The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Do it Yourself Discussion! => Topic started by: Sibley on July 10, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
-
As I'm demo-ing the kitchen, also starting to think about putting the new one in. IE, what order do I need to do?
Tasks:
Demo
Electrical - rewire to code, new lighting, etc
Repair wall as needed
Paint wall/ceiling
Cabinets
Plumbing - not moving, just connect/fix the broken shutoff valve and unclog the drain.
Flooring (sheet laminate)
Appliances
Is that in order?
-
I think flooring goes in before lower cabinets if you're doing those.
And upper cabinets before lower cabinets.
-
Looks good, don't forget countertops and backsplash.
And paint touchups.
Generally I get the big stuff (hvac, plumbing) in the walls before the little stuff (electric).
Also if you are doing floating floors you don't want the lower cabinets installed on top of them, so if one were to install floors before cabinets (like if you have boxes of flooring at the job and cabinets aren't scheduled for two weeks) you can install the floors up to where the cabs will be, with careful measuring. This applies to islands as well. For complicated islands sometimes I will install the floors, set the island on top, mark the cuts, move the island, make the cut, re install the island -- dumb guy method.
-
Thanks for the input.
Counters - haven't ordered those yet, my brain is breaking at the measurement concept. Plus, I doubt the walls are square.
Flooring - mom hasn't picked out her floor yet. It's gonna be either linoleum or vinyl, either sheet or tile. Really depends on where she finds the pattern/color she wants. She wants a terrazzo look. Pretty sure it'll be glue down either way.
Plumbing shouldn't impact anything in the wall, or if it does it'll be removing stuff. Electric is going to change quite a bit though.
Backsplash - did forget, thank you.
Pretty simple galley design, no islands.
Cabinets are upper and lower. They are actually at the store now. I need to go clean out the garage so we can get them delivered.
-
I like to have whoever is making the counters measure the installed cabinets before the counters are fabricated.
They'll do a bid based on the plans.
-
A few thoughts.
As I'm demo-ing the kitchen, also starting to think about putting the new one in. IE, what order do I need to do?
Tasks:
Demo
A good place for actual construction to start, but miles of planning comes first. I know it a technicality and it seems like you have started and are doing that, but I always like to have it (usually in multiple steps/phases) on my check list.
Electrical - rewire to code, new lighting, etc
In most places existing wiring is grandfathered. So unless you are changing it, you might not have to bring it up to code.
I have some electrical running and other utilities/systems running in the toe kick space of a couple of my cabinets so I had to do some after/with cabinets.
Repair wall as needed
Paint wall/ceiling
Just be prepared for touch-up. It is far from impossible that there will be a ding/scratch/scrape/scuff. Also paint is more durable if given time to cure.
Cabinets
As mentioned backsplash is missing from the list and I would add exhaust hood/over-the-range microwave at this step as well.
Plumbing - not moving, just connect/fix the broken shutoff valve and unclog the drain.
This depends on where the valves our and whether you have additional shut-offs without taking the whole house offline. If the valves will be located in a cabinet you may have to remove them before installation of the new cabinets, or before removal of the old, in order to keep the holes in the cabinet back/bottom small. If you cannot shut off individual runs you can buy sharkbite caps and the removal tool for later.
Personally, I like to address all of the utility first. That way if I find a problem, or cause a problem/leak, I do damage or have to undo work. So I would have plumbing be two steps. The first would be up with demo and electrical addressing all of the removal of old items, and fixing of existing problems, and the second somewhere after cabinets and countertops which addresses new valves and final connections (also you cannot install and connects sinks/faucets until the countertops are in).
Flooring (sheet laminate)
In a complete remodel, I like to do flooring before cabinets. That way I can run the flooring at least slightly under the cabinet and avoid all the work of fitting it tight to the cabinet or using a (in my opinion) ugly solution to cover any gap.
