Jasco TSP AND Varnish and Stain remover?

[jeromedawg]

Hey all,

We're planning to get supplies for a kitchen repainting project - I was curious as the current cabinets just have varnish/stain on them. Do we need to use TSP before we apply the varnish and stain remover? Or can we just go straight at the cabinets with the varnish and stain remover?

I've been roughly following http://www.frugalwoods.com/2014/05/03/how-to-refinish-kitchen-cabinets-part-1 for pointers. But spoke with someone at our local OSH and he recommended using Jasco Varnish and Stain remover.

I'm assuming the order would roughly go something like this assuming TSP is not necessary. BTW: Our total area of paint is 80sq ft per https://www.rustoleum.com/pages/homeowner/tools/cabinet-calculator/ (I don't know if that factors in the inside of the cabinet doors though - we are not intending to paint the insides of the cabinets btw):

1) Remove all cabinet doors/drawers
2) Apply Jasco varnish and stain remover
3) Sand and/or wipe off gunk
4) Apply additional varnish and stain remover where required (2 full coats should need be necessary so I think a single quart would be enough)
5) If Step 4, sand further and/or wipe of gunk
6) Primer coat 1
7) Sand and caulk where needed
8) Primer coat 2
9) Paint coat 1
10) Paint coat 2
11) Reassemble

[jeromedawg]

One more question for that matter - I think I either read or heard from someone that if you're deciding between two shades of white, one slightly darker and one lighter, and in a small space, try to stick with the lighter shade as it will show better overall... thoughts on that?

What paintbrushes do you guys recommend using for cabinets/trim anyway? Wooster? Purdy? Harbor Freight cheapos?

[lthenderson]

I always use TSP or similar degreaser before the varnish remover. In my experience, especially the cabinets near the stove tend to get significant amounts of grease buildup. It is a cheap and quick step to do and it will allow the varnish remover to do a better job the first time. But I suppose if you are willing to go through multiple applications of the varnish remover, fumes and cleanup involved, you could probably skip the TSP.

I always use Purdy brushes from my local Sherwin Williams store. They cost a bit more but they hold up extremely well and if cleaned out and taken care of, will last through several projects.

[jeromedawg]

I always use TSP or similar degreaser before the varnish remover. In my experience, especially the cabinets near the stove tend to get significant amounts of grease buildup. It is a cheap and quick step to do and it will allow the varnish remover to do a better job the first time. But I suppose if you are willing to go through multiple applications of the varnish remover, fumes and cleanup involved, you could probably skip the TSP.

I always use Purdy brushes from my local Sherwin Williams store. They cost a bit more but they hold up extremely well and if cleaned out and taken care of, will last through several projects.

Thanks! Good to know on the TSP - I can't tell if there's much grease on the cabinets or not but I have noticed that much of the varnish on some cabinets has faded quite a bit from repeated handling. The OSH employee last time recommended varnish & stain remover possibly a couple coats of it. This time there was another guy who recommended just going over the cabinets with a sander rather than any stripper/remover/etc if I don't want to deal with fumes. Especially since I'm putting primer and paint over it. I'm more inclined to doing a thorough procedure to remove all the existing stuff though.

BTW: I went back and picked up the BM Sure Seal primer and Shadow White paint sample. The OSH employee I spoke with this time recommended just going with the BM Sure Seal since it's the same brand and if I have any issues it's easier to deal with them if I have to contact them for some reason. Is BM Sure Seal good for cabinets? Or is there a specific primer that would be better for this application and in particular one that goes best with the BM Advance in the context of cabinets?

In terms of color, Shadow white seems slightly darker than Chantilly lace, so I'm still not sure what we will want to go with... a white with grey/darker undertones vs a lighter white that might be creamier. My wife seemed to notice that the chantilly showed more "yellow" and "creamy" but I think that's because it takes on the colors of whatever lighting (whether is the natural sunlight coming in or the LED light bars we have above).

Regarding brushes: the last time I went into OSH the other employee recommended the BM Wooster nylon polyester brush. I'm not sure if certain brushes are "designed" or "optimized" for certain paint brands, etc.

[Sibley]

Brushes: read the labels. They'll tell you what you can use them for. Do not deviate from that, unless you're just using them to apply stripper in which case go to the dollar store because you'll be throwing them out. Possibly in pieces, which is amusing.

Also, please stop taking everything the OSH employees say as gospel. They're just another hardware store, and no more likely to know what they're talking about. If you're going to believe any employees, they need to be trained/have experience. If you find a person who does have knowledge/experience, awesome, but don't assume they do. Doesn't mean you can't ask, but still do your research.

Personally, I use Sherwin Williams. I go to their store (not Lowes, though you can get paint chips/samples from Lowes and the the standalone store can use that info. Lowe's doesn't have the really high quality SW paints). Those employees either HAVE been trained, or have had enough exposure to people who know what they're doing that I can believe them. I still double check what they say, but they've never been wrong.

In general, the prep work is THE most important part of any painting project. I wouldn't skip the TSP. If you do, and you really did need to do it, then you may end up starting over at some point.

[jeromedawg]

Brushes: read the labels. They'll tell you what you can use them for. Do not deviate from that, unless you're just using them to apply stripper in which case go to the dollar store because you'll be throwing them out. Possibly in pieces, which is amusing.

Also, please stop taking everything the OSH employees say as gospel. They're just another hardware store, and no more likely to know what they're talking about. If you're going to believe any employees, they need to be trained/have experience. If you find a person who does have knowledge/experience, awesome, but don't assume they do. Doesn't mean you can't ask, but still do your research.

