Author Topic: DIY Solar panel roof install?  (Read 3177 times)

jeromedawg

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DIY Solar panel roof install?
« on: May 30, 2021, 10:52:50 AM »
Just curious but have any of you ever DIY installed solar panels (like a large array of them) on your roof? It has always been something that has intrigued me but I haven't thought much of it since I've never owned an SFH. Anyway, just sort of thinking ahead but wondering if it's worth paying someone to do it and if you can even buy the materials yourself and have someone install for you...? I was under the assumption that most solar companies want you to buy a package from them and that many may not be willing to do the labor-only piece of it but I also have no clue.

nereo

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2021, 11:38:12 AM »
@Syonyk has done a couple of self-install solar projects, and has documented some of it on his blog.

We looked into a partial DIY install but ultimately just paid a company to do it for us.  Obtaining the equipment seemed pretty straightforward, though buying in small-ish quantities meant I couldnm’t get the price that my solar installer quoted for the same panels, invert and optimizers. 

The real challenge (and value IMO of the solar installer) was with permitting. Both my city and utility required multiple sets of permits and inspections (before, during and at completion of the project).  With a whole lot of work I probably could have done this myself and hired a licensed electrician to sign off on it, but it was way beyond my comfort zone.  There was also some legal paperwork to have net-metering set up, as well as some more for my state’s tax-exempt policy for both the hardware and all future power generated by my PV.  Finally, they submitted all the paperwork for my state’s rebate program, and a few weeks later I got my rebate in the mail.  Just a WAG but I’m sure it would have taken me a few weeks to put all that together, having never done anything like it before. 

To go “Retail” install cost me somewhere in the ballpark of $4k more than it would have to DIY.  That was worth it to me, particularly since i used the time to tackle some other home projects like reflooring my entire kitchen-dining room.  YMMV.

joenorm

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2021, 07:31:36 PM »
It's not too difficult if you are handy and willing to spend the time figuring out the design. Are you in SoCal? If so my guess is the margins there for installers are thin, and you may not save that much money doing a DIY as opposed to hiring it out.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2021, 09:08:32 PM »
It's not too difficult if you are handy and willing to spend the time figuring out the design. Are you in SoCal? If so my guess is the margins there for installers are thin, and you may not save that much money doing a DIY as opposed to hiring it out.

Thanks all for the info. Yeah I'm in SoCal. Alot of ppl here seem to like doing solar leases. Seems better just to buy the panels and hire out the labor/installation then?

cchrissyy

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2021, 09:44:10 PM »
I got Tesla solar panels, because they are priced a lot lower now than you might think. They're in sort of a price war right now to sell them cheaper than anyone else can. I read that enough online about their new low pricing strategy that I didn't even get other quotes. It was a very easy process from start to finish, installed ahead of schedule, and the price included every part of installation, permits, warranty etc.   I have their smallest system size and one powerwall. I was picky about where I wanted the panels to be so they weren't seen from the front, and they sent somebody out and worked with me to revise the design to my satisfaction, so that was good, but if they had not done so i would have simply got my deposit back. It was hard to know how much energy the new house really needed since I didn't have a whole month's bill yet, but happily it turns out that at least for spring and summer, we capture almost 2x as much energy as we use. I am very happy with it, and I love ot monitor it on the app, and the powerwall has already saved us from a few minor interruptions, which will be more important to me when we get to fire season and may need to run air filters during shutoffs.

Here is my referral link, save it and if you want to do this after you find a house, the link should be worth $100 off. good luck!  https://www.tesla.com/referral/christine68050

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2021, 10:12:08 PM »
I got Tesla solar panels, because they are priced a lot lower now than you might think. They're in sort of a price war right now to sell them cheaper than anyone else can. I read that enough online about their new low pricing strategy that I didn't even get other quotes. It was a very easy process from start to finish, installed ahead of schedule, and the price included every part of installation, permits, warranty etc.   I have their smallest system size and one powerwall. I was picky about where I wanted the panels to be so they weren't seen from the front, and they sent somebody out and worked with me to revise the design to my satisfaction, so that was good, but if they had not done so i would have simply got my deposit back. It was hard to know how much energy the new house really needed since I didn't have a whole month's bill yet, but happily it turns out that at least for spring and summer, we capture almost 2x as much energy as we use. I am very happy with it, and I love ot monitor it on the app, and the powerwall has already saved us from a few minor interruptions, which will be more important to me when we get to fire season and may need to run air filters during shutoffs.

Here is my referral link, save it and if you want to do this after you find a house, the link should be worth $100 off. good luck!  https://www.tesla.com/referral/christine68050

Thanks! Great to know :) It seems like this is a *great* thing to combine up with Ohmconnect on as you'll likely be guaranteed to beat every single Ohmhour there ever is from the point of installation hahaha.

Fishindude

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2021, 08:18:36 AM »
As a lifelong builder who has built and fixed a whole lot of construction problems, my advice would be to never install anything on your roof that doesn't have to be there.
Unnecessary roof mounted items lead to roof leaks, and it's also a very unhandy place to service anything.

Rack mount your solar panels and put them in the yard.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2021, 09:41:51 AM »
Just curious but have any of you ever DIY installed solar panels (like a large array of them) on your roof?

Large array, yes.  Roof, no.  Mine is 56 panel, mostly east-west facing.



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Anyway, just sort of thinking ahead but wondering if it's worth paying someone to do it and if you can even buy the materials yourself and have someone install for you...?

Certainly.  You can buy the materials and do it yourself, or you can buy the materials and find a random electrical contractor to do it, or you can pay out the nose for a solar company, or try and find one that's decent and well priced with actual service after the install (Tesla fails the last part there, and won't touch anything complex).

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I was under the assumption that most solar companies want you to buy a package from them and that many may not be willing to do the labor-only piece of it but I also have no clue.

A typical solar install company is turnkey service, and you pay them what they think you can afford, based on their sales sheets which are heavily based around lies, deception, and omission.  A typical one will "prove" how much you save by assuming power costs go up 3-4%/yr for the next 30 years, that net metering (if you still have it) remains entirely unchanged, and then convert the value into trees saved and that their $4.50/W system is saving you, why, up to $70,000 or more!  Compared to the "estimated power costs" based on turning the slider all the way up to make their install look the most profitable for you.  Even though in 5 years if something changes you'll be left with the bag and when you need support, they'll probably be out of business.

There are some that aren't that way, but until proven otherwise, that's a reasonable guide solar companies.  Do it yourself.

We looked into a partial DIY install but ultimately just paid a company to do it for us.  Obtaining the equipment seemed pretty straightforward, though buying in small-ish quantities meant I couldnm’t get the price that my solar installer quoted for the same panels, invert and optimizers.

That's surprising that they actually broke out their pricing on material, usually it's "here's the total system cost, installed."  Even shopping at Northern AZ Wind and Solar or such couldn't get you down to their prices? 

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The real challenge (and value IMO of the solar installer) was with permitting. Both my city and utility required multiple sets of permits and inspections (before, during and at completion of the project).

