Keep or compromise (render useless) ceiling radiant heat?

[chemistk]

My wife and I recently purchased a rambling ranch built in the mid-60's, it was a model home for the neighborhood and so it has all the fancy upgrades from the time. In this case, every room on the main level except for the bathrooms has in-ceiling radiant heat. We also have a traditional HVAC system (electric as well) ducted to each room through the attic.

I kind of wrote it off when we toured the house, but now am realizing that it's going to pose some challenges. Namely - we have plans to install recessed lighting in the living room/kitchen, and ceiling fans in the bedrooms. All the rooms currently have switched outlets to accommodate floor lamps and I have always viewed that as a stupid compromise, so this is pretty important to us.

Problem is, most ceiling radiant heat is run in a tight enough coil that it's probably not realistic for us to be able to find gaps in the coil to cut a hole for each light/fan. Ceiling radiant heat fell way out of favor in the late 70s/early 80s, so there's really no replacement options and a lot of the guys who would have installed these (especially in our area) are probably now deceased. From what I understand, the near universal recommendation is that if the coil is damaged, you should not even consider trying to splice it. It's near impossible to relocate the coils too, as the traditional installation approach is to put up one layer of sheetrock, then staple or glue the coils, then install another layer of sheetrock - so I'd have to attempt to surgically remove sandwiched 65 year old sheetrock just to even have the possibility of moving the coil.

It sounds like those who still have it are enthusiastic fans, claiming that it's a more 'effective' heat than any other types of radiant. We did try it in one room despite being a humid Mid Atlantic summer, and it was surprisingly warm but in an odd way - like sitting under an IR heater in an outdoor dining area.

If we left it intact, we'd use it minimally to save on electric (we do have a 9.5kW solar system), but I do think some of these rooms will need supplemental heat. I don't think we want to do this since having overhead lighting is pretty important for us, but on the other hand if we do just pull the breakers out of the panel, then we need to identify an alternative heat source for at least the bedrooms. There is also the lingering thought in the back of my mind that it could easily turn into a fire hazard.

Has anyone here encountered ceiling radiant? Would you keep it or just get rid of it?

[Omy]

I sold a house that had it. The owners raved about it. Apparently having a warm head tricks you into feeling warm - so less heat is necessary to feel comfortable. And their heating bills were quite low.

However, the majority of buyers have concerns similar to the ones you've mentioned. I'd be inclined to ditch it in favor of overhead lighting.

[sonofsven]

Have you gone through a winter with it?
I have zero experience with radiant ceiling heat, but radiant heat in general is usually quite good, your system might be really nice.
Removing it would mean removing the ceilings, too? That's a can of worms. About the only positive is it would be easier to set all the cans.

[Morning Glory]

Never heard of ceiling radiant heat but I hate recessed lighting. Would much rather have a few inches higher ceiling any day. My last house had a million can lights with glass and I had to climb on a ladder and dump out the dead bugs. Ugh. I like ceiling fans though. Your call. I would wait one winter and try out the radiant vs forced air heating to see which is more efficient. If your power company provides daily usage data you could even do matched controls based on outdoor temperature.

[chemistk]

I sold a house that had it. The owners raved about it. Apparently having a warm head tricks you into feeling warm - so less heat is necessary to feel comfortable. And their heating bills were quite low.

However, the majority of buyers have concerns similar to the ones you've mentioned. I'd be inclined to ditch it in favor of overhead lighting.

Yeah, it's interesting because what I see on older forums is owners raving about it, but electricians and contractors discussing the numerous drawbacks. Another consideration for us is that all the thermostats are really old rotary dial types that are really easy to accidentally turn on if you bump into them. There are a couple digital programmable options but they're ~$55 each, so replacing even half of them would be a few hundred. But if I shut them off at the breaker, I don't need to be worried that a room is accidentally hot.

Have you gone through a winter with it?
I have zero experience with radiant ceiling heat, but radiant heat in general is usually quite good, your system might be really nice.
Removing it would mean removing the ceilings, too? That's a can of worms. About the only positive is it would be easier to set all the cans.

We haven't yet, depending on how other work goes, we might have to kick this down the road. Don't have to remove the ceilings though, a common approach is to just disconnect the wires from the thermostat, but yeah it would be really easy to install recessed lighting if I'm already doing new drywall. Something for me to consider.

Never heard of ceiling radiant heat but I hate recessed lighting. Would much rather have a few inches higher ceiling any day. My last house had a million can lights with glass and I had to climb on a ladder and dump out the dead bugs. Ugh. I like ceiling fans though. Your call. I would wait one winter and try out the radiant vs forced air heating to see which is more efficient. If your power company provides daily usage data you could even do matched controls based on outdoor temperature.