Personally, I use Sherwin Williams. I go to their store (not Lowes, though you can get paint chips/samples from Lowes and the the standalone store can use that info. Lowe's doesn't have the really high quality SW paints). Those employees either HAVE been trained, or have had enough exposure to people who know what they're doing that I can believe them. I still double check what they say, but they've never been wrong.

In general, the prep work is THE most important part of any painting project. I wouldn't skip the TSP. If you do, and you really did need to do it, then you may end up starting over at some point.

Two of the OSH employees I spoke with were knowledgable. One was not, as I was asking about primers and he was basically reading off labels. I've been doing research and this is why I'm asking here and elsewhere. I haven't started the project yet and can always exchange what I've purchased (which is just the primer really) for something else. Where the two who were knowledgable differed was in their opinion of how to remove the existing paint - the first guy I spoke with seemed most knowledgable in that sense, recommending the varnish & stain remover. But TSP is something I'll definitely get.

That said, any recommendations on the best kind of primer for cabinets? Someone on Houzz recommended Shellac-based (so BIN) and using a sprayer all the way. I don't have a spray gun or compressor, and I don't know many people who do have one I could borrow from. It also seems like more prep for even setting up versus painting by hand. The BM Sure Seal I got is latex based and I've read tannins can leak through that, so I may just go return it and get a can of the Zinsser BIN. We have to go back anyway to get a gallon of the paint.

Also, any thoughts on shades of white for a small kitchen and if it's better to go with a 'lighter' shade of white? I think the Super White looks OK but shows more grey undertones in our kitchen especially in lower light. I put the sample on yesterday so as it gets brighter with daylight, I guess we'll see if it's something we really want to do. I'm sure the sheen makes a difference too since right now it's just eggshell/flat and the cabinets will be semi-gloss.

[jeromedawg]

I contacted BM directly - they recommended oil-based if I plan on sanding and removing all the varnish/stain. Otherwise, Stix if I don't want to remove that but perhaps want to just sand down. I think Stix is what Frugalwoods used for theirs. So looks like I'll be returning the Sure Seal primer and either going with Stix or their Fresh Start (if I want to use the varnish & stain remover). I'm guessing varnish & stain remover isn't really necessary though since I am painting over everything anyway. So perhaps hitting with TSP and sanding (or using a liquid sander/deglosser) is the way to go here. And in that case I would want to go with Stix. Then applying the primer and paint with a combination of a nylon polyester brush and short nap roller.

[lthenderson]

I did some kitchen cabinets once without stripper and just sanded things before priming and painting. The paint held up alright on the large flat surfaces but anywhere near the handles where there is higher wear, the paint came off within a couple years. I went back to the method in the link.

It is impossible to recommend colors. Everyone sees things differently. I always just get a sample pint/quart, paint a door and hold it up in various locations. The kitchen owner generally can tell exactly which one they prefer.

[jeromedawg]

I did some kitchen cabinets once without stripper and just sanded things before priming and painting. The paint held up alright on the large flat surfaces but anywhere near the handles where there is higher wear, the paint came off within a couple years. I went back to the method in the link.

It is impossible to recommend colors. Everyone sees things differently. I always just get a sample pint/quart, paint a door and hold it up in various locations. The kitchen owner generally can tell exactly which one they prefer.

Thanks! So you applied the Klean Strip TSP Substitute and then the Klean Strip Easy Sander/Deglosser? Or similar products but more or less the same process?

Also, with the liquid sander/deglosser and TSP, do you generally need *as much* as with the paint you're getting? Or should a  1qt bottle of each be enough to get everything? I measured out about 80sq ft of surface

[jeromedawg]

BTW are you supposed to use rollers for applying primer as well? And if I'm looking at getting a smaller 4.5" roller cover, would I be ok using a 3" roller frame?

[jeromedawg]

Oh man... so I posted the similar question asking for advice on Houzz and this one lady keeps responding, indirectly bashing "non-professional" jobs. Here's her latest schpeal:

"If you don’t do the weeks of proper cleaning, sanding, and priming, you waste the effort for everything. You won’t get good results. And no matter what consumer brand house paint you use, and Advance is OK, it still will not be as durable as professionally sprayed conversion varnish.

Its about Time, or Money. You have to invest one or the other. If you don’t have 7-9K to pay for a pro conversion varnish, you’d better have the 6 months of nights and weekends to do what you can DIY.

Or, don’t go down that road at all. Wood cabinets are trending high in popularity once again. Go with the flow."

I mean, it makes sense and I get it in terms of not doing things "right" but she keeps making additional unnecessary remarks (like "and Advance is OK, it still will not be as durable as professionally sprayed conversion varnish"). And then the whole 6 months comment... it's just strange to me that she's one of the few that pushes professional jobs at DIYers when seemingly so many people out there have DIYed this and are readily willing to give advice and feedback on what they did. I'm not looking for $10k professional job here - just something to freshen up the look of the kitchen without breaking the bank. I guess to some people throwing around $10k is chump change though... and that if you don't get everything "professionally done" it's not worth doing it at all.

[jeromedawg]

I just realized there's another product out there called "BIN Advanced" - has anyone worked with this? I contacted Zinsser to find out more about it and the differences between it and standard BIN. The representative was telling me that the main differences with Bin Advanced are:

1) low VOC/odor
2) Does not require sanding (only a good cleaning of the surface with Simple Green, TSP Substitute, ammonia/water, etc prior to being applied) as this will adhere to existing varnish and other surfaces
3) Cleans up with soap and water (rather than denatured alcohol)

She was reiterating the fact that sanding is not necessary, which is so counterintuitive to what I know and what I've read. So this almost seems too good to be true... has anyone actually used this before and can vouch for all this? It would be nice not having to sand anything lol.