Author Topic: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]  (Read 8774 times)

croco

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Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« on: August 24, 2014, 02:08:09 PM »
Hi All!

[the forum engine tells me I better start a new topic on this, so here's the link to part1: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/permits-and-inspections-for-diy ]

After reading the first thread (see above), I am still trying to make up my mind at when it makes sense to get the permit for DIY electrical/plumbing/gas work. I have a pragmatic question: if one does not get the permit and does things to code, how can he be caught? I am talking about "invisible" changes: like wiring the garage for more receptacles, lights, and also putting it on a separate breaker. If the project is large, like finishing a basement, there is no way around getting permits since at the least you will want to get it certified as living space.

It seems to me that, unless the local government maintains a detailed schematics of all wiring and plumbing, one cannot get caught once the work is done.

I've been present during a home inspection prior to buying a house. It did not look to me that the inspector had any schematics to compare to: he checked that the things worked and are to code, and that's it.

To me, this is one of the cases that MMM talked about when he said that some rules make sense and some don't. For a small enough project that one knows how to do, like wiring a few power outlets, it seems to be more hassle and money to get permits and inspections.

Unless there is a clear way to get caught in future.

What do you think?

Thanks!

Greg

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 07:36:43 PM »
I agree.  Do it right, and it doesn't really matter, for the examples you gave.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 08:30:42 PM »
Personally, if you do it to code and it's not a huge renovation, I'd be inclined to skip the permits.  There are two reasons for permits: 1) to protect people from not-to-code work, and 2) raise tax revenue.  Small-scale work, if done to code, #1 is moot, and #2 won't be affected.

On large-scale work, I'm kinda torn.  On the one hand, it's a bit dishonest to increase the value of your property without paying the commensurately increased taxes.  On the other hand, there's an element of "I paid for this with my hard-earned money, you keep your grubby gubbermint mitts off it!"  I have two relatives who each finished their basements within a year or two of each other.  One pulled permits and acted as his own general contractor.  The other did not pull permits but hired a trusted GC, who did everything properly to code.

LadyStache

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 09:46:59 PM »
Could it create a possible issue with your homeowner's insurance if something bad happens?

Nords

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 11:33:23 PM »
It seems to me that, unless the local government maintains a detailed schematics of all wiring and plumbing, one cannot get caught once the work is done.
Are you being frugal, cheap, or just plain lazy?

If you want to flaunt the system then you might get away with it.  Are you willing to risk losing the sale if you get caught?  Here's the scenarios:

1.  You want to sell your house.  Your realtor, the buyer's realtor, the home inspector, and the buyer all nod their heads and hand you a bunch of money.  Everyone lives happily ever after.  You win.

2.  You want to sell your house.  Your realtor writes up the MLS listing from your information.  They check their listing against the popular databases and realize that the details don't match-- too many bedrooms or bathrooms or a higher square footage.  Now they have a conflict of interest between pocketing their commission or persuading you to do the right thing.  Either way, how aggressively will they market your listing compared to the rest of their book? 
Or the buyer's realtor (who's familiar with the neighborhood) notices that your home is different from the models and checks the MLS listing against the city permit files.  They inform the buyer and decide to ask for a substantial discount.  Once your realtor's been notified of the discrepancy by the other realtor, the realtor's disclosures rulebook kicks in again. 
Or the home inspector offers to upsell the buyer with a permit database check.  The buyer either agrees or does it themselves.  They identify the discrepancy and not only ask for a discount but go over the rest of the house with a microscope looking for more problems.  Once again the realtors are required by their regulations to disclose the discrepancy.
The buyer applies for a mortgage.  The underwriters check the permit files against the appraisal and notice the discrepancy.  Now the buyer has to reconcile the issue, and they're probably going to want a discount.
The buyer closes and decides to remodel.  They take their plans to the permit office, and the permit staff note that the plans don't match the existing permits.  They make the buyer pay for all of the permit fees, plus penalties, and possibly and engineer's review of the calculations.  The buyer is pissed and files a lawsuit.

Does the risk seem worth the reward?