Problem is, except for 2 fixtures in the kitchen, one in the dining room, and one in the hallway, we have absolutely no ceiling lights. The house gets super dark and floor lamps take up too much space, and even if I wanted to install track lighting or 'standard' ceiling fixtures, I still have to put a junction box in the ceiling and risk cutting the heat coils.

Like I said above, we might see what it's like in tandem with the forced air, and I could make a case for keeping it, but at this point I think I'm leaning toward scrapping it.

[AccidentialMustache]

Could you use semi-hidden, upward-firing LED strips to accomplish any of what you want without ripping the strip heat coils? We put some along a double interior sliding glass door's trim (2 doors back to back between the house and the sun porch) and it is a fairly nice light. Actually it was a fancy smart color version, so it does double-duty as a nightlight (red; dim) during the nighttime.

Alternately, could you punch small enough holes you could use thin LED surface mounts in place of cans?We have LED can replacements in many of our cans and they are themselves only an inch to inch and a half thick. I'd guess that could be under and inch if it wasn't going in a can, including an opaque diffuser so it wasn't annoying to the eyes.

[chemistk]

Could you use semi-hidden, upward-firing LED strips to accomplish any of what you want without ripping the strip heat coils? We put some along a double interior sliding glass door's trim (2 doors back to back between the house and the sun porch) and it is a fairly nice light. Actually it was a fancy smart color version, so it does double-duty as a nightlight (red; dim) during the nighttime.

Alternately, could you punch small enough holes you could use thin LED surface mounts in place of cans?We have LED can replacements in many of our cans and they are themselves only an inch to inch and a half thick. I'd guess that could be under and inch if it wasn't going in a can, including an opaque diffuser so it wasn't annoying to the eyes.

This is actually one idea I was kind of kicking around for our living/dining room - I could put up a shallow fake beam in the room & install the LED lights into the beam, plus run the wiring through the 'beam' and feed it through the wall where it meets the ceiling. I wouldn't even need to go into the attic to install, I could just run the wiring through the wall near where it meets the ceiling & wire the lights to the existing switch.

But that doesn't help in the bedrooms for a ceiling fan.

[lthenderson]

Has anyone here encountered ceiling radiant? Would you keep it or just get rid of it?

I don't have any experience with ceiling radiant heat but it does sound like a pain if one wants to penetrate the ceiling with holes. It sounds like the biggest obstacle might be recessed lighting. That can probably be solved very easily by just using LED recessed puck lights like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Recessed-Lighting-Junction-Downlight-Certified/dp/B08MTHQ8F9

They are only a half inch thick so probably the same thickness as the interior facing sheet of drywall and the only hole necessary through the cavity that contains your radiant heating would be one large enough to just thread the wires. For ceiling fans, all is one of those ceiling fan support braces and perhaps a couple junction box extensions to get through the extra layer of drywall and a hole large enough for the junction box. They are only about 4 or 5 inches per side.

[chemistk]

Has anyone here encountered ceiling radiant? Would you keep it or just get rid of it?

I don't have any experience with ceiling radiant heat but it does sound like a pain if one wants to penetrate the ceiling with holes. It sounds like the biggest obstacle might be recessed lighting. That can probably be solved very easily by just using LED recessed puck lights like these:

https://www.amazon.com/Recessed-Lighting-Junction-Downlight-Certified/dp/B08MTHQ8F9

They are only a half inch thick so probably the same thickness as the interior facing sheet of drywall and the only hole necessary through the cavity that contains your radiant heating would be one large enough to just thread the wires. For ceiling fans, all is one of those ceiling fan support braces and perhaps a couple junction box extensions to get through the extra layer of drywall and a hole large enough for the junction box. They are only about 4 or 5 inches per side.

From what I've seen, depending on installation, I might not have 4 or 5 inches even - the most common installations were no more than 6 inches between wires. I need to actually figure our exactly where they are, I'm going to try with a contact tester but if that's not defined enough I need to get a thermal imaging camera and mark off exactly how they run.

[Morning Glory]

I didn't think of it last night but my mom's house has wall sconces instead of ceiling lights in some of the rooms. That wouldn't help with fans but it would get rid of the floor lamps anyway.

[NaN]

If you are willing to spend $400 you might be able to locate the wires with this device:

https://www.flir.com/products/flir-one-pro/

The wires would show up as hot spots periodic every six inches or so. I can easily make out where studs are with this thing. And that's all 'passive heat' to highlight insulation differences between the fiberglass and wood. With active heat from wires I think it should light up nicely.

