Author Topic: gas stove with a small gas tank  (Read 6612 times)

warmastoast

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gas stove with a small gas tank
« on: February 14, 2016, 11:34:11 AM »
I've got a really awful, power hungry electric stove top.   I'd really like an induction one like I had in France but they are soooooo expensive here and I can't really justify spending at least $1k on a new one.  Why are they so much more expensive here?  (Is there any chance that I can get someone to bring one to the US for me?  Will it work here?)

So, second option is to get a gas cooktop.  Amazon has some really good ones for less than $300.  BUT there is no gas supply to my neighbourhood.  Does anyone know if I could just connect the stove to a small gas tank - like the ones used for a gas bbq?  Would it be against building code/insurance regulations to put this tank in my kitchen cupboard next to the cooktop?  I have  corner cupboard that would be ideal.


Spork

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 01:48:15 PM »
There was just a thread about almost exactly this topic a week or so ago... you might search for more of the answers.

I believe by code the tank is supposed to be outside.

I can't speak for specific gas appliances.  But normally the difference between natural gas and propane is the size of the orifice.  Some appliances have adjustable orifices.  Some have a cap you remove and replace with a smaller one.

Propane is much more explosive than NG, so it will have a smaller orifice.  On my stove, with adjustable orifices, you just crank the adjustment all the way down as far as it will go for propane (leaving a teeny, tiny, barely there hole.)

Papa Mustache

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 06:35:40 PM »
Around here people have a large propane tank in their backyard to run gas appliances.

When I lived in Italy we had portable propane tanks (bombalas) for the stove and dryer. Sat outside, hose ran into the house through the wall. Was enough to get use through a month or so as I recall.

You could run a regular American gas stove on a portable tank depending on the building codes in your area.

daverobev

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lthenderson

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 07:20:33 AM »
Lots of rural folks use propane tanks out in their yard to run appliances. They are much larger than the BBQ ones but most gas places will rent them to you or even give them to you as long as you fill up through them. Once you no longer buy gas through them, they will then come and haul it away. I would shy away from small tanks not only because of code issues but convenience issues. You will be running out of gas quite often and most likely at the most inconvenient of times. If you aren't, then you are refilling partially full tanks and throwing money away.

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 09:53:59 AM »
Lots of rural folks use propane tanks out in their yard to run appliances. They are much larger than the BBQ ones but most gas places will rent them to you or even give them to you as long as you fill up through them. Once you no longer buy gas through them, they will then come and haul it away. I would shy away from small tanks not only because of code issues but convenience issues. You will be running out of gas quite often and most likely at the most inconvenient of times. If you aren't, then you are refilling partially full tanks and throwing money away.

Before I had an underground 250gal tank, I used the small bottles for mostly grilling.  The way to make sure you use it all is to just buy 2 tanks.  When one goes dry, hook up #2 and take #1 for refill. 

If I were going to try to run my stove, I might invest in slightly larger 40lb tanks.  I think a couple of those would run a stove a long, long time. 

With a 250gal tank, I fill up a little less than 2x a year.  And by "fill" I mean: The tank is at 40% and they put in enough to go to 80%.  In other words, 100gal lasts me about 8 months running stove, water heater, occasional gas grilling, and occasional central heat usage.  I bet a couple of 40gal tanks running just a stove would last a year or more.

warmastoast

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 01:06:48 PM »
Thanks for all your helpful replies.

I already have a big propane tank which is used to heat my spa/pool but it is right round the other side of the house,  about as far away from the kitchen as it possibly could be and running any kind of pipe/tubing would be tricky.

I asked about this because some relatives who lived in a forest in France used these 20lb tanks for their gas stove, kept one full and rotated when it ran low.  Each tank lasted them about 6 months.  They kept the in-use tank next to their stove with a small tube connecting the gas to the stove. 

Anyway,  I might just keep an eye on those induction stove tops....

zolotiyeruki

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2016, 11:50:27 AM »
You already have a propane tank?  Then I'd definitely go for the gas range.  I don't have any experience with induction cook tops, but I definitely prefer gas to the older-style electric stoves.  Pay a plumber to install the gas line to the kitchen, and you'll be good to go.

lthenderson

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2016, 01:28:13 PM »
Propane gas lines are a pretty easy DIY project because they don't need to be that deep. I think most I have seen are about a foot deep, more if going under a place you drive over.

I switched over last fall from electric to a gas cooktop and love using gas. The only disadvantage I have found is that it heats up the kitchen more since there is a gap (for the flame) between the burner and the pot bottom where as with electric or I suppose induction, there is no gap. However, in our four season climate, the advantages more than outweigh that.

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2016, 02:12:32 PM »
Propane gas lines are a pretty easy DIY project because they don't need to be that deep. I think most I have seen are about a foot deep, more if going under a place you drive over.


Around my area, it's 2 feet.  Or: That's what they said the code was when they installed mine in 2011.  I can't say I actually double checked the code.  I also have an underground tank.  Maybe that affects the depth of the line.

warmastoast

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2016, 02:34:25 PM »
Propane gas lines are a pretty easy DIY project because they don't need to be that deep. I think most I have seen are about a foot deep, more if going under a place you drive over.

I switched over last fall from electric to a gas cooktop and love using gas. The only disadvantage I have found is that it heats up the kitchen more since there is a gap (for the flame) between the burner and the pot bottom where as with electric or I suppose induction, there is no gap. However, in our four season climate, the advantages more than outweigh that.

Heating up the kitchen is definitely a downside of gas cooktops.   Induction ones don't get hot...
anyway, to run an underground line for the gas from the current tank would involve digging through a very nice concrete patio.

