Author Topic: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons  (Read 3852 times)

taiwwa

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rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« on: May 07, 2017, 08:17:29 AM »
I bought some winter tires and wheels last fall. On reflection, it might make more sense to just have two sets of wheels, both all seasons, and whenever buying new tires to buy them at the start of winter, so they are grippiest during the cold season.

Reason is that winter tires shouldnt be used in summer and also as they get older and wear down their winter utility decreases.

sokoloff

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2017, 08:59:17 AM »
What's the second set of all seasons for in this plan? Are you going to run a new set for the winter, then take them off and wear out the older set in the summer?

Rubber ages with time, ozone, and UV exposure. Why not just replace tires when worn and save the hassle and expense of a second set?

Winter tires are noticeably better than all-seasons in cold and snow. That's why people bother with two sets of wheels and changing/storing them. If I was just putting deeper treaded all seasons on, I sure wouldn't bother.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2017, 10:29:14 AM »
Winter tires are noticeably better than all-seasons in cold and snow. That's why people bother with two sets of wheels and changing/storing them. If I was just putting deeper treaded all seasons on, I sure wouldn't bother.
This.  All-season tires are horrible in winter conditions compared to winter-tires.  Not just on snow & ice, but whenever the temperatures are very cold because the rubber compounds used in all-season tires is much harder in cold weather.

Owning a set of winter tires and a set of summer/all-season tires costs about hte same as two sets of all-season tires, and will result in dramatically better handling in winter conditions.  Yes, winter tires wear much faster when it's warm outside  (>68F/20C) but that's why you've got the summer/all-season.

HipGnosis

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2017, 04:26:32 PM »
Modern all-season tires are way better on snow than tires of not-so-long-ago.
'Needing' winter tires depends on where you are (amount of snow, conditions of roads and how well snow is plowed where you need to go), vehicle (2wd, 4wd, etc), your skill to drive in snow and your need to go somewhere during a snowstorm, before the roads get plowed.

My solution, for my somewhat high performance, front wheel drive car; 2 pairs of all season tires.  One pair is performance orientated and the other is better on snow.  I rotate them front-back in fall and spring.

Debts_of_Despair

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2017, 04:30:05 PM »
Winter tires are noticeably better than all-seasons in cold and snow. That's why people bother with two sets of wheels and changing/storing them. If I was just putting deeper treaded all seasons on, I sure wouldn't bother.
This.  All-season tires are horrible in winter conditions compared to winter-tires.  Not just on snow & ice, but whenever the temperatures are very cold because the rubber compounds used in all-season tires is much harder in cold weather.

Owning a set of winter tires and a set of summer/all-season tires costs about hte same as two sets of all-season tires, and will result in dramatically better handling in winter conditions.  Yes, winter tires wear much faster when it's warm outside  (>68F/20C) but that's why you've got the summer/all-season.

If you don't drive a lot of miles, there is a good chance one or both sets could need replacement due to age rather than miles.  In this case, the cost would not be the same.

JLee

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 04:32:42 PM »
Modern all-season tires are way better on snow than tires of not-so-long-ago.
'Needing' winter tires depends on where you are (amount of snow, conditions of roads and how well snow is plowed where you need to go), vehicle (2wd, 4wd, etc), your skill to drive in snow and your need to go somewhere during a snowstorm, before the roads get plowed.

My solution, for my somewhat high performance, front wheel drive car; 2 pairs of all season tires.  One pair is performance orientated and the other is better on snow.  I rotate them front-back in fall and spring.

That can be very dangerous. If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the front, the back end of the car will swing around on you much easier (fishtailing / oversteer). If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the back, you're compromising acceleration, braking, and turning ability (but at least you shouldn't inadvertently swap ends).

TireRack won't sell snow tires in sets of two for safety reasons.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 06:08:35 PM »
Winter tires are noticeably better than all-seasons in cold and snow. That's why people bother with two sets of wheels and changing/storing them. If I was just putting deeper treaded all seasons on, I sure wouldn't bother.
This.  All-season tires are horrible in winter conditions compared to winter-tires.  Not just on snow & ice, but whenever the temperatures are very cold because the rubber compounds used in all-season tires is much harder in cold weather.

