Author Topic: How hard to pour concrete myself?  (Read 19486 times)

Marvel2017

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How hard to pour concrete myself?
« on: March 16, 2015, 07:51:18 AM »
I've called SIX concrete guys to add some additional driveway to an existing driveway (about 8' by 12' additional) and also pour a 8'X24' (4inch thick) pad for a storage shed. NONE of the six have shown up to give me a quote, seems like they have enough business these days I guess. I'm at the point of trying to figure out if I can do this myself because I need it done. I already have to rent a small bobcat to dig out some other things so I'll have the equipment to dig and wood/levels/etc to form it out. There is a concrete mixing facility about 1/4 mile from the house. I guess I need to call around and see if they would deliver to me, but any tips/gotchas? The pad I'm not too worried about, my plan was to just dig out maybe 6 inches, but two inches of gravel, throw in some wire mesh reinforcement and then pour four inches. The driveway would be a little trickier I suppose since I have to park a car on it and it would be subject to more load than the shed pad.

ncornilsen

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 08:17:28 AM »
4" with mesh would hold a car. You will need about 2.75 yards for this... way to much to mix by hand. You may be able to rent a cart, and get it 1 yard at a time. In that case, I recommend forming secions that can be filled with 1 yard. By the time you get back with the next load, you ought to be able to pull the divider form, create a control joint at the intersection, and pour the next section.

MetalCap

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2015, 09:49:31 AM »
The full amount of concrete needed is about 3.5 cy so you'd pay a short batch fee either way.  If thats the case, it might be worth it to do a 6" pad for peace of mind.  4" can be too thin with frost etc, depending where you're located.  Also the charge for a short truck (less than 10 cy) is the same from most suppliers.

As for help, plenty of guys at home depot have and can work concrete.  You can order a truck on a slow saturday from them (call on Thursday to find out how the batch plant is looking).  Have everything framed up and ready to rock and roll and go for it.

Either have wheelbarrows or a path for the truck to back up to the pour and come rakes and trowels.  Nothing major needed, just plan it out BEFORE the truck gets there.

hokiegb

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 10:06:11 AM »
Placing concrete is somewhat labor intensive, so definitely get some day help. Probably you + 3 guys would knock it out in a few hours.

For tools: rakes, trowels, shovels and a 10-ft long 2x4 as straight as you can find to straightedge the concrete as you're finishing it. Basically just place the 2x4 on top of the forms stretching across the wet concrete and pull it down to knock off any high spots and show you any low spots in the concrete.

One thing - make sure to check on permits required in your local area before you start. Most areas require a building permit for driveways and foundations (shed slab pad would be considered a foundation). Not knowing where you live I'm not sure how code enforcement is, but they're normally much nicer to deal with BEFORE you start doing something without permits. They might also require a zoning review to make sure you're not building within the setbacks from the property line. All of the information you need should be available online or with a few phone calls.

trailrated

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2015, 10:42:23 AM »
I work in the industry as a dispatcher for a concrete company, just a heads up I would order a half yard more just to be safe. If you run a little bit short you are just going to screw yourself. Order 4 yards to complete everything you posted about. Most companies will give you a set time to unload the truck (for us you have 5 minutes per yard) once that time is up you are paying an additional $2/minute to keep the truck.

That being said if you are pouring the pad for the shed in the back yard you might want to look into getting a pump out there to pump the concrete. You might "lose" a little bit of the concrete in the lines of the pump so that is why you should order a little over to be safe. If you are just using a wheelbarrow keep in mind you have about 2 and a half yards going to the back yard... rule of thumb each yard is roughly 20 trips with a wheelbarrow which means you are definitely going to run into some stand by time making 50 trips with a wheelbarrow to the back yard.

If this is your first time trying to DIY I highly recommend getting some retarder in the load, it should only be a few more dollars per yard and will give you extra time to work with the concrete before it sets up on you. Better to do it right than to do it cheap and have an eye sore of a driveway for life.

Use the same mix on the same load for both sections. If you go with a 2500PSI mix you should be fine unless you are planning on parking an army tank on it. Make sure to wait to park on it after the pour, it should hit its max strength by 28 days, not to say you have to wait an entire month to utilize it.

If you have any other questions I will be following the thread.

Jack

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 10:54:49 AM »
How much skill is involved in finishing the concrete (assuming an outdoor/slip-resistant finish, as opposed to a smooth interior floor finish)? Are the necessary tools (float, etc.) readily available to rent?