Having typed all of this, my house has several modifications that don't have permits.  In the unlikely event that we decide to sell the place then I'd ask for advice and either disclose the issues, return things to their original condition (if possible), or pay the permit fees.

croco

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 09:44:18 AM »
...Are you being frugal, cheap, or just plain lazy?
...
Nords, all,

I guess I am a bit of all three but mostly I am trying to be pragmatic. Please note that I have in mind small projects like adding electric receptacles in a garage, not adding rooms or refinishing basements. My main reason for asking is two-fold.

One reason is money, obviously: it would cost me about $100 to wire a few more power receptacles in a garage. It would probably cost me twice as much to get the permit and the inspection. Kinda wrong balance here.

The second reason may actually be more important: this is a project that I plan to do in the spare time, one wire at a time here and there, after work. If I get permits, I am bound to a schedule, and that is more difficult and takes a fair amount of fun out of it too.

Finally, one specific question remains: is there a realistic way to get caught with this minor electrical work? What Nords described above applies to major records that the county has: living area, number of bedrooms. But I wonder if any governing body keeps track of the number of breakers in my breaker box or the number of power outlets in the garage?

What do you think?

Thanks!

Greg

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 09:53:54 AM »
For electrical, there is likely no record of the system beyond amperage of service panel and the original rough-in permit, which probably doesn't get into detail of how many breakers are in the panel etc.

If you do the work carefully and to code, but also matching existing work, you should be fine.  Where the original work and the current (heh) code conflict, you have a decision.  Match existing to prevent appearances of new work, or meet current code for safety and liability reasons.

An example of how things are done in my area and code not necessarily being the same; the ground wires in my home's system are twisted and crimped together with a small metal sleeve in the boxes.  But code would allow a wire nut as well.  The way they're done is how an electrician would do them, a wire nut is more likely to be installed by a homeowner later.  Both meet code, but one looks "professional" to an inspector.  Which way is best?

croco

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 10:06:10 AM »
Thanks, Greg!

Initial rough-in is an interesting thought. I wonder if I could get a copy of that... It's only have been 25 years or so. :)

Do you know if a home owner can request copies of prior filed permits on his property?

Spork

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 10:59:31 AM »
After reading the first thread (see above), I am still trying to make up my mind at when it makes sense to get the permit for DIY electrical/plumbing/gas work. I have a pragmatic question: if one does not get the permit and does things to code, how can he be caught? I am talking about "invisible" changes: like wiring the garage for more receptacles, lights, and also putting it on a separate breaker. If the project is large, like finishing a basement, there is no way around getting permits since at the least you will want to get it certified as living space.

I've always held this opinion as well (and now I live outside of municipalities that require them).  But to answer your question: be careful how you dispose of your construction trash.  This won't matter for adding a receptacle.... but say replacing a water heater ... that has an old heater to toss.

Often the garbage men are paid a small bounty for turning in violations.  So if you're going to go with this plan, don't make a spectacle of it at the curb.

Scandium

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 09:57:04 AM »
For electrical, how about this scenario; your house burns down, killing one of your family members. The investigators discover that faulty electrical wiring you installed was the cause. You get zero insurance money and possibly a manslaughter charge.

Your plumbing job causes a leak. Again; zero insurance.

Oh right, but you'd do it perfectly so this wouldn't happen. Well have fun arguing that if the investigators find your wiring near the fire origin.

Timmmy

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 10:46:30 AM »
My city requires permits for all home repairs/improvements over $50.  Right...

I've done extensive upgrades including re-roofing house and garage, electrical, plumbing and even rebuilding an outside wall to get rid of some rotted boards with no permits.  GASP!  THE HUMANITY! 

I do everything to code so I'm not really worried.  I always figure that if I get busted I can play ignorant homeowner at least a few times. 

As to the insurance,  Homeowners get covered for stupid actions all the time.  A friend left his roof uncovered while replacing and then it rained like crazy.  All drywall in the house needed to be replaced.  Covered no problem.  Another friend turned his heat down too far when he moved out of his old house.  A pipe in the attic froze and burst flooding the whole house.  Covered no problem. 

I don't see how doing a terrible job on installing some plumbing parts and having it flood is any different. 

Nords

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 10:21:25 AM »
...Are you being frugal, cheap, or just plain lazy?
...
Nords, all,

I guess I am a bit of all three but mostly I am trying to be pragmatic. Please note that I have in mind small projects like adding electric receptacles in a garage, not adding rooms or refinishing basements. My main reason for asking is two-fold.