Owning a set of winter tires and a set of summer/all-season tires costs about hte same as two sets of all-season tires, and will result in dramatically better handling in winter conditions.  Yes, winter tires wear much faster when it's warm outside  (>68ºF/20ºC) but that's why you've got the summer/all-season.

If you don't drive a lot of miles, there is a good chance one or both sets could need replacement due to age rather than miles.  In this case, the cost would not be the same.
Hypothetically yes, but you still the same problem- two sets of all-season tires which will need replacement due to old age before they wear out.  Maybe I'm missing something?


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taiwwa

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2017, 04:50:00 AM »
Winter tires are noticeably better than all-seasons in cold and snow. That's why people bother with two sets of wheels and changing/storing them. If I was just putting deeper treaded all seasons on, I sure wouldn't bother.
This.  All-season tires are horrible in winter conditions compared to winter-tires.  Not just on snow & ice, but whenever the temperatures are very cold because the rubber compounds used in all-season tires is much harder in cold weather.

Owning a set of winter tires and a set of summer/all-season tires costs about hte same as two sets of all-season tires, and will result in dramatically better handling in winter conditions.  Yes, winter tires wear much faster when it's warm outside  (>68F/20C) but that's why you've got the summer/all-season.

If you don't drive a lot of miles, there is a good chance one or both sets could need replacement due to age rather than miles.  In this case, the cost would not be the same.
Hypothetically yes, but you still the same problem- two sets of all-season tires which will need replacement due to old age before they wear out.  Maybe I'm missing something?


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You can use all-seasons in summer too.

The idea is that you use new all seasons as "winter tires" and as new tires they will have the best grip. As they age, put them into summer service.

Right now it looks like my winter tires will be relatively low mileage and will rot before they wear out. And in the later years they probably won't even be that great for winter driving due to the tire wear.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2017, 06:26:50 AM »

Right now it looks like my winter tires will be relatively low mileage and will rot before they wear out. And in the later years they probably won't even be that great for winter driving due to the tire wear.
wait, what...??
First off, how many years are we talking about?  As long as they get some use each year, modern tires will last a decade or so. We drive maybe 3,000 miles in the winter months here and we just finished season 5 on these tires... we've got a few more seasons left.
Second, you cannot have both problems - either they 'rot out' before they wear out, or they wear out before they rot.

As long as you have the minimum acceptable tread left on the tire, late-model winter tires will still outperform brand-spakin'-new all seasons.

TheThirstyStag

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2017, 09:03:10 AM »
My half-worn blizzaks are far superior in sub-freezing dry pavement, ice, and snow than a new set of all-seasons.  If you are going through the trouble of rotating with a second set of rims/tires, it's a no-brainer to use winter tires. 

All-season tires are like sneakers.  Winter tires are like alpine trekkers, and summer tires are like Tevas.  Sure, you can buy two sets of sneakers for both summer and winter and swap them out, but your feet can do better.

I agree with HipGnosis that newer all-season tires have come a long way, but so have winter tires in the last decade.  My blizzaks are the best purchase I've made for my wife's FWD econobox.  I'd rather drive that in the winter than an all-wheel drive vehicle with new all-seasons. 

marielle

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 09:09:54 AM »
I kinda get envious of people who have the opportunity for winter tires, because then that means you get to drive on summer tires. But nope, it never snows here so it's "no season" tires for me. I would never opt for all season tires when I have the chance to drive on some awesome summer tires. They grip better for performance in warm weather, stop faster, handle better in rain, etc. I guess not everyone cares about performance though.

lthenderson

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 09:32:20 AM »
I have found many people deliberate this point because they pay to have someone mount and unmount tires on the factory rims twice a year. I long ago found out that if you go to your neighborhood junkyard and pick up a couple ugly steel rims for a few bucks each and mount your winter tires permanently on those, it is much cheaper and then it is an easy DIY project to swap your tires twice a year.

I have a small FWD Honda Civic and I just swap out the front wheels with my Blizzaks in the fall. I know they recommend having four but my problem has never been stopping, it is getting going at slippery intersections, especially if slightly uphill. My Blizzaks do that job nicely, are now 6 years old and still have quite a bit of life to them.

marielle

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2017, 09:45:09 AM »
I have found many people deliberate this point because they pay to have someone mount and unmount tires on the factory rims twice a year. I long ago found out that if you go to your neighborhood junkyard and pick up a couple ugly steel rims for a few bucks each and mount your winter tires permanently on those, it is much cheaper and then it is an easy DIY project to swap your tires twice a year.

