Author Topic: Ice dam problem  (Read 8541 times)

fields

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Ice dam problem
« on: February 03, 2015, 06:21:52 PM »
I have an ice dam leaking inside the house. There is a window on the second floorthat is about five feet across from and three feet below the dam. If I could find a way to spray warm water on the dam, I could melt it and solve the problem.
But how can I do that?  Would a sprayer (the kind use to spray a garden with insecticide) full of hot water work?  Would it have enough pressure to reach the dam?  Any other ideas?



Greg

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 07:13:20 PM »
I've never done this of course, but could you connect a hose to your hot water heater and use it with a garden sprayer to reach it?  Any way to put a heat lamp under the dam?

fields

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 07:36:07 PM »
Hot water heater is in basement, ice dam is above second floor, so I don't think that would work. Heat lamp may be a good idea.  Not sure how long that would take, though--ice is about 18 inches thick.

Wile E. Coyote

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 08:27:01 PM »
I've heard that if you fill a leg of pantyhose with ice melt and throw it up over the ice dam, it will melt and create a path for the water to run off the roof. Never tried it, but adding more water seems like a risky proposition.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 07:45:12 PM by Wile E. Coyote »

hdatontodo

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 08:35:11 PM »
I had an ice dam and ran a garden hose to the laundry tub hot water faucet. I climbed up the ladder and went to town.

The next summer, I installed some heater cables. I plug in an extention cord when it is needed.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 10:03:38 AM »
Source of ice dam = too little attic insulation right?

For next winter I would add some attic insulation, which will keep snow on the roof, which will prevent ice dams. You can usually get your local government or utility company to pay for at least some of the insulation, and it will lower your gas bill and pay for itself.

Riff

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 10:44:06 AM »
Source of ice dam = too little attic insulation right?
It is more about airflow.  You want your attic to be the same temperature as outside, so if the soffit vents are covered up or there's no ridge vent, you've got a problem.

The heat in your attic rises, melts the snow near the peak.  The water runs down the roof until it refreezes near the edge, over and over until, viola, you have an ice dam. 

More insulation will help maybe, but not without addressing the airflow issue.

Glenstache

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 11:23:26 AM »

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 02:05:11 PM »
Ya I think it can be a combo of the two. too much heat getting into attic, or not enough venting to get hot air out of attic.

Either way, I think that should be fixed. Ice dam melters or spraying them down seem not a good long term solution.

fields

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 05:02:05 PM »
Thank you everyone. I ended up running a hose from the bathroom sink and spraying hot water on the dam from the window. This worked well for breaking up the dam, but I'm a little concerned about the water and icicles adding weight to the already deep snow-covered roof below.

I can't get into the part of the attic where the dam forms. I may try putting heat cables up for next year.

szmaine

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2015, 06:01:53 PM »
Retro-fit insulation is the answer!! A good insulator ( you or a company) will seal the air leaks with foam before applying new or extra insulation. Had it done on my house this past fall..poof no more massive ice dam with leaks. Before that nothing worked to get rid of it except putting up a ladder and smashing out drain channels.
Glad the hot water worked but this will be a never ending misery, this is something you really want to spend money on now instead of later.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2015, 04:07:00 PM »

I can't get into the part of the attic where the dam forms. I may try putting heat cables up for next year.

That really is not a good solution though. You may win this battle, but you will lose the war. Your shingles in general will not last as long with an improper attic, and your energy bill is too high (plus not burning even MORE money to heat the cables).


Glenstache

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2015, 05:36:42 PM »
When the ice dam eventually results in a leak bad enough to require drywall replacement inside the house, it will be much easier to access and install insulation in those hard to get to places.

I  don't know how the framing and what-not is configured in that part of the structure, but just sucking it up and doing it right will make you happier in the long run and prevent much less palatable repairs. If it is really hard to get in to that space, would the location and geometry of the void space lend itself to drilling a few 1/2 inch holes and squirting expanding spray foam insulation into the appropriate void spaces?