One reason is money, obviously: it would cost me about $100 to wire a few more power receptacles in a garage. It would probably cost me twice as much to get the permit and the inspection. Kinda wrong balance here.

The second reason may actually be more important: this is a project that I plan to do in the spare time, one wire at a time here and there, after work. If I get permits, I am bound to a schedule, and that is more difficult and takes a fair amount of fun out of it too.

Finally, one specific question remains: is there a realistic way to get caught with this minor electrical work? What Nords described above applies to major records that the county has: living area, number of bedrooms. But I wonder if any governing body keeps track of the number of breakers in my breaker box or the number of power outlets in the garage?

What do you think?

Thanks!
If by "realistic" you mean "Have I seen this happen to other people in my neighborhood when they tried to sell their homes?" then the answer would be "Yes".  This included buying the house we live in now.  We also nearly lost our last home to an attic fire caused by the homeowner's idiotic wiring of a security system by splicing directly into a wire instead of adding a receptacle.  I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, and it saved five or even ten dollars in parts. 

Doing work the wrong way is always cheaper than doing it right-- in the short term.  Permits & inspections are designed to keep you from hurting yourself, and your neighbors from losing their homes in the same fire that burns down yours.  What may seem perfectly commonsense to you may turn out to horrify an electrician who's aware of hazards that you've never even considered.

I'm not going to be the Internet Safety Police, but I've certainly seen uneducated and well-meaning homeowners jeopardize their family's safety with ignorance and the American pioneer spirit of "We don't need no stinkin' permits."  I'm not a contractor professional, either, but I've personally experienced many innovative ways in which submariners have tried to kill themselves and maybe take along a shipmate or two.

No government agency keeps track of the level of detail you've mentioned, but if you go too far (overloading the service feed to your house, incorrectly wiring the new receptacles) then you'll certainly call attention to it when the damage and failure start happening.  And if an outside agency is called in (for example, the fire department) then they're extremely familiar with the situation of DIY home improvement done badly.  During a home sale inspection, a good home inspector will plug a wiring checker into every receptacle of your house to verify that the three wires are connected correctly.  Seems pretty straightforward, but home inspectors have learned that they have to do this.

You could check the website of your local department of planning & permits to answer the question "When do I need a permit?"  You may find out that minor improvements like your projects don't need a permit.  Or you could do the work, hire an electrician at his hourly rate for an inspection, and then decide whether you care to pursue a permit to make your eventual home sale go better.  Or you could just get comfortable with knowing that you do good work and that nobody will ever find out that you didn't have a permit.  You're the guy who wants to write his own rules here, so learn all you can about your local rules in order to avoid coming to the attention of the regulatory agencies.

Your local government (city or country) may have a website where you can enter your address to look up your tax records, sale records, and permits.  Otherwise you end up going to the department of planning & permits to look it up on their network-- or to pull microfiche, which we had to do even in 2011.

Otherwise for what you're planning I'd suggest library copies of Rex Cauldwell's most excellent "Wiring A House" and "Plumbing A House", perhaps augmented by the articles & videos on FamilyHandyman.com.  Rex shares some pretty impressive sea stories of his own experiences.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7062295-wiring-a-house

Sea story:
One of my favorite projects was extending electrical service to our 12'x16' storage shed at the back of our property.  My 12-year-old daughter wanted to use electrical lights and toys in there, so we did the work together.  It included digging a 65-foot trench , adding connections to the back of our familyroom and the side of the storage shed, and installing/wiring six receptacles inside the shed.  (Her little fingers were a lot better at connecting wires to receptacles than my XXL hands.)  I showed her how it all works, and it's one of the inspirations that made her pursue a career in engineering. 

I read the books and the websites to make sure that I followed "good engineering practice" and the local codes.  I knew a lot of it already from my sea duty experience.  Did I need a permit?  Sure, but I didn't get one.  I could have sold the house that way, or I could have disconnected the splice at the back of our familyroom and let the new homeowner worry about reconnecting it. 

