I Replaced a Window Today

[Rage]

All of my windows are 20-year old vinyls with broken seals.  I called around a year ago and got quotes from Champion, Anderson, Lowes, and Home Depot.  All of those quotes were insane.  $20K to $50K.  For comparison, I paid $282K for my house 2 years ago.

Then one day I was walking around Home Depot and I saw a window that looked nearly identical to mine (except with all the updated features - Low E glass, Argon, etc) for $108.  I bought it.  It's a "new construction" window.

The funny thing about those crazy quotes I got, they were all for "replacement" windows, which are apparently much easier to install, and kind of sloppy-seeming in my opinion.  They're basically installed into the frame of your old window, as far as I can tell.

So anyway, the process for installing a new construction window into new construction basically goes like this (according to directions that came with the window):

• Peel back the house wrap at the top
• Apply flashing around the bottom of the rough opening
• Apply a bead of caulk to the back side of nail fin
• Install window - shim sides of window, nail the fin into place, secure sides of window to studs with screws.
• Flash sides of window over fin, lay house wrap over top fin

So I expected to remove the old window and see that it had been installed using roughly this process.  Hah!

• There is no house wrap of any sort
• There was no flashing around the window rough opening
• There was no caulk sealing the nail fin to the house
• The nail fin held the window in place with 6 nails - no screws were used and no shims
• And of course no flashing or protection covering the fin

Despite this apparently sloppiness it has never leaked water and there was no sign of any water damage.  I installed my new window following roughly the new construction process.  There were a few hiccups though:

• The rough opening was 48.5" by 48.5" for a 48x48 window.  Apparently the current standard is 1/2" shorter on each side - so the standard 48x48 window I bought was 0.5 inches too small.  I just shimmed it and made it work.
• The trim was crappy fiber board that did not stand up to removal.  It's precisely 7/8" thick and I needed to match that otherwise it wouldn't match the thickness of the siding.  This was extremely difficult to match, but I found something similar at Home Depot.  This new material was so hard I could not drive a nail through it.  I wound up attaching the trim with screws
• When attaching the trim below the window (with screws), there were a number of places where the screws didn't bite into anything.  Eventually I figured out to look for where the siding below was nailed - studs, duh.
• I had to lift the window into place at least 3 times.  It weighs at least 50 pounds and is definitely what you would call "unwieldy".

In all it was a shocking amount of work - most of a weekend shot, and I still have to finish up caulking and painting.  Hopefully the next 20 or so windows will go more quickly :)

[Beardog]

Congratulations, Rage!  And thanks for sharing your storing in so much detail.  How many windows do you have to replace and how much will you save over the estimates you were given?

[FIRE me]

All of my windows are 20-year old vinyls with broken seals. 

In all it was a shocking amount of work - most of a weekend shot, and I still have to finish up caulking and painting.  Hopefully the next 20 or so windows will go more quickly :)

Well done. When you get to that 20th window, instead of the whole weekend you'll probably have it down to a couple of hours per window.

And it looks like you could do your whole house for under $3,000? (20 X $108 plus other materials plus maybe a few large windows). If so, that is one fine cost saving DIY.

[Rage]

It's hard to make a fair comparison on savings since the Anderson windows, for example, would be quite a bit nicer - for example I'll probably install single-hung vertical windows (today's was a slider) - but Anderson only does double hung.  The window I installed is pretty much the lowest quality builder's grade window you can get - just like what was originally installed.

On the other hand, I fixed a few issues that I think would have been left untouched in a replacement window scenario.

Anyway, I view it as about $20K in savings + knowing it's done right (assuming I can do it right).  I'll keep track of specific costs (caulk, nails, screws, insulation, windows) and total it up when I'm done.

[paddedhat]

Congratulations on successfully avoiding the window replacement industry. There are many good, local and honest outfits out there that will do the work well, and for a fair price. However, they are overshadowed by the high pressure clowns that rule the game. I have seen them screw the elderly and unaware I my area, to the point that they were paid 10X the cost of the products they installed, and the victim ends up with an unaffordable second mortgage on windows they didn't need, and can't afford.

