Help me fix my home improvement screwup!

[The Hin]

Years ago, I made the ill-fated decision to remove the metal plate in the upstairs hallway ceiling in my house - there was just a bare bulb hanging from it and the whole setup looked janky. I thought I could pull out the circular plate, and install a new light fixture to what I assume is the junction box above the plate. I'm not a particularly handy person but I figured I could manage this. Reader: I failed.

Long story short, I tried to remove the metal plate and found the plate was stuck by putty to the  ceiling material (I think it's plaster rather than drywall?). Then I thought "hey no biggie, I'll just use a knife, chip around the edge and then I can take out the plate. I made it about halfway around the circumference and the plaster kept crumbling, so I gave up. I'll attach a close-up photo of the metal plate in question with the damage incurred by my recklessness. 

It's been like this now for several years, and I'm tired of looking at it. Question is, what to do? I think I could still just install a properly-size light fixture onto the plate, assuming I could find something that matches the size of the plate, right? (The plate is 6 inches wide.) Ideally I would remove the plate entirely so I could install something new, but I think that'd just cause too much damage. Thoughts? 

[Sibley]

I wouldn't assume there is a junction box behind it. There wouldn't have been in my house at least!

How's your patching? Because the best option in my mind is just get the plate out, do all the damage, attach a new junction box/extension to the existing box, then patch around it (don't touch the actual box though). Once patched, you'd have a box ready to mount a new light to.

[BudgetSlasher]

I agree with Sibley do not assume there is a real box behind that.

Looking at is the set screws on the side make me think the metal pan is the base to a light fixture (the screws are meant to hold on a glass dome). The sets of keyhole slots in the dish are meant to anchor to two different sizes of electrical boxes ... the fact that there are no screws makes me wonder how it is attached.

The wiring appears to be that of a standard light fixture of the kind I described above, but the light socket has been knocked loose from its post (the little metal tab near where the wires come through).

Do not install a light on a light. The old light fixture should be removed.

If I were in your position the first thing I would do is use the nearby attic access to go up and assess what is behind the light fixture (assuming relatively easy access).

If there is not a junction box you will need to install one. There are probably several options of how that could be done.

If there is a box you seem to want to fix the appearance of the light. You can either remove of the current light fixture doing as little additional damage as possible and repair the plaster (I have no experience with plaster work, my FIL has done plenty because he likes the look in his house better than drywall). If you'd rather not trust your drywall still they make items called "ceiling medallions" that can be used to cover up damaged ceilings (or holes from former can lights) in various sizes, while still allowing access to the box.

[sonofsven]

To remove the light fixture ("metal plate") remove the two screws from the center and then un do the wire connections (wire nuts, most likely) that you will find behind them.
It's possible there is no box behind the fixture and the two screws are embedded into a wood block or equivalent.
Remember even if you turn the light switch off it's possible that there still might be hot wires in the box.
Once the fixture is removed break off all the crumbly bits and use a quick set product like 15 minute mud (essentially this a powder that you mix with water to make a fast setting drywall compound).
If the ceiling is bad enough you might need to add screws with washers and/or nylon mesh to reinforce it, then coat over the top.
There's a part brojen/missing on the fixture that holds the bulb socket to the fixture, you can sometimes find this part at a good hardware store, or just buy a new fixture.

[BudgetSlasher]

To remove the light fixture ("metal plate") remove the two screws from the center and then un do the wire connections (wire nuts, most likely) that you will find behind them.
It's possible there is no box behind the fixture and the two screws are embedded into a wood block or equivalent.
Remember even if you turn the light switch off it's possible that there still might be hot wires in the box.
Once the fixture is removed break off all the crumbly bits and use a quick set product like 15 minute mud (essentially this a powder that you mix with water to make a fast setting drywall compound).
If the ceiling is bad enough you might need to add screws with washers and/or nylon mesh to reinforce it, then coat over the top.
There's a part brojen/missing on the fixture that holds the bulb socket to the fixture, you can sometimes find this part at a good hardware store, or just buy a new fixture.

I am not sure that there are screws, it looks like it might be retained by the screw in the center. If so that means it should be mounted to a crossbar ... which should be mounted to a box. But that is a lot of shoulds.

I personally would stay away from 15 minute mud, especially if you they have never done this kind of work before toward something with a longer open time ... I've had to "fix" drywall work that was poorly done by prior occupants using hot mud and it is a major PIA once it has set. The OP might be better server with a light-weight mud.

[lthenderson]

To me that looks like a base for a globe type light fixture. The two screws holding it to the junction box behind (assuming there is one) should be in two of the keyhole slots. Hard to tell from the picture but it looks like you already loosened those or removed them. The three "set screws" along the outside edge are to hold the globe in place to prevent rattling.  The center "screw" is usually a threaded hollow rod that allows you to thread the wire through and to provide something to hold the globe in place. Usually these just poke up into the junction box behind them and don't physically hold that base to the junction box. You have enough crumbled away you should be able to look up into the cracks with a light and verify if there is a junction box or only wood behind there.

