Author Topic: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.  (Read 5208 times)

nereo

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Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« on: October 16, 2017, 05:47:41 PM »
Basically I'm looking for input from folks who may have gone down this route before:

Situation: moving to a new area (fairly rural) and looking to buy a home.  There's a fair number of homes on the market (buyers market).  Modern/recently renovated 3bd/2bath are selling around the $200k mark.  There are also two homes selling for $62k and $70k but would need extensive renovations. Both homes passed inspection, but absolutely everything is worn and the decor comes from the early 70s (complete with suspended ceiling int he ktichen and a pink toilet with matching tub!).

My idea: at ~$62k I could put in $100k worth of renovations and basically built it how I like and save ~$40k over a build-to-spec. Due to both time and domestic tranquility I'd contract out most of the larger projects (e.g. drywall, new roof, energy efficient windows, electrical). I'm reasonably handy and have built decks, installed flooring and replaced a few windows but I could only donate a 10-20 hours/week to this project, so I'll probably stick to things like trim, deck, painting, and doing the flooring in the less-used parts of the house.

I'd be living in the home through the renovations (yes, prepared to live in a construction site - done it before, just not on this scale) and I'm prepared to spend weekends and evening hours doing projects.

If I decide to push forward I'll have my own inspector go through everything, and put estimates to everything I need and want to have done. I should have the capitol to pay for the renovations even without a loan (but will be talking to the bank just the same given our low-interest rate environment).
Thoughts?

kendallf

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 06:14:14 PM »
Can you swing a rental for a few months while doing this?  Given the scale of what you're talking about, that would seem to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. 

That keeps you and your family a bit saner and allows work to be much better paced.  It's amazing how much living in a reno slows down the pace of work.  I did part of my last one with my daughter living there.  Super slow and frustrating.  When I tore the kitchen down to bare studs, she found a rental.. I should've done that months before!  :-)  The work got a lot faster after that.

nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 06:44:53 PM »
Can you swing a rental for a few months while doing this?  Given the scale of what you're talking about, that would seem to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. 

A short-term rental is certainly a possibility - it certainly wouldn't be much in added cost given what we are considering undertaking. Perhaps mistakenly I thought being 'on-site' may allow for me to stay on top of things, but I can see how keeping one 'living space' could slow things down.

nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 06:53:27 PM »
Can you swing a rental for a few months while doing this?  Given the scale of what you're talking about, that would seem to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. 

That keeps you and your family a bit saner and allows work to be much better paced.  It's amazing how much living in a reno slows down the pace of work.  I did part of my last one with my daughter living there.  Super slow and frustrating.  When I tore the kitchen down to bare studs, she found a rental.. I should've done that months before!  :-)  The work got a lot faster after that.
Follow up question: which aspects of the reno did you find most efficient to contract out?

Jon Bon

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 06:12:58 AM »
DRYWALL! Gawd I hate finishing drywall, takes forever and is never nearly as good as the pro's. This is always money well spent IMO. Heck I can see badly finished drywall from where I am sitting right now.

Perhaps floor or trim work. Hardwoods/laminate are pretty easy. Tile/carpet are a little harder, depends on your skill set.  Trim work takes a skilled hand, plus its one of those things that either never gets finished/painted/sanded, and or is only dont like 90% correctly and you notice it every time you walk by.

I guess my point here is the 'finishing' working that is going to be seen is worth it to be done correctly. No one is going to care if your plumbing work looks a little sloppy when its hidden in the walls.

Fishindude

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 06:34:04 AM »
I would not live in a house that is under full renovation.
You will be a distraction to the contractors / workmen and your life will be in total disruption.
Rent a camper or something for a few months.

Bourbon

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 06:50:53 AM »
Do you know of any good contractors in the area? 

I've done full reno's on rental properties and turned it over to a GC.  Got burned once or twice before I found someone that is both reasonably priced and I can trust to get the job done.  There were also many other contractors who probably would have gotten it done just as well, but for 50% more cost.

If you do have a good contractor, I would have them walk through and talk through your scope of renovations so you have a firmer idea of your reno budget before you buy.

I like this idea, just need to be willing and able to put up the capital and get it done.  Sadly our current house was bought after someone else did the job, and while it is overall nice, I still see the little things that I would have done differently. 

Also, is this just you, or do you have others living with you?  I gutted our kitchen at our last home and we lived on a microwave and fridge in the living room.  Wasn't ideal, but for 30 days it was liveable.

Peter Parker

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 07:30:26 AM »
DRYWALL! Gawd I hate finishing drywall, takes forever and is never nearly as good as the pro's. This is always money well spent IMO. Heck I can see badly finished drywall from where I am sitting right now.

Perhaps floor or trim work. Hardwoods/laminate are pretty easy. Tile/carpet are a little harder, depends on your skill set.  Trim work takes a skilled hand, plus its one of those things that either never gets finished/painted/sanded, and or is only dont like 90% correctly and you notice it every time you walk by.

