New HVAC, should I get R-454B vs R-410A?

[Cozzmo]

I will soon upgrade my old leaking R22 systems of 25 years.  (And I have two units).
If I wait until 2025 I will be required to go with the newer R-454B., This will be less efficient but better for the environment.
It would be a new and untried system with all its flaws. So, I am thinking of installing a tried and true R410 system before the regulations say that I no longer can.
There must be a downside. I suppose at some point they will stop producing R410A like they did with R22. (Which you can still get, but it costs an arm and a leg).
*I wonder what the cost of both gas's R-454B and R-410A will be 10 years from now? 
*For how long will they keep making R410A?
*Will a new untested R-454B system be unreliable get it the first year of its inception? (I think 2025).
OR
*Have R-454B systems already been in use for a while and I just don't know about it?
Any thoughts whatsoever would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[GilesMM]

I will soon upgrade my old leaking R22 systems of 25 years.  (And I have two units).
If I wait until 2025 I will be required to go with the newer R-454B., This will be less efficient but better for the environment.
It would be a new and untried system with all its flaws. So, I am thinking of installing a tried and true R410 system before the regulations say that I no longer can.
There must be a downside. I suppose at some point they will stop producing R410A like they did with R22. (Which you can still get, but it costs an arm and a leg).
*I wonder what the cost of both gas's R-454B and R-410A will be 10 years from now? 
*For how long will they keep making R410A?
*Will a new untested R-454B system be unreliable get it the first year of its inception? (I think 2025).
OR
*Have R-454B systems already been in use for a while and I just don't know about it?
Any thoughts whatsoever would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

The more environmentally friendly choice is best.

[Telecaster]

There must be a downside. I suppose at some point they will stop producing R410A like they did with R22. (Which you can still get, but it costs an arm and a leg).

That's the downside in a nutshell.    One way you could look at it is that a new unit that uses R410A should last about 20-25 years.   At which point it might be more cost effective to replace the old unit that repair it anyway.   

[Cozzmo]

The more environmentally friendly choice is best.

Sure. After I get my Tesla and solar panels and then, I’ll just pay my bills using carbon credits.   :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)...

Really, I do agree with you. I do very much care about the environment. but financial reality and a real fear of re-occurring-maintenance makes me lean toward R410a.

A:  R-454B is way more expensive for now.
B: R-454B If I buy an untested system will be both more headache AND Money in the near future.
C: R410A will probably be serviceable for the next 25 years. (Just like the two 25 year old R22 systems I am replacing now).

[JLee]

The more environmentally friendly choice is best.

Sure. After I get my Tesla and solar panels and then, I’ll just pay my bills using carbon credits.   :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)...

Really, I do agree with you. I do very much care about the environment. but financial reality and a real fear of re-occurring-maintenance makes me lean toward R410a.

A:  R-454B is way more expensive for now.
B: R-454B If I buy an untested system will be both more headache AND Money in the near future.
C: R410A will probably be serviceable for the next 25 years. (Just like the two 25 year old R22 systems I am replacing now).

I was talking with an HVAC technician for a work property project last week and he mentioned that the newer refrigerants run at a much higher pressure than the older stuff, so he doesn't expect to see anywhere near the lifetime (as seals fail etc).  Does anyone know if there's validity to that?

[GilesMM]

The more environmentally friendly choice is best.

Sure. After I get my Tesla and solar panels and then, I’ll just pay my bills using carbon credits.   :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)...

Really, I do agree with you. I do very much care about the environment. but financial reality and a real fear of re-occurring-maintenance makes me lean toward R410a.

A:  R-454B is way more expensive for now.
B: R-454B If I buy an untested system will be both more headache AND Money in the near future.
C: R410A will probably be serviceable for the next 25 years. (Just like the two 25 year old R22 systems I am replacing now).

But the path of least resistance and choosing the cheapest alternatives, regardless of consequences, is how we ended up burning 100 million barrels of oil per day plus untold natural gas, coal, etc.  It's easier and cheaper than cleaner solutions.

[Cozzmo]

But the path of least resistance and choosing the cheapest alternatives, regardless of consequences, is how we ended up burning 100 million barrels of oil per day plus untold natural gas, coal, etc.  It's easier and cheaper than cleaner solutions.

As a simple man, I have not the resources nor ability to fix all that.
I think what you mean "Regardless of Consequences" is NO regard for financial consequence if money can be put towards a more costly technology geared towards incrementally saving the environment.
 
 Do you
 A: Drive an EV?
 B: Use Solar panels?  (And battery backup).
 C: Are you upgrading your HVAC system? (Geothermal is best).
 D: Green roofs, Carbon Offsets, water recycling, etc

I agree with all those things. I just cannot afford them. If you answer yes to some of those things, my hat is off to you.

