Author Topic: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.  (Read 4587 times)

thurston howell iv

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HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« on: March 02, 2015, 10:53:15 AM »
I have an odd HVAC dilemma. I will be doing more in depth research on it until I understand how it all works. Until that time, I figured I'd post the situation and see if any experts might be able to lend some advice or guidance.

Scenario:
40 year old split level.  Lowest level is garage, side room, and laundry (where the air handler sits), 7 steps up and Second level houses the dining, living, and kitchen (open floor plan), 9 steps up and we have hallway, 3 bedrooms and 2 baths. 1750 sq ft.

When we moved in the 40 year old hvac died so we purchased a new 3 ton 13 seer unit along with a new compressor. The rooms were measured and we were told this is what we needed.

Issue: We keep the t-stat at 64-66 in the winter. It stays cold in the bottom floor, cool in the second main floor and hot upstairs.  I had a blower door test and energy audit due to my crazy electric bill ($250) - Larger homes we've been in 3900 sq ft and 2500 sq ft respectively both averaged around $130 a month in winter months... So there is NO WAY we should be spending that much... (I digress- I'm working on sealing everything as we speak)

My issue in this post is that it's stiflingly hot upstairs and cold in the living room.

Things of note:
1. All of the trunk lines for the HVAC system are in the walls and in the crawlspace.

2. At some point in time, someone cut a huge hole in the master bedroom floor (it sits directly above the handler) When the hvac kicks on that grate seems to suck all the air to the handler

3. All of the returns in each of the bedrooms were blocked with a foam sponge. Once I removed it there was still no air being pulled through the returns.

4. The only return that really works is the one in the master bed room- it is consequently the hottest room in the house.

5. I was told by an hvac guy that I need to cut a hole in the room that houses the handler and run a connecting line to one of the trunks in order to make it work properly. Problem is that this should have been plumbed like that from the beginning.


I would like to even out the temps but I'm having a hard time working this out. HVAC fan is running almost non-stop even though it is set to auto.
Still never seems to get warm downstairs.

I'm wondering if I were to block the current intake and have it pull cold air (from the lowere level where it sits) instead of hot air if it would work better?

Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions? Questions?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 07:03:18 AM by thurston howell iv »

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 11:40:17 AM »
I had a very similar house (1970s split-level). Are any of the vents for your lower levels in the ceiling? We had some that were separated from the ducts, so the space between the lower ceiling and upper floor was probably 95 degrees, but the lower room wasn't getting any heat.

Are the ducts in the crawlspace insulated?

Have you considered getting the ducts cleaned?

How is it that air is getting sucked into the handle from the master bedroom, but you say the only return that works is in the uppermost room?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 11:49:35 AM »
For the sake of testing, go ahead and cover up the big cut-in-the-floor return, and then test the air flow through the others.

Where is your thermostat?
If the HVAC tech says you need to run a connection from your furnace to the trunk(s), what are the trunks connected to now?

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2015, 07:02:41 AM »
In order:

1. Ducts in crawlspace are just "there"- There is no insulation and the returns that were in the walls in the second level (living room level) were all blocked after the open floor plan was set (we removed all the walls). (I checked with the HVAC guy and he said that was fine (the handler still gets plenty of air). The ducting underneath the old return holes was resealed. Some of the return ducting seemed to blow rather than suck. Nevertheless, it's blocked now.  I was hoping to have the crawlspace foamed but wanted to get the ducting situation handled first.

2. I considered the cleaning but I'm still doing some "construction" or destruction so I wanted to wait till all the dirty work was finished. The ducts are dirty but I don't think that is my issue.

3. The air handler is located directly below the master bedroom. Directly above the air handler, someone cut the floor of the master and put a grate. This is the only return that sucks air.  If I pull the grate it spans across 2.5 two open floor joists. I can look down the hollow of the joists. There is no insulation at all. I'm tempted to take the entire floor up and insulate it all. (It's very time consuming and a huge hassle but I don't know what else to do).

4. I covered the big cut-in-the-floor return for testing purposes a while back. Nothing changed. Not even a little bit. (Side note: there is a smaller "return vent" cut into the side of the small room that houses the handler. I assumed it would really be sucking if the main return was blocked. Its suction did not change.

