Author Topic: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?  (Read 9159 times)

dilinger

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Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« on: August 12, 2015, 08:22:49 PM »
My house currently has oil heat, sketchy (asbestos!) ducts, and is poorly insulated. I'm planning to work on air sealing and insulation as time permits, but for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is cost), I want to get some heat pumps installed ASAP before winter comes.  Ideally, I want to be able to go this winter with minimal usage of the oil furnance, and perhaps (after air sealing/insulation has been done) remove the oil tank and furnance, and seal up the ducts in the walls.  It rarely drops below freezing here in the Pacific NW (and a website calculated only 3729 heating degree days for a nearby weather station), so heat pumps are ideal.  I'd also like to get off of fossil fuels, so natural gas isn't particularly desirable.  I'm not concerned about cooling, just heating.

The house has 3 levels. The basement will need only heat, but will also be the first spot that's insulated (floor and walls).  The main floor will probably also only need heat.  The (finished) attic will need both heating and cooling, and my friend who stays there currently uses a window a/c unit in the summer and a plug-in electric heater in the winter.  Needless to say, the attic definitely needs massive insulation work.  I'm going to do it right at some point; tearing off the siding and putting some rigid foam to address thermal bridging, for example, rather than just blowing cellulose into the walls and crossing my fingers.

I don't want a centralized system; I hate ducts for numerous reasons, and I also don't want a single point of failure (we're going to pretend that losing electricity isn't an issue for now).  I figure my best option is 3 heat pumps, 1 ton (12,000 BTUs) each.  That will likely be underpowered in the leakiest parts of the house, but will become more than enough as I insulate.  An city-supplied energy contractor gave me a $5k quote for a 1 ton mini-split install that he claimed would be fine for the entire house once he did the air sealing and insulation!  I don't actually believe him, but I figure it's something that can be adjusted over time.

The obvious choice is between mini splits and PTACs/PTHPs (those things in hotels).

Pros of mini splits: Efficient. Quieter on the inside. Better insulation (a 3in hole in the wall versus a 3ft hole). A $1.2k utility rebate if I have it professionally installed.  Easy to compare; they all provide HSPF numbers.
Cons of mini splits: Much more expensive. Requires a professional installer and permit for the refrigerant vacuum stuff. Possibly louder on the outside? The completely DIY option (w/ pre-charged linesets) is less efficient. I'll need to find space outside of the house for the compressor units.  Some people don't like the look of the indoor units on the wall.

Pros of PTHPs: Cheap! Uses wall space instead of outside space for the compressor. Doesn't require a permit or lineset charging; very DIY-friendly  Provides the option for ventilation, which will be desirable once I do air sealing.  Easier to swap out/upgrade/downgrade/replace in the future, if I find the unit is overpowered or underpowered.
Cons of PTHPs: Less efficient. A big hole in the wall will limit future insulation achievements.  Noisier on the inside.  No utility rebate. Some people may not like the look of it.  There's no energy star minimum efficiency for PTHPs, and rather than standardizing on HSPF, they switch between COP and EER.

I was planning to do a mix.  In the attic upstairs, where there's wood paneling and it already could be a hotel/BnB, I was going to go with a PTHP.  I was not looking forward to finding a place for a mini split compressor - hanging on a ladder on the side of the house, either attaching a compressor unit to the side of the house or running the lineset down 20+ft to the ground.  Because of the sloped walls and weird layout, I'm not sure where I'd mount a mini split wall unit.  There's an obvious PTHP spot right under a window.

On the main floor, I could do either. Again, due to the layout, I can easily see where a PTHP might go, but there aren't a lot of options for a mini split wall unit.

In the basement, due to the concrete foundation walls, a mini split would make more sense.  That would earn me the $1.2k rebate.  I could do the majority of the install myself, and just pay for an HVAC tech to come out and charge up the lineset (*if* I can find one).

Unfortunately, I'm unsure how to compare mini split efficiency (typically around 10 HSPF or better for the ones I'm looking at) to PTHP efficiency (3+ COP).  I'm also completely unsure how to run numbers to figure out how long the payback period would be for more efficient units.  Anything I get is going to be cheaper to run than the $1500/yr I currently pay for oil (and that's not counting the electricity used by the starter/blower/circulator, or my friend in the attic who is not well-served enough by a single thermostat and low insulation, so is currently resorting to electric heat.