Now to the details. As a retired small builder, I have installed a few hundred of these. First, you have a solid game plan so far. Be aware that ALL vinyl windows are custom built, so getting the exact dimensional fit you need should not be an issue at all, if you find that stock sizes vary too much to fit your tolerance. Having custom sizes made in vinyl windows is generally pretty reasonable. When it comes to installation, I would do a few things slightly different.  Caulk is good, quality is an issue. A lot of cheap, latex based stuff will dry out and fail in a few years ,and standard silicone doesn't stick to vinyl at all. The most commonly available product that will perform well is GE Silicone II, which will be labeled as usable on vinyl. Next it's fasteners. 1-1/2" roofing nails are the preferred fastener over screws. The reason is that screw heads protrude and will not allow the trim to sit flat. I nail every other slot on the flange, which gives you at least 20+ fasteners per window. The proper technique for the install is to have a helper inside the opening, with a pile of shims, and a flat pry bar (wonderbar). The helper removes the screen, opens the glass fully,then passes the window out the hole. At this point the helper is totally responsible for holding the unit until you have at least one nail on each side flange, half way up the flange. The helper keeps the unit secured by keeping a firm grip on the sash, in the center of the window, and keeps inward pressure on it, so the flange is tight to the sheathing. The helper centers the window by looking at the right and left gaps between the window and framing, just above the sill. They adjust this by using the flat bar to slide the unit back and forth. Now you level the sill. This is done by you checking the exterior lip of the sill with a level. Your helper uses the bar to lift one side of the window and shimming under the corner of the window. Now nail the bottom flange at each corner. Repeat this process on one side jamb, but your helper just needs to adjust the unit to plumb with the flat bar, no shims are needed. nail the side jamb at the mid-point, then the top. If you are installing a single hung, you are now locked into position because the fixed upper glass maintains the rigidity of the frame.  Nail the opposite flange at the mid point, and your helper is done. Now finish up by nailing the remaining holes.  If you are doing sliders or double hungs it's critical to use a level to keep all sides of the frame level, plumb and straight. Finally, use a flange tape to weather seal the flange. The best stuff I found is 4" " Zip System"  tape by Huber. It's a thin black rubber tape that sticks better than anything I ever used. This stuff needs to be installed in proper order. The bottom flange gets covered first, then the sides, then the top. Overlaps are then correct, and each piece "shingle laps" over then one below.

My only concern with what you did so far, is why you lacked a nailing surface at the sill of your first window? There is a rough sill of 1-1/2" framing lumber, laying flat in the rough opening of 99.99% of all window openings. If you nailed below this, you may need to shim the window a bit more to raise it up so that the nail slots are hitting the flange. Either this product has oddly large flanges, or maybe it's actually a bit too small for the application? This is an issue I have never encountered before? Good luck, you're doing great so far.

[Rage]

Thanks for all the tips.  I'll definitely try that caulk - I was unsure what to buy so I just bought the most expensive exterior caulk.

The nail fin did go into wood on all sides, and that worked *mostly* fine.  I say mostly because I added a 1/4" strip of wood on all sides of the rough opening.  I screwed these in using several stainless steal "washer head" screws that I had bought for screwing the window itself to the rough opening.  When installed, the nail holes on the nail fin would only be into 2x4 framing lumber by about 1/4" and I was concerned about basically splitting this wood, so my hope was that screwing in this additional 1/4" shim would be enough to hold the nail tight.  But even if it does not, the windows are secured in many other ways, including screws through the side and the trim layered over the nail fin.

It was the "brickmolding" trim at the bottom of the window where there were limited places I could attach it. 