5. T-stat is on the wall on the second level (kitchen,etc)

6. The trunk connection issue seems to be confusing to everyone who looks at them. There are 2 that run side by side. My estimation is that one should be the return and one should vent out. However, no one seems to be able to determine what is what. (And they're the experts!!)  So, I need to tackle this myself.  I don't know why it's so difficult. According to the hvac guy who's company installed the new system, all the rooms were properly set up with returns in upper parts of the walls in each of the rooms. All the ducting is there and in what appears to be decent condition.

Other note:  There is a brick fireplace with a 2 story chimney on the side of the house. This fireplace is located in the lowest level of the house in the side room adjacent to the garage and next to the laundry room that houses the hvac handler. This room sits directly beneath the master bedroom and master bath. The master is fairly large. (the hvac grate is on the inner-most wall of the master and above the handler- the chimney is on the outermost wall.-opposite side of the room)  The blower door test revealed that the fireplace flue does not seal and there there is a huge draft from there. (I keep the room closed as it is currently for storage while we're working).   

When I was working on the master bathroom, I pulled all the floors (they were rotten). I opened the wall as well and discovered that the brick fascia had gaps large enough to see light through. I foamed what I could see but all of this area (near and above the brick fireplace is NOT insulated.) I want to open the wall again and insulate everything but I am not sure about fire hazard. (I don't think I'll be using the fireplace but I would like to keep it functional for future re-sale)

Not sure if all of this is useful or not. Just wanted to paint a more complete picture.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 07:18:09 AM by thurston howell iv »

James

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2015, 07:16:24 AM »
6. The trunk connection issue seems to be confusing to everyone who looks at them. There are 2 that run side by side. My estimation is that one should be the return and one should vent out. However, no one seems to be able to determine what is what. (And they're the experts!!)  So, I need to tackle this myself.  I don't know why it's so difficult. According to the hvac guy who's company installed the new system, all the rooms were properly set up with returns in upper parts of the walls in each of the rooms. All the ducting is there and in what appears to be decent condition.

This is the issue that should be your focus in my opinion. I would get more experts in until someone can both explain to you liking how your current system works, and explain to your liking how to fix it. Seems like tackling it yourself when they can't even figure it out doesn't make much sense. Seems to me you need a better expert.

There are a lot of various fixes and things you can try, from blocking various outlets and returns, adding fans, changing ducting, etc, etc. Certainly nothing wrong with playing with cardboard and masking tap to try and force air to flow through the cold rooms, at least that will help you learn what is going on with the system. But at the end of the day it really sounds like you need a better fix than that if you are spending a ton on heating. Maybe there is a major leak into the roof that is sucking all your warm air upward in the building? Really important to figure out the big picture of what is going on, not just focusing on the HVAC.

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 07:21:49 AM »
Good points. Thermal imaging said it was ducting and rim joists that were leaking (along with windows).

I sealed the windows and was waiting on a quote for foaming the joists. They're dragging their feet so I may have to go it alone.
As for the HVAC, I've had 4 experts from hvac companies come out. Still nothing.... This is getting old.

James

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2015, 07:34:02 AM »
Is there one that seemed to be the most competent and knowledgeable about it? You might want to call them, explain your situation, and ask for a more thorough review of you HVAC system and need for changes. Sometimes they just can't figure it out on the first try, and the second time they can be prepared to spend more time and effort figuring it out. They know it will be a challenge, and might have fresh ideas.

But I totally understand your frustration, I have been there, it's a pain. But don't do half measures when your gut is telling you it could be something major. The extra heating costs, the uneven heating, the lack of air flow, all points to some major problem in the system. I would keep focused on a bigger fix even though very frustrating to keep pushing the experts and experimenting. All it takes is for one expert to finally find the fatal flaw and it would all be worth it.

I would start by sealing the hottest room (both intake and outflow) with cardboard. Try to do whatever it takes to shut down every form of air movement and force the cold rooms to get air circulation. If air is leaking through the roof, then closing upstairs door and vents and sealing the doors with a towel should stop that upward flow, and you can then figure out a permanent fix if that helps.

Edit: Also, don't forget that sealing the crawl space will have a huge effect in preventing upward air flow from leaking out the roof. Any air leakage at the top must come from somewhere, so the tighter it is below the less force on the leaks above.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 07:39:18 AM by James »

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2015, 07:51:55 AM »
Well, the plan had been to foam the crawlspace first and then do both roofs. (Price was $6k! $2k for each spot). I spoke with another foam guy (after the thermal imaging) and he said to skip the roofs as they were not holding any of the hvac stuff and it would be a waste of money and that the insulation was adequate.  So, the crawlspace is on the list.