Yeah.  And that's certainly a challenging part, though depending on what the system looks like, there are places online that do plans for standard systems - you specify what you're using, and it draws a set of standard plans for you to submit.  That was a long part of the challenge with my system, and it ended up being a bit less complex than hoped because of a particular roadblock out here who simply rejects plans for "Does not appear to meet all applicable chapters of NEC" reasons until he's gotten enough money for his hourly reviews.  It's not special for homeowners, he does it to the professionals out here too.

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With a whole lot of work I probably could have done this myself and hired a licensed electrician to sign off on it, but it was way beyond my comfort zone.

Certainly, but my all-in system cost was about $1.50/W for a ground mount, which would easily have been $5-$6/W for someone else to do, if not more.  Before any rebates, my system cost me around $25k, and I don't think I could have gotten someone else to do it for under $75k, if not $100k.  It's a big array.  The rooftop quotes I got, for a far smaller, less capable system, were in the $40k range for half the panel.

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There was also some legal paperwork to have net-metering set up, as well as some more for my state’s tax-exempt policy for both the hardware and all future power generated by my PV.  Finally, they submitted all the paperwork for my state’s rebate program, and a few weeks later I got my rebate in the mail.  Just a WAG but I’m sure it would have taken me a few weeks to put all that together, having never done anything like it before.

Sure, but it's a fun experience and useful skills to have!

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To go “Retail” install cost me somewhere in the ballpark of $4k more than it would have to DIY.  That was worth it to me, particularly since i used the time to tackle some other home projects like reflooring my entire kitchen-dining room.  YMMV.

... ah.  You live where?  Here, add a zero and you're getting closer to the delta. :/

Thanks all for the info. Yeah I'm in SoCal. Alot of ppl here seem to like doing solar leases. Seems better just to buy the panels and hire out the labor/installation then?

Solar leases are toxic, and make it virtually impossible to sell your house, because the solar lease companies generally don't respond to you about things like that.  They're another claim on your house, and with how horrible at customer service most of them are, people actively avoid leases.  Buy the stuff and get it installed free and clear.

I got Tesla solar panels, because they are priced a lot lower now than you might think. They're in sort of a price war right now to sell them cheaper than anyone else can.

"We're going to use venture capital to sell products under market price to try and drive everyone else out of business, then jack our prices once we've established a monopoly!" is not the sort of business practices one ought support.

As a lifelong builder who has built and fixed a whole lot of construction problems, my advice would be to never install anything on your roof that doesn't have to be there.
Unnecessary roof mounted items lead to roof leaks, and it's also a very unhandy place to service anything.

Rack mount your solar panels and put them in the yard.

Indeed.  Way more convenient to do a ground mount, and you can do plenty of things with a ground mount you can't easily do with roof mount, because some of the requirements for per-panel shutdown don't exist.  Cheaper, easier to work on, and can usually be situated a lot better in terms of sun exposure.

GuitarStv

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2021, 09:48:03 AM »
Just curious but have any of you ever DIY installed solar panels (like a large array of them) on your roof?

Large array, yes.  Roof, no.  Mine is 56 panel, mostly east-west facing.

Why east/west and not all south facing?  I figured south would produce more net energy.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2021, 09:52:59 AM »
Thanks for the detailed response @Syonyk !

I'm in SoCal, so lot size is a premium here and there's not much of it with most properties you're at so unfortunately roof is the next best thing it seems :( How heavy are these panels? I know one seemingly smart application of these panels is the one I see at many schools and parking lots in the area where they are integrated panels into the roofs of parking stalls - essentially solar-integrated parking stalls. Of course, this still isn't going to happen in most SoCal backyard haha.

nereo

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2021, 10:07:23 AM »
The panels themselves are surprisingly light - 35lbs each or so iirc.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2021, 10:40:13 AM »
The panels themselves are surprisingly light - 35lbs each or so iirc.

Nice. So solar canopies/patio covers seems like that could also be a pretty good use case.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2021, 10:55:52 AM »
Why east/west and not all south facing?  I figured south would produce more net energy.

A variety of reasons, most of which no longer matter, but I was far enough into the system design at that point that they remained.

You're correct that south will produce more net energy per panel during a lot of the year - but east/west produces a more useful energy as it comes up early in the morning and holds on late into the evening, which is when power is typically being used.  I was expecting to lose kWh for kWh net metering, though as it turns out, an optimistic panel purchase back in 2019 locked me into a 25 year grandfathered net metering... which is a subsidy that probably shouldn't exist in that form, but I'll take it.  Idaho Power was talking about moving to "hourly net metering" - so, at the end of every hour, tally up the net pushed through, and you either pay for what you draw or get paid (far less) for what you push.  This means that optimizing self consumption is important, and my panel layout matches our consumption better.

The design is more similar to what you'd find in an off-grid system - a longer solar day is more important than peak noontime production.  The original system design for the house was actually a hybrid system that would run with the grid if possible, but would also be capable of transparently switching to off-grid if the grid was down, so that it looks like an off grid system is quite intentional.

However, now that the days are longer, my east-west panels are able to capture sun long before the south panels come online - they're quite literally backlit in the mornings.  So while in the winter, the south panels produce more per panel, if I use yesterday's data:

South array: 10.77kWh generated on 6 panels, 1.795 kWh/panel
East A-frame: 42.4kWh generated on 24 panels, 1.767 kWh/panel
West A-frame: 41.21kWh generated on 24 panels, 1.717 kWh/panel (lower as the frame is lower and is shaded longer in the morning by the east frame)

Because they're picking up sun early and holding it late.  So on an annual basis, yes, the south panels produce more per panel, but during peak summer, it's less clear.  I need to get some "peak of summer" comparison curves, but from about a month ago, they look like this (spoilered for "huge images I apparently don't have small versions of"):

Spoiler: show









How heavy are these panels?

Around 35-45 lbs per panel.  I think mine are 41, you can swing them solo but it's a lot easier with two people.

cchrissyy

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2021, 11:10:03 AM »
my little set is 12 panels, system size 4.08kw and cost about $8k before the 26% tax credit

yesterday, a sunny weekend in may with everybody home, it produced 22kwh, and the house's actual use was 13.7

to the OP, i am not a DIYer in any way and so my only decision was who to order from. i knew from the minute i bought the house that i would prefer it to have solar and my thinking was, the sooner we get it started the better. i am not here to vouch for tesla as a company, or its cars, or and definitely not their founder. i am only here to say they have the best prices and everything about my service and experience was clear, easy, and fast. and to post that referral link above, lol : )

NaN

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2021, 12:54:52 PM »
Really awesome solar panels @Synonyk! I am curious whether you have thought about having any adjustment on the tilt of the solar panels? I think you could get about 20% gain.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2021, 05:02:21 PM »
i am only here to say they have the best prices and everything about my service and experience was clear, easy, and fast. and to post that referral link above, lol : )

Yeah.  To spam your referral link in a DIY Solar thread.  You didn't DIY it, Tesla is the opposite of DIY, and hopefully nothing needs service down the road, because nobody else will touch their stuff, and their customer service reputation is well known.

