Author Topic: Install tile over hardwood - how?  (Read 12363 times)

Sibley

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Install tile over hardwood - how?
« on: September 18, 2017, 07:55:15 PM »
Hello all! Next house project.

I want to install tile by the front door. Currently, there's hardwood in place. I've got quite a bit of clearance under the door so don't expect a height issue. Problem is, I don't know how to install tile over hardwood! I am NOT removing the hardwood, and would prefer not to mess it up either.

Please note, this is my first time doing tile, so I'm clueless.

ixtap

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 07:59:03 PM »
Since tile requires adhesive, I don't see how you could lay it without messing up the hardwood. Have you looked into laminates that can be installed floating?

Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 07:07:52 AM »
I currently have Pergo flooring over the hardwood, and it really doesn't look good. Tile would look much better, and in keeping with the overall character of the house. Can't I put plywood or something down, then tile over that?

nereo

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 07:17:24 AM »
I suggest posting this on the John Bridge forum - which is dedicated to tile installation.  Lots of real pros there.

To address your question - the most important thing when laying tile is that your subsurface is flat and uniform.  It can't buckle or have gaps.  You can tile directly over your existing wood floods but you'll want to run a sander over them first to ensure adhesion.  Pergo IMO is not a good sub-surface, so that needs to come up regardless.
You *could* lay down plywood on top of your hardwood floors, BUT that will involve screwing it into the hardwood floors anyway, so either way you will "screw up" the underlying hardwood floors.

My approach (assuming the hardwood was level) would be to run a floor sander over them then tile directly onto the wood floor and call it a day. Any gaps large enough to jamb a pencil eraser into must be filled first (if you are using large tiles (≥8" per side)  for small tiles (≤2") you don't want any gaps larger than ~1/16").

meghan88

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 09:43:04 AM »
I suggest posting this on the John Bridge forum - which is dedicated to tile installation.  Lots of real pros there.

To address your question - the most important thing when laying tile is that your subsurface is flat and uniform.  It can't buckle or have gaps.  You can tile directly over your existing wood floods but you'll want to run a sander over them first to ensure adhesion.  Pergo IMO is not a good sub-surface, so that needs to come up regardless.
You *could* lay down plywood on top of your hardwood floors, BUT that will involve screwing it into the hardwood floors anyway, so either way you will "screw up" the underlying hardwood floors.

My approach (assuming the hardwood was level) would be to run a floor sander over them then tile directly onto the wood floor and call it a day. Any gaps large enough to jamb a pencil eraser into must be filled first (if you are using large tiles (≥8" per side)  for small tiles (≤2") you don't want any gaps larger than ~1/16").

+100 for going over to John Bridge forums.  Take pics, start a thread and get advice from the pros. 

I think you'll hear that installing tile directly onto wood is a no-no.  You need a decoupling membrane like hardie board, cement board or Kerdi.  Otherwise, the tiles and/or grout will crack as the wood expands and contracts. 

Another word of advice.  Choose plain old medium gray grout.  Coloured grout will fade, and white grout on the floor is just asking for trouble.

GuitarStv

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 09:54:50 AM »
This sounds like a really bad idea.

Hardwood moves with humidity changes over the year . . . the wood swells and contracts.  This is not the kind of base you want to install tile on.  Installing directly on the hardwood will almost certainly mess up the hardwood anyway.

Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 12:36:52 PM »
I will find the John Bridge forum, thanks. Had never heard of it.

Couple notes:
1. The floor isn't even - that's what happens when you've got a nearly 100 year old house!
2. Not a problem screwing into the floor because there's already nail & staple holes. A few more aren't going to be an issue.
3. I assumed I'd have to put something between the wood floor and tile, so that's not a surprise. I've got about 1.5 vertical inches to play with before I hit the door, so hopefully that'll be plenty of space.

Meghan, noted on the grout color. I will keep that in mind. I'm going for appropriate to the style of the house, and it was built in 1919. I doubt they had a ton of grout color options back then!

kendallf

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 01:22:28 PM »
I will find the John Bridge forum, thanks. Had never heard of it.