I also need to make a plan for water intrusion and removal. The place is 40 years old. It looks pretty solid but we do get some moisture and there is no sump pump. I am told it's easy to diy so maybe this summer I'll look into it. Right now it's not a major issue.

I did have one hvac guy offer some alternative suggestions- even said he'd come and help me work on it but our schedules have not cooperated. My concern is that he wanted to cut a hole into the room that houses the hvac. The wall he wants to cut opens into the crawlspace. He suggested running "new" duct work to tie into the old duct work to force the handler to suck from the existing returns.  While that sounds fine in theory, my question is why we would need to do that if the ducts were properly set up in the first place? How is a trunk disconnected? Why would it be? 

I've been on a rampage sealing windows, frames (I pulled a few frame trim pieces and re-sealed them), towels under doors, you name it. While it is ideal to do this while it's cold out as it's easier to find the bad spots, it sure is tiring. I prefer working in warm weather.

My biggest issue is that I want the house to be at least semi-efficient while I live there. However, I don't plan on staying too long- 2-3 years hopefully.
So, I don't want to go too crazy with the expense.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2015, 09:15:35 AM »
Wait a second--your trunk lines to the second level (kitchen, etc) are connected to the registers on one end, but not connected to anything at the other end!?  What were they connected to before?  And what is your current furnace connected to, then?

James

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2015, 09:21:11 AM »
Due to your plans for the house, I absolutely agree you shouldn't spend too much money on upgrades or repairs. You are correct that foaming the roof wouldn't save much if you have decent attic insulation, just seal any air leaks like you are doing. But I do think foaming to seal under the crawl space can be huge on these old drafty houses so I like that plan if you can sort out the ducting first.

I would figure out a way to get the guy back who had what sounded like a solid plan. He should be able to answer your questions about why it would be needed, and obviously if he things there is something disconnected somewhere maybe it needs to be found instead or along with whatever fix he suggests. But it's really hard to understand your system without actually seeing it, and even then if experts can't then we don't stand much of a chance.


You might want to turn the HVAC down and use a space heater in important areas for a while, and see if that actually decreases you heating costs since it wouldn't overheat some parts of the house and can be better controlled. Just another idea in your big list of ideas... :)

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2015, 12:09:57 PM »
Sometimes I'm letting the house cool to high 50's low 60's (I turn off the hvac during the days I'm working to prevent dust/fume circulation) but it's been very cold here so I don't want to cause damage (freezing pipes, etc). Tried the space heater. It pulled too many amps and if I'd plug something else that drew too much I'd blow breakers. Even replaced all the breakers to make sure that there would be no issues (electrician recommended this. It was relatively cheap so it wasn't a big deal)

I'll be tracking down the hvac guy to see if he can assist me. If not, I'll wing it and figure it out myself. Worst I can do is find out how many ways it won't work. LOL

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 05:29:10 AM »
zolotiyeruki: Sorry, I missed your post. The hvac sits in a room and at the top of the unit there is some ducting that appears to feed the registers through out the house. We do get heat.

The returns, however, do not seem to be connected to anything. In fact it appears that they have never been connected properly. Not really sure how one gets a C.O. without the hvac properly hooked up but this is a 40 year old house so I have no idea.

I will need to do some more investigating and figure it out. With help or without. Never stopped me before. LOL
I really just want to know why one room is so hot while the second floor is cool. (I know heat rises) but, this is crazy. Go down 9 steps and you go down 10* or better? Doesn't make sense to me.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 07:21:16 AM »
I wonder if the supply registers on the lower levels are blocked, either with something in the duct, or via dampers in the supply line or trunk.  If the return trunk is not connected to your HVAC unit, where is the HVAC unit drawing air from?  Just from the room it's in?  If that's the case, then putting a vent in the door would only serve to further reduce air being returned from the middle level.

thurston howell iv

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Re: HVAC Experts? Please come inside.
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2015, 08:27:31 AM »
Sorry for slow response, I don't get email updates for some reason.

Anyway, I think the returns are blocked or just simply not connected.

The giant "return" hole in the floor of the master bedroom is it's main source of air. When I blocked the grate with cardboard I forgot that it would still pull from inside the floor joists... I'm thinking of blocking it completely and then slowly testing ways to re-connect the existing trucks. If they do not cooperate, I'll look into re-doing it myself - properly or leaving well enough alone as I do not plan to live in the house for more than a few years and don't want to dump a ton of cash into it.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!