Really awesome solar panels @Synonyk! I am curious whether you have thought about having any adjustment on the tilt of the solar panels? I think you could get about 20% gain.

My initial office panel mounts (not the house system) were designed to swing, and I'm replacing those at some point this year with fixed angle panel mounts for those as well (45 degrees tilt, facing south).  It's just not enough to really make a huge difference, and it puts weak points into the system.  I've ended up not bothering swinging one of them since I built it, and the other I moved a few times before deciding it just didn't matter.  I'm heavily overpaneled in my office for winter, so the gains there don't matter.  And on the house system, once I committed to the east-west panel design, there's not much swinging one can do.  I thought about doing a single axis tracker, and a neighbor may play with that, but there's something to be said for a fixed set of mounts.  Also, you don't have to bore nearly as deep for them as you would for a center pole based tracker, and with the amount of rock we have out here, getting a few feet down is hard enough, going deep enough for a center supported pivot would require getting the cable well drill tools out.  I could (I have access to them and a many-decades expert at running them), but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle.

My system is definitely less efficient per panel in the winter, though in the summer it's about equal because I've got so much more solar day.

Peak on the As is about 4.4kW, and my east frame hit 25% of that (1.1kW) at 6:55 AM.  The west frame unshaded at 8AM for 2.4kW.  My south panels started ramping up at 8AM (prior to that, they're backlit), and hit 25% of peak (350W of 1.4kW peak) at 8:50.  That's nearly two hours after the east frames were producing hard.

If your goal is purely financial and you have kWh for kWh net metering, don't do what I did, it makes very little sense.  Point stuff south.  But for a post net metering world, producing power when you actually need it (morning/evening) is more useful.  I just still end up with a nasty mid-day peak (I'm typically pushing 10kW to the grid around 2PM, which is solar noon for us - yes, we're in the wrong time zone).  Post net metering... I have no idea, it varies.  Point stuff southwest, that's likely the most profitable direction to export during evening peak if you've got time of use or such.

Ripple4

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2021, 06:44:36 PM »
I take the OP to be asking for some guidance. like many things mustachian, read read read! My favorite book on solar energy after reading every book that's available on order in my library is 'Solar electricity handbook 2019 edition : a simple practical guide to solar energy.' Also be wary of some on-line forums on solar power, there is a kind of orthodoxy in some circles and new ideas are shunned, learn what you can and move on. I also have a post on this forum on my DIY off-grid solar power system, search it out. It's a grid fall-back type, so when the home battery is charged, everything runs on it. and when it goes low on charge, there is a very fast automatic relay that switches all my loads to the grid. then monitor it with a efergy energy monitor kit and smart phone app. as well as remotely switch loads on/off with SONOFF relays. This way I don't need a bi-directional meter and in fact the power company cannot see that I run 70% of my stuff on solar, they only see my using 200KWh in summer instead of 1200KWh. I also have a youtube video series that i link to in the post, while i'm a relatively poor presenter, it shows one slice of possibility.

The marco trend of solar is a reduction in grid-tie incentives that may even turn into cost adders. In my area they are starting to levy "grid service fees" on grid tie solar installs to the tune of $4/month/KWp. This obviously errases some of the fiscal incentive. If you read 'solar power world online' you may see this is part of a nationwide trend. The power companies have discovered they can install solar farms and produce at 2cents/KWh and still charge you the same as when they were running huge multi-GW thermal plants. My take was, and still is, that off-grid with a lithium battery in a "grid fall back" layout is the right choice for me. With power outage resilience, massive monthly savings/short payback time and much less upfront costs it's the right mix of benefits for my needs. good luck learning, and in your project!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 07:22:44 PM by Ripple4 »

NaN

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2021, 07:32:27 PM »
Good points @Ripple4. There are plenty of things that can erase the financial incentive one way or the other. The other aspect is our time and our willingness to spend oodles of time learning about it. There is DIY solar and there are people really into power grid and usage stuff. I think the whole system is gummed up with both types. Tesla is a great example. And the power company approaches are changing.

Thanks @Syonyk - I get that for your purposes it does not matter as much. I was thinking more of your comments about stable solar power for off-grid stuff rather than a south-only case that will almost always have the giant mid-day spike. It seems some kind of rotation of your panels towards the horizon could make that slightly more stable.  I think my uncle with a cabin up in a northern US state put a panel tiler on his property a long time ago. Something about passive and the fluid in the system moves the panel rather than any motor. Are there times during the morning or evening where the solar is not covering electricity use and you would cover if you had tilted panels?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 07:34:06 PM by NaN »

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 09:46:47 PM »
I take the OP to be asking for some guidance. like many things mustachian, read read read!

Certainly, though I'd suggest more in the way of datasheets, inverter manuals, mounting guides, and of course the relevant NEC if you're doing the work yourself.  There's a lot of stuff written out there (I'm working on one in addition to my blog posts), but the problem is that some of it is quite wrong.  And until you know the field well, it's hard to tell which is good advice, which is bad advice, and which is good advice from 1985, but not useful advice now.  On the other hand, I'll say that YouTube is about 90% correct... just that telling which the nonsense 10% is comes to the same problem, you can't tell until you know the field well.  There are a ton of very dodgy installs, people laughing about connectors smoking, and generally terrible advice on YouTube.  There's a lot of overlap between solar and lithium DIY Powerwall stuff, and again, most of the advice is "90% sane, 10% dangerous."  If you ever see anyone soldering to 18650s, you can assume they're suspect...

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Also be wary of some on-line forums on solar power, there is a kind of orthodoxy in some circles and new ideas are shunned, learn what you can and move on.

I've learned more from the cranky old guys living with solar than just about anyone else... and their advice, while perhaps "shunning new ideas," tends to be based heavily around what works, what's repairable, and what has been proven by time.  There exists an IRC server with a dozen or so people in a quiet room, and the signal to noise ratio, when the room is on topic, is through the roof.  You don't find the latest and greatest promised tech, but you do find people who are living with off grid power systems for decades, who know what works and know what doesn't.  Some of that is useful for grid tie, some of it less so - again, my weird system layout is based on "virtual tracking" and looks more like an off grid system than a normal grid tie system, on purpose.  Also, in many cases, the equipment preference is based around knowing the history of the inverter industry (which is fairly small).  "Oh, that's so-and-so's new company, they're improving the control on thus-and-such design..." vs "I've never heard of them, they're Kickfunding their... uh, might pass on that one."

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This way I don't need a bi-directional meter and in fact the power company cannot see that I run 70% of my stuff on solar, they only see my using 200KWh in summer instead of 1200KWh.

Depending on how that's done, it may or may not be compliant with your local codes and power company requirements (and the two will, often enough, have absolutely nothing to do with each other).  At least in my area, a "no-export" system, in almost all cases, is still going to require the power company to be aware of the system.  If there's any way that it can possibly backfeed the grid, they need to know about it.  One could, theoretically, use a UL listed passthrough inverter (I'm mostly familiar with the Aims stuff) and not be technically capable of backfeeding, and be fine without power company approval, but that doesn't mean that they won't come knocking if you have a good sized solar field they don't know about - and, yes, they do check for stuff like that.  I had some interesting conversations with the various inspectors doing my system, and "rogue grid tie systems" are a thing.  Depending on how it's done, it may just be an issue of getting the proper paperwork filed, or they may take your meter and leave until you fix the problems (if you had, say, a non-UL-listed inverter without any sort of disconnects).