My hunch is that a fancy efficient unit (eg a Mitsubishi 26 SEER/12.5 HSPF @ $1800 not including lineset) isn't going to pay off compared to getting a less efficient unit from a less fancy brand (GREE 9 HSPF @ $1060 including lineset).  Unfortunately, too many variables make it difficult for me to do a mustachian back-of-the-envelope calculation.  I suspect the argument for a more efficient PTHP unit is easier, as the difference seems to be $800 vs $1000 for a more efficient unit.

Given that my current system is already pretty noisy with the vents, I wasn't too concerned about PTHP noise; but I was still planning to start with the attic unit.  Install it and see how I like it, and base my decision on the main floor on that.  My friend has an ancient noisy a/c running quite a bit lately with this heat wave, so I doubt he'll mind a new, quieter PTHP.

Opinions?  Thoughts?  Has anyone tried PTAC/PTHP units in their house?  Will potential home buyers run away screaming when I go to sell?  How can I do some calculations to figure out whether getting a more efficient unit will pay back?  Is there anything I'm forgetting to take into account?

velocistar237

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 08:43:00 AM »
I think the hotel units look really out of place in any home that isn't in a high-rise. You'll appreciate the lower noise of the mini-splits. The outside units are about as loud as a window unit, but that noise doesn't make it indoors.

The mini-split indoor units come in several forms, and if you end up going with lower efficiency models, you might as well consider the indoor units that go against the wall at floor level, sort of like a radiator. I've also seen pictures of the common bar air handlers at knee height, so don't let sloping upper walls rule those out. Even on a sloping wall, you can frame out a little triangle box to give yourself a short vertical wall on which to install your air handler.

I disagree with the guy who says you can get by with one mini-split. Even passive-house-level insulation and sealing will allow temperature gradients between house levels that a single-point A/C can't overcome.

Can't a ground-level mini-split compressor reach the third floor? There are wall mounts if it can't. Or you could stack them (with wall mounts), putting the highest one closer to the third floor. With a floor unit air handler on the third level, the supply line run wouldn't be that far.

Here's a discussion about COP, SEER, and HSPF conversion. The people on that site know this topic really well.

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 07:15:11 PM »
Thanks.  I was under the impression that PTAC units had gotten much quieter; for example, lots come with 2 fans instead of 1, where the inside fan runs much slower (and quieter), and an outdoor fan runs faster and louder.  Of course, "inside" vs "outside" in this scenario is a difference of maybe 10 inches, so perhaps not a huge deal.. but still, my understanding was that they were much less noisy than they were a decade ago.

I'll check out the variety of mini split indoor units.

I found a great XLS file (http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls) that I can plug COP and HSPF values into.  I know how many gallons of oil I use per year, and the rough efficiency of my oil furnace, which gives me between 52mil BTUs/yr and 44mil (based on potential loses).  Multiply the $ per BTU for each HSPF/COP output, and I've got a (very!) rough estimate of how much each option will cost to run per year.

I'm paying $1,500/yr now for oil.  I figure the DIY Caribou option (10.72HSPF) will run me $500-$600/yr, for an upfront cost of $1500 per unit.  The fancy Mitsubishi with 12.5 HSPF will run $400-$500/yr, at an upfront cost of $1800 + lineset (per unit) + lineset setup.  At ~$100 savings per year, that's like 15 years (remember, upfront costs are multiplied by 3 for 3 units, but savings are for the whole house); doesn't seem worth it.  A less expensive GREE unit at 9 HSPF costs about $600-$700/yr, at an upfront cost of $1060 + lineset setup.  The Caribou efficiency pays back in 6+ years compared to that.