Couple notes:
1. The floor isn't even - that's what happens when you've got a nearly 100 year old house!
2. Not a problem screwing into the floor because there's already nail & staple holes. A few more aren't going to be an issue.
3. I assumed I'd have to put something between the wood floor and tile, so that's not a surprise. I've got about 1.5 vertical inches to play with before I hit the door, so hopefully that'll be plenty of space.

Meghan, noted on the grout color. I will keep that in mind. I'm going for appropriate to the style of the house, and it was built in 1919. I doubt they had a ton of grout color options back then!

If you have 1.5" to work with and the hardwood floor is good and solid, go ahead and use 1/2" Durock cement board.  If you want to keep the installed height lower, use fiber cement board like Fiberock which is available in 1/4" thickness.  Either way, the floor needs to be solid underneath; flexy floors = cracks.

paddedhat

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 02:08:49 PM »





Generally, it's a really bad idea. Hardwood flooring is typically not a suitable substrate for tile installation, since it's surprisingly unstable, as in, it moves a huge amount based on everything from humidity, temperature, foot traffic, etc..  Sanding it down, and tiling directly over it will be nothing but a disaster. Substrates for tile do two things. they provide stiffness, so the tile and the grout do not crack as the floor flexes, and they provide a "decoupling" membrane, that isolates the movement of the subfloor from telegraphing through the tile. For example, a plywood subfloor in a new home can shrink to the point that joints that were originally tight can open up to 1/8 to 3/16th gaps. In a proper tile install, this subfloor gets another layer of material, such as 1/2" cement board, Hardie board, or even a high grade 1/2" plywood. This material is installed so that the joints are offset from the subfloor joints below. Once installed, it stiffens the floor to prevent flex and it "decouples" the subfloor movement from the tile. I have seen a job where a DIYer tiled directly over a single layer layer of subfloor in a new home. After a few months there were interesting lines where the floor cracked directly over every joint in the subfloor.

In your case, I would look at all available options that would give you the look you want, without a true tile installation. If you can't find an acceptable option, I would look to the John Bridge forum, and be sure that your whatever direction you head is within industry best practices, and according to manufacturer's instructions.  In other words, don't end up asking the question, getting ten answers from seasons pros. who say, "I wouldn't, and I would refuse the job if the customer won't agree to removing the hardwood, and installing a proper subfloor", and one from some guy that says "no worries, just staple a layer of 1/4" plywood down and have at it", and give much weight to that answer. That guy is the one that's best ignored. Good luck.








affordablehousing

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 04:39:06 PM »
Sounds like a definite disaster! Don't do it. Just leave the wood in place.

lthenderson

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 06:55:31 PM »
Paddedhat's info is spot on.

Why don't you just remove the hardwood in the area you want to tile and leave the rest alone? It is a simple job and it eliminates having a "step" of an 1.5 to 2" that will just be a tripping hazard to those entering or leaving your house. Just scribe a line to where you want to tile too and with one of several tools, cut through the hardwood down to the subfloor. Remove that section of hardwood flooring and add your cement board and then tile on top of that and cover up any imperfections or small height differences with a piece of threshold.

Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 07:14:31 PM »
I already have a "step". Previous owners replaced the front door, and it sitting just a bit higher than the original door did. Thus why I've got so much space to work with here. Assuming I can make this work, I will put in whatever threshold/transition is needed. Plus, I'm going to install carpet in the rest of the room.

Clearly, going directly over hardwood won't work. Not even a consideration at this point. I've got a post at the John Bridge forum, so hopefully they'll all tell me that I can put down cement board or whatever and that'll work ok.

If I have to, I'll pull up the hardwood there, or just give up on my plan for tile. I really don't want to however, because in a 1919 house, who knows what can of worms that would open. The house was built solidly, but it is almost 100 years old.