Appliances
This one depends. I have put appliances in earlier because I wanted to be able to use them sooner. I have also put appliance is with the cabinets only partially installed for ease of access (shouldn't be impossible with the cabinets installed, but sometimes easier.
Is that in order?
[/quote]
Missing from the original post, though discussed in the thread is countertops. If you are going solid surface a fabricator can quote the job using basic measurements, but should come out and measure everything and address out of square or uneven walls. There are DIY friendly countertops out there in which case measurements will be more critical. Countertops were the only thing we hired out in our kitchen ... we even build the cabinet and all 29 drawers they contain from scratch. This probably slots in between where you have cabinets and plumbing.
-
I forgot everyone is hyper detailed :) Bigger picture plan.
The whole kitchen has been planned, to the 1/4 inch. It's a small galley kitchen, limited number of cabinets, no turns or anything complicated. Mom is swapping the location of the range and fridge, and also wants an electric stove vs a gas one. So the gas line is being capped in the basement and wall/floor patched. Plus, we have to add the special outlet for the new range, and since there will be a built in microwave over the stove also have to add the outlet for that. Yes, we already have the range cord so the electrician will know what's needed. The outlets by the sink are not GFI, so have to do that too. At that point, we'll be about 90% to code anyway so might as well finish. We'll just be adding a couple extra outlets I think.
We need to cap the water pipes to get the old cabinet out (without a saw at least) and the new cabinet in. One valve isn't working properly anyway, so the 2nd is suspect by association. Not moving the water lines. The drain is janky looking, but it's ok for now. It will be addressed by the plumber at some point but can be done any time given the location. The sink was leaking, but it was on the sink/disposal side of things which has all been removed.
Fridge, range, dishwasher, microwave, cabinets are ordered. New light fixtures and sink are on site out of the way. Cabinets are at the store, pending delivery to the house.
I'm prepared to handle the painting whenever. It's just easier to do most of it before cabinets go in, but I don't actually know yet how the timing will work out. I also don't think mom has decided on a color yet. At least, she hasn't told me if she has (and I wouldn't be surprised if she's decided but hasn't told me). There may be a battle between mom and dad regarding ceiling color too. Not my problem as long as the ceiling paint is there when I need it.
I do need to put mom to figuring out backsplash. She's cognitively unable to handle too many pieces at once, and there's a lot going on so backsplash needs to wait for now. It can also be done after install if needed.
Mom hasn't picked out flooring yet. But she does want toe molding and it was ordered with the cabinets, regardless of how the floor goes in.
Appliances will be stored in the garage until installation. Parent's aren't living in the house yet so no kitchen isn't a problem.
Countertops - mom has picked out laminate countertops. Will order from Menards when ready, and I don't think they come out to measure. Will confirm if they do. We asked, and there don't seem to be delays on delivery for those.
Started demo this weekend. We got the easy stuff out. The rest is not budging.
-
Just some thoughts after redoing my kitchen a couple years ago.
Be prepared for multiple job visits to the site by plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc. Often they have to do a rough install first, then inspections and other things need to happen before they can come back for the final install. If you aren't doing the appliance install yourself, sometimes if contracted out, this can mean a third visit out to finish the connections. These aren't something to worry about other than it can add lengthy waiting periods to get things completed.
When painting walls especially, do some layout work with a marker where cabinets are going to go so you can skip painting those areas. Saves a lot of time and paint.
Any drywall work during summer can take a lot of drying time in humid weather, even with the quick drying stuff. I didn't use the quick drying stuff and had to wait a couple days at one point for it to dry to where I could sand and do touch up work.
There are a couple schools of thought about flooring. Some put it down before cabinets and appliances with the theory that if you ever change the layout, you don't have to patch in the flooring. I think this really only applies if you use solid hardwood flooring which can be readily sanded down and restained in the future if you change things again. Any modern engineered, vinyl or pre-finished flooring that can't be easily sanded, wouldn't be worth putting under cabinets or most appliances because if you do change the layout, there will be color differences between the main part and what was under the cabinets that you can't easily fix short of replacing the floor. So my preference is to just use plywood the thickness of your flooring underneath the cabinets and appliances that aren't likely to move in the future. I usually do floor underneath the refrigerator because that often moves with the owners. So doing it this way means that flooring is the last thing I do on your list and not before cabinets.