I have a small FWD Honda Civic and I just swap out the front wheels with my Blizzaks in the fall. I know they recommend having four but my problem has never been stopping, it is getting going at slippery intersections, especially if slightly uphill. My Blizzaks do that job nicely, are now 6 years old and still have quite a bit of life to them.

Yeah, but OP mentioned already having bought another set of wheels, so not sure why this is even a question. They are called no season tires for a reason, they suck even at in-between temperatures when compared to summer or winter tires. I wouldn't want to drive on sup-par tires if there was an easy option of having optimal performance year round. I keep a stupid amount of tools in a 800 sqft apartment shared with a roommate, so there's no excuse. Keep the wheels under your bed or something.

Clean Shaven

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2017, 11:10:04 AM »
We do the "two sets of all seasons" on a 4WD that my wife drives.  We live where most of her driving is on dry roads, even in winter -- but when it snows, it dumps a LOT.  So you'll want good traction for that, and the 4WD + fresh all-seasons works fine.  OTOH, for the amount of dry road driving (in 40*+ temps) that she does, she would kill a set of winter tires every single year, so that doesn't make sense. 

I bought a second set of OEM wheels off craigslist for $100.  She uses the fresh(est) set of all-seasons in winter, then swaps over to the more-worn-out set of tires for summer, until they are dead.  Since we live somewhere that it barely rains in summer, this strategy lets us run down the old all-seasons to the wear bars.  If we were using only one set of wheels, I wouldn't be comfortable going into winter with all-seasons at, say, 4/32" tread depth -- even though they have plenty of life left for summer use.

I do have a set of true winter tires for my car, because I drive a lot less than my wife does, so I'm not going to wear those out instantly.  Those are also mounted on a craigslist set of used OEM wheels.  My 3-season set for my car are "ultra high performance" all-seasons -- basically as close to summer as possible, but keeping just a touch of winter usability.  This lets me wait to swap over to winter until late November (when it gets cold enough, and/or consistent snowfall is expected), and swap back to 3-season tires by mid-March (when daytime highs consistently hit 45*, and the snow dumps taper off).  I can still drive on snow if needed, on my "all-seasons" -- just doing it carefully.  If I used true "summer" tires, they're a lot more temperature sensitive, and scary in a fluke snowstorm in early autumn or late winter.

I've also seen many arguments for a true "summer" branded tire + "winter" tire, claiming that it's cheaper than running down one set of all-seasons.  I don't think that's necessarily true.  "Summer" performance tires cost considerably more than an all-season, and don't last that long.  You do pay a penalty for that added performance, in $ and in treadlife.  The tire manufacturers sell a lot more "all-season" tires than "summer," so there is more competition and more availability. 

There is also a wide range of all-season tires available -- from "touring" passenger car cruising tires that'll run 80K miles on a gently driven Buick, to "high performance" or "ultra high performance" ones that'll perform in dry much better, but still not quite as sticky as a true "summer" tire. 

Tradeoffs on all of this, as usual.  YMMV.


HipGnosis

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2017, 02:24:41 PM »
Modern all-season tires are way better on snow than tires of not-so-long-ago.
'Needing' winter tires depends on where you are (amount of snow, conditions of roads and how well snow is plowed where you need to go), vehicle (2wd, 4wd, etc), your skill to drive in snow and your need to go somewhere during a snowstorm, before the roads get plowed.

My solution, for my somewhat high performance, front wheel drive car; 2 pairs of all season tires.  One pair is performance orientated and the other is better on snow.  I rotate them front-back in fall and spring.
That can be very dangerous. If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the front, the back end of the car will swing around on you much easier (fishtailing / oversteer). If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the back, you're compromising acceleration, braking, and turning ability (but at least you shouldn't inadvertently swap ends).
Like I said, it's a front wheel drive car.  The rear just follows along the front, in all but sheer ice conditions.  Rear tires have no effect on acceleration, and the most braking on (vitually) all cars is on the front.  Turning ability?  That's not even a strong enough argument to be called straw man.