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2015, 07:00:52 PM »
Retro-fit insulation is the answer!! A good insulator ( you or a company) will seal the air leaks with foam before applying new or extra insulation. Had it done on my house this past fall..poof no more massive ice dam with leaks. Before that nothing worked to get rid of it except putting up a ladder and smashing out drain channels.
Glad the hot water worked but this will be a never ending misery, this is something you really want to spend money on now instead of later.
Well, more insulation and and sealing is PART of the answer, but air flow under the sheathing surface is critical also. I built new homes for thirty years, and did roofs that varied from r-19 to r-70 using fiberglass batts, blown glass, and blown cellulose. In all those homes I have never had an ice damming issue, and I often heard from my customers, reporting that similar homes in their neighborhood were suffering from huge issues. The difference? I always did 100% fully vented soffits, full baffle trays in each rafter bay, and 100% continuous ridge venting. For decades before strict code enforcement came to the area, I knew other builders who would only install baffles every third bay, install soffit vents every four feet, or so, or do other things that resulted in less that optional ventilation. These are the guys that had problems when the weather got real nasty. No matter how poorly insulated a roof is, if the underside of the sheathing is properly vented, you will not have ice damming issues.  It's simple, cold sheathing and shingles do not melt snow. No melt, no dam.

This is not discounting the incredible value of high levels of insulation, or air sealing of ceiling penetrations, but it is possible to improperly install additional insulation (typically by over-stuffing batts into the area over the outside walls, where they meet the underside of the roof) and CREATE ice dams, where there were none previously.

fields

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2015, 07:08:18 PM »
I'm having a new roof put on in the spring. Is there anything theycan/should do to prevent future ice dams?

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 07:27:15 PM »
I'm having a new roof put on in the spring. Is there anything theycan/should do to prevent future ice dams?
Yep, have the roofer install ice and water barrier from the drip edge, up to an imaginary plumb line, two feet inside the interior surface of the wall. Typically this requires running two 36" rows of the stuff. This product is self sticking, self sealing rubber that does absolutely nothing to PREVENT ice dams, but it does seal the water out, and prevents it from leaking into the structure. It's also not too terribly expensive.

fields

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2015, 08:06:41 PM »
Thank you!

Greg

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 12:56:24 PM »
I'm having a new roof put on in the spring. Is there anything theycan/should do to prevent future ice dams?
Yep, have the roofer install ice and water barrier from the drip edge, up to an imaginary plumb line, two feet inside the interior surface of the wall. Typically this requires running two 36" rows of the stuff. This product is self sticking, self sealing rubber that does absolutely nothing to PREVENT ice dams, but it does seal the water out, and prevents it from leaking into the structure. It's also not too terribly expensive.

And is often required in regions where ice-damming is a known issue.

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 07:28:05 PM »

And is often required in regions where ice-damming is a known issue.

[/quote] Which endlessly pisses me off. One new construction, ice damming is an issue caused by an incompetently designed, and constructed roof system. Properly done, a structure will never have an ice dam, even if every other house in the 'hood is sporting giant icicles, and the owner has pots and pans all over the inside, catching the drips. The code then requires the unnecessary expense of ice shield to provide a band-aid for those builders that are too stupid to do it right, and the rest of us end up being penalized. I recently skipped it on my own new house, while the roofers howled about all the horrors heading my way. I just laughed and asked if they had a clue as to why ice dams form? Not only did I detail everything properly with regard to insulation and ventilation, I spray foamed hundreds of feet of potential air leaks in the "Lid" or back side of the ceiling sheetrock.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2015, 11:18:36 AM »
Which endlessly pisses me off. One new construction, ice damming is an issue caused by an incompetently designed, and constructed roof system. Properly done, a structure will never have an ice dam, even if every other house in the 'hood is sporting giant icicles, and the owner has pots and pans all over the inside, catching the drips. The code then requires the unnecessary expense of ice shield to provide a band-aid for those builders that are too stupid to do it right, and the rest of us end up being penalized. I recently skipped it on my own new house, while the roofers howled about all the horrors heading my way. I just laughed and asked if they had a clue as to why ice dams form? Not only did I detail everything properly with regard to insulation and ventilation, I spray foamed hundreds of feet of potential air leaks in the "Lid" or back side of the ceiling sheetrock.

Codes aren't there because of people who do things right. Its to set a minimum baseline so the next person to buy a house doesn't inherit a huge problem or die in a fire because the previous owner knew more than the codes. How much extra $$ is it really to install the ice dam protection? Not a big deal.

