Author Topic: How to lit an efficient fire  (Read 6304 times)

Sjalabais

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How to lit an efficient fire
« on: October 14, 2015, 01:25:24 PM »
Fire place scientists* tell us: Light your fire wood from atop. This way, the escaping wood gasses will burn instantly when the wood below the fire is being warmed. It saves firewood - and thus money (or your priced time) by being fantasticly efficient.

But...when I light my fires from below, it takes 1-3 minutes for the dry wood to be all flames. I don't understand how any significant amount of gas manages to escape here.

What's your take on this? Do you light your fires from the top or the bottom?

Bajadoc

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 07:14:07 PM »
Lite from the bottom. Lighting from the top is for scientists and dumb-asses.

Syonyk

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 10:03:40 PM »
... the fuck?

Scientists: "In theory, this will work better!"

Everyone else: "In reality, your theory doesn't lead to a lit fire, and I'm cold."

trammatic

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2015, 11:01:04 AM »
I prefer the top-down method, personally.  The biggest gain is that it lasts from 3-7 hours without any need for tending.  Also, works great for campfires as well as fireplaces.

http://fourhourworkweek.com/2009/02/02/how-to-build-an-upside-down-fire/

Sjalabais

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2015, 01:20:01 PM »
That is very interesting. The only thing that comes close to seven hour fires in my world is when we're out in the wilderness and burn big trees. These will basically burn again when blown on in the morning.

Gone Fishing

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2015, 01:36:08 PM »
I think the success of the top down fire depends a lot on the air intake properties of the stove/fireplace, I have tried it both in my Vermont Casting and my dad's Jotul with little luck.  As it is I burn a lot of "gofer" wood (as in put a log in then go 'fer another) because it is what grows on my property (I have planted some black locusts, though!) so I am tending all the time anyway, doesn't really bother me much.  I just throw a big armload of oak or other hardwood in right before bed.   

HipGnosis

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 01:20:19 PM »
Not a scientist but a certified Eagle scout.

Tinder at the bottom/base.
Kindling around and over tinder.
Firewood around and over those.

Light the tinder (with ONE match)

Tinder burns.  It's heat (and not much smoke) rises and warms / drys the kindling
It's flames then ignite the kindling.
As kindling burns, it's heat (and a little smoke) rises and warms / drys the firewood...

How you start your fire has NOTHING to do with how long that fire will burn.
Fire duration is fuel source and air supply.

Gone Fishing

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 01:48:03 PM »
How you start your fire has NOTHING to do with how long that fire will burn.
Fire duration is fuel source and air supply.

The idea of the top lit fire is that you are slowing the ignition of the fuel on the bottom of the pile.

jacksonvasey

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 07:39:37 PM »
I always thought the idea of a top-lit fire was getting your tinder to light your kindling to light your fuel, without the fuel collapsing on the kindling before it's burning well.

Honestly, after about a month of regular fires in the woodstove, I just throw a couple bio bricks in and squirt with alcohol gel, hit it with a lighter and call it a day.  That's assuming I don't have any coals in the stove...just got a new stove, so we'll see how this one does.

Sjalabais

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2015, 12:20:28 AM »
This morning I was out of liting bricks, so I just held the match at the birch wood's bark for a second. Full inferno ensued and the house is warm now. I still don't get how one should be able to save anything by firing it up differently.

jacksonvasey

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2015, 07:22:29 AM »
This morning I was out of liting bricks, so I just held the match at the birch wood's bark for a second. Full inferno ensued and the house is warm now. I still don't get how one should be able to save anything by firing it up differently.

The only difference I can think of is if you pack your wood really tight (or use geometric bio bricks) you can start the fire on the left side of your firebox and extend your burn that way.  But that assumes that you're going for burn time, and not BTU output (unless your firebox is so big you get enough output from the smaller burn).

worms

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 03:27:56 PM »
So this morning, I tried the upside down fire routine as recommended above, in our old 5kW wood stove.  It lit surprisingly well, although I had to be careful with the airflow at first - opening and shutting the door to allow sufficient draft, but without so much draw that it blew itself out.  It went on to perform a long slow burn for several hours, so it clearly works if that is what you are after.  However heat output is directly related to fuel throughput and the slow burn did little for the room temperature. It did mean, though that it was easy to bring to full life in the evening when I really wanted it.

Greg

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2015, 11:24:12 AM »
While I get the desire for a long-lasting fire, any fire that isn't all coals or burning brightly is likely not burning cleanly.  I have a very small (12" wood) woodstove that heats a large space (1000 sq. ft.) and it only burns cleaning if it's really going or down to coals.  The rest of the time it's not working right, because they're designed for a good roaring (so to speak) fire.

When I see folks "burning" a smouldering smokey fire I cringe.  It's awful for air quality and their health.

Sjalabais

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 12:42:01 PM »
...and you get pipe residue, which in itself can become a fire hazard.