A few years later we demolished and rebuilt remodeled our familyroom.  (That required the permits and inspections from hell, with which we complied.)  The electrical contractor turned out to be a good guy (and a surfer) so we had a wonderful geek talk about the familyroom wiring and ways that he could improve it.  The walls were ripped out to the studs, so he rewired the room to more evenly balance the load between two breakers and give the extension to the storage shed more of its share of one circuit.  He checked my work on the familyroom splice and the storage shed extension (for a small consulting fee), offered a few tips, and declared it suitable.  But neither one of us felt that it was necessary to discuss this with the electrical inspector, who turned out to be a world-class jerk.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:37:03 AM by Nords »

DarinC

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 02:43:38 PM »
It depends on what you're doing/where you're doing it/how much experience you have.

If this is your first time wiring something, especially adding more outlets to a garage, I'd install another breaker and run a dedicated line, especially if the garage shares a branch with receptacles in other places.

You'll get a lot of experience and the inspection will cost about the same so you'll get more bang for your buck. You'll also get piece of mind knowing you did it right. The next time you need to DIY, then you'll know how to do it safely and to code.

There are other ways to get your work inspected w/o being hit with building fees. When I put in a new gas cooktop, I asked the gas company to come out and inspect it before I turned it on, which they did for free. To be honest, I'm not sure if I even needed a permit for that, but having it inspected was still a good idea.

Timmmy

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 04:22:08 PM »
I'd just like to add that "no permit" =/= "not to code" or "unsafe".  Pulling a permit, to me at least, is a huge bureaucratic time/money suck and I'd prefer to avoid it at all costs.  I won't, however, do something that is not code or unsafe. 

paddedhat

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2014, 08:11:06 AM »
For electrical, how about this scenario; your house burns down, killing one of your family members. The investigators discover that faulty electrical wiring you installed was the cause. You get zero insurance money and possibly a manslaughter charge.

Oh right, but you'd do it perfectly so this wouldn't happen. Well have fun arguing that if the investigators find your wiring near the fire origin.

Wow, talk about spiking the old drama queen meter.  As a licensed electrician for the last three decades, I have seen, repaired, and given expert witness testimony on many construction messes created by pros AND DIYers. Bottom line I that there is no shortage of clueless, and dangerous "professional electricians" and a surprising number of homeowners who can do outstanding work.

As for your claim of being denied insurance compensation, I guess it's possible, but I can assure you that it's rare, to nearly unheard of. The first assumption I would assign to the typically competent and thoughtful members here, is that they are not going to do anything stupid to cut a corner, or save a few pennies. Typically you are interacting with the kind of folks that research a topic to death, do a fine job of execution, then find a knowledgeable person to review their work. Second, an investigator at a fire scene is looking at a mess. They might be able to pinpoint the source of ignition to an outlet, but not be able to determine if it's a defective outlet, incorrect install, a defective cord end, a defective device plugged into the outlet, etc... As the inspector is working, they are also looking at the materials and installation methods of the remaining structure. If the finished basement is wired in lamp cord (yes I have seen that) and the ceiling is bed sheets stapled across the bottom of the floor joists, it is noted, and will be a part of the investigation. That said, unless the findings are that the work was grossly incompetent. illegal, and the cause of the fire, odds are that the insurance company is going to pay in full.

Finally, inspections are a complex situation in the US. They are useful for updating values and generating more tax revenue. If done by a competent professional, they can provide a base level of evaluation regarding life safety issues in a structure. (This is why, even though I despise the whole corrupt process, I believe that some form of inspection is a requirement. Proper stair design, railings, egress windows, basic electrical, plumbing, and structural standards etc.... are necessary)  Codes have quickly become a multi-billion dollar scam that has spread to most of the country since 2006.  They are used by manufacturers and industry organizations to push agendas. The fire sprinkler industry, and that giant manufacturer of extruded polystyrene are two good examples.  They generate hundred of millions in revenue for engineering firms and others who have weaseled into rural and suburban locations and taken over enforcement and code administration. But most importantly, much like the home inspectors everybody relies onto help close a real estate deal, there is no shortage of incompetent, clueless or even corrupt inspectors in this game. The fact they you passed an inspection is pretty meaningless in my opinion.