HipGnosis

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2017, 02:30:05 PM »

Right now it looks like my winter tires will be relatively low mileage and will rot before they wear out. And in the later years they probably won't even be that great for winter driving due to the tire wear.
wait, what...??
First off, how many years are we talking about?  As long as they get some use each year, modern tires will last a decade or so. We drive maybe 3,000 miles in the winter months here and we just finished season 5 on these tires... we've got a few more seasons left.
Second, you cannot have both problems - either they 'rot out' before they wear out, or they wear out before they rot.

As long as you have the minimum acceptable tread left on the tire, late-model winter tires will still outperform brand-spakin'-new all seasons.
Um, that's just wrong.
Tires harden from ozone and UV, regardless of miles used or tread.  Old winter tires will only outperform new all-seasons on powdery snow.  They will be absolutely dangerous on ice.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2017, 02:45:20 PM »

Right now it looks like my winter tires will be relatively low mileage and will rot before they wear out. And in the later years they probably won't even be that great for winter driving due to the tire wear.
wait, what...??
First off, how many years are we talking about?  As long as they get some use each year, modern tires will last a decade or so. We drive maybe 3,000 miles in the winter months here and we just finished season 5 on these tires... we've got a few more seasons left.
Second, you cannot have both problems - either they 'rot out' before they wear out, or they wear out before they rot.

As long as you have the minimum acceptable tread left on the tire, late-model winter tires will still outperform brand-spakin'-new all seasons.
Um, that's just wrong.
Tires harden from ozone and UV, regardless of miles used or tread.  Old winter tires will only outperform new all-seasons on powdery snow.  They will be absolutely dangerous on ice.
I've never seen anything to support this position, and plenty that suggests the opposite.
Ignoring tire age for a second, winter tires do better than all-seasons in cold weather on dry pavement.(1)(3)
Winter tires have better acceleration and stopping power on ice.(2) (3)
winter tires allow tighter cornering on ice (2)(3)
...and winter tires are of course superior to all-seasons with both powdery snow (3) and packed snow (3)

I can't find anything comparing used winter tires vs fresh all-season tires, but having driven on winter tires with ~50% tread remaining and brand-new all-seasons I've observed that the winter tires are still much, much better in the cold.  It's not even close.

If you can find your own sources showing where new all-seasons perform better on ice than used (but still safe) winter tires I'd be very interested in seeing that.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/why-you-still-need-winter-tires-on-dry-pavement/article4180768/
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3111/can-all-season-tires-really-handle-the-snow/

JLee

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2017, 06:02:43 PM »
Modern all-season tires are way better on snow than tires of not-so-long-ago.
'Needing' winter tires depends on where you are (amount of snow, conditions of roads and how well snow is plowed where you need to go), vehicle (2wd, 4wd, etc), your skill to drive in snow and your need to go somewhere during a snowstorm, before the roads get plowed.

My solution, for my somewhat high performance, front wheel drive car; 2 pairs of all season tires.  One pair is performance orientated and the other is better on snow.  I rotate them front-back in fall and spring.
That can be very dangerous. If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the front, the back end of the car will swing around on you much easier (fishtailing / oversteer). If you're putting the snow-friendly tires on the back, you're compromising acceleration, braking, and turning ability (but at least you shouldn't inadvertently swap ends).
Like I said, it's a front wheel drive car.  The rear just follows along the front, in all but sheer ice conditions.  Rear tires have no effect on acceleration, and the most braking on (vitually) all cars is on the front.  Turning ability?  That's not even a strong enough argument to be called straw man.