We did our kitchen remodel prior to Covid and still had lots of lead time issues waiting on everything from appliances to backsplash. I've heard that problem has only gotten worse with Covid so just be prepared for things taking way longer, especially when dependent on contractors to do the bulk of the work. One of the things I did that greatly helped ease the pain of the long waits was that I built a temporary table to hold my cooktop and plumbed it into the gas line in my basement so we could still cook during the remodel. We also had a laundry sink we could use to wash dishes in. Just being able to prepare some food that wasn't microwave ready helped ease the pain of waiting on various things.
-
The location for the electric stove outlet should be generic, but can sometimes be weird. It would be good to check the actual stove you ordered to be sure the electrician puts it at the right height or biased left/right to work for your particular model.
-
@lthenderson Thank you. Parents are living with me until the house is ready for them. I am the decider on when the house is ready, and big chunk of that is the kitchen status.
Yes, I'm expecting 2 plumbing visits and possibly 2 electrician visits, but if surprises happen that's ok. It would be more problematic with plumbing, unless my plumber friend could stop by to handle something. (He's pretty busy though.) No HVAC involved in the changes. And noted on the painting. We can and will turn on the AC to help with the humidity issues.
This kitchen isn't getting changed again while my parents own it, and frankly I'd be shocked if anyone else would prefer what they're putting in. It's very reminiscent of a basic 70/80s kitchen, but not those colors. So how I do the floor is whatever is easiest/cheaper, not with future owners in mind. If I put the flooring in first, I will be putting cardboard down to protect it though through the rest of the work.
@uniwelder I will check on that and let the electrician know. The cord is 6 ft long so we have some flexibility.
-
In my case, it wasn’t cord length causing the problem. Electric stoves usually have a cavity where the cord coils up and allows the plug to protrude. If the outlet isn’t within that range, you might not be able to push the stove all the way back against the wall, so it’ll stick out a couple inches more than it should.
-
We need to cap the water pipes to get the old cabinet out (without a saw at least) and the new cabinet in. One valve isn't working properly anyway, so the 2nd is suspect by association. Not moving the water lines. The drain is janky looking, but it's ok for now. It will be addressed by the plumber at some point but can be done any time given the location. The sink was leaking, but it was on the sink/disposal side of things which has all been removed.
If your water supply lines are coming through the base of the cabinets I would suggest you have the plumber place them in the walls instead, as well as the drain. It will make the cabinet install easier as well as bring the infrastructure up to the current standard.
Just remove a section of drywall/plaster behind the sink cabinet,
you should be adding two circuits here as well, one for dishwasher, one for disposal. Most dishwashers come with a plug now, a hole for the plug/cord is drilled through the lower rear section of the sink cabinet into the dishwasher location.
Make sure they patch the drywall and do a decent job mudding to keep air movement to a minimum.
-
We need to cap the water pipes to get the old cabinet out (without a saw at least) and the new cabinet in. One valve isn't working properly anyway, so the 2nd is suspect by association. Not moving the water lines. The drain is janky looking, but it's ok for now. It will be addressed by the plumber at some point but can be done any time given the location. The sink was leaking, but it was on the sink/disposal side of things which has all been removed.
If your water supply lines are coming through the base of the cabinets I would suggest you have the plumber place them in the walls instead, as well as the drain. It will make the cabinet install easier as well as bring the infrastructure up to the current standard.
Just remove a section of drywall/plaster behind the sink cabinet,
you should be adding two circuits here as well, one for dishwasher, one for disposal. Most dishwashers come with a plug now, a hole for the plug/cord is drilled through the lower rear section of the sink cabinet into the dishwasher location.