If their is a junction box, I'm guessing putting a putty knife between the old light base and the junction box will be enough to set it free. My money is that there isn't any junction box. In that case, you will have to buy a pancake type junction box to put in it's place. Depending on what type of light fixture you get, the new base may be large enough diameter to cover up the destroyed edges of the hole. I would buy the light fixture you want first and measure how much the base will cover. If it will cover it all up, just attach the new light and call it a day. If it won't, then I would repair it using some mesh reinforcement tape and lightweight drywall compound, let it set up overnight. Paint, and then attach the new light.

[Paper Chaser]

Would you be ok with a recessed, "Can" light or does it need to be a more traditional light fixture of some sort? There are lots of good options for remodel installation of recessed lighting that wouldn't require any kind of box to be installed in the ceiling.

[The Hin]

Thanks for the replies, folks! 

To begin with - yes, what's currently in place is definitely the base for a globe-type light fixture. I suppose the simplest option (aside from just leaving things the way they are) is to find a glass globe that fits the size of the fixture and tighten the three "set screws" to hold it in. Here's a link to one that would fit, for instance. https://smile.amazon.com/6-Inch-Drum-Shade-Replacement-Glass/dp/B00106EWFW

As far as what's going on in the ceiling above the base: I went up into the attic and tried to assess what it looks like above the fixture; that spot is very tight and behind several ducts so the best I could do was eyeball it from a few feet away. It looked like the wires go down through a block of wood. I suspect that the light fixture may simply be affixed to a block of wood, with no junction box above. Much of the electrical work in this house looks shoddy to me, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's no junction box. There are no screws coming down through any of the four keyhole slots (you can see something red sticking down into the keyhole of one of the four, but I don't know what that is and it's not anchoring anything). I am actually not sure how the fixture is being held up - hopefully by more than just the remaining ceiling putty. 

Given the height of the ceiling in the hallway, I am not looking to hang a pendant light or something like that... I'd be fine with a recessed light, or something flush (or semi-flush) to the ceiling. If there's a style of cover (glass globe or otherwise) that i could put over the existing fixture that would be wide enough to make the existing cracks around the base less visible that'd be great. 

Would it work to get, say, a paper pendant lamp shade and use the set screws on the perimeter to hold it in place? 

[lthenderson]

I would guess it was just attached to a block of wood. Before standards came along, that was pretty common.

I suppose you could find a light that would use the existing set screws on the base but I'm guessing that might be a lot of trial and error to find one of the exact right dimensions. Really the proper way to do it and allow you to hang any light fixture you want there would be to buy a pancake junction box and screw it to the block the current one is adhered too.

https://www.amazon.com/Westinghouse-Lighting-0103611-Saf-T-Pan-2-Inch/dp/B0046ZTGMI/

Then once  could put a low profile LED light with a base large enough to cover up the damaged ceiling. From your description of looking from above, doesn't sound like there is anywhere near enough room for recessed lighting.

https://www.amazon.com/Lighting-Equivalent-Kitchens-Stairwells-Bedrooms-etc/dp/B07ZTHPXCD

[Model96]

The fixture has obviously been glued to the ceiling if there are no screws in the keyhole slots.
As a result your best option is to remove the fitting without removing a plate sized chunk of ceiling with it!
I would isolate the power to that light, and use a steel spatula inserted between the ceiling and the fitting to break the bond. The aim is to keep as much ceiling intact as possible so you can patch it, or at least be there behind the larger light fitting you install to cover the whole mess!

[The Hin]

OK so I think this is my plan:
1) flip the breaker powering that light, remove the hanging light bulb from the wiring, chip away the putty around the old fixture and pry it loose from the board above (assuming it's glued on)
2) install a junction box by screwing it to the board above (why a pancake style rather than a square one? I definitely need a junction box that's as shallow/thin as possible, I think there's not much room in the ceiling cavity to work with. I think this one is good choice - https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Raco-8292-2-Inch-Knockout-Ceiling/dp/B005SQNMRO/ but it's a 25-pack so... maybe I should just go to Lowe's)
3) install a light fixture onto the junction box (thinking something like this one - https://www.amazon.com/Hykolity-Equivalent-Dimmable-Flushmount-Restroom/dp/B07V9M6FFN/)

I am somewhat concerned that the junction box itself would protrude down below the level of the plaster ceiling; if that occurs then it won't be possible to flush-mount the light.

[BudgetSlasher]

OK so I think this is my plan:
1) flip the breaker powering that light, remove the hanging light bulb from the wiring, chip away the putty around the old fixture and pry it loose from the board above (assuming it's glued on)
2) install a junction box by screwing it to the board above (why a pancake style rather than a square one? I definitely need a junction box that's as shallow/thin as possible, I think there's not much room in the ceiling cavity to work with. I think this one is good choice - https://www.amazon.com/Hubbell-Raco-8292-2-Inch-Knockout-Ceiling/dp/B005SQNMRO/ but it's a 25-pack so... maybe I should just go to Lowe's)

Yes definitely go to lowe's or HD (or do curbside) amazon is usually markedly more expensive for the 1 counts of this kind of thig.

As for why a pancake, I have only heard pancake used in the context of the shallow boxes and I have only seen the shallow boxes in the round shape. in the case of some small light fixtures the square box might stick out from under the light.