My local township was running a really well done inspection protocol until recently. They did so at cost, and had many competent people in house, and in the field. They switched to an outside contractor. permit fees tripled, and the township got a cut of the fees. So they are thrilled. They cut their staffing costs a few hundred thousand a year, and they get to keep 10% of the grossly inflated new fees. Bottom line at the moment? Two inspectors in the field. One is a middle aged woman who smart, well educated, and knows the thousand page code book inside and out. The flip side is that she has very little idea of what she is reviewing in the real world, and compensates by being a prick about meaningless paperwork that other competent inspectors ignore. The other inspector, who was fired recently, was a burned out hippy who, at my first interaction, I ignore, since I assumed he was a wandering homeless guy. I nearly laid an egg when he asked to see the prints.
This situation is far from unique. Permits, fees and licensing are the new hidden tax and means of control in our society. Before running for governor, our current POS was an attorney general. He created a scam based on the fact that he needed to "protect" the public from contractor fraud. There are ample laws on the books for this, but he was running for governor and needed the press. He then collects $5,000,000 from 80K applicants and tells the public that "for now" they have to give everybody a license since they don't have a proper procedure in operation to vet applicants. The state government then sticks the cash in the general fund and does nothing except wait until the contractors send in their next pile of cash to keep their licenses in effect.  Now, in order to come into your community to do work, I have to present my state license to the township, town and/or homeowner's association. If you think that you are on top of things you might even ask me to see it before I start work. Unfortunately, like much of the inspection regiment, it's all a fraud. I may be a great contractor who does a great job. I may be a total scammer who reopened my company in my son's name to avoid detection. You can even go to the state AG's website and look me up. You might even get warm fuzzies, since my info. is clean. Not only is my info. clean, so is everybody else's, since the whole thing is a fraud.   And the game goes on..................

Rural

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2014, 06:51:58 PM »
... And not everywhere even has permits for anything. Where I live has building permits but not electrical, and anyway there are no repercussions for not having gotten that building permit. (My husband reminds me of this frequently since I insisted we get one-- that's the only reason we get the pleasure of paying tax on our barn, though I imagine they'd eventually have noticed the house itself...probably.)


Just south of here? No permits required or available, not even for new buildings.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2014, 07:53:26 PM »
@paddedhat--it gets worse.  In our village, we're required to run electrical in metal conduit and boxes.  Talk about the UBEW writing the building code...

paddedhat

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 05:16:08 AM »
@paddedhat--it gets worse.  In our village, we're required to run electrical in metal conduit and boxes.  Talk about the UBEW writing the building code...

Yes, sadly requirements such as cast iron drain lines, copper plumbing, and steel conduit in single family residential work have been around for decades in some big cities. They have no legitimate reason other than protecting the interests of the big players, like trade unions.

I did have an interesting problem on my hands because of this. I built a new home for a young family, in a rural area about 100 miles west of NYC. One weekend I get a call from the couple and they are in a panic. They ask me to meet them at the house ASAP. When I get there they are pale. They tell me that a very concerned relative has looked at the wiring and told them that it is dangerous, and that the electrician (me) is incompetent, and risking their safety. I laughed and said, "let me guess, your uncle is a union electrician from NYC, right?" They are slack jawed as they confirm my guess. I then explain that my work far exceed any code requirements in the real world, and that the scary dangerous Romex he is protecting them from, is not only standard in tens of millions of homes, but it has been used successfully for at least eighty years. I have run into similar situations since, including a general delusion that many tradesmen suffer from if they are from they NYC/NJ region. They tend to have no problem making it quite clear that they, and their work, are quite superior to anything out in the sticks. So, far I see little to support this, but what do I know.

mpbaker22

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2014, 01:35:49 PM »
It seems to me that, unless the local government maintains a detailed schematics of all wiring and plumbing, one cannot get caught once the work is done.
Are you being frugal, cheap, or just plain lazy?

If you want to flaunt the system then you might get away with it.  Are you willing to risk losing the sale if you get caught?  Here's the scenarios:

1.  You want to sell your house.  Your realtor, the buyer's realtor, the home inspector, and the buyer all nod their heads and hand you a bunch of money.  Everyone lives happily ever after.  You win.