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The marco trend of solar is a reduction in grid-tie incentives that may even turn into cost adders. In my area they are starting to levy "grid service fees" on grid tie solar installs to the tune of $4/month/KWp.

Polo!

Calculating the costs and benefits of distributed energy resources (DERs) is a wide open problem, and there are plenty of studies from various groups that tend to find reasonably different results, though one can often enough look at who funded it and guess the results ahead of time.

It's quite the hard problem, because home solar is an uncontrolled DER - there's no way for the power company to really control it, they just have to deal with what it does.  There's some work on virtual power plants that combine home solar, home batteries, and larger resources (as well as industrial demand management) into a coherent device, but they're still mostly research papers and pilot deployments, not anything that's actually widespread.  There's also the problem that "What works for that one weird guy" doesn't really work out for areas with higher deployment.  California is working through this, and other areas are going to have to as well.  If everyone were on the kWh for kWh program I'm on, there would be nothing left to fund grid operation, and mid-day peak production would rather exceed consumption.  At solar noon the past two months, I'm typically pushing 8-10kW to the grid while consuming about 1kW internally - it's pretty badly biased towards export, except when it's not (clouds, or laundry + EV charging + someone taking a shower).  That sort of thing is why grid segments often have a 10-15% solar penetration max - they just don't have anything to do with the surplus.  Even if you add batteries to the substations, there's a limit to how much energy can be routed around.  I've had 100kWh generation days when the house used 20kWh over a 24h period - though I admit the system design predated Covid.  I was planning an extra 10-15kWh daily from PHEV charging and use that simply doesn't happen reliably anymore.

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This obviously errases some of the fiscal incentive.

Indeed.  However, if you do your own install for $1.25/W or so, it still makes an awful lot more sense than the $4/W installers.  We'll see how Tesla does, they've been consistently turning in $2/W, but also won't touch anything complicated.  And I'm not sure they'll even bother Idaho, given our... plans review process.  The guy apparently is known to pick fights with professional engineers over things like battery banks. :/

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The power companies have discovered they can install solar farms and produce at 2cents/KWh and still charge you the same as when they were running huge multi-GW thermal plants.

Yes? And?  That's about the same cost of the power from the thermal plants.  A typical kWh of energy during non-constrained times is $0.02-$0.04/kWh - the rest of the cost of your power, delivered, is related to transmission and distribution grid costs and maintenance.  You can get a pretty good estimate of your local power company's per-kWh costs by looking at a demand rate schedule for large industrial customers.  They pay separate for the energy (per kWh) and for the power (per peak kW drawn over a period of time), and that per kWh cost is a good starting point to use when pondering power company rates.  Solar is cheaper, but it's also of limited dispatchability (you can curtail them, but not ask for more if they're running at the max power point).  They've got some interesting potential with regards to spinning reserves, especially if you hang some batteries on the high voltage DC side, but there's no pricing model for that in a lot of areas, so it's not yet done.

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My take was, and still is, that off-grid with a lithium battery in a "grid fall back" layout is the right choice for me. With power outage resilience, massive monthly savings/short payback time and much less upfront costs it's the right mix of benefits for my needs. good luck learning, and in your project!

It may be the optimum for you at the moment, but it's also no real way to keep a power grid operational long term if more than a handful of people do it.

It seems some kind of rotation of your panels towards the horizon could make that slightly more stable.  I think my uncle with a cabin up in a northern US state put a panel tiler on his property a long time ago. Something about passive and the fluid in the system moves the panel rather than any motor. Are there times during the morning or evening where the solar is not covering electricity use and you would cover if you had tilted panels?

My panels catch the sun as soon as it comes over our hill (which is a bit past sunrise), and hold it until it sets over the mountains on the other horizon.  Other than using somewhat fewer panels, there's nothing a tracker would gain me in terms of power output.  I would, on the flip side, lose production compared to my As on some of the days that are hazy or cloudy, where the light is coming from a variety of directions instead of directly from the sun.  On days like that, panel area is king and I've got more of it than I would with a tracker.

As for solar "a long time ago," yes.  Most of them had trackers, and there were a range of systems along the lines of what you describe (fluid thermal expansion sort of stuff).  When panels were $10-$15/W (in 1980s dollars), you could spend a ton of money optimizing the panel daily production and come out far, far ahead.  That's not as true anymore with the cost of panels, though industrial solar facilities still tend to have single axis trackers (the axle runs north-south and twists the panels to follow the sun across the sky - it does improve morning/evening production, with fewer panels than I use, but those tracker companies won't talk to homeowners).  The balance of system costs used to be "Panels dominate, everything else is a rounding error," and that's no longer true.  On my system, only about $8000 of the $25,000 build cost was panels.  Optimizing that at the expense of the rest of the system doesn't make nearly as much sense now.

However, there's also no good reason to go overboard.  The production loss from off-angle sun is a cosine error.  If the sun is 10 degrees off panel normal, you still get 98.5% of the illumination.  At this point, trying to really hyper-optimize panel production is more of an interesting hobby than a useful activity, at least in terms of dollars.  It's certainly useful in terms of materials spent on panels, but... optimizing materials required is the sort of thing one could simulate and write a PhD thesis on.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2021, 04:10:09 PM »
What do you guys think of these flexible/pliable panels?
https://www.amazon.com/Flexible-Monocrystalline-Bendable-Semi-Flexible-Off-Grid/dp/B07TDK1KPF/

Very lightweight but wondering how they compare

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2021, 04:29:07 PM »
For what?

They're rubbish for any sort of house install.

$140 for a 100W panel.  I paid $150 for 295W 60 cell panels when I got mine (new old stock), and Platt has some 330W panels for $220, which isn't an amazing price but they've got tons.

They're not obviously UL listed, which means you can't use them on a house if you have to meet NEC.

They're fine for bolting to a trailer, tent, etc, but there's no reason to use them on a house, and it's far from clear you even can if you have to meet code.

NorCal

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2021, 04:33:39 PM »
So I watched my dad do some DIY solar work.  He taught electronics at the local community college, and started a program for solar installation job training.  He did some DIY ground mount systems, but even he wouldn't do anything that involved roof mounting.

I'm typically a DIY person, but this isn't a project I would DIY.  I was comfortable wiring my garage by myself, but solar is another level up.

I would say there are two factors:

1. How comfortable are you with electrical and the national electric code?  You need to really know what you're doing with solar.  This isn't a project you do without permits.  If you're not comfortable pulling your own permits and doing everything to code, you shouldn't be doing this project.  While solar isn't fundamentally complicated, it has the potential to kill someone or burn your house down if not done properly.