Induction cooktops are less than half the price in the EU.
Cheapest one I 've seen in the US is $999 + tax at Ikea.    Ikea in France has a range of them that start at about $260 and the most expensive one is $580 both including sales tax.   Why on earth such a price difference?  I was wondering about getting one from the EU delivered here.  Would it work?   Voltage for them is 220-240 which is that same as the current US cooktop I've got. 

dycker1978

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2016, 02:40:49 PM »
Propane gas lines are a pretty easy DIY project because they don't need to be that deep. I think most I have seen are about a foot deep, more if going under a place you drive over.

I switched over last fall from electric to a gas cooktop and love using gas. The only disadvantage I have found is that it heats up the kitchen more since there is a gap (for the flame) between the burner and the pot bottom where as with electric or I suppose induction, there is no gap. However, in our four season climate, the advantages more than outweigh that.

Heating up the kitchen is definitely a downside of gas cooktops.   Induction ones don't get hot...
anyway, to run an underground line for the gas from the current tank would involve digging through a very nice concrete patio.

Induction cooktops are less than half the price in the EU.
Cheapest one I 've seen in the US is $999 + tax at Ikea.    Ikea in France has a range of them that start at about $260 and the most expensive one is $580 both including sales tax.   Why on earth such a price difference?  I was wondering about getting one from the EU delivered here.  Would it work?   Voltage for them is 220-240 which is that same as the current US cooktop I've got.

The only thing that I can think of is that the plug might be different(shape size etc).  You can probably find an American plug and change it yourself quite cheap.

Spork

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2016, 04:20:25 PM »


Heating up the kitchen is definitely a downside of gas cooktops.   Induction ones don't get hot...
anyway, to run an underground line for the gas from the current tank would involve digging through a very nice concrete patio.


Not to beat a dead horse if you have decided on induction, but... you don't have to put the line in where the patio is.  What I normally see is a single entry in a nondescript area.  Line run up the walls, through the attic, down the walls to the appliance.    Vertical runs will have a "tail" that hangs down and collects condensation/garbage in the line.


patrat

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Re: gas stove with a small gas tank
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2016, 07:41:38 AM »
You are wasting your time and money trying to change away your electric cooktop for cost reasons. The only sound justification would be "I want gas".

Why?
Cost per BTU delivered to your cooking pot.

Propane costs in your area about $2.14/ gallon, if bought in bulk (So much cheaper than here in NJ!) http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_STX_w.htm
A gallon of propane contains 91,547 BTU. So your cost per raw 100,000 btu is $2.338

Lets assume the worst marginal electric rate for your area, $0.165 per kWh  (You are probably paying significantly less) https://austinenergy.com/
There is 3412 BTU in a kWh. Your cost per raw 100,000 btu is $4.86.

So it looks at first like of course you should go propane! But wait.
Without getting too in depth, electric burners are more efficient at putting that heat into your pan than a gas burner. A gas burner can throw more BTU at the problem, but you pay for them. Lets say the electric coil burner is 75% efficient at getting heat into your pan, and your gas burner would be about 40%. https://www.centurylife.org/is-induction-more-efficient-than-electric-coil-or-gas-an-energy-efficiency-comparison-between-stoves/

Now the cost per 100k BTU delivered to your cooking is:
Propane: $2.338/.4 = $5.845
Electric coil: $4.86/.75=$6.48

Thats a much smaller difference. Now you have to account for the payback period of your investment ($300 you said). We'll assume your time to shop and install the new unit is free. Same with your time to refill your propane, and that somehow you get it at the bulk residential price rather than the inflated cost charged for smaller portable containers. Also, you get a magical deal where the $300 is financed at zero cost, you just write a check for the energy savings difference every month until it is paid off (basically, no interest charge or opportunity cost to deal with).

The payback still does not happen until 47 million, 200 thousand BTU have been delivered to your cooking work, or about $3058 in total costs later.

The department of energy estimates that the typical user of an all electric range (stove+oven) uses 58 kWh a month of electricity for their electric range. Going back to the rates I assumed for you, the payback is then 320 months of usage, or 26 and a half years.

26.5 years to get back the $300 spent for the propane gas cooking range.

There is also the air conditioning question. Since you are  putting more energy in when using propane, despite the energy being cheaper, you will heat up your home more. Because it is a flame heating the space, you will also need to ventilate more, and the flame makes humidity. So, your air conditioner will have to work harder than with electric cooking.

I made the numbers about as generous as I could in favor of the propane. Bottom line, it almost always pays to keep using a functional and paid for appliance. My rental home has an oil fired boiler for heat, dating back to the 1950s. About as inefficient as it gets, and oil is sometimes very expensive (not this year). Here is the mid atlantic, winter can be cold enough to get expensive in an old house. Even there, the payback to switch to gas is in the 10 year range, well outside of the time I plan to live here.


As to your questions of safety and legality... you can count on it being against fire code. Propane sinks, so in a fixed structure tends to accumulate in the low spaces like crawlspaces and basements. Propane tanks outside the house (usually a set distance away, for fire reasons) are legal. Indoors? Don't count on it. Mobile homes and RVs get an easier pass on this from safety perspective, as they tend to be elevated above the ground and the propane dissipates more readily as it sinks out of the structure. Electric is hands down safer than a gas range of any sort. Gas cooking affects indoor air quality to a greater extent than electric, since it is using air to burn. You will be turning the oxygen in your indoor air into carbon dioxide, humidity, and a bit of carbon monoxide and other trace gases.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 07:48:42 AM by patrat »