From what I've read, a typical house these days is 2x4 construction with a layer of OSB on top of it, house wrap on top of that, and then siding.  My house is 2x4 construction, a 1/2" layer of stiff foam board insulation, and then siding on top of that.  So you can't just drive a nail or screw in anywhere on the outside of the house - you have to find a stud.  It seems flimsy to me, but it's how they constructed houses here 20 years ago.

For future windows I will custom order windows to match the size of the old window.

[paddedhat]

If you find it's economical to continue to use stock sizes for replacement, it wouldn't be a big deal to take a 1/4" drill bit and make new holes in the nailing flange to get the fasteners a bit further out into good solid framing. As for using 1/4" wood to resize the opening, I wouldn't, as IMHO, it's more of a PITA than it's worth. Not sure about what you mean by "screws in the sides" of the window, since this is how replacement windows are done, and I have never seen it done to a new construction (flange mounted) unit?

[Rage]

I agree that adding 1/4" wood to resize the opening was a PITA - I don't plan to do it again.  As for screwing the window into the side of the frame - it's what the instructions said to do.  It did indeed seem pretty redundant...

[Mrs. PoP]

Well done!  We just replaced two windows with new ones a couple of weekends ago.  Well, one we actually had to frame out a whole new opening because we doubled the size of the window there.  It was amazing when we got down to the windows how few nails were actually holding the old aluminum windows in place.  Just one or two nails through the small aluminum fin into the window frame.  Other than that, they were just held in place by the siding and the trim, without caulk or anything.  Mid-80s construction was the best!  =P 

OP - Andersen *does* make single hung windows, since that's what we used.  The sub-brand was American Craftsman by Andersen that we ordered through Home Depot, and we got Series 50 (works for 2x4 framed houses) new construction windows (nice big fins!).  The Series 50 ones are single hung.  Series 70 are double hung from what the catalog said, but we didn't order those.  So far we're very pleased with them.

Paddlehat - glad to hear that we chose well, going with GE Silicon II caulk.  But why are you against screws?  Here in Hurricane-land, screws (with flat heads) in EVERY hole in the fin is the preferred method for installing windows according to our code enforcement guys.  They were glad we went with screws (#8 1 1/2" wood screws) in every hole over nails in every other hole when they checked our work.  I don't know if they would have failed us if we had gone with nails, but the inspector was very pleased with our decision to use screws the way we did. 


Also, as for screwing into the side and the fins, those were the instructions for all the impact windows we looked at - extra redundancy for strength in windstorms. 

[paddedhat]

Naturally, There is little to object to when they are required to meet hurricane codes, in fact I was on a volunteer job recently in South Florida where the flanges had to be screwed and the windows were aluminum, since vinyl units were not strong enough to meet the local requirements.  That said, I would always use roofing nails where allowable. First, it's way faster, cheaper and easier. Second, screws often leave noticeable high points for wood, or composite trim stock to wobble on top of, when you are trying to do a decent job of trimming a window, which obviously isn't an issue with roofers. Finally, for the vast majority of applications, screws are serious overkill. As you and the OP noted, your windows worked fine for decades with barely a handful of nails in them. Now take the time to caulk the flanges and put 20-30 roofers in, and at least 3/4" deep into the framing, and the window isn't going anywhere. I would venture to say that a vinyl unit, with two dozen 1-1/2" roofing nails evenly spaced in the flange, will typically be turned to a bits of blowing debris, in an extreme wind event, long before the flanges pull the nails out.

[kendallf]

I have 3 new windows sitting in the front of my in-work house; I'll be doing this in a couple of weeks.  One of them is 108" long (3 windows with mull strips, preassembled).  I think I'm going to have to get help for that one..

[paddedhat]

I have 3 new windows sitting in the front of my in-work house; I'll be doing this in a couple of weeks.  One of them is 108" long (3 windows with mull strips, preassembled).  I think I'm going to have to get help for that one..