2. How comfortable are you with punching holes in your roof (assuming a roof mounted system) and then making those holes completely watertight?  On the off chance they're not watertight, how comfortable are you with your insurance company denying any water-based claim due to a leaky roof?  The risks here are pretty high, but it can save you a few dollars if you really know roofing.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2021, 12:18:03 PM »
Any concerns/issues with having solar panels on top of concrete/slate tile roofing btw? I'm tempted to look into setting up a small solar array in the yard but honestly there's not much yard space. The roof of the place we're in escrow on is concrete/slate tile but supposedly needs some repair work (I'm having a roofing contractor come out to assess to double-check this)

Ripple4

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2021, 02:44:35 PM »
One resource for you jeromedawg, as you consider elevated vs ground mount is to use the pvwatts.nrel.gov website. Just type in your specifics like how many kilowatt of panels you are thinking about the up-down and side-side angle you have and your latitude/city and it tells you the cash value of the power you can make. While it cannot account for local factors like trees it will get you an good idea. I recently added a supplemental 1kw vertical array to my installation, mostly to help with winter production. turns out its a great deal for me because the racking is so easy/cheap for a vertical mount on an existing structure I'm going to have a lifetime cost of ~1.5 cent/KWh on it. At my latitude (41.5n) vertical arrays make nearly the same power year round. In sunny southern ca 55-60 degrees up from horizontal and south facing makes even power year round.

To pile onto the flexible solar panel comments, the most durable panels are double sided glass (bifacial or not, and with better than EVA encapsulant), the acceptable panels are glass/plastic. Only the turds are plastic on both sides. There is a self heating effect in cheaper panels and more powerful (non-cracked) cells 'drive' weaker (cracked) cells into heaters that create ~7x more heat than if it was just a wire, I've seen flexible panels have 2/30 cells melt the plastic around them. That and in a best case scenario they last 1/6 the life of glass panels, most plastic ones have less than a 5 year warranty instead of 25-30 years for glass ones.


jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2021, 03:17:54 PM »
Do most of you guys end up getting enough credits to nearly zero out your electric bills month over month from your arrays?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 03:22:09 PM by jeromedawg »

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2021, 03:42:18 PM »
1. How comfortable are you with electrical and the national electric code?  You need to really know what you're doing with solar.  This isn't a project you do without permits.  If you're not comfortable pulling your own permits and doing everything to code, you shouldn't be doing this project.  While solar isn't fundamentally complicated, it has the potential to kill someone or burn your house down if not done properly.

Sure, but it's also not that hard to learn how to do electrical work at or above normal workmanlike standards.  I've done electrical work before (mostly on my office), but nothing requiring permits and inspections.  It wasn't that bad.  Don't be a doofus and you're fine.  And take the time to do the work cleanly.  Sure, random electrical contractors will pull a braid of wires and route them, but it really doesn't take too much longer to make them neat and tidy.

Given that NEC is an absurdly conservative, "belt and suspenders and staple it too" sort of fire prevention code, it's unlikely that you'd have problems with something that passes inspections and is done competently.

Does it take time to learn?  Sure.  Did it save me on the order of $40k for my system?  Yup.

Quote
2. How comfortable are you with punching holes in your roof (assuming a roof mounted system) and then making those holes completely watertight?

More comfortable than I am with some random contractor in a hurry... though obviously not an issue with my ground mount either.

Any concerns/issues with having solar panels on top of concrete/slate tile roofing btw? I'm tempted to look into setting up a small solar array in the yard but honestly there's not much yard space. The roof of the place we're in escrow on is concrete/slate tile but supposedly needs some repair work (I'm having a roofing contractor come out to assess to double-check this)

I believe the concrete tiles are a royal pain to work with and like to break even if you just walk around on them.

You could do a raised solar array as a porch, or awning sort of covering.  It'll require deeper footings if you elevate it, but plenty of things are quite happy in the partial shade of a solar array.

Do most of you guys end up getting enough credits to nearly zero out your electric bills month over month from your arrays?

My solar went online in early Nov, which is right at the start of winter.  I ran the meter forward 3100 kWh (paying for that), then started rolling back.  I passed zero a couple days ago and continue to roll backwards, so with my grandfathered agreement, I shouldn't have more than the $5 base fee a month for the next 25 years.  Not half bad.

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2021, 04:14:36 PM »
1. How comfortable are you with electrical and the national electric code?  You need to really know what you're doing with solar.  This isn't a project you do without permits.  If you're not comfortable pulling your own permits and doing everything to code, you shouldn't be doing this project.  While solar isn't fundamentally complicated, it has the potential to kill someone or burn your house down if not done properly.

Sure, but it's also not that hard to learn how to do electrical work at or above normal workmanlike standards.  I've done electrical work before (mostly on my office), but nothing requiring permits and inspections.  It wasn't that bad.  Don't be a doofus and you're fine.  And take the time to do the work cleanly.  Sure, random electrical contractors will pull a braid of wires and route them, but it really doesn't take too much longer to make them neat and tidy.

Given that NEC is an absurdly conservative, "belt and suspenders and staple it too" sort of fire prevention code, it's unlikely that you'd have problems with something that passes inspections and is done competently.

Does it take time to learn?  Sure.  Did it save me on the order of $40k for my system?  Yup.

Quote
2. How comfortable are you with punching holes in your roof (assuming a roof mounted system) and then making those holes completely watertight?

More comfortable than I am with some random contractor in a hurry... though obviously not an issue with my ground mount either.

Any concerns/issues with having solar panels on top of concrete/slate tile roofing btw? I'm tempted to look into setting up a small solar array in the yard but honestly there's not much yard space. The roof of the place we're in escrow on is concrete/slate tile but supposedly needs some repair work (I'm having a roofing contractor come out to assess to double-check this)

I believe the concrete tiles are a royal pain to work with and like to break even if you just walk around on them.

You could do a raised solar array as a porch, or awning sort of covering.  It'll require deeper footings if you elevate it, but plenty of things are quite happy in the partial shade of a solar array.

Do most of you guys end up getting enough credits to nearly zero out your electric bills month over month from your arrays?

My solar went online in early Nov, which is right at the start of winter.  I ran the meter forward 3100 kWh (paying for that), then started rolling back.  I passed zero a couple days ago and continue to roll backwards, so with my grandfathered agreement, I shouldn't have more than the $5 base fee a month for the next 25 years.  Not half bad.

What are your thoughts on Tesla solar roofing (not panels)? BTW: I figure your sentiments about Tesla are still the same (haha) but the idea behind the roof itself seems intriguing to me. Are there other companies/alternatives as far as solar roofing material is concerned?

There is supposedly some damage to the roof of home we're in escrow on but according to the report the seller provided it's minor. If, by chance, it happens to be more extensive though, I'm wondering if it might be worth just installing a new with different type of material that would be more 'solar friendly' - I know you were saying that putting panels on the roof isn't the *best* thing to do since it there can be issues with the roof (durability/lastability) itself in the future but *if* you had to do this because there wasn't really much space elsewhere, how would you go about it and what material roofing would you suggest installing panels on/over?