I guess my point here is the 'finishing' working that is going to be seen is worth it to be done correctly. No one is going to care if your plumbing work looks a little sloppy when its hidden in the walls.

Our first house was a full renovation (so was our second house, but that is a different story).   Our first home was purchased at a time when we had one income (my wife's), and I was a stay-at-home dad to our newborn.  I went to school at night.  The point is we didn't have a lot of money to do the work on the house to make it "ours."

What we had was time, energy, and  creativity.

I was amazed at what could be done with recycled, upscaled, repurposed items.  My wife and I were the "original" Chip and Joanna Gaines from Fixer-upper.  We used recycled wood, instead of drywall   We scavenged broken concrete to make "stone patios."    We made "open shelving" kitchen cabinets from driftwood from the beach (cut, sanded, and hung from pipe purchased from recycled centers).   Floors were made from thrown away wood from demolition sights (they were happy I hauled off crap).  When we were finished, we had a unique home, that others marveled.  When it was time to sell it, buyers raved about it's "uniqueness."  We sold the home a couple of years  for 125K more than its purchase price. 

Look up "recycled house" etc. on Pinterest for inspiration--I've seen some incredible stuff on there...Check out "pallet floors,"  They look incredible. 

Part of my dream in retirement is to help my kids build their home utilizing mostly recycled materials.  I like the challenge and "art" of looking at materials and finding a new purposes for them.

Good luck!

KCM5

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 07:54:55 AM »
Just putting in my support for any possible pink bathrooms!

http://savethepinkbathrooms.com/

lthenderson

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 08:06:21 AM »
As someone who buys fixer uppers, lives in them while I fix them up and then sell them, it is definitely possible. I prefer to do a large project and then let the dust settle for a month or two before starting the next big project. The reason is that sometimes you change your mind about how you want things done after other portions of the project are completed. It also allows for some safe zones. It sucks not having a kitchen for a couple months but at least you have bedrooms and functioning bathrooms, etc. Having neither a kitchen, bedroom or bathroom however is much tougher to live with.

Jon Bon

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 11:12:21 AM »
As someone who buys fixer uppers, lives in them while I fix them up and then sell them, it is definitely possible. I prefer to do a large project and then let the dust settle for a month or two before starting the next big project. The reason is that sometimes you change your mind about how you want things done after other portions of the project are completed. It also allows for some safe zones. It sucks not having a kitchen for a couple months but at least you have bedrooms and functioning bathrooms, etc. Having neither a kitchen, bedroom or bathroom however is much tougher to live with.

Same level of experience here, that is usually how I handle a renno as well. Do the bathrooms one at a time. Don't rip out the kitchen until other projects are finished! Always have at least 1 working toilet!!

I think we need to know more about what a specific house needs.  Its very doable, but not really all at once if you want to live there.

Also do you have kids? I assume not? Do you plan on having any soon? Because they are a pretty much a non-starter for live in renovations.


nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 02:55:57 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

A little more info: The main home under consideration has a nice layout and my 15 minute walk-through didn't yield any major problems - no water damage, mold, foundation cracks etc.  It just hasn't been updated in about 40 years and everything is both very dated and very worn.

I''ll schedule another visit with my own inspector in a week or three, and from there I can get a better sense of the budget than my back-of-napkin calculations.

Demo I'd do myself.  Thinking of hiring out the roof (doesn't appear to leak but its old enough I want it replaced), windows & cladding, electric & plumbing (not sure how extensive that will be, but there's a general lack of outlets and I want to replace the track lighting with LEDs) and drywall. Floors are hardwood pine - looks like 1x10, but at one point were painted (which has since worn through), so probably not salvagable unless I re-paint (which I don't want to do).  Conflicted about whether to redo the floors myself (I've put in hardwood before) or contract out... but i'll cross the bridge later.  The kitchen I"ll do myself, along with the second bathroom (won't need two bathrooms right away).

Because this is a new area I don't have a GC I know personally, though I've gotten two recommendations from friends.  Post inspection I'll call each for a consult.

No, we don't have kids and because of work schedules my wife will be gone for about 2 solid months of the planned reno. I've lived through several renos where I've gutted an entire room (including two kitchens) - just haven't done it for a whole-house.

lthenderson

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 07:15:01 PM »
Kitchens are by far the hardest to live with while fixing up. I ease the pain by making a temporary counter out of 2 by materials and plywood that attaches only to the stud wall so that you can leave your sink mounted while you do just about everything around it. I then tear it down when I install the cabinets and then put the plywood back on top with old sink until the countertop and new sink arrives, etc. It means disconnecting and connecting a few times but it means you still have a functioning sink for 95% of the job. The other big appliances I just move around as needed. More work and longer timelines but its a significant savings and is better than using the grill and bathroom sink as my make shift kitchen for a long period of time.

kendallf

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 07:11:55 AM »
Can you swing a rental for a few months while doing this?  Given the scale of what you're talking about, that would seem to be fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. 