Yea, that big can be a PITA. Just to avoid a problem later, take a framing square and a tape measure, and make sure that the units were assembled reasonably square. For some reason, I have encountered far too many of these that were assembled poorly, and essentially non-functional, once installed. Check the individual frames with a square, and cross tape the corners to see if it was built square. It's not likely to be defective, but it's nice to know BEFORE you wrestle it into place and caulk and nail it in. Don't forget to let your helpers know that they CAN'T let go of the window until you say so. I've done walls and windows on volunteer jobs where the well meaning, but inexperienced, help thinks that things magically say in place once they are stood up, LOL   Good luck.

[kendallf]

I have 3 new windows sitting in the front of my in-work house; I'll be doing this in a couple of weeks.  One of them is 108" long (3 windows with mull strips, preassembled).  I think I'm going to have to get help for that one..

Yea, that big can be a PITA. Just to avoid a problem later, take a framing square and a tape measure, and make sure that the units were assembled reasonably square. For some reason, I have encountered far too many of these that were assembled poorly, and essentially non-functional, once installed. Check the individual frames with a square, and cross tape the corners to see if it was built square. It's not likely to be defective, but it's nice to know BEFORE you wrestle it into place and caulk and nail it in. Don't forget to let your helpers know that they CAN'T let go of the window until you say so. I've done walls and windows on volunteer jobs where the well meaning, but inexperienced, help thinks that things magically say in place once they are stood up, LOL   Good luck.

I didn't see this until today.  Hope I'm not derailing the OP too badly, but I wanted to say thanks, paddedhat.  I still haven't put them in yet but I did have to correct one crooked mull strip.  I'm almost done painting the exterior and replacing gable end sheathing; next come the windows!

[monarda]

I just saw this thread and am inspired. Different situation than the OP, I'd like to derail a bit, too, while we're on the subject.

We have a 1914 rental house that needs new windows. If we install ourselves, we could afford nicer (wood? fiberglass?) windows.  They are all the original double hung with the big iron weights. The sashes aren't worth repairing and reglazing (though we will probably do that for some to buy us some time)

I've watched some YouTube and had a question. Not seeing insulation addressed very well in the videos so far.  After the stops and weights and pulleys being removed, I'm thinking I should then fill the whole weight cavity with insulation. Should I use spray foam? Cellulose? Fiberglass? I think any of these three would perhaps be a hassle, but for different reasons.
 
Any tips for me paddedhat or anyone?

[paddedhat]

If you decide to replace them, I would fill the weight boxes with minimally expansive foam. This is on the shelf, next to the normal spray foam, but it's made for use in gaps at doors and windows, since it will not expand enough to put pressure on the jambs and cause issues.
That said, I would really give some thought to rebuilding the sashes and installing high quality storm windows. My parents lived in a beautiful brick place built in 1915. Mom complained about the old double-hungs forever. I finally convinced her to go with some minor repairs to the nearly 100 YO, fully functional windows, and new, custom made, custom color, exterior triple track storm windows. The job came out great. The ascetics and integrity of the original house are preserved, and the cost was about 1/3rd of replacing all the windows.
As a competent DIYer, and stachian, you have many options that you can tackle yourself in this case. Custom sized vinyl replacement windows, installed as a DIY project, are surprisingly easy when used in old double hung applications. You basically remove the old sashes, slide a complete new window in the opening, and secure it. Very functional, inexpensive, and energy efficient. The down side, IMHO, is that they aren't the prettiest things to look at. Good luck

[monarda]

Thanks, paddedhat!

Something to price out and think about! Many of the current sashes are pretty bad:  L-brackets holding together numerous corners, lots of silicone goo all over from a well-meaning someone who (before we bought the house) decided that's how glazing was repaired (ugh). Plus, being a rental, I'm not sure we'd want to leave tenants without sashes for the time it takes to rebuild. Would certainly consider more seriously if this were our primary residence. But the income on this rental (and the current tenants) are too good.

Whatever we do will have to be quick. It's a 2-unit, each apartment has 8-10 large windows. But there's no reason to repair/replace all of them at the same time.