It's a strong enough argument that every source I was able to find agrees with me -- you want four winter tires, and in any situation where only two tires are replaced, the best tires go on the back.

http://www.epicski.com/t/78660/are-4-snow-tires-needed-on-a-front-wheel-drive-car
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=136
https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=52
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=34
http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/equipment/two-or-four-winter-tires
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/motorvehiclesafety/safevehicles-safetyfeatures-wintertires-index-468.htm
http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/26_58_06#section19.03
http://caradvice.askpatty.com/ask_patty_/2014/06/replacing-two-new-tires-do-they-go-in-front-or-back-.html#sthash.1Ge63Qlz.dpbs

Running two winter tires is illegal in Sweden. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7xXDMkVFlE

If you have a proper source to cite, please feel free.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 06:09:16 PM by JLee »

RetiredAt63

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2017, 06:23:17 PM »
They are not SNOW tires, they are WINTER tires - anything below 7oC means you should be driving on winter tires.  They are a softer rubber compound and grip better in the cold.  The tread pattern determines how well they do on snow/ice/bare pavement, but the key is that the tire itself flexes and grips.  Plus you can put your winter tires on sturdy ugly rims for spring pothole season, and save the pretty rims for summer.

I've driven a 4WD car in early December on all-seasons, and it was horrible. 

HipGnosis

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2017, 07:51:45 PM »
Um, that's just wrong.
Tires harden from ozone and UV, regardless of miles used or tread.  Old winter tires will only outperform new all-seasons on powdery snow.  They will be absolutely dangerous on ice.
I've never seen anything to support this position, and plenty that suggests the opposite.
Ignoring tire age for a second, winter tires do better than all-seasons in cold weather on dry pavement.(1)(3)
Winter tires have better acceleration and stopping power on ice.(2) (3)
winter tires allow tighter cornering on ice (2)(3)
...and winter tires are of course superior to all-seasons with both powdery snow (3) and packed snow (3)

I can't find anything comparing used winter tires vs fresh all-season tires, but having driven on winter tires with ~50% tread remaining and brand-new all-seasons I've observed that the winter tires are still much, much better in the cold.  It's not even close.

If you can find your own sources showing where new all-seasons perform better on ice than used (but still safe) winter tires I'd be very interested in seeing that.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/why-you-still-need-winter-tires-on-dry-pavement/article4180768/
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3111/can-all-season-tires-really-handle-the-snow/
Ignoring age at all makes is a straw man argument.   Which means you don't have a valid counter-point.

JLee

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2017, 08:15:11 PM »
Um, that's just wrong.
Tires harden from ozone and UV, regardless of miles used or tread.  Old winter tires will only outperform new all-seasons on powdery snow.  They will be absolutely dangerous on ice.
I've never seen anything to support this position, and plenty that suggests the opposite.
Ignoring tire age for a second, winter tires do better than all-seasons in cold weather on dry pavement.(1)(3)
Winter tires have better acceleration and stopping power on ice.(2) (3)
winter tires allow tighter cornering on ice (2)(3)
...and winter tires are of course superior to all-seasons with both powdery snow (3) and packed snow (3)

I can't find anything comparing used winter tires vs fresh all-season tires, but having driven on winter tires with ~50% tread remaining and brand-new all-seasons I've observed that the winter tires are still much, much better in the cold.  It's not even close.

If you can find your own sources showing where new all-seasons perform better on ice than used (but still safe) winter tires I'd be very interested in seeing that.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/why-you-still-need-winter-tires-on-dry-pavement/article4180768/
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3111/can-all-season-tires-really-handle-the-snow/
Ignoring age at all makes is a straw man argument.   Which means you don't have a valid counter-point.

You have yet to provide any sources.  Please do so if you're going to continue this silliness.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 05:26:26 AM »

Ignoring age at all makes is a straw man argument.   Which means you don't have a valid counter-point.

You're just being glib.  See the second half of my post - I'll re-quote it for you:
Quote
I can't find anything comparing used winter tires vs fresh all-season tires, but having driven on winter tires with ~50% tread remaining and brand-new all-seasons I've observed that the winter tires are still much, much better in the cold.  It's not even close.

If you can find your own sources showing where new all-seasons perform better on ice than used (but still safe) winter tires I'd be very interested in seeing that.

To reiterate retiredat63, these are *winter* tires, not *snow* tires.  This seems like an automobile myth that just won't die...
In cold weather, winter tires exceed all-season tires on snow, on ice, and on dry pavement.  In any of those circumstances they have shorter stopping distances, better acceleration and tighter cornering.   Almost every major car magazine + many other groups have done side-by-side comparisons.  About ten or so are linked in this thread.