2.  You want to sell your house.  Your realtor writes up the MLS listing from your information.  They check their listing against the popular databases and realize that the details don't match-- too many bedrooms or bathrooms or a higher square footage.  Now they have a conflict of interest between pocketing their commission or persuading you to do the right thing.  Either way, how aggressively will they market your listing compared to the rest of their book? 
Or the buyer's realtor (who's familiar with the neighborhood) notices that your home is different from the models and checks the MLS listing against the city permit files.  They inform the buyer and decide to ask for a substantial discount.  Once your realtor's been notified of the discrepancy by the other realtor, the realtor's disclosures rulebook kicks in again. 
Or the home inspector offers to upsell the buyer with a permit database check.  The buyer either agrees or does it themselves.  They identify the discrepancy and not only ask for a discount but go over the rest of the house with a microscope looking for more problems.  Once again the realtors are required by their regulations to disclose the discrepancy.
The buyer applies for a mortgage.  The underwriters check the permit files against the appraisal and notice the discrepancy.  Now the buyer has to reconcile the issue, and they're probably going to want a discount.
The buyer closes and decides to remodel.  They take their plans to the permit office, and the permit staff note that the plans don't match the existing permits.  They make the buyer pay for all of the permit fees, plus penalties, and possibly and engineer's review of the calculations.  The buyer is pissed and files a lawsuit.

Does the risk seem worth the reward?

Having typed all of this, my house has several modifications that don't have permits.  In the unlikely event that we decide to sell the place then I'd ask for advice and either disclose the issues, return things to their original condition (if possible), or pay the permit fees.

LOL!

croco

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 10:07:15 PM »
Wow, thanks! A lot of interesting and useful info and personal experiences!

It seems to me that the community leans toward "do it right, get someone knowledgeable to look at it, permits optional".

One specific interesting idea is to hire a specialist to inspect the DIY work. Does this open the door to being reported for a possible work without a permit?

Timmmy

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 06:21:16 AM »
Wow, thanks! A lot of interesting and useful info and personal experiences!

It seems to me that the community leans toward "do it right, get someone knowledgeable to look at it, permits optional".

One specific interesting idea is to hire a specialist to inspect the DIY work. Does this open the door to being reported for a possible work without a permit?

They don't need to know if a permit is pulled or not.  Besides, from my experience, most pros are not the biggest fans of the permit/inspection process. 

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2014, 09:25:25 AM »
I spent 15 years in the construction trade.  And I can tell you like many have said before.  Good inspectors exist but far more Bad inspectors exist.  I passed an insulation inspection on a job with the insulation still in the bags.  We could have returned it and not insulated the addition saving money and work.  We did install the insulation.  I have also seen dirt bag inspectors thinking they know what they are talking about only to have me break out the code book and correct them.  My wife is convinced we could have gotten one inspector fired for trying to do a friend a favor by giving us a ticket for something that did not pertain to us.

The permit's and license fee's are simply to generate revenue for your borough, township, or whatever.  Things have gotten somewhat better with a National Code book being used.  Some jurisdictions add their own pieces to the puzzle but for the most part it doesn't stick to often.

My opinion is this, if you add a room, addition that is permanent as Nord's suggested you should get a permit.  If you are doing a small project you should be fine without one.  I have had wiring and plumbing done without permits or an inspection, but I will add that I am not a DIY guy when it comes to wiring or plumbing.  I hire competent professionals to take care of those task for me.  I know the work is being done not only to code but for safety.  Fortunately for me I know plenty of contractors that pass the muster.

Just a note a license doesn't mean the individual is qualified.  A licensed plumber cost me a ceiling in a recent project.  He Assumed no leaks existed in the lines.  The home we purchased had all the copper removed except for what wasn't reachable.  He turned the water on after he hooked everything up without pressure testing the lines.  I was nice and didn't push the cost onto him but in hindsight probably should have.  I know what it is like to run into things like this.  Fortunately the General acted quickly and saved my wood floors with inlays.

When my state required contractors to get licensed it took me 15 minutes online and I think around 40 bucks.  No test etc...  Inspectors generally have no idea what they are talking about.  Older contractors who applied for the jobs were told they had to much experience.

TomTX

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Re: Permits and Inspections for DIY [part 2]
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »
An example of how things are done in my area and code not necessarily being the same; the ground wires in my home's system are twisted and crimped together with a small metal sleeve in the boxes.  But code would allow a wire nut as well.  The way they're done is how an electrician would do them, a wire nut is more likely to be installed by a homeowner later.  Both meet code, but one looks "professional" to an inspector.  Which way is best?

Interesting.  In 3 different houses in Texas,  I have never seen anything other than wire nuts for the original professional work. Also usually found a painted over or unconnected ground wire more often than not.