Make sure they patch the drywall and do a decent job mudding to keep air movement to a minimum.
The dishwasher can do either hardwire or plug, I checked. There is a hardline already there, so I'll let the person who hooks it up decide.
Electrician will be told the plan and asked to bring up to code.
In happy news, my friend who IS an electrician and plumber and framer and finisher and roofer and pretty much everything else got fed up with his day job and told them to take a hike for a bit. So he offered to do a bunch of the work. He starts on the plumbing today :) He also identified a snag with the kitchen plan - there's a vent stack in the soffit. Once we finish the demo, he will look at it and figure out what can be done to un-snag the plan. Friend doesn't want to do all the electric, so he'll do whatever pieces he wants and then I'll call the other electrician to finish up. Some of the work involves going in the attic and he just doesn't wanna. Can't say I blame him.
-
The refrigerator is usually deeper than the stove. Swapping the stove and refrigerator may work width-wise, but think about how the fridge will look extending out, not even with the cabinets (and if it'll be in the way).
-
The old kitchen is demo'ed. My neighbor helped, we never would have gotten everything out without him. I'm tired. And I hurt. The ibuprofen hasn't kicked in yet.
Swapping the fridge and stove will actually work much better in the space. They cut into the wall (including studs) to fit the old fridge. Luckily, it's not a load bearing wall. The new location will accommodate the fridge much better, and if it sticks out, oh well. It's not like they're designing a high end kitchen.
And mom picked her flooring. Sheet vinyl. The store is going to install it (local carpet and flooring store), so they'll measure once cabinets are in and install afterwards.
-
If a regular-size fridge will stick out, you could always go for a counter-depth fridge instead.
-
When we did our kitchen remodel a couple years back, I was all set on a counter depth refrigerator until I looked at the lack of selection and more importantly the prices. So instead, along the wall where the refrigerator went, we pulled out the pantry cabinets on one side of the refrigerator to be flush with the refrigerator. It left like an 8 inch space behind the cabinets but I think the overall look was well worth it. To the right of the refrigerator, we put our stove and microwave and just stepped those cabinets back a bit. The cavity we left for the refrigerator will now fit a standard sized one but we put our old one (sized to fit a specific space in our old kitchen) back in it since it was still in good working order and thus the large gaps between it and the cavity opening. It probably cost us less than $20 in 2x4's to offset the cabinets to make the refrigerator look counter depth but saved us probably several thousand dollars it would have actually cost extra to buy a counter depth refrigerator and we end up with a refrigerator that can hold more food.
-
Fridge has already been ordered, its not a counter depth. Mom doesn't really care if it sticks out I guess.
A visual might help. The colors are wrong, but the layout and general materials in this (before pics) are pretty much accurate to what mom wants: https://www.apartmenttherapy.com/boho-redo-1990s-kitchen-36746590
I'm getting nervous about timing - the electric might not be done when the kitchen guy comes. Cross your fingers. Luckily, the contractor I'm using I know, so if I need to I can call him and ask if he could push us back a week. There's also a bunch of stuff that isn't kitchen related that is either ready to go, and even more ordered and I'm waiting for it. Basically, I need to make the list for that contractor, figure out what can be done now and what I'm waiting on, then figure out when he's thinking he can come and compare to the electric timing. Which I won't know until Tuesday. My head hurts!
-
Don't stress out. The timing will only continue to get worse I suspect, especially in today's world where contractors seem to be scheduled out for years in advance. I frequently had to stop, take a deep breath and remind myself that eventually it will get done and this will all seem like a bad dream. Now two years later, it still seems like a bad dream but we've made a lot of good memories in the new kitchen since that I can turn my mind too when the bad dream thought comes back to the forefront.
-
Update on the kitchen. All the demo is done, has been done. The trash guys I'm sure hate us but they've taken everything so far.