I drive an efficient vehicle, save turtles crossing the road, recycle. and doubt that I will have any grandchildren to add to the global burden.
I also am upgrading two large 25 year old R-22 systems (amazingly, these still run well but, one started to leak...) to a more energy efficient system. (No matter 410 or 454, It will be a big win for the carbon offset, but will never be as sturdy as the old systems).
and that counts.

But, between those two, I am debating the math of the Headache, maintenance and total Cost.

Note: I was an early adaptor of R410 in my old house many years ago, The headache and reoccurring breakdowns lasted for years. I regret not waiting several years.
Maybe I should just keep this one limping along for a while.

[Cozzmo]

Thank you to all who have replied.
I really loved the spirited conversation.

I did finally decide to put in the new AC.
I went with the R410, (Which is the only option that is currently available).

I converted:
FROM: (Two R-22/10-Seer HVAC units) (Both 3-Ton)
TO:     (Two R-410A/Rheem 14.3-SEER, 2 stage Heat Pump units) (3-Ton and 2.5-Ton)
This investment is a MAJOR upgrade in performance Fuel economy, and greenhouse emissions.

The decision factors:
One of my systems leaked.
So, I could have again paid to have it fixed (I owned this house for 3 years and rented it the first 2 and had to have it topped off and repaired several times).
Or, by virtue just knowing the inevitable do the responsible and expensive thing right now.

Why not wait till 2025?
Know this. If you need a system and wait till 2025. You will have to buy an A2L system. (Probably R454B, but possibly R32)
But they really don't know for sure.
They don't even have such a system available on the market... and it's only 5 months away!!! (Tick Tock)
It will be a total cluster-....
Everyone will be clamoring for the few very first systems available.
Still, Probably it will a better risk than the one the astronauts took. They are stranded on the space station for being the very first NASA Starliner passengers.

So, my advice, if you are in my position, I wouldn't wait.
Get the tried, tested, true and somewhat reliable R410 units before you no longer have that option.
This R410 system will never be as reliable as my 25 year old r22 units were.
But I suspect that they are probably better than gambling on the new 'Starliner SpaceShip A2L' system when and if it becomes available.

Thanks.

[index]

The more environmentally friendly choice is best.

Sure. After I get my Tesla and solar panels and then, I’ll just pay my bills using carbon credits.   :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't resist)...

Really, I do agree with you. I do very much care about the environment. but financial reality and a real fear of re-occurring-maintenance makes me lean toward R410a.

A:  R-454B is way more expensive for now.
B: R-454B If I buy an untested system will be both more headache AND Money in the near future.
C: R410A will probably be serviceable for the next 25 years. (Just like the two 25 year old R22 systems I am replacing now).

I was talking with an HVAC technician for a work property project last week and he mentioned that the newer refrigerants run at a much higher pressure than the older stuff, so he doesn't expect to see anywhere near the lifetime (as seals fail etc).  Does anyone know if there's validity to that?

R-454B runs at a lower pressure than R410A.

[Cozzmo]

R-454B runs at a lower pressure than R410A.

Ahh, Made me look it up...
R-454B runs at a slightly HIGHER pressure than R-410A. I think some sites have it wrong as these future installers have never seen one yet and just post BS.
See This LINK
In all honesty, I don't think the pressure is a consideration as they are close (and dynamic).
I too have charged systems in a previous life, and It would probably be hard to compare them unless you had two running systems side by side with the same inside and outside temperatures.

Also, R-454B is a bit more flammable. Apparently it's nothing to worry about, but... I would still be a little concerned if I were the guinea pig.

[roomtempmayo]

I'm babysitting an AC install from my couch right now.

The unit going in is a 2 ton American Standard 15.2 SEER2 with R-410A.  Why?  Because it was recommended by the company we liked, and they could put it in right away.

The alternative seemed to be to wait until next spring when there's a big lineup for a marginally better but untested technology.

The unit going in has a 10 year warranty, so I imagine there's going to be ready availability of R-410A until at least 2034.  I'm not going to lay awake worrying about what comes in 2035.

[hooplady]

I'm sort of in the same boat. deciding whether to wait or not. One company told me that as of 1/1/25, the new refrigerants are required, and it came with dire warnings about price increases. True or just trying to get me to replace my aging unit now? Not sure. From my research the timeline is that manufacturers will not be able to MAKE any new units that take the new chemicals. So will there still be units available with the old stuff as of 1/1? I'm a bit unclear. I might want a more environmentally friendly choice anyway, even if the cost is a bit higher.