Or, I could go with the PTACs, which cost around $800-$900 up front for units that cost anywhere from $430 - $600 to run per year (COPs between 3.1 and 3.6).  That makes it at least a $200 premium (per unit!) for the cheapest GREE mini split that's going to cost around $100-$200 more per year to run.  Is the extra quiet really that much better?  We actually have really squeaky floors and live near a busy street, and I was actually looking forward to some white noise.  Then again, some youtube videos of the weird compressor noises coming from older PTAC units was not that pleasant.  And then there's the sale value of the house to consider..

My calculations aren't taking into account efficiency that is lost through having what's essentially another window with a PTAC unit, so it may be that even the cheapest mini split costs less to run than the most expensive PTAC given that. I don't really know..

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 08:03:25 PM »
Wow, cheap GREE mini split option: http://ecomfort.com/rio-12000-btu-hr-ductless-heat-pump-system-wall-mounted-16-seer-85-hspf-98700.html
$760, 8.5 HSPF.  That puts it on par with PTACs!

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 06:33:21 PM »
Local HVAC contractors are making this decision REAL easy for me. In order to get the $1200 utility rebate, I need to use one of their qualified contractors to install the mini split.  I have contacted every single one on their list (there's about 30), asking if they'd finish up an install.  All of the ones who have responded so far have said that they only will install equipment that they've sourced.  Even the HVAC contractors that do installs AND service/repair; in other words, if my heat pump leaks, they'll come out and evacuate the lineset and add new refrigerant, but they won't just evacuate the lineset for me as part of the install process.

I ran a bunch of numbers.  The utility rebate allows me to get a 10HSPF heat pump for the cost of an 8HSPF one (around $3250 for the 3 12k mini splits).  Without the rebate, I'm looking at around $4450, and I'm dealing with multiple extra local permits (electrical, possibly mechanical) and lots of extra one-time learnin'.  The DIY Caribou unit ends up being the same cost ($4500).  If I let the contractors do everything (in order to get the rebate), it'll be AT LEAST $6000, and probably more like $10,000.  So I'm about ready to give up on the rebate, and go the DIY Caribou route.  I don't really want to try and DIY a unit that's meant to be installed by a contractor, because I'd actually like to have some warranty.



velocistar237

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2015, 05:48:12 AM »
How about installing a meter on the mini-split so you'll know how it's performing?

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2015, 02:03:11 PM »
If I go the Caribou route, it uses a normal 115V plug/outlet (around 8 or 8.5 amps).  I plan to keep it simple w/ a shared circuit and no custom wiring until I upgrade my electrical panel.  The panel upgrade is planned, but there's higher priority stuff right now.  Unless, of course, my panel can't handle the extra 17-25 amps, in which case the panel upgrade jumps in priority.  The house was mostly knob-and-tube wiring until about a year ago when I moved in and had an electrician just replace all the exposed K&T!

However, keeping it simple doesn't preclude plugging in my kill-a-watt and measuring KWH for a unit..

Goldielocks

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2015, 04:32:22 PM »
What about electric (e.g., baseboards or wall units) in the rooms where you don't need AC?  Electric baseboards are cheap and easy to install once you have the circuit installed.

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2015, 05:06:04 PM »
What about electric (e.g., baseboards or wall units) in the rooms where you don't need AC?  Electric baseboards are cheap and easy to install once you have the circuit installed.

Yep! That is my plan.  But my flooring layouts are pretty simple, so I don't need to prioritize that right now.  However, I do think there having one mini split per floor will be necessary.  Total square footage is around 2200, split up amongst 3 floors; I'm guessing is around 850, 850, and 500 (attic).  The downstairs basement is split up into 4 different rooms, but those will all be reorganized as the space is finished.  The top floor (attic) is mostly just one big (bed)room (not counting the bathroom), so that's easy.  And the main floor is mostly kitchen/living room/hallway, that will easily be handled with the mini split.  If the bathroom and two bedrooms on the main floor get too cold, resistance heating, additional insulation, and perhaps a better way to circulate air are in my plans.  One bedroom actually gets pretty moist in the morning after the door has been closed all night, with condensation on the inside windows, so there's a dire need there for ventilation and better windows.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2015, 05:30:12 PM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, too long didn't read
In the following MMM article
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/03/25/cut-your-power-bill/
he recommends this
https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-heat-pumps.html?cat=30