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 03:20:17 PM »
Which endlessly pisses me off. One new construction, ice damming is an issue caused by an incompetently designed, and constructed roof system. Properly done, a structure will never have an ice dam, even if every other house in the 'hood is sporting giant icicles, and the owner has pots and pans all over the inside, catching the drips. The code then requires the unnecessary expense of ice shield to provide a band-aid for those builders that are too stupid to do it right, and the rest of us end up being penalized. I recently skipped it on my own new house, while the roofers howled about all the horrors heading my way. I just laughed and asked if they had a clue as to why ice dams form? Not only did I detail everything properly with regard to insulation and ventilation, I spray foamed hundreds of feet of potential air leaks in the "Lid" or back side of the ceiling sheetrock.

Codes aren't there because of people who do things right. Its to set a minimum baseline so the next person to buy a house doesn't inherit a huge problem or die in a fire because the previous owner knew more than the codes. How much extra $$ is it really to install the ice dam protection? Not a big deal.

 In my case, as a small builder, it was a few thousand per year in needless waste, on that non-issue alone.  Your though process on this issue is part of the problem. All the "no big deals" add up quickly, and make homes needlessly unaffordable. My market area went from no significant code enforcement, to full IRC requirements, in 2006. At that point, the average new home builder saw a cost increase of $8-10K per unit. Since then the additional changes, and exponentially increasing costs of permits and inspections bumped that up by another $5-6K.

 You want to show me how these homes are safer, more durable, or more valuable since all the BS started, and a modest new home costs $15K more to build?   Chances are that the average homeowner wouldn't have a clue how to answer that. The real answer is that there are a few, fairly low cost structural,  and mechanical changes that add a bit to safety, a few hundred bucks in value at best.

 The rest of it is nothing but games.  Material manufacturers, trade organizations and bureaucrats piling on the BS. Everybody with skin in the game looks at THEIR product, or idea, as no big deal.  The problem is that all this stuff costs money, and it all adds up. A competent inspector can easily tell if a roof system is properly detailed and is unlikely to suffer from ice damming. Spending hundreds of dollars per house to insure that a new house (with a defective roof) won't let water penetrate into the structure is only necessary when the builder and inspector fail to do their jobs. When it comes to WHY these products are mandatory, all you need to do is follow the money trail.


This BTW, is a bit snarky, and misguided statement...... die in a fire because the previous owner knew more than the codes.

I have discussed fire investigations with inspectors and firemen on numerous occasions, and have yet to hear a professional ever express such a thought.  I go way above and beyond in situations where the codes are requiring a bear minimum level of acceptable performance from structural to mechanical items, but I have no issue with working with a competent inspector who knows that some of it is pure BS and can be overlooked, since it's just another wallet draining fraud. This BTW, extend to the state level in my state, where they, like the majority, no longer just rubber stamp the latest editions of the IRC, but remove the really fraudulent parts, like fire sprinklers in single family homes, and then approve a modified version.

Finally, I have been saying it here for years. This.......... Its to set a minimum baseline so the next person to buy a house doesn't inherit a huge problem is a fantasy that can bite you in the ass. There is no reason to believe that a home build in a strict code enforcement area is going to be free of huge issues. I have seen absolute crap that has been inspected and approved from the day the hole was dug until final inspection.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2015, 10:41:15 AM »
In my case, as a small builder, it was a few thousand per year in needless waste, on that non-issue alone.  Your though process on this issue is part of the problem. All the "no big deals" add up quickly, and make homes needlessly unaffordable. My market area went from no significant code enforcement, to full IRC requirements, in 2006. At that point, the average new home builder saw a cost increase of $8-10K per unit. Since then the additional changes, and exponentially increasing costs of permits and inspections bumped that up by another $5-6K.

Sorry, 5-6k is no big deal. My last 2 homes have cost me ~320k and ~220k respectively. So 2-3% of a cost increase to ensure the next buyer won't get screwed by shady builders half assing things. SOLD

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Finally, I have been saying it here for years. This.......... Its to set a minimum baseline so the next person to buy a house doesn't inherit a huge problem is a fantasy that can bite you in the ass. There is no reason to believe that a home build in a strict code enforcement area is going to be free of huge issues. I have seen absolute crap that has been inspected and approved from the day the hole was dug until final inspection.

Of course not. Nothing is a guarantee. It sure helps the odds. Take a city A with code X (say, Ice Dam barriers). Take a city B without code X. Want to bet how many ice dam problems are in city A vs city B?  You clearly can't see it in your tiny world, as you are building (cheap sounding) houses and dumping them as fast as you can. People in 20 years are the people who will care what corners got cut.

