Author Topic: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling  (Read 4299 times)

LibrarIan

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Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« on: January 25, 2021, 08:16:06 AM »
We have an old house in which a previous owner enclosed the porch to create an addition. This porch sits on top of a one-car garage (really a no-car garage because it's barely wide enough for a car even if you folded the side mirrors). They did a terrible job of insulating the whole room and it's freezing all the time. I am planning to redo the whole room including replacing or adding insulation.

An all-around handyman I spoke to recently suggested that, when insulating the floor of the room above the garage, I should really apply the insulation to the ceiling of the garage below. He suggested using foam board insulation and covering the seams with Tuck Tape. I was not friendly enough with this person to have their number or else I'd just reach back out to them. But I have a couple questions about this.

Garage ceiling/room floor is about 144 square feet. The ceiling of the garage is concrete. The flooring in the room will be a wood-look tile.  The house is located in Northern Kentucky. The garage is only used for storage.

  • What R-value would be right for the foam insulation?
  • How would I apply it to the garage ceiling? Could I use construction adhesive and basically glue it up there, would I need to drive some kind of concrete nail through the foam, or do I need to build some kind of framing onto the ceiling?
  • Do I need to leave any space around the perimeter for expansion/contraction?
  • Do I need to apply a plastic vapor barrier to the ceiling first?

uniwelder

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 08:30:40 AM »
Can you put the foam insulation on top of the floor instead? Is there a step down into the room so a 3” height increase wouldn’t cause any problems?

LibrarIan

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 08:57:40 AM »
There is no step down onto the porch. It was a walk-out porch that was only accessible from inside the house. Just for sitting and whatnot.

I asked this guy if I could add the insulation to the floor of the room, which is when he said I should do it to the ceiling of the garage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

lthenderson

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 09:05:57 AM »
Assuming there are exposed floor joists, the best way would be to install the foam on the bottom of the joists so that you have a continuous thermal break or spray foam over the entire joist bays and joist bottoms. But there might be obstacles such as ceiling lights, plumbing, wiring, garage door openers which make this not as desirable. Many people will go ahead and just install strips of foam insulation between the joists. I suppose one could use some sort of adhesive if you have the time. In most applications where I am putting foam overhead, I use screws with plastic washers so that the foam surface is protected from crushing by the screw head. This however depends on what thickness of your subfloor above is, what thickness the foam is and if you can get the proper sized screw that will work without protruding through your subfloor. Then you can go around and caulk any gaps around the edge of the foam.  With foam, it is compressible enough you don't have to worry about expansion and contraction. A vapor barrier on any interior surface is not recommended unless specific conditions are met or you might create issues. For example, if there is a vapor barrier underneath your garage floor slab and one on the outside of the walls and you put one now in the ceiling, any moisture created in the garage such as when you open your door on a humid summer day has no place to go. Even if there are no other vapor barriers and you put one, where does any moisture go from that vapor barrier between condition and unconditioned space go? There is a lot of things to consider and investigate before a recommendation on a vapor barrier can be made.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 10:56:08 AM »
Concrete has a bunch of thermal mass, meaning it takes a lot of energy to change it's temperature. This is great if it's well insulated and it's the temp you want, but it's bad if it's not insulated and is different from the temp you want.

Is the edge of this concrete (the vertical sides) insulated in anyway or just exposed to the elements? Insulating the bottom side of the slab (the garage ceiling) won't do much at all if the slab is exposed to cold air or cold soil on the sides.

So what you want, is for the slab to basically be encased in insulation on all sides except for the side you walk on. That way, the heat from your home might eventually get it warm enough that it holds onto the heat a little bit better. It's probably not going to be perfect, since it's a pretty large heat sink but it's the best shot you've got.

3-4" thick rigid foam panels or spray foam are probably the best bang/buck option without getting crazy. IF they're going to be in contact with the ground, make sure they're rated for ground contact.

LibrarIan

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 12:12:28 PM »
Assuming there are exposed floor joists, the best way would be to install the foam on the bottom of the joists so that you have a continuous thermal break or spray foam over the entire joist bays and joist bottoms. But there might be obstacles such as ceiling lights, plumbing, wiring, garage door openers which make this not as desirable. Many people will go ahead and just install strips of foam insulation between the joists. I suppose one could use some sort of adhesive if you have the time. In most applications where I am putting foam overhead, I use screws with plastic washers so that the foam surface is protected from crushing by the screw head. This however depends on what thickness of your subfloor above is, what thickness the foam is and if you can get the proper sized screw that will work without protruding through your subfloor. Then you can go around and caulk any gaps around the edge of the foam.  With foam, it is compressible enough you don't have to worry about expansion and contraction. A vapor barrier on any interior surface is not recommended unless specific conditions are met or you might create issues. For example, if there is a vapor barrier underneath your garage floor slab and one on the outside of the walls and you put one now in the ceiling, any moisture created in the garage such as when you open your door on a humid summer day has no place to go. Even if there are no other vapor barriers and you put one, where does any moisture go from that vapor barrier between condition and unconditioned space go? There is a lot of things to consider and investigate before a recommendation on a vapor barrier can be made.