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 05:18:45 PM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, too long didn't read
In the following MMM article
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/03/25/cut-your-power-bill/
he recommends this
https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-heat-pumps.html?cat=30

I'd been looking at GPConservation's site for heat pumps.  It's actually really confusing, since this says "Outdoor unit" but shows a picture of an indoor unit:
https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-mini-split-wall-mounted-heat-pump-air-conditioner-outdoor-unit-12-000btu.html
What's amazing about that is, paired with the indoor unit (https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-mini-split-wall-mounted-heat-pump-air-conditioner-indoor-unit-12-000btu.html), that's $975 for a good quality (25 SEER, 12HSPF) Panasonic 12k minisplit; exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.  I'm suspicious, though, since elsewhere the outdoor unit is TWICE the cost:   http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453068931 .  I suspect that GPConservation has it mislabeled or something.

Also, the MMM coupon code doesn't seem to work any more. :(  Otherwise, that would be $2632.5 instead of $2925 for all 3.

That would give me an extra $1500 or $1800 to spend on the HVAC install/lineset/permits/electric updates (I would definitely need to run extra 240V circuits for the Panasonic unit).  Which is pretty reasonable, IF I could find an HVAC installer.  See my issues above with finding one..

paddedhat

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 07:35:44 PM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, too long didn't read
In the following MMM article
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/03/25/cut-your-power-bill/
he recommends this
https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-heat-pumps.html?cat=30

I'd been looking at GPConservation's site for heat pumps.  It's actually really confusing, since this says "Outdoor unit" but shows a picture of an indoor unit:
https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-mini-split-wall-mounted-heat-pump-air-conditioner-outdoor-unit-12-000btu.html
What's amazing about that is, paired with the indoor unit (https://www.gpconservation.com/ductless-mini-split-wall-mounted-heat-pump-air-conditioner-indoor-unit-12-000btu.html), that's $975 for a good quality (25 SEER, 12HSPF) Panasonic 12k minisplit; exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.  I'm suspicious, though, since elsewhere the outdoor unit is TWICE the cost:   http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453068931 .  I suspect that GPConservation has it mislabeled or something.

Also, the MMM coupon code doesn't seem to work any more. :(  Otherwise, that would be $2632.5 instead of $2925 for all 3.

That would give me an extra $1500 or $1800 to spend on the HVAC install/lineset/permits/electric updates (I would definitely need to run extra 240V circuits for the Panasonic unit).  Which is pretty reasonable, IF I could find an HVAC installer.  See my issues above with finding one..

A buddy of mine just did work around, when it comes to the companies that are attempting to block you out of being able to DIY a mini split. He found an HVAC tech that does side work. He then did the install and had the tech. do the line set. First, I would ask you electrician, and any other contractor you do business with, if they have a "guy". Failing that, I would go to an HVAC supply house, drop a $20 on the counter and tell the clerk that it's theirs if they can provide two names of competent HVAC guys who do moonlight work. Every  supply house has a short list of guys who have accounts, and work their asses off another 20-30 hours a week on side work,  beyond the 8-5 time they put in as an employee with a bigger outfit.

If this is doesn't pan out, do the work anyway. Call a local outfit and tell them that you have a leak. When the tech. show up, explain your "leak" and slide him a $50. Tell him that your leak needs to be resolved discretely, and you know that he is the man for the job. Good luck.

savman

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 05:29:42 PM »
Your assertion that 'pre-charged' linesets are less efficient does not compute. All it means is the refrigerant is installed at the factory as opposed to in the field. You have the added benefit of machine flared ends as opposed to hand tool flared ends, which is the leading cause of refrigirant leaks. (or so I have read, and my HVAC guy confirmed) The draw back is you have to used a pre-determined length of line-set.

I purchased a 24k btu (~2 ton) mini split with the default lineset, 15 feet iirc, for 1060 dollars delivered to my door. I installed myself at a cost of less than 100 dollars (wire, 60A disconnect, waterproof line shroud, Nygol for refrigerant lines, etc.) I paid a licensed HVAC guy 50 dollars pull a vacuum on my line set (after it was connected) and monitor the pressure. I would have done it myself if I had a set of vaccum gauges, but the cost of a good set plus connectors vs having it professionally done was a no brainer for me. Also it may be illegal for a non-licensed technician to turn refrigerant to the line set, so that was a consideration as well.

