Best South-facing patio door: vinyl, composite, steel? Sliding vs swinging?

[Fru-Gal]

We're replacing a double-pane wood(ish) sliding French door from Home Depot with multiple lights that we installed and lasted 10-15 years but is now seriously rotted out and stuck. Also some water/rot damage to the floor.

I wanted a steel clad swinging door with single lights but they are so much more expensive than a sliding Jen-Weld vinyl patio door -- $2200 vs $460!

Will I regret this cheap purchase?

Does composite last?

Can't seem to find a good discussion of which material is best, and whether to go with sliding or swinging. The only thing I am sure of is going with single lights in each door, and it not being wood.

[MayDay]

I can give you some insight. I work in the industry.

Yes vinyl sucks. It will need to be replaced on about 10 years. The environmental footprint is not ideal.

Is it South facing? What color? (ETA: saw it is indeed South facing).  Dark color + south = bad!

Why is the current wood door rotting? I would expect a good quality wood door to last longer. I'm wondering if there is something about the install resulting in water not draining away properly? Or did the paint need repair and not get it? What color and brand is it?

There should be options between a cheap vinyl door and a steel door + sidelight. Did you price out moderately priced patio doors?

[Fru-Gal]

Thanks!

So here is what I bought and am waiting for delivery. Is this a good material?

MP Doors
72 in. x 80 in. Fiberglass Smooth White Right-Hand Outswing Hinged Patio Door
Lifetime warranty
Full composite frame system, will never rot
High-performance fiberglass flush glaze door for easy maintenance

https://www.homedepot.com/p/MP-Doors-72-in-x-80-in-Fiberglass-Smooth-White-Right-Hand-Outswing-Hinged-Patio-Door-HT6068R00201/206116167?cm_mmc=ecc-_-THD_SHIP_CONFIRMATION-_-20190807_THD_SHIP_CONFIRMATION-_-Product_URL__CA67575757withTHD

I read an article that said outswing doors should really be the standard as they're much more waterproof.

To answer your question the doors are white but yes we did not repaint at all and in the increasingly rainy weather they took a beating. They were also maybe made of MDF or something.

Good question about how the water came in, it rotted a section of interior floor (2 widths of oak flooring) in front of the entry side (it was a sliding door). I would assume that came from the sill. When we take this door out we'll have to do some investigating and pull up those 2 planks. But according to the article I read, out swinging doors will be more waterproof at the sill?

[Sibley]

It doesn't matter how waterproof a door is if the water is flowing towards the door. Check the drainage.

[Fru-Gal]

It's above ground by a few feet (opens on to a deck) so any water had to have come in via rain hitting the window or through the sill/threshhold (whatever it's called). The window never leaked and I never saw standing water. No ceiling damage so it can't be from the attic through the wall all the way to the door opening. I have other windows on this same South facing wall with no leaking. Now that I think about it it could also potentially come in through inadequate flashing around the brick mold but I doubt it, all that looks pretty solid.

[slackmax]

Glad to see this thread. I'm in the process of finally getting estimates on a french door that has rotted and leaks into the house. I just want to stop the leak, but I'm sure the contractors will want to replace the whole door. I've taped and caulked all over the door and the leak continues.

How are you deciding what contractor to use? I'm deciding between a carpenter I know, whose abilities I don't know, and a big company that does doors and windows and has it's own employees, and who the internet says is 'expensive but they know what they are doing".

I have sticker shock. Supposedly a new french door will be about $5,000 with parts and labor.     

Good luck.   

[Sibley]

It's above ground by a few feet (opens on to a deck) so any water had to have come in via rain hitting the window or through the sill/threshhold (whatever it's called). The window never leaked and I never saw standing water. No ceiling damage so it can't be from the attic through the wall all the way to the door opening. I have other windows on this same South facing wall with no leaking. Now that I think about it it could also potentially come in through inadequate flashing around the brick mold but I doubt it, all that looks pretty solid.

The door threshold itself should also be tilted out. Check that as well.

[Adam Zapple]

The issues tend to occur where the door hits the stop.  Water runs down and does not properly drain from the threshold due to poor design or install.  An outward swinging door should help with this.

[Gone Fishing]

Consider an awning over the new door.  I built my own from steel roofing when we bought a house with south facing doors.  The awnings deflect water and summer sun, yet allow the lower angled winter sun in. 

[Fru-Gal]

$5000 sounds in the ballpark. I may end up paying something for installation, depending on if my husband and I do the work (we both worked in construction and he is an excellent carpenter) or if he decides to pay his cousin's company to do it. They also do excellent work. Husband doesn't like to do certain types of construction (as he points out, his cousin will do it better, faster) so it's his decision.

Another pro tip: Based on reviews I got it delivered (hasn't come yet) because it sounds like they are enormous when packaged and the stress of a poor delivery process might harm the doors or glass.

We have solid wood French doors from different companies (like Andersen) that we've installed elsewhere in the house and they have all survived quite well. This one, between the exposure, the possibly poor material it's made from, a dog who decided to start gnawing at it, a generally destructive family (children) and the fact that it's sliding, has not.

I also went looking on Craigslist and in local recycled building materials stores for used replacements (did get 2 great windows once that way), but no luck.

I read the book "Make Your House Do the Housework" and that was when I realized that having extra lights in the doors (as all our replacement double-pane French doors have) was just extra work to clean. Also he recommends reducing the number of doors in and out of your house. In a way I'll miss having this door stuck closed because as a result kids & dogs have not been tramping through my office!