I've driven cars with new all-seasons in snowy conditions (mostly to move them from our motor-pool to our winter storage facility) and it sucks.  I've driven many cars with winter tires that have several seasons on them and in all cases they have been much better.

MightyAl

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 05:32:21 AM »
Winter tires in winter trump all season every time.  I fail to see how AWD with all seasons will brake better then any car with winter tires.

I owned an 03 BMW M3 and drove it year round.  Swapped on the winter wheels and tires in November and took them off in March.  I was passing the big SUVs with AWD all the time and the control was great.  I had the same setup when I owned my STI.  All season are worse than average at everything.

Car Jack

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 06:55:21 AM »
Many people have their own ideas about what they want to do.  My father in law spends extra money for an all wheel drive Subaru but absolutely refuses to buy winter tires because "they're more noisy than all seasons".  To which I have to say that Subarus in general sound like a tin can with the wheels tie wrapped to them (I currently own 2 Subarus and have had another half dozen over the years).

Ok....onto winter tire discussion.  First, as said, the rubber compound is such that the tires remain pliable and grip the surface far better when the temperature drops.  If the tires have sipes (small slits), they work extremely well even on ice.  These are called "ice tires" so, I guess that's why they do well on ice (well, duh).

Next.....winter tires DO wear faster, especially in the summer.  But guess what else?  Winter tires start with a tread depth that's 25% or more deeper than all seasons.  What that means is that they can wear 25% faster and run even with all seasons for wear.

Why am I talking about all this?  Is it because I haven't had enough coffee?  Or too much coffee?  Well, maybe.  But I've run several cars on only winter tires.  Case in point.  We bought our 08 Subaru Outback used with 10k miles on it.  It was a former loaner car and as part of the deal, I had the dealer install Dunlop Graspic winter tires.  These were the only tires we ever had on the car.  We traded the car in with 89k miles with the SAME TIRES.  79k miles on a set of winter tires sounds pretty good to me.

Currently, we have a Crosstrek.  From another Subaru, we have a set of wheels with winter tires (Dunlop Graspic) which we now use on our 04 outback in the winter and on the Crosstrek in the summer.  They drive fine, are good in the rain and save the brand new General Arctic Altimax snows we bought for the Crosstrek because one of the OEM all season tires got a spike through the sidewall on the road last summer. 

We drive a lot of miles but have 4 cars total (4 drivers too).  So there are times we have non-snows.  They have always come with the car when we acquired it and we run them in the summer.  But when a set of summer/all seasons wear out, we only buy winter tires as replacements.


HipGnosis

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 08:50:53 AM »
You have yet to provide any sources.  Please do so if you're going to continue this silliness.
My source is my personal and extended families experiences.
I started driving at 13 on a farm in Minn.   The road by the farm wasn't plowed for days.  We used the 4x4 pickup then.  They never had snow tires.  Either all terrain or mud & snow.  Our cars never had 4 snow tires on em, just the drive tires.  I recall a few older folks that put 4 snow tires on their cars...  they didn't have a 4x4.
An anecdote of our winters - My aunt went into labor in winter.  The ambulance they sent to get her got stuck in the snow.  They sent another ambulance.  It got stuck in the snow going to the hospital.  A big truck towed it thru the snow drift.
I now live in Wisc.  A little bit south, so a little bit less snow.
I never said all seasons were the best in winter.  The best would be to buy a 4x4, a new one every fall.  Or a snowmobile. Or a snowcat... 
I pass 4x4s w/ aggressive tires all the time in winter - I am an expert winter driver. 
Like I said previously, the NEED for winter tires over all seasons varies on multiple factors.  I do not need winter tires.  Not everyone does.
BTW; I also don't need summer tires on my car.  I have 3 motorcycles.  They have 'summer' tires.

nereo

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 09:33:14 AM »