@lthenderson - The ceiling of the garage is a flat surface of concrete. No joists or anything like that. The only obstacles would be a mount for a garage door opener and one wire. I am not sure how thick this ceiling is for the purposes of inserting screws, which is why I had wondered about using an adhesive.

Concrete has a bunch of thermal mass, meaning it takes a lot of energy to change it's temperature. This is great if it's well insulated and it's the temp you want, but it's bad if it's not insulated and is different from the temp you want.

Is the edge of this concrete (the vertical sides) insulated in anyway or just exposed to the elements? Insulating the bottom side of the slab (the garage ceiling) won't do much at all if the slab is exposed to cold air or cold soil on the sides.

So what you want, is for the slab to basically be encased in insulation on all sides except for the side you walk on. That way, the heat from your home might eventually get it warm enough that it holds onto the heat a little bit better. It's probably not going to be perfect, since it's a pretty large heat sink but it's the best shot you've got.

3-4" thick rigid foam panels or spray foam are probably the best bang/buck option without getting crazy. IF they're going to be in contact with the ground, make sure they're rated for ground contact.

@Paper Chaser  - The edge of the concrete is not insulated.

bacchi

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 12:48:28 PM »
Adhesive is used to put up rigid foam on the sides of pier & beam crawl spaces. No reason you can't do the same here.

Papa bear

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 12:54:52 PM »
Odd that that the ceiling is concrete... is the garage partially underground? If it’s a good size slab, I would insulate that ceiling with xps foam as well. I would do a minimum of 2” for r-10.  If you can squeeze more, then get up to 3”. 

I would use a construction adhesive made for xps foam board.  Some types of adhesives won’t work as well. 


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LibrarIan

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 01:00:56 PM »
Odd that that the ceiling is concrete... is the garage partially underground? If it’s a good size slab, I would insulate that ceiling with xps foam as well. I would do a minimum of 2” for r-10.  If you can squeeze more, then get up to 3”. 

I would use a construction adhesive made for xps foam board.  Some types of adhesives won’t work as well. 


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I guess the ceiling is concrete because it used to be the base for the exterior porch above (now a bedroom). And yes, it is partially underground (maybe 75% below ground). Looks like Lowes and Home Depot both only carry up to 2 inch thick.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 01:22:17 PM »
A photo would be worth a thousand words, LibrarIan.

What I imagine the garage looks like is a concrete box, with a big hole on one end for the garage door.  If that's an accurate description, then I think that insulating the garage ceiling won't accomplish anything--the heat will just escape out through the sides of that ceiling slab, down the concrete walls, etc.

I think the best option is to lay down a layer of XPS foam on top of the floor above.  Even 1" would make for a big difference.

There's special glue for XPS: Loctite PL 300

Fishindude

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 01:31:58 PM »
I'd spray foam the underside with 1.5" - 2" of material.

Papa bear

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2021, 01:41:35 PM »
Odd that that the ceiling is concrete... is the garage partially underground? If it’s a good size slab, I would insulate that ceiling with xps foam as well. I would do a minimum of 2” for r-10.  If you can squeeze more, then get up to 3”. 

I would use a construction adhesive made for xps foam board.  Some types of adhesives won’t work as well. 


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I guess the ceiling is concrete because it used to be the base for the exterior porch above (now a bedroom). And yes, it is partially underground (maybe 75% below ground). Looks like Lowes and Home Depot both only carry up to 2 inch thick.
2” board + 1” board, stagger the seams. 


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lthenderson

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2021, 02:53:44 PM »
 I somehow missed that your garage ceiling was a single smooth slab of concrete. Yes in that case, I would use adhesive rated for sticking foam sheets to concrete and then tape the seams afterwards. If there is enough clearance between the top of your garage door opener, I would just work around where it mounts to the ceiling. The alternative would to be to make some sort of standoff, out of treated wood, that you screw to the concrete using tapcons and then reattach the opener to it. There really is no compelling reason to do this however other than making it perhaps look more aesthetically pleasing.


lthenderson

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2021, 07:12:48 AM »
Yes, I think adhesive and foam board tacked to the garage ceiling is the way to go in this case. It will also brighten up the interior of your garage since a white surface will reflect more than the dark concrete you have now.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2021, 07:33:48 AM »
Concrete has a bunch of thermal mass, meaning it takes a lot of energy to change it's temperature. This is great if it's well insulated and it's the temp you want, but it's bad if it's not insulated and is different from the temp you want.

Is the edge of this concrete (the vertical sides) insulated in anyway or just exposed to the elements? Insulating the bottom side of the slab (the garage ceiling) won't do much at all if the slab is exposed to cold air or cold soil on the sides.

So what you want, is for the slab to basically be encased in insulation on all sides except for the side you walk on. That way, the heat from your home might eventually get it warm enough that it holds onto the heat a little bit better. It's probably not going to be perfect, since it's a pretty large heat sink but it's the best shot you've got.