BlueMR2

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2015, 03:48:03 PM »
It's simple, cold sheathing and shingles do not melt snow.

That's not true.  I run into the melt/ice issue in February when there's lighter/spotty coatings of snow at the beginning of the day.  'Cause, guess what, we have longer days/more direct Sun.  In December no issue (even up close to freezing), but February it can be low 20's (F) and the shingles collect enough solar heat to cause the melt on surrounding areas during the day, which then freezes overnight...

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2015, 06:37:02 PM »
In my case, as a small builder, it was a few thousand per year in needless waste, on that non-issue alone.  Your though process on this issue is part of the problem. All the "no big deals" add up quickly, and make homes needlessly unaffordable. My market area went from no significant code enforcement, to full IRC requirements, in 2006. At that point, the average new home builder saw a cost increase of $8-10K per unit. Since then the additional changes, and exponentially increasing costs of permits and inspections bumped that up by another $5-6K.

Sorry, 5-6k is no big deal. My last 2 homes have cost me ~320k and ~220k respectively. So 2-3% of a cost increase to ensure the next buyer won't get screwed by shady builders half assing things. SOLD


First, in my market, retail for new construction is in the mid-$90s a foot, so your 2-3% calculation is way off.  If you took the time to read what I wrote, the burden caused by all the needless code BS is now in the $15K range for a modest house, so it can, and often does represent well over ten percent of the cost of a new home, here. YOU may be able to afford a  third of a million for a home, but the vast majority of folks can't. In my area, family income runs in the $48K per year range, and affordability means paying no more than half of what you spent. These are the people being priced out of the new home market in rural N.A. and a lot of it is specifically due to excessive codes, and other bureaucratic burdens.  Regardless of your delusions on the issue, none of this needless cost assures you, or anybody, that you won't get screwed by a shady builder. I just spoke to an inspector that was furious that he HAD to pass a rough framing inspection. The inspector had been a well regarded framer in the past, and in his opinion it was the worst framing he ever encountered, but oddly enough, everything was done in a manner that just barely cleared the bottom level of being acceptable. The place was so F'ed up that a single story exterior wall was 2" out of plumb. The framer was an experienced scumbag, who know how little he had to do to get the job passed. The inspector actually called the IRC national office for clarification, and was told that any standard height wall can be out of plumb by one half the thickness of the plate stock, and be acceptable. So an eight foot tall, 2x6 wall that is two inches out of plumb, is still within the 2-3/4" margin. This level of workmanship is quite common on tract projects and townhouse projects in our area, BTW. This kind of crap permeates the whole system, and there are thousands of builders out there building absolute shit, with all the required inspections and approvals. I know that you have determined that I am a scumbag, since I don't go along with all the BS involved with being a well behaved drone, but you might want to talk to a local inspector, or construction litigator and discuss your misguided belief that you end up with a superior product because it has been permitted and inspected. I could literally write a book on all the shit I have seen, heard from dedicated inspectors, or been shown at seminars and code classes.

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Finally, I have been saying it here for years. This.......... Its to set a minimum baseline so the next person to buy a house doesn't inherit a huge problem is a fantasy that can bite you in the ass. There is no reason to believe that a home build in a strict code enforcement area is going to be free of huge issues. I have seen absolute crap that has been inspected and approved from the day the hole was dug until final inspection.

Of course not. Nothing is a guarantee. It sure helps the odds. Take a city A with code X (say, Ice Dam barriers). Take a city B without code X. Want to bet how many ice dam problems are in city A vs city B?  You clearly can't see it in your tiny world, as you are building (cheap sounding) houses and dumping them as fast as you can. People in 20 years are the people who will care what corners got cut.

Don't know how you could even begin to judge the quality of my work, or why the childish insults are necessary, and I really couldn't care. I specialized in building small custom homes that were far above the completion, and did so with a group of subs that knew that their work had to be top notch, as in "do it nice, or do it twice" In return for this, I respect them, paid them fairly, and instantly, and went out of my way to treat them right, including keeping schedules tight, and jobsites spotless. The majority of my work was in new spec. homes, and  totally self funded. I also did all of my own mechanical work and have heard things like, "it's been twenty years since I have seen work done this nice", or I never saw anybody rough in a house this neatly" repeatedly from inspectors and other builders. I have even had a competitor tell me that I was a fool for being so concerned with how well things are done "behind the sheetrock" since the customer didn't have a clue anyway.