Now that I think about it I believe we would perhaps have some space to build an covered patio and put probably a smaller array of panels on top of it.

Based on the https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ calculator, they size out a 4kw array which apparently uses 269sq ft - that's a pretty large area but this might translate to a 8-9' deep patio cover that's around 33' long. That doesn't seem unreasonable. If we built something like that and installed panels on it, they would be facing SW'ish (and at an angle I think) and this would likely cover whatever electricity usage there is in a given month according to the calculator.

What would you think something like that might cost for a contractor to build out (patio cover + panel install)? I'm guessing you'd probably want the same contractor to do both?

EDIT - quickly googled it and see this: "How Much Do Solar Patio Covers Cost? It costs about $15 to $25 per foot to build a cover and about $3.0 per watt to install solar panels on a patio cover."
So a 269sq ft patio cover would cost probably around $6500-7000 to build out. And then $12k to install the panels on top of it. So I think a fair ballpark figure might be $20k minus any rebates there are? Other factor of course is how much load the patio can bear... so that might drive the pricing up too

This is making me think really hard about putting something up, with all the savings there are.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 04:24:55 PM by jeromedawg »

boarder42

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2021, 04:16:17 PM »
I hired a pro to do the roof but bought all the panels myself. Ended up at 19k pre rebates for a 10kw system. https://www.reddit.com/r/SolarDIY/comments/d778sv/i_saved_16000_on_my_solar_install_by_buying/

Followed this thread for the most part. Ended up with about a 12k cost after local and fed rebates. Should have an roi between 15 and 17% where I live.  Tandem solar was cheaper than wholesale for me as per one of the first comments in the thread

jeromedawg

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2021, 04:37:31 PM »
I hired a pro to do the roof but bought all the panels myself. Ended up at 19k pre rebates for a 10kw system. https://www.reddit.com/r/SolarDIY/comments/d778sv/i_saved_16000_on_my_solar_install_by_buying/

Followed this thread for the most part. Ended up with about a 12k cost after local and fed rebates. Should have an roi between 15 and 17% where I live.  Tandem solar was cheaper than wholesale for me as per one of the first comments in the thread

Forgive my ignorance but how does it work in terms of you generating enough power to end up putting it back on the grid. Does the local power company end up *paying* you back like via checks/ACH deposits!?

EDIT - ok, so I see there's net metering (in most states, including here in CA) where you're just offsetting kwh usage but likely you'll still pay a base service charge or whatever, and then there's FIT (TX and ID) where you can actually get paid $$$... is that about right? If this is the case, it seems like it's more important in net metering states to correctly size out your array to match your average usage because it doesn't seem like there's much benefit to you becoming a "solar power plant" and generating kwhs. Now if you were in TX or ID on the other hand, it seems like you might want to build out as big an array/farm as you possibly could haha (I don't know if there are restrictions/guidelines around this but I'd guess there probably are?).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 04:44:17 PM by jeromedawg »

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2021, 05:01:57 PM »
What are your thoughts on Tesla solar roofing (not panels)? BTW: I figure your sentiments about Tesla are still the same (haha) but the idea behind the roof itself seems intriguing to me. Are there other companies/alternatives as far as solar roofing material is concerned?

The idea is interesting, the execution is a bit unknown to me (I know some people who have it, but they just wrote the check and were annoyed by the construction noise, so I've no idea how it actually connects together), and repairability is a huge question to me.  I don't believe you can just replace a failed panel without tearing apart the roof, and I'm unclear as to how that impacts things (if it just takes out that panel's production or if it impacts a whole string).  It's a lot of pieces put in a very hot environment, as the roof doesn't have much in the way of airflow around it like panels typically do.  But that's just crazy "I care about being able to fix stuff" talk.

I know they're pretty sensitive to roof flatness - moreso than most other roof options.  They look wrong if the roof has waves in it, which is more common than a lot of people like to admit, especially on not-brand-new construction.

But mostly, I hear a lot of squirming around the price aspect - "Well, see, it's an expensive roof type to replace in the first place, and it makes you money, so... if you squint really hard, it's an amazing deal..." sort of stuff.  I don't play in the housing realms that use anything other than metal or asphalt shingles, so I'm not sure how to evaluate that.  If the roof really is that expensive, OK, but it feels to me like a lot of "I have to justify this because it's Tesla and Good and Green and I just wrote a $100k check."

I put my house information in (2000 sq ft, single story) their design tool, and it helpfully informed me that the roof alone is $61,625 (plus you have to buy Powerwalls with it).  That's not half of what we paid for the house (double wide manufactured on a foundation), but it's getting awfully close to half (not that the roof would support that sort of thing anyway).  That rather substantially exceeds the cost of even the obscene estimates for rooftop solar I got.  I could do a roof install for... oh, 10kWh, $15k or so on the house, if I did it myself as a roof mount.

But it's a space I just don't play in.  Drop a couple million on us, we wouldn't upgrade homes, we like what we have.

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... but *if* you had to do this because there wasn't really much space elsewhere, how would you go about it and what material roofing would you suggest installing panels on/over?

If you've got concrete or tiles or something, I really have no useful advice.  Sorry.  I know shingles and metal.  The best option if you can do it would be standing seam metal, because you can mount the rails to that sort of roof without any additional penetrations - it clamps to the standing seams.  I've no idea if your roof supports that, and metal roofs tend to be a bit louder in the weather than other options.

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What would you think something like that might cost for a contractor to build out (patio cover + panel install)? I'm guessing you'd probably want the same contractor to do both?

A... contractor?  What's that? :p  I used one to put in a retaining wall, knowing they'd break their equipment on our rock, which they certainly did, but in terms of a solar patio, I have no idea where one would even start.  I'd probably talk to a local structural engineer to find out what I had to do, then figure out a clean way to install bifacial panels - that would let some sun through and look properly slick.

Forgive my ignorance but how does it work in terms of you generating enough power to end up putting it back on the grid. Does the local power company end up *paying* you back like via checks/ACH deposits!?

It depends on your local power company.  Mine never will.

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... and then there's FIT (TX and ID) where you can actually get paid $$$... is that about right?

Idaho has no feed in tariff, at least not in my area.  I'm not aware of any such thing here.

Quote
Now if you were in TX or ID on the other hand, it seems like you might want to build out as big an array/farm as you possibly could haha (I don't know if there are restrictions/guidelines around this but I'd guess there probably are?).

Some areas restrict your array to your average production.  My restriction was based on the transformer on our pole, which was an oddly undersized 15kVA.  After some discussions, they accepted that they'd somehow missed that a new house was put on the lot, with new service, at a new address, with a new meter, etc, and that it had 200A service.  So I've got a 25kVA now, which means I could put up to 25kW STC of panel.

boarder42

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2021, 07:04:36 PM »
I hired a pro to do the roof but bought all the panels myself. Ended up at 19k pre rebates for a 10kw system. https://www.reddit.com/r/SolarDIY/comments/d778sv/i_saved_16000_on_my_solar_install_by_buying/

Followed this thread for the most part. Ended up with about a 12k cost after local and fed rebates. Should have an roi between 15 and 17% where I live.  Tandem solar was cheaper than wholesale for me as per one of the first comments in the thread

Forgive my ignorance but how does it work in terms of you generating enough power to end up putting it back on the grid. Does the local power company end up *paying* you back like via checks/ACH deposits!?