Anyway, I am into the whole deal for less than 1300 dollars.

I purchased an off brand system with a name brand compressor (Mitsubishi).

All in all, I think your prices are out of line to put it mildly.

P.S. for 8 or 900 more dollars I could have bought the genuine article Mitsubishi or whatever then leading Japanese name brand is.

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2015, 02:05:48 AM »
When I said that they are less efficient, I meant the models available.  For example, the Caribou I mentioned is around 11 HSPF.  For the same price, a Parasonic unit has an HSPF of 12.5.  Likewise, the Breeze DIY models have some ridiculously low SEER; 13.  It's not the lineset itself that's less efficient.

If you think my prices are out of line, what should I be looking at instead?  "Off-brand" doesn't help; send me a link to something, please.


dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2015, 02:09:35 AM »
BTW, I can only find one source for the DIY Caribou units, and they're out of the 12k models. They have the 18k models, but that seems a bit high.

I also finally found an HVAC person willing to finish up the lineset installation.  They charge $190/hr, with a $115 trip fee.  I figure for 2 hours (to evacuate 3 units), it'd be $500.  I live in a somewhat HCOL area, so there's no way I'm going to find someone to do it for $50 unless it's a friend or something.

Bob W

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2015, 09:10:22 AM »
I always recommend a whole house energy audit to be completed by a HERS certified professional.   You can google or check with your local utility to find one.

Many utilities subsidize the cost of this.

Be sure to pick someone who is not aligned with an HVAC or insulation company.    If they are HERS certified they should have a pretty sweet computer software system to help with your decisions.   They should also complete a blower door and infrared camera evaluation as part of their assessment.   

If you pay full bore it may cost you $300 up front.  It will be well worth it.   Information is power.   I guarantee they will save you $10 per month in energy use minimum. 

patrat

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2015, 11:49:46 AM »
Improve your sealing and insulation before buying new HVAC equipment. Get a before/after energy audit, to make sure you are not leaving something obvious.

Now, run your existing system with the improved envelope for a month or two, and compare to previously. Re-run your return on investment - it will now be a longer time to see return. Also, you will have a better idea of your required equipment sizing, avoiding overbuying of equipment. Heating oil is looking much cheaper this year than last.

If you want to go for a hybrid solution, invest in a single DIY minisplit while improving the building. Get your HVAC license if it tickles you to DIY it, I doubt it is hard. Now see how much the oil or space heaters are having to play catchup, and add an additional minisplit if it makes sense.

savman

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2015, 04:35:31 PM »
When I said that they are less efficient, I meant the models available.  For example, the Caribou I mentioned is around 11 HSPF.  For the same price, a Parasonic unit has an HSPF of 12.5.  Likewise, the Breeze DIY models have some ridiculously low SEER; 13.  It's not the lineset itself that's less efficient.

If you think my prices are out of line, what should I be looking at instead?  "Off-brand" doesn't help; send me a link to something, please.

I think I bought from http://www.thermospace.com/, but tbh I shopped around so much I am not sure; Anyway, I researched the units and ended up purchasing from the same company on their ebay ad. The price was the same, and I had the protection of Ebay + PayPal, both of which I have used hundreds of times and felt completely secure.

I don't know anything about HSPF, as I am in a cooling dominated climate and this unit was purchased to cool my workshop. Which it does well I might add.  Mine is a 15 or 18 SEER, which isn't top of the line by any means, but I put an ammeter on the line to verify energy consumption and it was inline with the documentation. So I am pleased.

BTW when I said your prices are out of line I was referring to the 5k for a 1 ton install (x3!!!!! yikes!). That is absurd. TBH I glanced through the second half of your article because Wall of Text.

Also, I don't see why you are so concerned about a single point of failure. Get a large unit with three zones and that should alleviate some of the cost as well.