You have yet to provide any sources.  Please do so if you're going to continue this silliness.
My source is my personal and extended families experiences.
I started driving at 13 on a farm in Minn.   The road by the farm wasn't plowed for days.  We used the 4x4 pickup then.  They never had snow tires.  Either all terrain or mud & snow.  Our cars never had 4 snow tires on em, just the drive tires.  I recall a few older folks that put 4 snow tires on their cars...  they didn't have a 4x4.
An anecdote of our winters - My aunt went into labor in winter.  The ambulance they sent to get her got stuck in the snow.  They sent another ambulance.  It got stuck in the snow going to the hospital.  A big truck towed it thru the snow drift.
I now live in Wisc.  A little bit south, so a little bit less snow.
I never said all seasons were the best in winter.  The best would be to buy a 4x4, a new one every fall.  Or a snowmobile. Or a snowcat... 
I pass 4x4s w/ aggressive tires all the time in winter - I am an expert winter driver. 
Like I said previously, the NEED for winter tires over all seasons varies on multiple factors.  I do not need winter tires.  Not everyone does.
BTW; I also don't need summer tires on my car.  I have 3 motorcycles.  They have 'summer' tires.
Personal experience is one from of evidence, but pretty low on the hierarchy.  You also seem to be saying that modern all-season tires have improved while comparing them to winter tires from your childhood which was presumably decades ago.  Then you make statements about winter tires being 'absolutely dangerous on ice' which is just plain false - test after test show that modern winter tires perform better on ice than modern all-seasons.  A FWD equipped with winter tires even beats out an AWD with all-seasons. There are also lots of studies and articles detailing exactly why the tire with the best grip go on the rear wheels, even for FWD vehicles.

I don't dispute that not everyone (particularly those in less severe climates) needs a set of winter tires - I only dispute statements questioning their performance in cold weather. Certainly my retired parents who live in a location that sees only a few snowstorms a year and never *need* to drive when the roads aren't good have no need for winter tires. The OP asked about rotating two sets of all-season tires each winter.  THat still makes no sense to me - if you're going to go through the trouble of having and changing two sets of tires, it makes the most sense (to me) to use the tires that will perform overall the best in winter conditions, and then use another set that will perform well during the other 3 seasons. Switching between two sets of all-seasons seems like the worst of all conditions - still the complication of multiple sets but with reduced performance in cold weather.  Worse, I still cannot understand how this plan will be of any benefit after the first winter - at that point the OP will have two sets of used all-season tires.

OP - there have been a lot of articles and videos linked throughout.  I highly recommend you browse them.  If you decide that your climate and circumstances don't warrant winter tires I'd stick with a single set of all-seasons throughout the year.  If you frequently drive in ice/snow/slush or in conditions where it's below 45F/7C I strongly recommend winter tires during those months.  That's all...

sequoia

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2017, 01:01:21 PM »
I don't dispute that not everyone (particularly those in less severe climates) needs a set of winter tires - I only dispute statements questioning their performance in cold weather. Certainly my retired parents who live in a location that sees only a few snowstorms a year and never *need* to drive when the roads aren't good have no need for winter tires. The OP asked about rotating two sets of all-season tires each winter.  THat still makes no sense to me - if you're going to go through the trouble of having and changing two sets of tires, it makes the most sense (to me) to use the tires that will perform overall the best in winter conditions, and then use another set that will perform well during the other 3 seasons. Switching between two sets of all-seasons seems like the worst of all conditions - still the complication of multiple sets but with reduced performance in cold weather.  Worse, I still cannot understand how this plan will be of any benefit after the first winter - at that point the OP will have two sets of used all-season tires.

OP - there have been a lot of articles and videos linked throughout.  I highly recommend you browse them.  If you decide that your climate and circumstances don't warrant winter tires I'd stick with a single set of all-seasons throughout the year.  If you frequently drive in ice/snow/slush or in conditions where it's below 45F/7C I strongly recommend winter tires during those months.  That's all...

^ this. If you want to have 2 sets, then get one set of winter tires, and one set of all season. For any tires, get the best sets that you can afford - you can read reviews over internet.