I saw some reviews here on MMM saying the Renewal by Andersen window replacement was a terrible service FYI...

[J Boogie]

Consider an awning over the new door.  I built my own from steel roofing when we bought a house with south facing doors.  The awnings deflect water and summer sun, yet allow the lower angled winter sun in.

Yes, this is the best idea for the water issues. If you don't have good protection from overhanging eaves then your flashing and drainage has to be 100% completely perfect to avoid water damage. Eaves/awnings/canopies make it easy.

[Fru-Gal]

Good tips about the awning, angle of threshold and drainage (now I see what you mean, drainage in terms of making sure water that does hit the threshold drains out, not in).

[Fru-Gal]

The new door came and it's BEAUTIFUL!!! No weird difference in materials around the glass (I saw that in person at Home Depot on some cheaper doors), and it's finished (don't have to paint it). Looks very high-end! Will it last? According to a website, composite should last 100 years...

Now we shall see if we install ourselves or with the family construction company. The only negative about the latter is sometimes I can't get a price ("just a few beers") and then I don't know if they're just going to send some lackeys over or will it really get done well -- not to mention WHEN. Husband is waffling about whether he'll install -- but he's an excellent carpenter, maybe I can convince him. OTOH his instincts are usually right.

He was going on last night about sawing through stucco, which doesn't make sense to me since we're installing into an existing door frame. But we do have to replace the brick mold as the dog ate the bottoms of it.

[slackmax]

The new door came and it's BEAUTIFUL!!! No weird difference in materials around the glass (I saw that in person at Home Depot on some cheaper doors), and it's finished (don't have to paint it). Looks very high-end! Will it last? According to a website, composite should last 100 years...

Now we shall see if we install ourselves or with the family construction company. The only negative about the latter is sometimes I can't get a price ("just a few beers") and then I don't know if they're just going to send some lackeys over or will it really get done well -- not to mention WHEN. Husband is waffling about whether he'll install -- but he's an excellent carpenter, maybe I can convince him. OTOH his instincts are usually right.

He was going on last night about sawing through stucco, which doesn't make sense to me since we're installing into an existing door frame. But we do have to replace the brick mold as the dog ate the bottoms of it.

Congratulations on how nice the new door looks!  Sounds like you guys are moving right along.

It makes me feel better about my own insecurities when I hear you have concerns about the installation even when you have an "inside" connection to the labor.

I may end up using one of the more expensive big name local door and window places with 30 years history and their own employees, not subcontractors, to do my installation.  I know a local carpenter who would probably be cheaper, but who knows if he is really as good as the guys who do doors all the time, right?   



 

[Fru-Gal]

The other advantage of using a company to do it is emotional. I think we're getting better but we both get irrational (he more than me, of course haha) when building things.

[Fru-Gal]

Update: Job is 99% done (one tiny stucco patch remains to be done). It's all framed on the inside too. My husband just did that part (adding the molding). Looks beautiful! Now we've started the wheels turning and are looking at doing some more window replacement for some original picture windows in the house that are all rotted out. Supposedly we are getting a crazy good deal but I haven't the materials these windows are made from.

[Fru-Gal]

Just an update, by the first of November we had replaced all the remaining rotted and leaky windows in the house with double pane fiberglass windows!!! Now hoping to get the exterior painting done but man oh man do I love my new windows. Can already notice the difference in terms of retained heat, no drafts, sound blocking, etc. Incredibly, we got a DEAL and basically the windows were $200 each and the labor was $1500. I consider that insane for 4 windows (including 2 picture windows)! We did end up with two extra windows when they ordered the wrong size so we're trying to resell those.

[big_owl]

Just an update, by the first of November we had replaced all the remaining rotted and leaky windows in the house with double pane fiberglass windows!!! Now hoping to get the exterior painting done but man oh man do I love my new windows. Can already notice the difference in terms of retained heat, no drafts, sound blocking, etc. Incredibly, we got a DEAL and basically the windows were $200 each and the labor was $1500. I consider that insane for 4 windows (including 2 picture windows)! We did end up with two extra windows when they ordered the wrong size so we're trying to resell those.

Yeah we just spent $100k to get all the POS vinyl windows in our house replaced with metal clad wood windows. It's like living in a whole new house. I love them. They're so much more quiet now too.  Not to mention the seals aren't blown on all of them and they don't have any fogging or condensation between the panes.... Totally worth it.

[Fru-Gal]

Yeah, time will tell on the quality of these windows but really anything is an improvement over single-pane, rotted/mildewed windows, some original to the house, some bad replacements from previous owners. Metal-clad wood sounds like top-of-the-line. Also anything that does not require exterior painting is a vast improvement since we are never gonna paint it (other than painting the stucco now).

[big_owl]

I think you'll find your fiberglass a good decision.  We also replaced our original metal front door with a fiberglass unit and we love it.  No problems whatsoever. 

I would have gone with fiberglass windows but the wood was only an extra $20k for the entire house and I liked the look better so we went with them.  We originally looking at vinyl replacement windows and even with triple pane they were basically like buying windows from McDonalds.  I can't believe these were originally sold to us as a "luxury home" during the housing boom.  What a joke. 

All our windows also used to have mullions but we got rid of all those and just have plain glass.  Our house has some pretty epic views and I love the pure glass vs. the broken up feeling of the mullions.