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2015, 05:22:54 PM »
Improve your sealing and insulation before buying new HVAC equipment. Get a before/after energy audit, to make sure you are not leaving something obvious.

Yep, did that already.  There's obviously lots of places to insulate, but they caclulated that the best immediate returns would be on replacing the oil furnace and air sealing.


dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2015, 05:33:58 PM »

I think I bought from http://www.thermospace.com/, but tbh I shopped around so much I am not sure; Anyway, I researched the units and ended up purchasing from the same company on their ebay ad. The price was the same, and I had the protection of Ebay + PayPal, both of which I have used hundreds of times and felt completely secure.

I don't know anything about HSPF, as I am in a cooling dominated climate and this unit was purchased to cool my workshop. Which it does well I might add.  Mine is a 15 or 18 SEER, which isn't top of the line by any means, but I put an ammeter on the line to verify energy consumption and it was inline with the documentation. So I am pleased.

BTW when I said your prices are out of line I was referring to the 5k for a 1 ton install (x3!!!!! yikes!). That is absurd. TBH I glanced through the second half of your article because Wall of Text.

Also, I don't see why you are so concerned about a single point of failure. Get a large unit with three zones and that should alleviate some of the cost as well.


$5k was the quote I got from an installer for a 1ton unit, who was also going to do some insulating.  The whole reason I'm looking into doing it myself was because that quote was so ridiculous, and I didn't believe him when he said 1 ton would be enough for a 2300sf house across 3 floors.

A single point of failure is not the only concern.  Local permitting requires a mechanical AND refrigeration permit if I do a multi-zone unit; there's also the required 240V electrical circuit.  I have no space left in my panel for more 240V circuits; at best, I can squeeze some slimline 115V circuits in there (yes, there's the very real possibility that I will need to upgrade my panel in the process of this installation).  A single-zone unit doesn't require a mechanical permit, will work on a 120V circuit, and won't require running linesets to opposite ends of the house.

savman

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2015, 08:15:37 PM »
You have a lot more moving parts than I did. I would plan on either upgrading your panel, or installing a sub-panel.  All of the systems I looked at were 240v, and just took a quick glance on ebay and all of the 12000 btu units I was were 240v as well.

If it were me and I had to have 3 separate systems I would just install 3 of the Gree's (or something similar) you mention in the OP. Actually I would probably spring for Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, LG, or some other name brand if I could find a pre-charged one for no more than about 50-60 percent premium.

Additionally, given your labor rates I would buy a set of gauges, r410a connector, and a vacuum pump. (cheap pump, good gauges: cost $200-250)  It takes several minutes to evacuate the lines (maybe 15) and then you/technician will need to wait a substantial period with the gauges connected to ensure the vacuum is held. It took my guy ~45 minutes to do my single unit. At 190/hour + 115 trip fee you are going to be looking at nearly 600 dollars for somewhere between 2 and 3 hours work. No way am I paying a nearly 400,000 annual rate for something this simple, permits or no. The purpose of requiring a licensed technician is to ensure no r410a is leaked into the atmosphere; I can monitor the needle on a gauge as good as the next guy.

And I agree that 1 ton is not even remotely sufficient for 2300 square feet on one level, much less 3. No idea what that guy was thinking.

eta: the decent efficiency 12k btu's I looked at were all just shy of 1000W peak power, so about 4 amps/unit @ 240V. 12 amps is nothing; if all you need is room on the bus bar I would go the sub-panel route.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM by savman »

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2015, 09:28:50 PM »

If it were me and I had to have 3 separate systems I would just install 3 of the Gree's (or something similar) you mention in the OP. Actually I would probably spring for Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, LG, or some other name brand if I could find a pre-charged one for no more than about 50-60 percent premium.

Additionally, given your labor rates I would buy a set of gauges, r410a connector, and a vacuum pump. (cheap pump, good gauges: cost $200-250)  It takes several minutes to evacuate the lines (maybe 15) and then you/technician will need to wait a substantial period with the gauges connected to ensure the vacuum is held. It took my guy ~45 minutes to do my single unit. At 190/hour + 115 trip fee you are going to be looking at nearly 600 dollars for somewhere between 2 and 3 hours work. No way am I paying a nearly 400,000 annual rate for something this simple, permits or no. The purpose of requiring a licensed technician is to ensure no r410a is leaked into the atmosphere; I can monitor the needle on a gauge as good as the next guy.