[AccidentialMustache]

But that doesn't help in the bedrooms for a ceiling fan.

If you have a fan you have power. Did they run two separate circuits up so you can have a fan + light on separated switches? If so, I would bet with some creativity, you could do a very shallow lowered ceiling and mount the fan (or a new, extra-shallow fan) to that? Use the lowered ceiling to do the recess trick and use indirect "overdone" led-based lighting?

[stoaX]

I lived in a house in Connecticut that had radiant heat from the ceiling.  I didn't find it any better than more conventional ways of heating the house.  Mrs StoaX felt it was clearly inferior. 

My electric bills weren't as bad as I thought they were going to be, however it was the best insulated house I ever lived in. 

Finally, having electric ceiling radiant heat was definitely not a selling point when we put the house up for sale. 

[bacchi]

Wouldn't most of the heat travel upwards into the attic?

[Fishindude]

Radiant heat in the ceiling was a fad for a while and got installed in a number of houses.  It does feel nice and warm in a room when that heat is radiating down on you.   However, it's typically electric, and heat rises, so it's rather inefficient.    If you have an alternate heat source such as a furnace, I'd have an electrician terminate power to the ceiling radiant and abandon it in place.

[Highbeam]

So you have line voltage rotary thermostats in each room. That's great. You will take the output from that thermostat and instead of going up to the ceiling, you will run it down to an in the wall electric wall heater. These things are cheap, very safe, and wattage is adjustable. You can get them at the local big box store.

Just abandon the ceiling heat in place. You don't need to remove the dead wires just like you don't need to remove abandoned circuit wires in a wall. Cut through them at will to install can lights.

You will need to be mindful of the total load on each heating circuit due to the wall heaters. The rotary thermostats can be replaced with modern, of the shelf, digital and programmable thermostats if you want. 

[chemistk]

So you have line voltage rotary thermostats in each room. That's great. You will take the output from that thermostat and instead of going up to the ceiling, you will run it down to an in the wall electric wall heater. These things are cheap, very safe, and wattage is adjustable. You can get them at the local big box store.

Just abandon the ceiling heat in place. You don't need to remove the dead wires just like you don't need to remove abandoned circuit wires in a wall. Cut through them at will to install can lights.

You will need to be mindful of the total load on each heating circuit due to the wall heaters. The rotary thermostats can be replaced with modern, of the shelf, digital and programmable thermostats if you want.

I was actually thinking of this thread the other day when I was staring at the digital thermostats at Home Depot. We've met a number of people on the street since moving in and the opinions on heating are mixed.

Our two neighbors on either side of us still use their heat. One of them initially picked up a few "efficient" space heaters (those Amish stove type heaters) only to find that running the ceiling heat was about 30% cheaper.

But another two neighbors abandoned it in place. One uses a pellet stove as their primary heat source, but that's not necessarily a cheap retrofit and our only chimney outlet is on the main level, reducing the efficiency of said stove. We'd also have to build out the hearth to protect the floor. And out 2 year old would assuredly get burned. Really enticing idea for down the road though. I'm not sure what the other people use.

We have electric-heat forced air, and this upcoming winter will be our first in this house so we're going to see how it goes.

Regardless of whether we decide to get baseboards, the digital thermostats are going to be something we do in the next few months. Last thing we need is for the kids to turn on the heat and us not know about it.

[Papa bear]

Here’s a company that still makes radiant heat panels, typically installed on a ceiling or on wall.  Big with hot yoga studios. 

https://electricheat.com

You can run these on a Tstat and will run off of 120v or 240v.

I don’t know how your ceiling is run, but I wouldn’t imagine have a few 5” holes in the drywall to run the newer “recessed” light kits (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Halo-White-LED-Remodel-and-New-Construction-Recessed-Light-Kit-Fits-Opening-5-in/1001772158) would cause a problem. Unless of course, you just have resistance wires run everywhere in the ceiling like you would have with radiant heat mat on a floor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chemistk]

Here’s a company that still makes radiant heat panels, typically installed on a ceiling or on wall.  Big with hot yoga studios. 

https://electricheat.com

You can run these on a Tstat and will run off of 120v or 240v.

I don’t know how your ceiling is run, but I wouldn’t imagine have a few 5” holes in the drywall to run the newer “recessed” light kits (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Halo-White-LED-Remodel-and-New-Construction-Recessed-Light-Kit-Fits-Opening-5-in/1001772158) would cause a problem. Unless of course, you just have resistance wires run everywhere in the ceiling like you would have with radiant heat mat on a floor. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bolded is how these were installed - resistance wires on approximately a 6" center.