But the point here to begin with was that this "different" way of lighting a fire leads to cleaner, more complete and thus more efficient fires.

Syonyk

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 01:17:44 PM »
And this is why I'm interested in high thermal mass rocket stove heaters.

Instead of burning a low fire all day (usually by throttling the air), you burn an incredibly hot fire once or twice a day.  It burns clean because it has plenty of air, and you deal with the insane heat by having a lot of thermal mass for the exhaust to heat, so it radiates heat out the rest of the day.

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/latest-rocket-mass-heaters-permaculture-pundit-paul-wheaton-sustainable-heating.html or such.

Spork

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2015, 01:36:59 PM »
While I get the desire for a long-lasting fire, any fire that isn't all coals or burning brightly is likely not burning cleanly.  I have a very small (12" wood) woodstove that heats a large space (1000 sq. ft.) and it only burns cleaning if it's really going or down to coals.  The rest of the time it's not working right, because they're designed for a good roaring (so to speak) fire.

When I see folks "burning" a smouldering smokey fire I cringe.  It's awful for air quality and their health.

My wood stove experience is limited to the one stove I have... so I can't really generalize here.

Our stove is actually designed to run in a bit of a smoldery fashion.  You close the damper all the way and starve the exhaust.*  This not only burns the wood, but also the wood gas it emits.  If you look at the chimney when it's running closed, all you can see are heat waves -- zero smoke.  In other words: it takes a bright fire and runs it down as coals.

*There is a much smaller alternate exhaust exit that is actuallly at the bottom of the fire chamber instead of the top, so there is always *some* exhaust.

Left

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2015, 01:42:07 PM »
i like using the fire log/torch.... lets me just put the pot directly on top of log to cook.

instead of cutting a log, I just grab a bunch of branches and chain too and make myself a "log" and do the same. When I don't have axe/saw/log
like this, but mine isn't as pretty https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKzvWDeiFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FALfPmh0BdA one with real logs, doesn't seem to matter much

now I just put an electric heater in it and press the on switch
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 01:58:57 PM by eyem »

happy

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 02:17:54 AM »
I think its important to be clear about what ones' fire is and isn't designed to do. The concept for toplighting, I think has come from TLUDs ( Top Lit updraft gasifier stove) whereby small sticks can burn highly efficiently and very hot without evil emissions.  So the average stove  or wood heater is not be designed necessarily for this to work i.e. its not a TLUD, and whether burning from the top is a standard stove has any advantage is not clear at all. It is true that smaller fuel burns hotter and with less emissions so small fuel and a bright active burn helps.

I have an open fire, a well known brand but basically a piece of  junk  which burns with a lot of smoke, so I've experimented with top burning fires because of interest in permaculture and reading on TLUDS and biochar. I found that it really is much harder to get the thing started, but one started does burn reasonably well. What works the best, though, is a brisk fire with fairly small diameter wood i.e. up to 2-3cm in diameter. Its hotter and cleaner. The only problem is it needs frequent stoking.  Prior to industrial saws, in England most houses burnt faggots* i.e. wood up to the diameter cut from ancient coppiced trees, bundled into a faggot for transportation. The advent of cutting down large diameter trees and the splitting them into smaller logs is a relatively recent phenomenon.  This got me thinking about how silly it was to spend time cutting and splitting trees, when I have a ready source of small kindling and faggot diameter wood on my property, all I have to do is pick it up and break it up.  So now I use a minimum of logs, which I use to maintain a steady mass of heat - one on either side and burn smaller diameter sticks in the middle - bright and fast.  The big logs will keep things going if the small kindling just about goes out if I haven't stoked promptly enough.

* no rude comments please, I know what you're thinking..

GuitarStv

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2015, 07:59:55 AM »
I grew up in Northern Ontario and we used a large traditional wood burning stove for household heat for the winter.  As a kid was my job to chop the kindling and light the fire.  I've made thousands if not hundreds of thousands of fires in my life.  Lighting from the bottom works better and is easier to do.  If you want a long lasting fire, throw a big log on the damned thing after it's lit (pine, maple, oak, ash, cedar, birch, they all work well).  If you want a longer lasting fire, after 3-4 hours throw another long on the damned thing.  It's not rocket science.

Sjalabais

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2015, 01:20:51 PM »
@happy, pollarding trees was very common here in Norway, too. I live in the west of the country, with a lot of rain and relative warmth, so trees easily grow a meter or more each year. That means if we make our firewood ourselves, we also burn quite small diameter firewood. There's no doubt about that burning efficiently. But the extra attention needed doesn't make it the most attractive way to use the stove.

happy

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Re: How to lit an efficient fire
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2015, 01:27:08 PM »
Interesting Sjalabais, I didn't know that about Norway specifically, but I'd guess its knowledge used in  a number of different geographies. Frequent stoking is unfortunately the downside.