3) install a light fixture onto the junction box (thinking something like this one - https://www.amazon.com/Hykolity-Equivalent-Dimmable-Flushmount-Restroom/dp/B07V9M6FFN/)

I am somewhat concerned that the junction box itself would protrude down below the level of the plaster ceiling; if that occurs then it won't be possible to flush-mount the light.

Every pancake box I have used is flush with 1/2 drywall, so I doubt you will have a problem. Even a "flush mount" light like the one you linked has a bit of a hollow space against the ceiling ... so of the box is not perfectly flush it will still be concealed by that recess. If the box protrudes too far, you could move the board that it is mounted to; but, I don't expect that it will be an issue based on what you have told us.

One important thing: the number of conductors allowed in an electrical box is a function of the size of the wires and the volume of the box. If the light is not the end of the circuit or there are other wires at that location that need to be in the new box then a pancake box will not be big enough to meet code.

[The Hin]

Update! I removed the fixture from the ceiling. Turns out it was attached to a small pancake-style junction box (!) by a center post attached to a small (3.5 inch diameter) round junction box.

I am now ready to move on to purchasing and installing a new light fixture. The question is, do I need to try to find a fixture that will work specifically with the mounting screw holes available with the existing junction box? The holes on the perimeter of the junction box are about 2.75 inches apart. Am I right in thinking that I'd need to find a new fixture that can attach to mounting screws 2.75 inches apart? How would I even know which fixtures would qualify?

[Model96]

I would get a nice lightweight LED flushmount or oyster light, big enough to cover those scars and holes, and light enough to just screw to the ceiling plaster (which looks to be double thickness)

[lthenderson]

3.5" is the standard these days so to mount to an old style pancake box with 2.75" center, you will have to modify the strap that comes with the kit, i.e. probably drill a new hole at the minimum, and hang your new light slightly off center as a result of one of the 3.5" holes now being outside the old box. Some are more easily modified with others. For me, the proper thing having come this far is to replace the old box with a new regulation sized one and buy whatever light you desire.

[The Hin]

Success!!!

I bought an LED flushmount and managed to install it on the old 3.5 inch pancake junction box hiding up in the ceiling. The diameter of the fixture covers all the scars and holes, and the lighting situation in that hallway has gone from 'CFL bulb hanging from wires around a fixtures ringed by broken bits of plaster' to 'Sure, that looks pretty nice and [flips switch] HOLY CRAP THAT'S A BRIGHT LIGHT!'.

The only real installation issue I had to solve was that with the old junction box up behind two layers of plaster, the center threaded bolt / post intended to connect the fixture to the strap wasn't long enough. Thankfully the old fixture also used a center bolt assembly of nearly identical dimensions so I was able to use parts of both assemblies to attach the new fixture to the old junction box.

Thanks again to everyone for the help and encouragement. Posting about it here was definitely the kick in the pants I needed to actually figure out what needed to happen (with copious help from the responses here) and follow through.

Technical question for future reference: is there an easy way to consistently ensure that photos posted here display with the proper orientation? Seems that the preview-sized photos are basically always turned 90 or 180 degrees but if you click to enlarge they turn to orient properly.

[Model96]

Looks great!
The new LED technology sure is a gamechanger in light output and energy efficiency!

[intellectsucks]

Success!!!

I bought an LED flushmount and managed to install it on the old 3.5 inch pancake junction box hiding up in the ceiling. The diameter of the fixture covers all the scars and holes, and the lighting situation in that hallway has gone from 'CFL bulb hanging from wires around a fixtures ringed by broken bits of plaster' to 'Sure, that looks pretty nice and [flips switch] HOLY CRAP THAT'S A BRIGHT LIGHT!'.

The only real installation issue I had to solve was that with the old junction box up behind two layers of plaster, the center threaded bolt / post intended to connect the fixture to the strap wasn't long enough. Thankfully the old fixture also used a center bolt assembly of nearly identical dimensions so I was able to use parts of both assemblies to attach the new fixture to the old junction box.

Thanks again to everyone for the help and encouragement. Posting about it here was definitely the kick in the pants I needed to actually figure out what needed to happen (with copious help from the responses here) and follow through.

Technical question for future reference: is there an easy way to consistently ensure that photos posted here display with the proper orientation? Seems that the preview-sized photos are basically always turned 90 or 180 degrees but if you click to enlarge they turn to orient properly.

Great work!!!  That's a HUGE improvement.

I went from someone who could barely change a lightbulb to now being able to do pretty significant remodels and I can offer this DIY advice: patience, persistence and research are the keys to getting better and you displayed all three.  I'm eager to see your new projects!!

[lthenderson]

Looks great. I generally keep a bit of lamp threading rod around in my shop for light fixing. It has come in handy many times over the years. I'm guessing it can still be found in many hardware stores and is 3/8" OD though I think it is called 1/8" IPS threads and I usually buy it in 2 ft. sticks and just cut off what I need. I have never used it in your application but mostly use it when repairing old lamps with those pull chain style light bulb sockets. I'm guessing it is the same size that is standard in the industry.