With the minimally expanding foam, how do you make sure you haven't missed spots in the cavities? Do you suggest drilling lots of access holes in the frame that will be covered up by the new window jambs? Or remove and replace the interior vertical trim pieces for full access? Or should we not worry, it will expand "enough"? :-)

[paddedhat]

Use a long piece of vinyl tubing as the spray wand on the can of foam, instead of the straw they give you. Drop it into the cavity until you hear it hit bottom, spray as you retract the tube.

For replacement windows I would order them from Home Depot. They are made by one of the largest suppliers in the country, and they are a half decent product for the money. Once you get the hang of it, they go in fast and easy. No problem to do an entire apartment in a day. Good luck.

[Rage]

So I'm replacing the second window now and when I took the old one out I learned something surprising:

They had put a 48"x48" window (actual dimensions) into a 48" x 49" rough opening. 

Thermal expansion?  Never happens on the horizontal axis, apparently.

Something else I've learned is that custom window sizes cost 50% to 75% more at Home Depot than off-the-shelf windows.  So the 48"x48" window I bought was ~$200.  The 47.5"x47.5" on the shelf currently costs $138. 

Another thing I learned is that Home Depot treats your custom ordered windows like shit - or maybe it's Jeld-wen's fault, I don't know.  They didn't protect the windows at all!  No cardboard, no plastic wrap, just windows, here you go.  So when I go to pick them up, they're dirty, sticky (?!), and scratched up, and all of the screens were damaged.  I had rented a van to pick up these fucking things, so I wasn't sure what to do, refuse them?  I didn't notice the messed up screens until I got home.

Current plan is to buy an-off the shelf 47.5x47.5 (if I can figure out how to get it home), and I'll use the 48x48 window I have elsewhere.

[Greg]

Take the screens back and make them replace them.  That's just sucky.  It's all of their faults, they window should have been packed for shipping.

[paddedhat]

Take the screens back and make them replace them.  That's just sucky.  It's all of their faults, they window should have been packed for shipping.

X2  That isn't acceptable in the least. I have put countless JELD-WEN units in, and they typically come from the factory with triangular corner boxes of reinforced cardboard and a serious amount of shrink wrap around the whole unit.

[Rage]

Through a cosmic coincidence paddedhat happened to be nearby (2 miles away!) and he came by and helped with a window (by which I mean he mostly did it for me).  I learned a ton, thanks man!  I'm very grateful for your willingness to share your knowledge here in the forum and in real life.

I had just removed a window that was precisely 36"x60" (WxH).  It turns out that the rough opening was 36" wide at the bottom and 36.25" wide at the top  The height was something like 62" - they had actually shimmed down from the header to put in drywall for the interior "trim"

My replacement window, specified as 36"x60" was actually precisely 36 1/16" wide.  I tried to fit it into the rough opening with no luck.

Paddedhat showed up around then and we fixed the side of the rough opening which was not plumb by shaving ~1/4" off of the jack stud.  You can't make an omelet without with breaking a few legs, as they say.  This is only a 36" opening, and there are king studs on either side, obviously - though it is a load bearing wall.  I suspect that the out-of-plumbness was not from settling (there's a horizontal stud under the window frame - the sill stud? bracing the jack studs apart and this stud was not bent or warped), but from framing sloppiness.

Overall I'm faced with a difficult problem in ordering replacement windows since I can't count on a 1/2" gap beyond the size of the windows - but I certainly want such a gap when I install new windows to allow for thermal expansion, settling, etc.  The easiest and best way to measure the rough opening is to remove the trim and the old window - but it takes 3 weeks for custom windows to arrive, so I'd have to put it all right back and it wouldn't be very water tight for those 3 weeks.  On one window that I'm going to replace I cut into the drywall "trim" to see what the gap was from the window to the rough opening - but it took me a long time to do this and made a mess and I'll have to patch it somehow.  One final idea I've come up with is to drill a big hole through the side of the jam and have a peek.  I just need to know what the gap is between the outside of the frame and the rough opening.