For reference, here's a pic of what I'm dealing with, this is during the carpet tear up process, so it's been cleaned up since.

pbkmaine

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 07:40:17 PM »
What about a nice big colorful rug over the area?

hoosier

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2017, 06:17:05 AM »
There are a lot of vinyl tile floating floor options available.  That's probably your only play if you don't want to mess up the hardwood.

Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2017, 07:15:33 AM »
<sigh> <grumble, grumble> ok, I'll pull up the hardwood.

No, I don't want a rug. I don't want vinyl, or lino. I want actual tile. I'll do rugs elsewhere in the house, but in this spot, I want tile. (Yes, I'm stubborn. Can you tell?)

So, what do I put down over the existing subfloor? It's likely diagonal boards, and I can't remove it. It'll mess up the rest of the first floor. Help me with the layers here please.

See, I do listen to reason. I just exhaust my options first!

lthenderson

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2017, 07:57:25 AM »
You don't have to remove all the hardwood, only the hardwood in as big of a rectangular threshold as you desire. Mark the perimeter where you want the tile to go and taking a skilsaw set to the depth of the hardwood, cut along that line down to the diagonal boards that comprise your underlayment. Remove the hardwood in that area only. You will have to finish up the corners with a sharp chisel or an oscillating saw. Once you have the hardwood removed in that area, put down your cement board, screwing it down often and then tile on top of that. Fasten down a transition strip over the joint between the tile and the hardwood to cover up the bad sawing job.

See some examples:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/aa/d8/22/aad8229383e48f1b0b7dd299b77cc326--tile-flooring-laminate-flooring.jpg
http://biteinto.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/tile-flooring-ideas-for-foyer-and-foyer-floor-tile-designs-foyer-design-design-ideas-electoral7-1.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/26/44/ef2644537ef8865783b90c55b82217e8--tile-entryway-granite-tile.jpg

FIKris

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2017, 12:22:58 PM »
The Mustache forums referred me to the floor elf tile guy when I was doing tile in by bathroom (http://floorelf.com) and his instructions were super helpful, funny, and easy to follow.   You might want to check that site out too for step by step guidance.   My bathroom project turned out great, hope your tile project does too.

J Boogie

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2017, 12:46:42 PM »
You have nice historic, old growth hardwood floors that look to be in pretty decent shape.  That's quite valuable and obviously it's a shame to cover them up with pergo.

I'd give up on your plan for tile and embrace the hardwood floor.  Sometimes it takes us years to realize we've had something incredibly awesome right beneath our noses but our stubborn and often arbitrary preferences kept us from appreciating it.

I will grant you that tile is lower maintenance and easier to clean liquid messes from, but consider the cost - having the hardwood floors removed, having the subfloor prepped, having the tile installed, plus cost of desired materials and cost of hauling away unwanted materials.  And your property value will remain the same or go down.  Given what skilled remodeling costs these days, that's pretty hefty for a preference, not an investment or an improvement.


Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 08:11:18 PM »
You have nice historic, old growth hardwood floors that look to be in pretty decent shape.  That's quite valuable and obviously it's a shame to cover them up with pergo.

I'd give up on your plan for tile and embrace the hardwood floor.  Sometimes it takes us years to realize we've had something incredibly awesome right beneath our noses but our stubborn and often arbitrary preferences kept us from appreciating it.

I will grant you that tile is lower maintenance and easier to clean liquid messes from, but consider the cost - having the hardwood floors removed, having the subfloor prepped, having the tile installed, plus cost of desired materials and cost of hauling away unwanted materials.  And your property value will remain the same or go down.  Given what skilled remodeling costs these days, that's pretty hefty for a preference, not an investment or an improvement.