JLee

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2017, 04:43:35 PM »

You have yet to provide any sources.  Please do so if you're going to continue this silliness.
My source is my personal and extended families experiences.
I started driving at 13 on a farm in Minn.   The road by the farm wasn't plowed for days.  We used the 4x4 pickup then.  They never had snow tires.  Either all terrain or mud & snow.  Our cars never had 4 snow tires on em, just the drive tires.  I recall a few older folks that put 4 snow tires on their cars...  they didn't have a 4x4.
An anecdote of our winters - My aunt went into labor in winter.  The ambulance they sent to get her got stuck in the snow.  They sent another ambulance.  It got stuck in the snow going to the hospital.  A big truck towed it thru the snow drift.
I now live in Wisc.  A little bit south, so a little bit less snow.
I never said all seasons were the best in winter.  The best would be to buy a 4x4, a new one every fall.  Or a snowmobile. Or a snowcat... 
I pass 4x4s w/ aggressive tires all the time in winter - I am an expert winter driver. 
Like I said previously, the NEED for winter tires over all seasons varies on multiple factors.  I do not need winter tires.  Not everyone does.
BTW; I also don't need summer tires on my car.  I have 3 motorcycles.  They have 'summer' tires.
Personal experience is one from of evidence, but pretty low on the hierarchy.  You also seem to be saying that modern all-season tires have improved while comparing them to winter tires from your childhood which was presumably decades ago.  Then you make statements about winter tires being 'absolutely dangerous on ice' which is just plain false - test after test show that modern winter tires perform better on ice than modern all-seasons.  A FWD equipped with winter tires even beats out an AWD with all-seasons. There are also lots of studies and articles detailing exactly why the tire with the best grip go on the rear wheels, even for FWD vehicles.

I don't dispute that not everyone (particularly those in less severe climates) needs a set of winter tires - I only dispute statements questioning their performance in cold weather. Certainly my retired parents who live in a location that sees only a few snowstorms a year and never *need* to drive when the roads aren't good have no need for winter tires. The OP asked about rotating two sets of all-season tires each winter.  THat still makes no sense to me - if you're going to go through the trouble of having and changing two sets of tires, it makes the most sense (to me) to use the tires that will perform overall the best in winter conditions, and then use another set that will perform well during the other 3 seasons. Switching between two sets of all-seasons seems like the worst of all conditions - still the complication of multiple sets but with reduced performance in cold weather.  Worse, I still cannot understand how this plan will be of any benefit after the first winter - at that point the OP will have two sets of used all-season tires.

OP - there have been a lot of articles and videos linked throughout.  I highly recommend you browse them.  If you decide that your climate and circumstances don't warrant winter tires I'd stick with a single set of all-seasons throughout the year.  If you frequently drive in ice/snow/slush or in conditions where it's below 45F/7C I strongly recommend winter tires during those months.  That's all...

^^ Agreed.

I have Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac tires on my truck now.  I fully expect it to perform worse than the snow tires I bought for my Mazda, but since I live in NJ and we only get a couple snowstorms a year I'm going to give them a shot.

You have yet to provide any sources.  Please do so if you're going to continue this silliness.
My source is my personal and extended families experiences.
I started driving at 13 on a farm in Minn.   The road by the farm wasn't plowed for days.  We used the 4x4 pickup then.  They never had snow tires.  Either all terrain or mud & snow.  Our cars never had 4 snow tires on em, just the drive tires.  I recall a few older folks that put 4 snow tires on their cars...  they didn't have a 4x4.
An anecdote of our winters - My aunt went into labor in winter.  The ambulance they sent to get her got stuck in the snow.  They sent another ambulance.  It got stuck in the snow going to the hospital.  A big truck towed it thru the snow drift.
I now live in Wisc.  A little bit south, so a little bit less snow.
I never said all seasons were the best in winter.  The best would be to buy a 4x4, a new one every fall.  Or a snowmobile. Or a snowcat... 
I pass 4x4s w/ aggressive tires all the time in winter - I am an expert winter driver. 
Like I said previously, the NEED for winter tires over all seasons varies on multiple factors.  I do not need winter tires.  Not everyone does.
BTW; I also don't need summer tires on my car.  I have 3 motorcycles.  They have 'summer' tires.

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RetiredAt63

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Re: rather than Winter tires and wheels, new all seasons
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2017, 02:19:48 PM »
AWD with all seasons are not as good as ordinary drive with winter tires.  I've driven both.  My Mazda3 with winter tires does much better than my Subaru Legacy AWD did with all seasons.  Ideal is AWD with winter tires, I liked my Subaru for the clearance in hay fields (dog shows, country fairs, etc.) and the handling in blizzards, with winter tires.  All-seasons and AWD will have you slithering in slush at barely freezing temperatures.