3-4" thick rigid foam panels or spray foam are probably the best bang/buck option without getting crazy. IF they're going to be in contact with the ground, make sure they're rated for ground contact.

@Paper Chaser  - The edge of the concrete is not insulated.

Heat is going to seek out the largest temperature difference that it can find. If it's 70 degrees inside your room, 40 degrees inside the garage, and 25 degrees outdoors or in the soil where the side of the slab is exposed, guess where most of your heat will end up? If you insulate the underside of the concrete to reduce that temp difference then it's going to exit through the sides of the slab, or vice versa. The slab really needs to be insulated equally all around for you to notice much benefit.

If you're insulating the sides of the slab with foam panels, make sure they're rated for ground contact. They make some with fancy stucco-like texture if they'll be visible and you'd prefer a more finished look.

They also make insulated subflooring which could really help comfort in the finished room. It's not significant R value, but if you can afford to raise the floor at all it might help make it nicer. When dealing with an existing situation that's not ideal, sometimes it's about making the best you can while tolerating the aspects that can't really be changed, and insulated subfloor might fit that goal.


LibrarIan

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2021, 07:52:03 AM »
@Paper Chaser

Thanks for the breakdown. Am I correct in thinking then that the best course of action would be to go with my original idea (before I spoke to this dude) and insulate beneath the flooring I lay down? That way I separate my room from the concrete it is sitting on? I know you're saying it's best to insulate the whole slab, but that is not really an option. I could insulate the bottom, the front side (visible from the street) and the yard side (I'd have to dig a bit to fully get at it). But the rear portion is completely underground and the house side is, well, against the house itself.


lthenderson

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2021, 08:45:08 AM »
Insulating on either side of the slab will have about equal energy transfer between cold and hot zones. Where insulating underneath the slab (garage roof) has a benefit to you is that the thermal mass of the concrete will now be in your conditioned envelope which will help reduce lots of cycling on your HVAC system. In my opinion, insulating under the slab (garage roof) also gives you the benefit of installing any kind of flooring in the room above. If you chose to insulate on top of the slab (below your flooring), you may have to put an additional layer of subfloor on top of the foam in order to install certain types of flooring like floating wood floors. Check with flooring manufacturer first as they have very specific requirements of subfloor preparation in order to warranty their flooring product.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2021, 09:24:51 AM »
@Paper Chaser

Thanks for the breakdown. Am I correct in thinking then that the best course of action would be to go with my original idea (before I spoke to this dude) and insulate beneath the flooring I lay down? That way I separate my room from the concrete it is sitting on? I know you're saying it's best to insulate the whole slab, but that is not really an option. I could insulate the bottom, the front side (visible from the street) and the yard side (I'd have to dig a bit to fully get at it). But the rear portion is completely underground and the house side is, well, against the house itself.

Leaving the side of the slab  adjacent to the house uninsulated shouldn't be a big deal. It's presumably pretty close to the same temp as the house. If the back face of the slab is under the house or can't be accessed, then it is what it is. It's probably somewhat more temperate than the faces that are more exposed anyway. Do the best you can within reason.

Insulating the slab as much as you can will allow you to add more R value because you have more space for thicker insulation. I would do the bottom of the slab in the garage, the face of the slab on the facade, and the side of the slab that you can easily get to. It wouldn't be hard to get to R10 or better in those places.

Insulating under the floor is a good idea either way in my opinion, as long as it doesn't keep you from having the floor you want. Home Depot sells subflooring with foam insulation attached. The whole system is 1" thick. It's only R3, but it can't hurt. I haven't really shopped around for other options, but there could be better ones out there.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DRICORE-R-Insulated-Subfloor-Panel-1-in-x-2-ft-x-2-ft-Specialty-Panel-FG10003/205505261
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:26:45 AM by Paper Chaser »

Endo1030

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2021, 12:45:34 PM »
You need a fire barrier between foam boards and a garage or living space.  Maybe you should consider rockwool comfortboard and hold it up with furring strips if you do insulate underneath.  Depending how exposed the garage walls are maybe you could just bring that into the conditioned space as well.

Fishindude

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2021, 06:33:08 AM »
You need a fire barrier between foam boards and a garage or living space.  Maybe you should consider rockwool comfortboard and hold it up with furring strips if you do insulate underneath.  Depending how exposed the garage walls are maybe you could just bring that into the conditioned space as well.

You couldn't ask for a better fire barrier than that poured slab floor system.

uniwelder

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2021, 06:50:15 AM »
I think Endo is referring to the garage interior
You need a fire barrier between foam boards and a garage or living space.  Maybe you should consider rockwool comfortboard and hold it up with furring strips if you do insulate underneath.  Depending how exposed the garage walls are maybe you could just bring that into the conditioned space as well.

You couldn't ask for a better fire barrier than that poured slab floor system.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Insulation for a room above a garage with a concrete ceiling
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2021, 07:36:56 AM »
We applied plywood as fire protection to the foam board in our garage mainly so we could attached stuff to it.

 

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