Oh, I know this is nice hardwood! It needs to be refinished, but overall is in decent shape. Hardwood right in front of the front door is a bad idea however, what with tracking in wet from outside. I will not be surprised to see water damage in that area when I pull up the Pergo. I plan to do just a small area with the tile. Basically, where the Pergo is currently, without measuring I'm guessing 3x8 foot, maybe a bit less. The rest of the hardwood I'll leave alone.

bearvalleyak

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2017, 03:25:46 PM »
I did the same project at my house about 8 years ago.  Living in the north with snow 6 months of the year made tile an easy choice.  I installed 1/4" hardie backer board with a thinset mortar screwed to the 1.5" OSB subfloor.  I wanted to apply Ditra as a decoupling membrane over the hardie board but it was too expensive so I just installed the tile onto the hardie board with thinset.  Eight years later it is rock solid.  It did however add a 3/4" rise which I accommodated with a 3/4" oak transition.  This has worked out fine although I understand in your case the transition would be a bit higher because your entryway is already higher than your main flooring.  If you do go this route you may want to expand the tiled area to provide enough space to take a step or 2 before reaching the transition.  Good luck! 

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2017, 04:04:24 PM »
Man I hate to see that wood go but if you insist..

Gotta take the wood up till you hit subfloor.

Then install Cement backer board 1/2 preferred but if height will be an issue can use 1/4.

The breaking the bond part is important.... decoupling..

Then thinset and tile then grout. Hopefully your tiles are a perfect fit or you will need to figure out how you want to cut them to not look funny.   DONT forget the grout line spacing when doing arithmetic in your head...

You will also need a transition around it depending on height difference.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 04:06:24 PM by Kroaler »

Sibley

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 02:59:27 PM »
Man I hate to see that wood go but if you insist..

You realize you're mourning ~24 sq feet of hardwood out of a total of ~1200 sq feet throughout the house, right?  ;)

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2017, 08:29:54 AM »
I just hate it cause even that 24 sq ft is alot of work.   

I'm getting lazy.  Lol.
 

paddedhat

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2017, 10:31:20 AM »
Man I hate to see that wood go but if you insist..

Gotta take the wood up till you hit subfloor.

Then install Cement backer board 1/2 preferred but if height will be an issue can use 1/4.

The breaking the bond part is important.... decoupling..

Then thinset and tile then grout. Hopefully your tiles are a perfect fit or you will need to figure out how you want to cut them to not look funny.   DONT forget the grout line spacing when doing arithmetic in your head...

You will also need a transition around it depending on height difference.

To expand on the layout issues. I would buy the tiles and the grout spacers before you cut a thing. Then do you layout and cut the hole in the hardwood to the exact size your tile field will be. This not only will look sharp and professional, but it will be a lot less work. I just did this to a small brick walkway I just finished. It was a 3' x 11' area, and by carefully sizing the sub-base, I was able to do the whole job by cutting a total of four bricks in half. Had the base been an inch smaller on the long side, and an inch longer on the 3' side, I could of easily needed to custom cut 25-30 bricks, instead of four cuts.

As for the subfloor, I would cut the proper size area out of the hardwood, then install a single piece of a B-C grade 5/8" fir plywood. I would screw it to the subfloor on 4" centers in each direction with 1-5/8" deck screws. Easier to work with than any concrete board, MUCH stiffer than 1/2 Hardie board, and a perfectly acceptable tile base for this application.  For a small job like this I would use the premixed wet thinset, and premixed wet grout. Both tend to be a lot more flexible, and work great for small projects.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-Premium-Mortar-Off-white-Mastic-Flooring-Adhesive-1-Gallon/3056531

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-0-5-Gallon-Warm-Gray-Sanded-Premixed-Grout/50333389


ChpBstrd

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2017, 09:43:03 PM »
You have nice historic, old growth hardwood floors that look to be in pretty decent shape.  That's quite valuable and obviously it's a shame to cover them up with pergo.

I'd give up on your plan for tile and embrace the hardwood floor.  Sometimes it takes us years to realize we've had something incredibly awesome right beneath our noses but our stubborn and often arbitrary preferences kept us from appreciating it.