Electrician comes today. Plumbing work needed for kitchen install was done last week.
The guy who's doing the kitchen install had a couple day delay, so he's coming this week. Not sure what day exactly yet, need to ask him. He's got a list that is more than just the kitchen, so if the electrician isn't quite done then he can work on other stuff.
-
How did they make out with the install?
We are in the prelim stages of renovating our small galley kitchen (9.75ft x 8ft). When we bought the place 3 years ago I was ready to tear out one of the walls and make it open concept. Spouse suggested we hold off a bit ... she was right (again!). Although I wish I had a bit more counter space for prep / post cooking, I've come to like (not quite love) my little galley.
-
Kitchen is mostly in. Waiting for the countertops to arrive and be installed, not sure what date though. Dishwasher is being delivered/installed today. Flooring goes in about 2 weeks, yes after the cabinets. In the end, my parents' incompetence dictated that timing. Pending 2 more end panels, one we miscounted and the 2nd we didn't think we would need a piece but changed minds once we saw it. Fridge and stove are in place, though they'll have to move for the flooring install. Almost final plumbing work getting done today (I hope).
Had some unwelcome surprises with cut/removed studs, a plumbing vent, and so forth, but we were able to repair everything. Par for the course really. The guy who installed everything is someone I've used on my house. He's got limitations, but as long as you work within those limits he's good. Kitchens are well within his skill set.
Parents move in next week.
One bit of lesson learned: mom picked new overhead lights. They are apparently smart lights. I now have a video of those smart lights strobing in sync with the radio. Not sure if it'll be a problem, if so we'll have to replace those lights. And I will be making sure they're not smart.
-
Flooring goes in about 2 weeks, yes after the cabinets. In the end, my parents' incompetence dictated that timing.
Since the flooring is sheet vinyl, I think their incompetence is a good thing. I wouldn't install it under the cabinets even if I had the time. It just means someone will be spending a lot of time in the future cutting around the cabinets to remove it and replace it with something else. Unless you will be remodeling the kitchen again and moving cabinets around, it is just a waste of money flooring under the cabinets.
-
Flooring goes in about 2 weeks, yes after the cabinets. In the end, my parents' incompetence dictated that timing.
Since the flooring is sheet vinyl, I think their incompetence is a good thing. I wouldn't install it under the cabinets even if I had the time. It just means someone will be spending a lot of time in the future cutting around the cabinets to remove it and replace it with something else. Unless you will be remodeling the kitchen again and moving cabinets around, it is just a waste of money flooring under the cabinets.
And if you wanted to do laminate flooring in the future, it needs to float so it wouldn't be installed under the cabinets anyway. IMO the only time you'd really want to install under the cabinets is if you were doing hardwood flooring or maybe tile?
My kitchen had hardwood installed up to the cabinets, which was unfortunate when I replaced the cabinets and the size was ever so slightly different so I had to find a reasonable match for the hardwood and patch it in. It came out a LOT better than it could have, lol.
-
Flooring goes in about 2 weeks, yes after the cabinets. In the end, my parents' incompetence dictated that timing.
Since the flooring is sheet vinyl, I think their incompetence is a good thing. I wouldn't install it under the cabinets even if I had the time. It just means someone will be spending a lot of time in the future cutting around the cabinets to remove it and replace it with something else. Unless you will be remodeling the kitchen again and moving cabinets around, it is just a waste of money flooring under the cabinets.
That kitchen is not getting changed. And while parent's incompetence worked in this instance, it caused a lot of problems (ie, the whole post about the living room floor. No, I haven't touched it. It also hasn't been refinished, and it won't be. I'm also still angry at my mom.)
However, thanks to someone cheaping out, we should redo the bathroom floor. Removed nasty old vanity and there's an inch gap down to the subfloor. Thanks to a suggestion from a friend we have a way to disguise the whole thing and also have functional space. I'll let mom drive getting that floor replaced (ie, it'll probably never happen).