EDIT - ok, so I see there's net metering (in most states, including here in CA) where you're just offsetting kwh usage but likely you'll still pay a base service charge or whatever, and then there's FIT (TX and ID) where you can actually get paid $$$... is that about right? If this is the case, it seems like it's more important in net metering states to correctly size out your array to match your average usage because it doesn't seem like there's much benefit to you becoming a "solar power plant" and generating kwhs. Now if you were in TX or ID on the other hand, it seems like you might want to build out as big an array/farm as you possibly could haha (I don't know if there are restrictions/guidelines around this but I'd guess there probably are?).

Too many people thing you build a self contained system. Unless you're really going off grid or you don't have net metering batteries make no sense. The grid is your storage device. Put in when over produce pull out on the other side. Most net metering only offsets what you consume at the retail rate. Once yourlve offset what you consume you start getting generator rates which around here work out to about 2.5c per kwh. You want to size the system for your house so you're only over producing slightly in shoulder seasons.

Ripple4

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2021, 07:17:37 AM »
Here is another thought, if this new house your dealing with does not have a good place for solar to be installed or its too much to bite off now, you might still lower your bill with a home battery and leverage a time-of-use billing plan. Nothing about that prevents you from adding solar later then. Many people do not realize that in California there is so much solar that 10's of gigawatts are curtailed per day in some parts of the year, literally thrown away (http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/ManagingOversupply.aspx). So adding more solar panels and put it in the grid without a battery may not help (climate change, and cost savings wise) as much as we may have been lead to believe, in your specific location. This is maybe one reason why AB1139 is working its way into law in California, in one form or another. AB1139 will reduce the rate that grid-tie solar is incentivized, so these very generous legacy solar plans we see here are not the future new installations will be very different. But if we could soak up cheaper (utility generated solar) power from the grid between 10am and 4pm with off-peak TOU-B plan rates (if eligible) and then burn it up between 4pm and 9pm you'll pay half the cost per KWh. (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-B.pdf) and you'll actually be helping reduce the huge demand spike CAISO has around 6-8pm, which is met in large part with fossil peaker plants and out-of-state fossil generated imports.


http://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.aspx


Quote from: boarder42
The grid is your storage device.


(referencing off-grid, with fall-back)
Quote from: Syonyk
but it's also no real way to keep a power grid operational long term if more than a handful of people do it.

My comment about using the gird as a battery is that is not how I understand it to be working in the macro scale. How I see it works is that grid-tie solar without battery (in SO-CAL, and other saturated markets) wastes power during day when the utility is curtailing their own very cost-effective solar to make room on the grid for uncontrolled generators. Then when the sun sets those same uncontrolled generators use fossil power, not saved up solar power. In my opinion, that's what's not sustainable. Once the mid-day solar saturation point is reached any additional grid-tie without battery would not be better.  Whereas if everyone just used less all the time but especially during peak times, it would be. my comments are stopping short of a virtual power plant or some kind of coordinated use of distributed generation, that will be a game changer as pointed out earlier.

boarder42

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2021, 09:15:49 AM »
Here is another thought, if this new house your dealing with does not have a good place for solar to be installed or its too much to bite off now, you might still lower your bill with a home battery and leverage a time-of-use billing plan. Nothing about that prevents you from adding solar later then. Many people do not realize that in California there is so much solar that 10's of gigawatts are curtailed per day in some parts of the year, literally thrown away (http://www.caiso.com/informed/Pages/ManagingOversupply.aspx). So adding more solar panels and put it in the grid without a battery may not help (climate change, and cost savings wise) as much as we may have been lead to believe, in your specific location. This is maybe one reason why AB1139 is working its way into law in California, in one form or another. AB1139 will reduce the rate that grid-tie solar is incentivized, so these very generous legacy solar plans we see here are not the future new installations will be very different. But if we could soak up cheaper (utility generated solar) power from the grid between 10am and 4pm with off-peak TOU-B plan rates (if eligible) and then burn it up between 4pm and 9pm you'll pay half the cost per KWh. (https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-B.pdf) and you'll actually be helping reduce the huge demand spike CAISO has around 6-8pm, which is met in large part with fossil peaker plants and out-of-state fossil generated imports.


http://www.caiso.com/todaysoutlook/pages/supply.aspx


Quote from: boarder42
The grid is your storage device.


(referencing off-grid, with fall-back)
Quote from: Syonyk
but it's also no real way to keep a power grid operational long term if more than a handful of people do it.

My comment about using the gird as a battery is that is not how I understand it to be working in the macro scale. How I see it works is that grid-tie solar without battery (in SO-CAL, and other saturated markets) wastes power during day when the utility is curtailing their own very cost-effective solar to make room on the grid for uncontrolled generators. Then when the sun sets those same uncontrolled generators use fossil power, not saved up solar power. In my opinion, that's what's not sustainable. Once the mid-day solar saturation point is reached any additional grid-tie without battery would not be better.  Whereas if everyone just used less all the time but especially during peak times, it would be. my comments are stopping short of a virtual power plant or some kind of coordinated use of distributed generation, that will be a game changer as pointed out earlier.

This is a short term problem mainly that will only affect ultra high use solar areas like California. Batteries are reaching the tipping point in a couple years and youll have battery/solar and wind supplant most all generation in the next decade or so. Look at the Australia battery and how much it offset the peakers.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2021, 04:32:07 PM »
Combined solar generation curves from my system for a clean day recently.

This is "actual production" - curves represent the different frames.  The east and west frame are broadly similar, except for the "cuts" in the morning and evening that are when they're shading each other.  The east frame is physically higher because of ground level, so the morning cut is larger than the evening cut, but this works out fine in terms of production.  Evening demand on the grid exceeds morning demand.



If I scale the 6 south panels up by 4x to reflect the 24 panels on each frame, if they were pointed south, you get something like this:



Daily production between those curves is actually about identical, but the east-west panels produce far longer, and have less of a mid-day peak when grid demand tends low anyway (at least until it gets hot out here).

Just in case anyone was curious.

nereo

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2021, 04:36:02 PM »
Count me as curious - thanks for posting those.

joenorm

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2021, 07:44:27 PM »
You can put panels on any type of roof. They make a mount for everything. Don't let people tell you this is not a DIY project. You'll just have to spend the time doing the research if you really want to do it. All the information is out there and some electrical supply houses carry all the parts.

Fishindude

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2021, 07:34:34 AM »
You can put panels on any type of roof. They make a mount for everything. Don't let people tell you this is not a DIY project. You'll just have to spend the time doing the research if you really want to do it. All the information is out there and some electrical supply houses carry all the parts.

Anytime you mount something to a roof, it requires fasteners through the roof membrane, into the structure and some type of sealant or gasket to prevent a leak at that point.    An array of panels will take a whole bunch of these penetrations.   Each penetration is a potential leak, and as the panels and building move around with wind loads, thermal expansion and contraction, etc. those sealants can and do fail, causing roof leaks.