I will grant you that tile is lower maintenance and easier to clean liquid messes from, but consider the cost - having the hardwood floors removed, having the subfloor prepped, having the tile installed, plus cost of desired materials and cost of hauling away unwanted materials.  And your property value will remain the same or go down.  Given what skilled remodeling costs these days, that's pretty hefty for a preference, not an investment or an improvement.

Oh, I know this is nice hardwood! It needs to be refinished, but overall is in decent shape. Hardwood right in front of the front door is a bad idea however, what with tracking in wet from outside. I will not be surprised to see water damage in that area when I pull up the Pergo. I plan to do just a small area with the tile. Basically, where the Pergo is currently, without measuring I'm guessing 3x8 foot, maybe a bit less. The rest of the hardwood I'll leave alone.

Refinishing all the hardwoods with a nice thick waterproof coating of polyurethane or resin would address this concern. Check out your options. The whole concern is having to refinish the hardwood floors every 30 years, but if you were doing that anyway... see where I'm going?

Finally, here's a weird idea. What if you made a "tile rug" by mortaring tile on top of a piece of concrete board and just letting it all float on top of the hardwoods unattached (with construction paper or underlayment in between). For the edges, you might find bull nose pieces of tile or box around it with base shoe boards stained to approximate the wood floor.  No, it might not last forever, but instead of a home improvement nightmare digging up existing flooring you'd have an easily reversible solution that cost maybe $40-50 and 3-4 hours. Additional bonus: you can go wild with the design without worrying about the home's resale value. Hell, build a series and swap them out with the seasons :)

Goldielocks

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2017, 12:28:56 AM »
I have tile over a plywood sub floor.   The tile installer put in metal lathe (mesh) for the mortar, then the large tile over that.   They do still shift a bit... so I recommend the following:

1.  Cut out the hardwood in the section next to the door.  Your sub floor may have opening between the wood pieces, or it may be plywood..  This will gain you another 3/4 of an inch, at least.
2.  Put in a backer board for your slip layer..a thin floating cementitious board is better.. other options available.
3.  Use a full mortar bed (thick set motar bed)  as you have the height available.   This is extremely durable and sturdy, for the long-haul.  It is the classic italian method for tile floors that last 50 years.
4.  Tile.

https://www.tcnatile.com/faqs/71-thick-setthick-bed.html

My concern with tiling over the hardwood is also about a huge transition in height between the tile and the remaining floor.
3.

paddedhat

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2017, 05:37:42 AM »
I have tile over a plywood sub floor.   The tile installer put in metal lathe (mesh) for the mortar, then the large tile over that.   They do still shift a bit... so I recommend the following:

1.  Cut out the hardwood in the section next to the door.  Your sub floor may have opening between the wood pieces, or it may be plywood..  This will gain you another 3/4 of an inch, at least.
2.  Put in a backer board for your slip layer..a thin floating cementitious board is better.. other options available.
3.  Use a full mortar bed (thick set motar bed)  as you have the height available.   This is extremely durable and sturdy, for the long-haul.  It is the classic italian method for tile floors that last 50 years.
4.  Tile.

https://www.tcnatile.com/faqs/71-thick-setthick-bed.html

My concern with tiling over the hardwood is also about a huge transition in height between the tile and the remaining floor.
3.

The very last thing all DIYers ,and a lot of tile installation pros. need to be screwing with, is a mortar bed tile installation. Mortar beds are about as good as it gets when it comes to a top notch job, assuming it's still 1965. At this point there is simply no logical reason, with the exception of shower pans, for anybody to get involved in a technique that is complex, involves a great deal of skill and experience to do well, and has been replaced with methods and materials that are exponentially easier and faster, with decades of proven performance.

Your tiles "shift a bit" because the installation failed. With a second layer of subfloor/ tile backer, and the use of an acrylic modified thinset, on top of your plywood subfloor, you would of had a defect free installation.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Install tile over hardwood - how?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2017, 07:05:46 AM »
Mortar shower bed *shudders*.     Why are people still doing this with such a high failure rate?    So many are done incorrectly.