I've thought about DIYing a concrete driveway, but the possibility of screwing it up and having several tons of rock to chisel back out scares the crap out of me.

trailrated

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2015, 01:13:53 PM »
How much skill is involved in finishing the concrete (assuming an outdoor/slip-resistant finish, as opposed to a smooth interior

I am sure many people look and figure it is easy and "anyone" can do it but it truly is an art form that requires a lot of skill to do it well. If you do not place joints in the right places or deep enough you will have visible cracking. If you start troweling before the bleed water comes out you are going to have discoloration and small surface cracks (does not affect the strength of the concrete it just doesn't look good. If you trowel too late or "hard trowel" you could get "burns" or dark spots on the concrete.

As far as the tools go you should be able to rent them from a home depot or similar type store. If you want the slip-resistant finish you just lightly go over the smoothed out concrete with a broom for a "broom finish" which adds some texture. If you do go that route DO NOT spray the broom with water. I have seen it so many times when people do that and then they wonder why they have all these little specks of discoloration.

I am sure most people could DIY, it is just a matter of doing it well where it looks good that is tricky. Also if you do this wear gloves and if you get residue on you, be sure to wash it off right away. You will notice your skin will be dried out use a lot of moisturizer. If you leave it on you without washing it off you risk getting chemical burns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsYOcxVUz0w

jba302

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2015, 04:41:24 PM »

I am sure many people look and figure it is easy and "anyone" can do it but it truly is an art form that requires a lot of skill to do it well.


This guy has some good advice. My father is a concrete guy, and I've done a few helper roles on some pours. He talks about concrete almost like an advanced form of drywall. It's significantly heavier, harder to flatten, and hell to fix since the errors tend to be on the permanent side of things. Personally I would leave a driveway to a finisher since it's visible. The shed you could probably handle on your own, but with your plan you might as well set the forms and let someone else pour and finish it.

Rural

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2015, 07:18:01 PM »
Not trying to be rude here; genuinely asking. Why on earth would you care what a driveway looks like? Cars will be driving on it, so no raised sharp areas that might damage tires, I get that. But discoloration? Under a car/ exposed to the elements? Why worry?

bzzzt

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2015, 10:40:13 PM »
Why worry?

Curb appeal/resale value.

Concrete can be great or it can be a pain. The 40-50 year old concrete patio behind my house is full of cracks and needs to be torn out. Part of me wants to build a deck, but if we ever move we're planning on renting out this house. Concrete would be a lot less maintenance, but the upfront cost is higher even with a friend doing the placing/finishing. Decisions, decisions...

Spork

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2015, 08:01:07 AM »
Not trying to be rude here; genuinely asking. Why on earth would you care what a driveway looks like? Cars will be driving on it, so no raised sharp areas that might damage tires, I get that. But discoloration? Under a car/ exposed to the elements? Why worry?

Maybe this isn't "looks" but function... my worry would be ponding of water and other proper drainage.  That's both a pain in the ass (puddles to walk through) and can make slick spots (mud or mossy stuff).  We had a nice patio on our previous house that collected water and funneled it right towards the house.  Worse: we paid someone that supposedly knew what he was doing to put it in and had to pay someone else to jackhammer it out and replace it.

I've also seen concrete delaminate where too much cream was brought to the top. (I presume that's the reason... not a concrete guy). 

I'll do small areas... and I've helped friends do large areas (where THEY were responsible for finishing).   It does take several people to hump that concrete and at least one (maybe more) dedicated to getting it flat, bubble free and finished.

savman

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2015, 07:30:10 PM »
Since both pours are only 8' wide and it's only 4 yards total it could be done by a DIY'r. It depends on how hard you can work and how much general diy experience you have. BTW there is more to worry about than just the appearance if you don't know what you are doing. As mentioned water is one thing, but you can also seriously affect the strength of the concrete if you don't know what you are doing. 

Having said that by the time you rent the tools necessary to do it (Assuming you have nothing; a bull float, bull float handle, a hand float, an edger, and a broom) it's going to get close on cost benefit of diy. If you knew what you were doing, and again b/c it's only 8' wide, you could fashion a bull float out of wood and use a nice sturdy broom handle; ditto on the hand float. All you would really need to buy is an edger and a broom. (I used horse hair brooms, but you will want something stiffer as your job will have lots of imperfections) You still wouldn't get the best result with makeshift tools, but plenty good for what you are doing.

If you are having a hard time finding a finisher, and btw that's what you are looking for finishers - not concrete guys - call a couple concrete plants and ask to speak to the salesman. Tell him you have a project and need 4 yards for exterior concrete 3000 psi and could he recommend a crew of finishers. Tell the Billy Bob at the plant gave you their number and what would they charge to form and broom finish two pads of X square feet. You will probably be looking at a minimum fee of 500 dollars or so; so I would let the form it as well. It will cost the same either way. If it were more you could form it yourself and save some money if you had spare lumber. 