Trust me, it's tempting to just do it all myself.  That's why I looked at the fully DIY units.  I contacted Caribou, who said it would be a few months before they had more 12k units in stock.  :(

Maybe I will end up buying a vacuum pump/gauges/etc.  I have a friend interested in some mini splits as well, I bet he could be convinced to go in on tools with me or buy my used tools.

kudy

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 09:51:51 PM »
I bought and installed a "Pioneer" brand 2 zone unit from highseer.com (through Amazon) earlier this year for a total out of pocket of $2,245 and many man-hours researching and installing. Here's my thread on the project:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/do-it-yourself-forum!/diy-ductless-mini-split/

I haven't yet used the heating, but the cooling has been incredibly affordable (averages about 3 cents an hour to maintain 72F upstairs, if my electricity monitor is to be believed). If the heating performs well over the winter I plan to do another 1 zone unit in my living room next year  (if I can figure out the electrical circuit). The outdoor compressor is whisper quiet and it's been great so far.

I had no trouble finding an HVAC company to help me with the final step - maybe it's the rebate thing that's a sticking point? I wasn't able to get a rebate from my utility because I self-installed - the HVAC company just charged me hourly for the vacuum pump work, they weren't signing off on the whole thing for rebate or warranty purposes. Without the pro HVAC option I was considering buying this kit (or something like it) and trying the vacuum pump myself, but it's intimidating:
http://www.amazon.com/Ideal-Air-700580-Mini-Split-Installation/dp/B00L1I0B18/
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:02:53 PM by kudy »

rulesofacquisition

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 01:53:24 PM »
Be careful if you DIY that you're not voiding any manufacturer's warranty. I do HVAC sales and like the Mitsubishi systems - you could connect all 3 of the indoor units to one outdoor unit. A heat load (Manual J) will give you an idea of what size units you need even if you have to guess at some R-values. Also, be aware of the actual BTU ratings, not just "it's their 12,000 BTU unit".

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2015, 01:48:20 AM »
I haven't decided on a system for the main floor and basement yet; I need to go through and clean up the electrical first.

For the upstairs (which is a smaller space), I decided on a 115V through-the-wall heat pump.  Specifically,  a GREE 26TTW09HP115V1A Through the Wall Air Conditioner with Heat Pump, 9,000 BTU.  Total cost of heat pump + sleeve = $630.  Totally self-contained, no special tools needs, and no permits.

One thing I found irritating while shopping for these - none of the manufacturers published noise or temperature function in their specs.  I don't know how loud it will be, nor do I know at what outdoor temp the heat pump will stop working.

dilinger

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Re: Help me choose between various (diy) heat pump options?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2016, 01:05:20 PM »
As I mentioned earlier, I got a GREE thru-the-wall unit for upstairs.  Inside, it's about as noisy as any standard window ac.  Outside, it's really noisy.  Due to that, when it dies or when I renovate the upstairs, I'll probably install a proper mini split.  It's fine for now, though.

For the basement and main floor, I got 2 Friedrich Breeze BR0412W1A units (12k BTU each).  They are amazing.  Quiet inside and outside.  They run off 115V, and use a standard wall plug.  It's a diy unit, so installing myself didn't void the warranty.  It uses quick-connect for the lineset, so no special tools needed.  They even come with their own ground pads.

Cost: $1480 per unit (including S&H).  That makes the total expenditure for the house (2 mini splits and 1 thru-wall) = $3590.  Overall, I'm pretty pleased.

I've always had the oil heat thermostat set to 64 or 65F, and my wife has always complained that it's too cold.  I've set the main floor heat pump to 69F, and it's doing a great job of pumping out heat.  The oil furnace hasn't even kicked on in days!  It's actually a little *too* warm for me (though my wife is loving it), so we'll probably turn it down a bit at some point.  Since our electricity is cheap and all hydro power, I don't have to feel bad about having it turned up..