That keeps you and your family a bit saner and allows work to be much better paced.  It's amazing how much living in a reno slows down the pace of work.  I did part of my last one with my daughter living there.  Super slow and frustrating.  When I tore the kitchen down to bare studs, she found a rental.. I should've done that months before!  :-)  The work got a lot faster after that.
Follow up question: which aspects of the reno did you find most efficient to contract out?

I did everything but some drywall finishing and knock down, and an A/C replacement.  I did a bunch of tile work, one part was a bathroom shower from scratch including the pan.  That was slow because I didn't know what I was doing and had to figure out a step at a time.  I don't mind slow when I'm learning a new skill, but at some point in a reno, you have to balance carrying costs against the money saved doing it yourself.  My rough rule of thumb is that if I save more in a month than the mortgage or putative rent, I'm OK with it.  If you're doing it as a business, this of course breaks down eventually.  Or you do.  :-)

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 08:05:15 AM »
My thoughts, since I'm currently doing a full house update....   

1.) Do you have a calculated value for the market value after you spend X $s on the house?


2.) Contractors are NOT starving for work at this time.   That has been my absolutely single biggest headache so far.  Its much harder to get good prices, and that is from the few that bother to answer the phone. . . . 

sokoloff

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2017, 10:01:06 AM »
Yours might be the first whole-house renovation in the history of the world that finished on time and on budget, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd plan for at least a 33% over-run on costs and more than that on time.

nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2017, 12:01:03 PM »
My thoughts, since I'm currently doing a full house update....   

1.) Do you have a calculated value for the market value after you spend X $s on the house?


2.) Contractors are NOT starving for work at this time.   That has been my absolutely single biggest headache so far.  Its much harder to get good prices, and that is from the few that bother to answer the phone. . . .
Thanks
1) Given what similar, recently renovated units are selling for in this area I put the value at $200k-$220k. hence why this is an appealing idea - I can have a budget of $100k with some wiggle room and still come out ahead.

2) finding contractors will be step 2 (following a full inspection) should I continue down this path and before I pull the trigger.  I have two names (referrals from friends) but haven't met with either. 

nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 07:00:34 AM »
UPDATE:  I'm not going through with this afterall.

Spoke with the seller and it didn't go well.  He resisted my requests to have my own inspector look it over, saying he'd already done it, all the info was on the declaration forms and it was a 'waste of  money' (note: the only money wasted would be my own - not the sellers).  AFterwards he seemed more busy and less willing/able to show me the property again.  All of his responses seemed evasive.

Pity.  We may be going down the rental-only route for a while, as life-circumstances have changed a bit and we're now valuing flexibility a bit higher than we were 2 months ago.

thanks all for the comments
~n~

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2017, 10:55:37 AM »
No shame in that! 

I'm actually considering selling 2 houses and going back to renting.

The flexibility is big to me atm.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2017, 11:46:45 AM »
Kitchens are by far the hardest to live with while fixing up. I ease the pain by making a temporary counter out of 2 by materials and plywood that attaches only to the stud wall so that you can leave your sink mounted while you do just about everything around it. I then tear it down when I install the cabinets and then put the plywood back on top with old sink until the countertop and new sink arrives, etc. It means disconnecting and connecting a few times but it means you still have a functioning sink for 95% of the job. The other big appliances I just move around as needed. More work and longer timelines but its a significant savings and is better than using the grill and bathroom sink as my make shift kitchen for a long period of time.

We renovated our previous house one room at the time. When doing the kitchen, we used the sink in the washing room. We also put the microwave there. We ate a lot of precooked meals in that period.

koshtra

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2017, 11:59:11 AM »
Yours might be the first whole-house renovation in the history of the world that finished on time and on budget, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd plan for at least a 33% over-run on costs and more than that on time.

:-) My rule of thumb has served me well. Carefully estimate all the costs, and the amount of time, breaking down all the tasks and constructing a worst-case dependency timeline. Then multiply by four.

KarefulKactus15

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 02:17:16 PM »
Yours might be the first whole-house renovation in the history of the world that finished on time and on budget, but I wouldn't count on it. I'd plan for at least a 33% over-run on costs and more than that on time.

:-) My rule of thumb has served me well. Carefully estimate all the costs, and the amount of time, breaking down all the tasks and constructing a worst-case dependency timeline. Then multiply by four.

I wish it wasn't but on my first remodel the multiplier was close to 3x time and cost.

nereo

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Re: Full house reno (with contractors) - tell me I'm nuts.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2017, 04:48:51 PM »
3x time and money has been pretty standard the first time i do a job.  I find I get closer and closer to 1x each subsequent try (but I never quite get there - maybe if I were a pro).