Scratch the recommendation of a pump truck. A.) they are really expensive, and B.) you have a Bobcat on site; just coordinate the pour with when the tractor will be on site and load the bucket of the skid steer with concrete. Spray the bucket and surrounding areas of the machine with water (or diesel if you are really paranoid) before you load the bucket with concrete. Once you are through pouring, spray everything off thoroughly. With amount of time you will have concrete on the machine it will wash off easily. Be warned: if you don't wash it off the rental place will bring down the thunder on your wallet if you bring back a machine with cured concrete splatter all over it. You DO NOT want to wheel barrow 4 yards of concrete. 

Also, the 2 inches of gravel under the shed is completely useless. It won't do anything. I would also nix the wire. 3000 psi concrete on a well prepared base (if you have any fill, or doubts about the integrity of your sub-grade, fill the Bobcat's front bucket as full as you can with dirt or rock and roll back and forth to compact the earth. If the ground moves a lot you have another issue, but otherwise that will be plenty of compaction for what you are doing.) is more than enough to handle a regular vehicle load and any load the shed will have.  If you are nervous, get fiber reinforcement from the plant. At least then it is idiot proof on the install. The vast majority of wire reinforcement is improperly installed and consequently worthless. I have poured 1000's of yards of actual roads with zero reinforcement and they are just fine. Most people don't use wire unless it specified by an architect/government. If you need strength, rebar on stands is the way to go AINEC. 

Marvel2017

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2015, 09:38:37 AM »
One of the concrete guys (out of six I contacted) got back to me and quoted $3,000. So there are actually TWO major concrete mix plants within a 1/4 mile of our house so I've sent their sales guys emails using the information given here so I'll give an update if I hear back.

JLee

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2015, 10:00:50 AM »
I had a similar decision, but a much larger pour (triangle shape going from 3ft wide to ~20ft wide, and about 60ft long). I elected to pay someone rather than risk screwing it up myself. They removed a lot of dirt and gave it the proper slope away from my house, and also put in 8" deep 2'x4' rebar-reinforced footers for my future lift install. Total was a touch over $6k. More than I wanted to spend, but it came out great and I am comfortable parking heavy vehicles on it. I was also picky with surface finish due to rolling toolboxes, floor jacks, etc.  :)

Marvel2017

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2015, 11:43:34 AM »
Sales guys got back to me. Looks like I can get it delivered at around $95/yd. They also gave me the names of about 7 concrete finishers - thanks for the tips! I'll update when I get done.

Marvel2017

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2015, 12:20:37 PM »
So do I have this right? The guy who gave me a $3,000 quote. For 4 yards of concrete. I'm assuming if I can buy at $90/yd he probably gets a better price, but let's say $90/yd. SO that's $500 for delivered concrete. Assuming he pays a crew $30/hr for 3 guys, who he probably doesn't have on a payroll so no additional cost. That's $90/hr for we'll say for this simple job takes them 3 hours to form and pour/smooth the concrete. Labor for guys $270. We'll say the equipment cost "per job" is $200 (Bobcat can be rented for this, but he probably owns his own so true cost should be lower). So that's
$500 concrete
$270 labor
$200 equipment

$970, we'll round to $1,000 expense to do the job. So he's looking to make about $2,000 for organizing this job? Am I doing my math wrong? Worst case he's netting $1,000 for 5 hours of work, am I missing something here?

JLee

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2015, 12:25:59 PM »
So do I have this right? The guy who gave me a $3,000 quote. For 4 yards of concrete. I'm assuming if I can buy at $90/yd he probably gets a better price, but let's say $90/yd. SO that's $500 for delivered concrete. Assuming he pays a crew $30/hr for 3 guys, who he probably doesn't have on a payroll so no additional cost. That's $90/hr for we'll say for this simple job takes them 3 hours to form and pour/smooth the concrete. Labor for guys $270. We'll say the equipment cost "per job" is $200 (Bobcat can be rented for this, but he probably owns his own so true cost should be lower). So that's
$500 concrete
$270 labor
$200 equipment

$970, we'll round to $1,000 expense to do the job. So he's looking to make about $2,000 for organizing this job? Am I doing my math wrong? Worst case he's netting $1,000 for 5 hours of work, am I missing something here?

They're going to prep, set up forms, pour, finish, pack up and leave in three hours?