Further, roof replacement in the future gets much more difficult and expensive since panels have to be removed / reinstalled also.   It's also a crummy /dangerous place to access panels if you ever want to clean them and / or perform any maintenance.   Put them on a rack in the yard.   Never put anything on your roof that doesn't need to be there.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2021, 10:11:45 AM »
Put them on a rack in the yard.   Never put anything on your roof that doesn't need to be there.

Lots of people don't have room in the yard, but, yes.  I agree.

You can also avoid the per panel electronics on a ground mount, at least for now.  Though one of my east facing panels on the east string appears to have a bad diode and I'm not sure which one it is.  I suppose I should rent an IR camera and take a look, those show up as panel temperature differences.

Fishindude

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2021, 10:19:44 AM »
Lots of people don't have room in the yard, but, yes.  I agree.


That still doesn't justify putting solar panels on your roof.   If you don't have space in the yard, do without.
In most cases, there are plenty of other options around the home for saving energy, rather than solar panels being the only solution.

GuitarStv

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2021, 02:34:06 PM »
Lots of people don't have room in the yard, but, yes.  I agree.


That still doesn't justify putting solar panels on your roof.   If you don't have space in the yard, do without.
In most cases, there are plenty of other options around the home for saving energy, rather than solar panels being the only solution.

YMMV.  If I had followed this advice, I wouldn't have solar panels on my roof that have fully paid for themselves and have an expected at least 12 years of life left.

Syonyk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2021, 02:46:34 PM »
YMMV.  If I had followed this advice, I wouldn't have solar panels on my roof that have fully paid for themselves and have an expected at least 12 years of life left.

This is one of those "down the road" problems.  Sealants, gaskets, etc, tend to work fine for 10 years, but what's their behavior in 20-30 years of roof levels of heat?

Also, whatever subsidies you've had access to are mostly going away.  My array, even DIY, isn't a huge slam dunk in terms of ROI.  In 25 years, it's likely to generate less than market returns, assuming they continue doing what they've been doing.  It's just one of the many ways I'm trying to reduce my required long term expenses, regardless of how things go (and it's a fairly easy conversion to an off grid power system, conveniently enough).

I've certainly seen some rooftop installs that make very little sense.  Some are fine, but it's reasonable to be cautious about punching a ton of holes in roofs.

joenorm

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2021, 06:35:43 PM »
You can put panels on any type of roof. They make a mount for everything. Don't let people tell you this is not a DIY project. You'll just have to spend the time doing the research if you really want to do it. All the information is out there and some electrical supply houses carry all the parts.

Anytime you mount something to a roof, it requires fasteners through the roof membrane, into the structure and some type of sealant or gasket to prevent a leak at that point.    An array of panels will take a whole bunch of these penetrations.   Each penetration is a potential leak, and as the panels and building move around with wind loads, thermal expansion and contraction, etc. those sealants can and do fail, causing roof leaks.

Further, roof replacement in the future gets much more difficult and expensive since panels have to be removed / reinstalled also.   It's also a crummy /dangerous place to access panels if you ever want to clean them and / or perform any maintenance.   Put them on a rack in the yard.   Never put anything on your roof that doesn't need to be there.

A properly flashed roof penetration does not leak. Sealant is typically used only as a secondary backup to aluminum flashing. Not to mention a standing seam metal roof which require NO penetrations besides for the wiring conduit. But it sounds like the OP has tile in this case.
If you have good exposure, the best place for solar is on the roof. It is space efficient and the structure is already there. Solar panels typically need very little servicing.

nereo

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2021, 04:57:39 AM »
Often completely ignored - solar mounted onto a standing seam metal roof does not involve any penetrations; around here they make up the majority of new roofs and roughly half of all existing roofs. 

Also, both my solar installler (which has been in business for 15+ years) and my homeowners covers damage from my solar install.

I’m not going to argue that ground-mounted solar isn’t a wonderful option if you have the location for it.  But IMO the benefits far outweigh the risk. 

chemistk

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2021, 06:05:24 AM »
PTF, we're under contract for a house that has 11 year old (fully paid for) roof mounted panels, looking forward to small utility costs but also need to get educated on them.

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2021, 06:26:55 AM »
I've looked into the steel roofing with the trapezoid rail feet, these feet still need through hole fasteners but that sit on the ridges so it seems like a better option than asphalt and flat tab feet. I bet exposed fastener bright white steel roofing and bifacial panels would be a good way to go, if aesthetics were not the main concern. double the roof life and twin glass panels should last a really long time. If the NEC2017 rapid shutdown reforms go though which will revert to NEC2014 array level, then I'll be looking at this combo. The issues that I've seen documented in YouTube videos with poor performing asphalt installs (excluding micro inverter failures) seems to be related to poor cable management (wires rubbing on shingle granules) combined with animal damage.

Fishindude

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2021, 06:58:33 AM »
A properly flashed roof penetration does not leak. Sealant is typically used only as a secondary backup to aluminum flashing. Not to mention a standing seam metal roof which require NO penetrations besides for the wiring conduit. But it sounds like the OP has tile in this case.
If you have good exposure, the best place for solar is on the roof. It is space efficient and the structure is already there. Solar panels typically need very little servicing.

90% Of roof leaks occur at penetrations, odds are much higher of a leak to occur here, ask any roofer.
Standing seam roofs only make up a small percentage of the residential roof market.  They "can" have things mounted to them without penetrations if they are true vertical seam SSR, and if one purchases the expensive S-5 fasteners to clip to the ribs. 
Tile is about the worst kind of roof to make penetrations' through leak free.

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2021, 08:34:46 AM »
If the NEC2017 rapid shutdown reforms go though which will revert to NEC2014 array level, then I'll be looking at this combo.

Do you have a source on this?  It would revert to array level shutdown only, not the 80V per panel voltage?  I thought 2020 was going to be adding additional rapid shutdown requirements, not revert Enphase's little handout.

Ripple4

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Re: DIY Solar panel roof install?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2021, 09:55:15 AM »
If the NEC2017 rapid shutdown reforms go though which will revert to NEC2014 array level, then I'll be looking at this combo.

Do you have a source on this?  It would revert to array level shutdown only, not the 80V per panel voltage?  I thought 2020 was going to be adding additional rapid shutdown requirements, not revert Enphase's little handout.

you are certainly correct that NEC2020 will keep the 1 foot and the intra-array 80v rule. Maybe I should have more clear that these are 'outside' reform efforts, I was referring to fixmlsd. https://www.fixmlsd.com/ If these guys are unsuccessful, maybe someone else will help with reforms. I wonder how much of the NEC is industry lobby to sell more stuff, how much is to mitigate misplaced fear about new things, and how much is common sense safety. Also, as far as I can tell 10 states are still on NEC2014 or earlier anyway. (https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/NEC-adoption-and-use/NEC-adoption-maps) so even if the current rules ever did change, then whose to say the AHJs would not just keep NEC20xx or whatever.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!