut-off so I have to be really careful not to screw anything up

[Model96]

Yes, because there is no union you will have to cut the plastic pipe to replace the valve.
You can then install a plastic union next to the valve, so you don't have the same problem next time.

[jeromedawg]

Yes, because there is no union you will have to cut the plastic pipe to replace the valve.
You can then install a plastic union next to the valve, so you don't have the same problem next time.

Good idea on the plastic union. Maybe I'll tackle it this weekend... I found the water company shut-off too - I'm definitely going to need to buy the curb key. I tried turning it with a regular crescent wrench and was like "nope" - I ended up using a small basin wrench and got it to go but even that was a challenge hahaha.

[Model96]

Also consider installing a valve with a washer in it, similar to your picture, if you can get a threaded one. They are designed to shut off tight and of course the washer is easily replaceable without dismantling all the pipework.
True gate valves, the ones marked 'WOG', are not really designed to shut off tight and usually require a second different valve in line as a 'stop' valve.

[jeromedawg]

Also consider installing a valve with a washer in it, similar to your picture, if you can get a threaded one. They are designed to shut off tight and of course the washer is easily replaceable without dismantling all the pipework.
True gate valves, the ones marked 'WOG', are not really designed to shut off tight and usually require a second different valve in line as a 'stop' valve.

Good to know - wouldn't a ball valve just be better all around vs dealing with a stop valve or other?

[Model96]

Also consider installing a valve with a washer in it, similar to your picture, if you can get a threaded one. They are designed to shut off tight and of course the washer is easily replaceable without dismantling all the pipework.
True gate valves, the ones marked 'WOG', are not really designed to shut off tight and usually require a second different valve in line as a 'stop' valve.

Good to know - wouldn't a ball valve just be better all around vs dealing with a stop valve or other?

A ball valve is good if it will be either fully open or fully shut. If you use a ball valve in a part open position, it will wear and fail to seal closed much quicker than a 'jumper' type 'stop' valve. Here in Australia a jumper valve is a washer type. Ball valves are no good if there is any risk of water freezing in the pipes……the valve will crack.

[jeromedawg]

Also consider installing a valve with a washer in it, similar to your picture, if you can get a threaded one. They are designed to shut off tight and of course the washer is easily replaceable without dismantling all the pipework.
True gate valves, the ones marked 'WOG', are not really designed to shut off tight and usually require a second different valve in line as a 'stop' valve.

Good to know - wouldn't a ball valve just be better all around vs dealing with a stop valve or other?

A ball valve is good if it will be either fully open or fully shut. If you use a ball valve in a part open position, it will wear and fail to seal closed much quicker than a 'jumper' type 'stop' valve. Here in Australia a jumper valve is a washer type. Ball valves are no good if there is any risk of water freezing in the pipes……the valve will crack.

Yikes, that's good to know - I was operating the home shut-off in half-open/half-closed mode several times when we had a pinhole leak thinking it would 'help' reduce the pressure a bit. Not going to do that again. Fortunately, it doesn't get cold enough to hit freezing temps down this way...*knock on wood*