That's impressive.

I would get more quotes, though. I was at $6200 but I believe I had 19 yards. :P

Marvel2017

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2015, 12:35:52 PM »
Yeah, for this job I think 3 hours is reasonable because half of one pad is already dug out and the larger of the two pads is on flat ground and he said they would just "scrape the top". I'm assuming no mesh or wire/rebar, etc) Ok, let's say 5 hours then. I'm just trying to understand the economics because if I can charge $3,000 for a simple job like mine and only have a days work and $1,500 cost into it then I would love to net $1,500 for one job and a day of work. I've been getting some crazy high quotes for things and have heard subcontractors are kicking up prices because of the good local economy so I'm curious if maybe I can start doing some side businesses as supplemental income.

Part of the problem I guess is that we live in an expensive area (wasn't when we bought the house) and feel like we always get the "rich guy" price  haha
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 12:49:30 PM by utgrad »

savman

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2015, 05:21:26 PM »
Finishers finish concrete. That's what they do. If you are looking for someone to grade it, lay it out, and pour it you will pay for the convenience of dealing with a one stop shop. I thought you said you were planning on renting a Bobcat and grading for the shed yourself? 

When I said 500 dollars or so; that's what I could get some finishers to do that sized job. Even if you can't get that price, you should be looking at 750 max for form and finish.  Add in 5 or 600 for the concrete (You should have inquired if there is a minimum load fee.  If you can get it delivered for 95/yd I will be shocked if you aren't charged a minimum load fee.)  Rental of a Bobcat will cost you around 300 to 500 depending on the delivery fees. All in all you are looking at maybe 1500 +- 200. The balance is what you can expect to pay for the convenience of dealing with a single person. 

bzzzt

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2015, 09:46:34 PM »
Not sure how it rolls in Texas but (as a tradesman) if I have to pick up a tool, I'm getting a 4-hour minimum. If times are good, you're paying me for the day. Also, I don't start my truck for $30/hr.

You don't keep good tradesman around for very long paying them partial days if the economy is good. Why would I work for you for 3 hours when I can get 8-12hr days with someone else? Just adding a little perspective to your "but it'll only take 3 hours."

Mr One Wheel Drive

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2015, 11:48:44 PM »
I did my own concrete work, I think that you should do it. It's very satisfying. Mine was a garage pad, 12'x20' and 6" thick.
Get the fibers mixed into the concrete and forget the wire mesh it's not worth the hassle

After wash your hands with vinegar it will neutralise the caustic effect of the concrete and then wash your hands well. Wear chemical resistant gloves if your hands are sensitive.

Have lots of help. Expect that if you are levelling out the concrete that you won't have time to operate the wheelbarrow.

hokiegb

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2015, 06:07:33 AM »
Assuming the guy who quoted you is a legitimate contractor, he has a lot of other expenses that you're not accounting for. He has to carry insurance, pay contractor's licensing fees, business license fees, payroll taxes on his guys, unemployment tax, income tax, overhead (phones, office expenses, computer, etc.)... the list goes on. And yes, he is planning on making a profit, that's why he is in business. But the profit is by no means the entire difference between the price he quoted and concrete cost + crew of guys cost.

That being said, I'm sure you can do it for less. You pretty much always can, because you don't have to pay all of the expenses listed above. The question is, do you have the time, energy and willpower to deal with doing it yourself? Because coordinating concrete pours can be a royal PITA. I can't count the number of times I've had the dispatcher at the plant (10 minutes from the jobsite) tell me "the truck is on the way" and not see the truck for an hour. Or had the concrete truck sitting there and the finishers haven't shown up yet. Or the placing equipment breaks down mid-pour.

And definitely agree with most of the suggestions above: order at least 1/2 yard extra (more if the excavation is uneven) because coming up a few cubic feet short on a pour really sucks. Use the bobcat bucket to move the concrete, just make sure you clean the hell out of it as soon as you get done placing the concrete in the forms. Like, you should be cleaning the bobcat bucket while you're still finishing the concrete. And wear gloves + wash off any concrete you get on your skin immediately - chemical burns are no joke.

trailrated

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Re: How hard to pour concrete myself?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2015, 11:08:08 AM »
It is crazy to see how much cost varies by location. Our raw materials are way more expensive... for 4 yards of concrete out here you would be looking at roughly 165/yd.

Make sure they quote they gave you includes a "short load" price. We charge more per yard on a sliding scale for anything under 7 yards. Pretty much industry standard because regardless of how much concrete you carry you still have to pay the driver the same, fuel costs are pretty much the same etc.