[sonofsven]

So you have line voltage rotary thermostats in each room. That's great. You will take the output from that thermostat and instead of going up to the ceiling, you will run it down to an in the wall electric wall heater. These things are cheap, very safe, and wattage is adjustable. You can get them at the local big box store.

Just abandon the ceiling heat in place. You don't need to remove the dead wires just like you don't need to remove abandoned circuit wires in a wall. Cut through them at will to install can lights.

You will need to be mindful of the total load on each heating circuit due to the wall heaters. The rotary thermostats can be replaced with modern, of the shelf, digital and programmable thermostats if you want.

I was actually thinking of this thread the other day when I was staring at the digital thermostats at Home Depot. We've met a number of people on the street since moving in and the opinions on heating are mixed.

Our two neighbors on either side of us still use their heat. One of them initially picked up a few "efficient" space heaters (those Amish stove type heaters) only to find that running the ceiling heat was about 30% cheaper.

But another two neighbors abandoned it in place. One uses a pellet stove as their primary heat source, but that's not necessarily a cheap retrofit and our only chimney outlet is on the main level, reducing the efficiency of said stove. We'd also have to build out the hearth to protect the floor. And out 2 year old would assuredly get burned. Really enticing idea for down the road though. I'm not sure what the other people use.

We have electric-heat forced air, and this upcoming winter will be our first in this house so we're going to see how it goes.

Regardless of whether we decide to get baseboards, the digital thermostats are going to be something we do in the next few months. Last thing we need is for the kids to turn on the heat and us not know about it.

So you have electric forced air in addition to the ceiling heat? Do you have a heat pump, or can you add one to the system? Pretty much everything going in in my area is heat pumps and mini splits.
Can you just turn off the breakers that supply the ceiling heat and avoid the digital thermostat?

That's interesting you still have two neighbors that use it, it doesn't surprise me.

[chemistk]

So you have line voltage rotary thermostats in each room. That's great. You will take the output from that thermostat and instead of going up to the ceiling, you will run it down to an in the wall electric wall heater. These things are cheap, very safe, and wattage is adjustable. You can get them at the local big box store.

Just abandon the ceiling heat in place. You don't need to remove the dead wires just like you don't need to remove abandoned circuit wires in a wall. Cut through them at will to install can lights.

You will need to be mindful of the total load on each heating circuit due to the wall heaters. The rotary thermostats can be replaced with modern, of the shelf, digital and programmable thermostats if you want.

I was actually thinking of this thread the other day when I was staring at the digital thermostats at Home Depot. We've met a number of people on the street since moving in and the opinions on heating are mixed.

Our two neighbors on either side of us still use their heat. One of them initially picked up a few "efficient" space heaters (those Amish stove type heaters) only to find that running the ceiling heat was about 30% cheaper.

But another two neighbors abandoned it in place. One uses a pellet stove as their primary heat source, but that's not necessarily a cheap retrofit and our only chimney outlet is on the main level, reducing the efficiency of said stove. We'd also have to build out the hearth to protect the floor. And out 2 year old would assuredly get burned. Really enticing idea for down the road though. I'm not sure what the other people use.

We have electric-heat forced air, and this upcoming winter will be our first in this house so we're going to see how it goes.

Regardless of whether we decide to get baseboards, the digital thermostats are going to be something we do in the next few months. Last thing we need is for the kids to turn on the heat and us not know about it.

So you have electric forced air in addition to the ceiling heat? Do you have a heat pump, or can you add one to the system? Pretty much everything going in in my area is heat pumps and mini splits.
Can you just turn off the breakers that supply the ceiling heat and avoid the digital thermostat?

That's interesting you still have two neighbors that use it, it doesn't surprise me.

So the neighbor that found it to be efficient doesn't have forced air. All they've got is baseboard in the bathrooms/basement and ceiling radiant in the main rooms.

Our HVAC was a retrofit, there's almost zero chance the house came new with it. SPD didn't list installation date but if I had to guess I'd say it was the early 80's when our dining room was added and the roof structure was opened up to tie in the new roof section.

No heat pump but we need a new A/C compressor in the next couple years (18 years old and slowly leaking refrigerant) so when we replace that, it'll be something to look into.

Yeah for some of them, I'll be killing the breaker. But I'm still going to see what it's like to heat the house with it as the primary source for a few days at a time, both to see energy consumption and because frankly I'm curious.