I went straight through the recession while building and quickly selling specs. in a market that most others thought was dead. Given the fact that volume dropped by 92% and stayed at that level the next five years, they were right.  For the first three years of the collapse my only competition was unsold inventory that other builders were choking on. Often this was being dumped as they liquidated their assets and quit the game. At the end of 2013 I FIRED, having missed retiring in my forties, by a few weeks. The business had been successful to the point that I now have over a million in liquid assets, and additional, free and clear real estate holdings. As for "dumping them as fast as you can" I can't say I ever dumped anything on anybody. I can use any of my previous customers as a reference, and I remain personal friends with many of them. I did jobs for bank officers and suppliers who chose me strictly on my reputation. I sold many homes based on referrals from past customers. Two of my customers recently took the time to attend my father's funeral, 160 miles away, on a snowy, 30* day, One of these guys 
is somebody I built a home for six years ago, and I have had very little contact with since. Does that sound like somebody that got fucked by their builder?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:28:30 PM by paddedhat »

paddedhat

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2015, 06:56:25 PM »
It's simple, cold sheathing and shingles do not melt snow.

That's not true.  I run into the melt/ice issue in February when there's lighter/spotty coatings of snow at the beginning of the day.  'Cause, guess what, we have longer days/more direct Sun.  In December no issue (even up close to freezing), but February it can be low 20's (F) and the shingles collect enough solar heat to cause the melt on surrounding areas during the day, which then freezes overnight...

Do you have correct ventilation, as in fully vented soffits, a high quality, continuous ridge vent, no gable end vents, or open attic windows? Do you have full under-sheathing ventilation (baffle trays, or equal, running for the exterior of the EACH rafter bay to a point above any attic insulation) are there areas where insulation is tightly compacted into the juncture of the ceiling and roof edge, blocking air flow under the sheathing? Do you have any unusual framing details that would prevent the proper flow of air under the roof sheeting in the area that dams? Is the underside of the roof rafters finished with a sheetrock, or plaster ceiling, preventing you from inspecting and determining the quality of the ventilation system? Do you have an adequate level of insulation in your ceiling. In this market the requirement is R-39, but I never use less than 50, and frequently bump that to 60 or more.

Specifically, I ask these questions since I have built tens of millions of dollars worth of homes in the mountains of the northeast, and have never had an issue with ice damming. I also made sure that all the relevant issues I posted above were addressed in each case. During my lengthy career I typically used two huge regional insulating subcontractors. I have had the whole conversation about ice damming with several of their supervisors in the field, and ask if whatever I am doing at the time is best practice, or is their room for improvement? The conversations always confirmed their experience and mine. A well insulated, properly vented roof, will never ever have issues with ice dams.

I'm seriously interested to learn if you have an exception to what my experience, and the best practices followed by subs. seems to indicate was pretty foolproof?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:16:55 PM by paddedhat »

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2015, 04:49:41 AM »
It's simple, cold sheathing and shingles do not melt snow.

That's not true.  I run into the melt/ice issue in February when there's lighter/spotty coatings of snow at the beginning of the day.  'Cause, guess what, we have longer days/more direct Sun.  In December no issue (even up close to freezing), but February it can be low 20's (F) and the shingles collect enough solar heat to cause the melt on surrounding areas during the day, which then freezes overnight...

It would take a weird angling of the house and the sun to make the difference extreme enough between the top and bottom of the roof to cause an ice dam. There's certainly more snow/ice towards the bottom of my roof than towards the top right now, but the gutters are warmed enough by the sun that they carry meltwater down all day rather than filling up with ice.

And the roof I'm looking at is over a porch, so no house heat is involved.

ryan114

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Re: Ice dam problem
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2015, 07:35:16 PM »
The only real solution to ice-damming is to have a cold roof. This is where your insulation is above the ceiling and air is vented into the attic to keep the attic space the same temperature as the outside air. Here in Alaska, that is how houses are built. Trying to seal up the roof might help a little bit but will still fail with large quantities of snow. Be careful trying to physically remove an ice dam because it often leads to roof damage that just makes the problem worse.